Thinking About Leaving? How About You....

[Dutchy]

Source: http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Weekly/weekly143.html

Is The Party Really Over?

Deciding to uproot your whole life from one country to another is one ###### of a big deal, but hundreds of thousands of us have done it, Thailand our choice for a new, better lifestyle. While it is hard to ever look too far into the future, many moved to Thailand with the feeling that they were going somewhere as close to perfect as they could find, a return to their corner of Farangland never entering their mind. But more than any time that I can remember, Westerners are leaving Thailand and unlike in the late 90s when many were essentially forced to leave due to the economic situation, many Westerners are now choosing to leave.

One friend who I have immense respect for has commented to me on numerous occasions how the city has grown up and has become more cosmopolitan. Despite this, he doesn't feel it is the best environment for his young'un. Describing the locals as lazy, uneducated and arrogant, he has also made a few less than favourable comments about the institutionalized corruption. He simply feels that his part of Farangland can offer his family a better place to raise a family than Thailand can. He has spent more time in Thailand each year than he does in his homeland for many years, but that looks set to reverse.

A workmate often talks about how the locals increase his blood pressure to the point that it affects his overall health and how they continue to exasperate him with what he feels is their perpetual dishonesty. He has a nice life here, but is planning his escape, with hopes of returning to North America before too long.

Another workmate said to me just a few days ago that he is probably going to return to South Korea, where he worked before he came to Thailand. He never really liked Seoul but says that Bangkok is slowly driving him crazy. Fed up at being treated as a second class citizen, he described the South Koreans as "a better class of peasant than this lot". In what I thought may have been even harsher, he said that the Thais increasing arrogance needed to be brought back down to earth and another crash a la 1997 would make them more bearable. Unsure whether he was joking or not, he said that such a crash might be the only thing that would convince him to stay.

Another friend recently told me of his fascination with Malaysia, a place he has been spending more and more time. He commented that Kuala Lumpur is much more beautiful, easier to get around, less polluted and the people are friendlier. And perhaps the big one for so many foreigners it seems these days - he claims that the people are much more honest. He feels that Thailand has changed and that Malaysia offers a very viable alternative. He also cites the far easier visa rules, the cheaper property prices and the fact that KL is more civilised as his reasons for seriously considering relocation down there.

It is not just friends of mine. I have been surprised at the number of readers who have emailed, explaining their decisions to leave Thailand. Most have had negative things to say about the locals, and more than a few have commented that more than ever, they are given less and less respect by Thai people, and feel that they are seen as a soft target for the Thais to exploit.

I have given it all a lot of thought and no, I don't think it is a case of me knowing a bunch of negative people, or that the situations here are from a small group who are all at that point when they feel that they have had enough of Thailand and it is time to move on. The people mentioned here have been in Thailand for varying lengths of time, from 3 to 15 years. Some are married, others are not. A couple spend time in the bars, the others wouldn't dream of it. More than ever before, there seems to be really strong disenchantment with Thailand from many Western residents.

What about me? Are Mrs Stick and I about to join the hordes of Westerners choosing to leave Thailand? For now, no. I'll be the first to admit that living in Thailand can at times be very stressful and many of the little things that bother can all add up to really annoy you. But there are certain things that one can do to reduce the problem and in many ways, insulate yourselves from them. Learning the language to a high level and being very choosy about your friends help. More so than in the West, I think one needs a decent income here too. Spending a bit more and not doing everything on the cheap eliminates many of the problems.

In the case of Mrs Stick and I, I think NZ has grown up sufficiently in the time that I have been away that we could have a very pleasant life back there indeed. But for now, Thailand continues to provide us with what we want, even if it at times it can be a frustrating place to live for both of us. Yes, those Thais who are truly honest will readily admit that some things here are a bit screwed up.

I continue to maintain that Thailand is the best place for a holiday, but this is altogether different from it being the best place to live. One has to consider very carefully what one wants from life. Thailand may well provide that, but then again, it might not. One thing is for sure, many Westerners are choosing to leave Thailand in greater numbers than I have ever seen before. Whether this is a short term thing or the start of a long term trend, only time will tell.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions

Cheers,

Dutchy

[pnustedt]

For some the grass will always be greener on the other side! I have a number of friends from UK who never really settled and wanted to go back. You can usually spot them, always converting Baht into Pounds, even though they are learning the language, they never really get out of the UK mindset.

Their prejudices are reinforced by the 'stupid' things that go on in their new home and what was initially a novelty and an attraction becomes an irritation, this builds and frustrates the h3ll out of them. They just cannot relax and the best thing is for them to go 'home'.

However, some who have returned home have then belatedly realised that maybe they should have stayed put and lived thru' it - the reasons they initially decided to emigrate are still there.

I think the issue is more difficult when young children are involved and would urge anyone in that situation to think very seriously before embarking on such a move.

[peteypie]

Yes Dutchy, I'm not thinking about it, I'm making the arrangements now! I've had an interesting four years here and would have liked to have stayed longer. However, as we all know, things are changing and the old nationalism and xenophobia are creeping in at an alarming rate. This isn't to say that they don't exist elsewhere but elsewhere there is usually a vocal and well organised opposition party to counter balance any excesses. Sadly, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any such thing on the horizon. What we are experiencing now, may be the thin end of the wedge should our great leader secure a further term in office. Luckily, I haven't sunk all my savings into this country like other members of this forum have, I can pack a bag and walk away and put it all down to experience. An interesting and revealing experience I might add, that has shown the huge differences in cultural values, social priorities, and thrown light onto the over used expressions third and first world countries. Someone should point out to our great leader that it really isn't about wealth, power and prestige, it's about honesty, compassion and self sacrifice. So, I'm off in search of the latter three things, as I can't seem to find any here. For those who stay, or for those who are unable to make that leap into the unknown, good luck, you may need it.

[Dah fahrang]

So Thailand is becoming what the UK became some years back, then.

But still cheaper and warmer.......

[morphic]

Several of my best friends are wealthy and looking for a place to retire early, away from the rat race. A couple of years ago I would have recommended Thailand as it provided a good lifestyle at excellent value for money. But now I wouldn't recommend it at all and I now also limit my stays to short trips only, spending far less money than I once did. I agree that many Thai's have become unbearably rude and arrogant, utterly obsessed with squeezing every last baht from whatever they are doing. I am also tired of the dishonesty and the feeling of being unwanted, apart of course of my money. I have already voted with my feet, and I imagine many others like me, if they have a real choice, will do the same.

[Sunbelt Asia]

For many Thailand is still a wonderland. Yes people are leaving like any country but many more are arriving in Thailand to take their place. Many who are working for big multi-nationals (who are relocating top mgrs to Thailand).... right now at a record pace, I will add.

[samran]

I agree that many Thai's have become unbearably rude and arrogant, utterly obsessed with squeezing every last baht from whatever they are doing.

hmmmmm, what other nationality can we apply broad generalisations to and get away with?

To be honest, I'd prefer to be unbearably rude and arrogant, utterly obsessed with squeezing every last baht (or dollar or pound) from whatever I do, rather than bending over and taking it up the clacker from anyone (regardless of nationality!)

[cdnvic]

I think it depends alot on where you are and what you focus on. If you spend alot of time in tourist areas then the begger mentality that sees us as walking wallets with no brains can get to you. I don't get this in my own neighborhood, where I'm one of the only forgieners. As for the dishonesty, yes its here but in a different form than I see back in Canada. I regularly leave things in my motorcycle's basket when I park it yet I've never once had anything stolen. In Canada I'd be worried about the whole bike going missing to feed some junkie's drug habit. Interestingly enough, I see more beggars in Canada than I do here. When it comes to taking responsibility for mistakes, that is a big annoyance. I've seen few accidents that didn't have the at fault person (usually male) run away like a coward.

The "I don't care who dies as long as I get there first" attutude to driving gets to me definitly. If I could change anything here it would be that. I don't know if I should be relieved when driving that bhuddism frowns on causing harm to others, or scared to death that the guy trying to charge through the red light believes in reincarnation

Arrogance? yes, especially among the younger crowd with a bit of money. Sadly the country is moving away from it's tradition of being polite and friendly.

If you don't know the language it just makes it worse. You have a bad day and suddenly you imaging everything someone is saying is something bad about you and it makes you upset about imaginary things.

The flocks of losers who see the place as one big whorehouse don't do the rest of us any favours either in the image department. They give us just as bad an image here as the bargirls give Thailand abroad.

It all balances out though. In Canada I miss Thailand and vice versa.

Two guarranteed cures for being frustrated with the attitude of Thais though:

- Two days in Seoul

- 30 minutes in Tachileik

cv

[Bluecat]

If you were here BEFORE the 1997 Asian crisis (it is not that long ago,...), you would know that at that time, nothing could go bad. Far East Asia was on a roll and Thailand was the emerging tiger. The educated Thai people were changing job so often that any resume was too long for anybody to be able to read it from beginning to end. And as a consequence, IN BANGKOK, Thai people were thinking that western people were just losers and that they were the winners.

Anyway, at that time, Thai people IN BANGKOK were, by any standard, to be considered arrogant and a few other chosen adjectives,...

Came the crisis and the difficulties and everything changed for a while, western people were buying Thai companies and Thai people were "lower" profile in order, I would say, to try to get "money" or any other advantages from what they were considering again as the rich western people or companies (but their feelings about westerners did not change at all).

Now, we are back to some kind of booming times (in their mind at least), so they do not care anymore about showing their true feelings towards westerners again,...

Do you think farang people will leave for that? Maybe the ones who have been here for quite a short time but most probably not the ones who were here "before".

[davidm]

He commented that Kuala Lumpur is much more beautiful, easier to get around, less polluted and the people are friendlier. And perhaps the big one for so many foreigners it seems these days - he claims that the people are much more honest. He feels that Thailand has changed and that Malaysia offers a very viable alternative. He also cites the far easier visa rules, the cheaper property prices and the fact that KL is more civilised as his reasons for seriously considering relocation down there.

KL is a sh*t hole. It's ###### to get around. Malay taxi drivers often won't pick up white passengers. KL recently was voted the most unfriendly city in the world, and while it's probably a bit more amicable than downtown Mogadishu, that doesn't make it pleasant.

Accommodation is not cheaper. I saw a few dives that even heroin addicts would turn their noses up at going for the same rents as a nice pad in Bangkok. Entertainment: do you really want to queue for half an hour then pay 300 baht to get into a bar? Air pollution is worse, too. The only advantage Malaysia has to offer is in terms of food. I prefer the local cuisine to Thai food, and most imported goods are cheaper. Even wine is priced more sensibly. Visa rules are easier for short term visitors: 90 days on entry with no charge, but they start to question people after their second entry. Penang is a much better choice for those who want to try Malaysia.

[Axel]

It is always an up or down. I evaluate the situation, react anti-cyclic, and if it goes really wrong, I will be the last one here, folding up the side-walks and switch off the moon before leave.

Actually, I moved through too many countries, but believe I can survive even the present PM, what's his name again?

[Guest chingy]

For many Thailand is still a wonderland. Yes people are leaving like any country but many more are arriving in Thailand to take their place. Many who are working for big multi-nationals (who are relocating top mgrs to Thailand).... right now at a record pace, I will add.

an average joe will spend a baht for every 2 baht he own, and there are alots of joe

for mr. big shot, he will spend 1/2 a baht for every 10 thousand baht he make. he rather take it home, and there aren't to many big shot.

I agree that many Thai's have become unbearably rude and arrogant, utterly obsessed with squeezing every last baht from whatever they are doing.

don't blame the people blame the government, if the governement party is greedy the people will soon follow

If you were here BEFORE the 1997 Asian crisis (it is not that long ago,...), you would know that at that time, nothing could go bad. Far East Asia was on a roll and Thailand was the emerging tiger. The educated Thai people were changing job so often that any resume was too long for anybody to be able to read it from beginning to end. And as a consequence, IN BANGKOK, Thai people were thinking that western people were just losers and that they were the winners

have a few dollar doesn't mean you are a winner, it take century after century to develope the western world civilize, it take decade for Thai to develope the wealth, it take 2day for westerner to crumble you to the ground

[DaveYo]

A lot depends on what you do, on whom you associate with, on where you go in Thailand, and also what your main intent is being in Thailand.

Many think it is grandeur and relaxation and all the pooh pooh, but when reality begins to set in there goes your wonderful bubble.

Thailand is changing and right now it is swinging like the pendulum. It is having birth pangs and trying to make adjustments to get out of a certain status quo. Obviously the PM has made some bad blunders, which does set them back.

When one talks of greed it is everyplace in the world. Every single person wants to make that almighty dollar no matter what the cost will be, just as long they see the green in their hands. So listen up on the song called Money, Money Money!!! That almighty dollar!!!!! The dudes who sang this was telling the world just what they really are if you listen to the lyrics.

But racism is there to stay whether it is in Thailand or any other place in the world. One cannot satisfy everybody.

So either you buckle up your pants a notch or two tighter and when the kitchen starts to get hot one has to either take the crap and absorb it nicely or get out while you can.

The choices are up to each individual.

Daveyoti

[penelope]

Why even bother having to ponder whether or not to leave? My wife and I are grateful to be in the position to come and go between Sydney and Bangkok whenever we want and as frequently as we want. We maintain homes in both cities and if we feel like a bit of Thailand we fly back, if we feel like a bit of Aussie we fly back etc.. etc....

Air travel and communications have made the world so much smaller that this level of transientness is easily implemented.

[Dutchy]

Mr SunbeltAsia paints a fairly optimistic picture of Thailand in the hope it will positively affect his business. Thailand asked for more FDI from European countries such as Germany as they invested too little compared to other investments goals, not a sign that everything's going as planned. An American multinational withdrew its presence out of Thailand just last week. New workpermit laws do not promote the presence of farang in Thailand, it's estimated (There's an article out of the Phuket times somewhere on this board) that many foreigners will have to leave Thailand. I don't mind SunbeltAsia promoting its business, I do mind SunbeltAsia changing to the Thai way of doing business by lying and telling untruths to consumers.

Dutchy

[DaveYo]

Point well said Dutchy

Daveyoti

[utapaortnab]

Gentlemen,

I first arrived in Thailand while still in the U.S. Army at age 35. I was posted at U-Tapao Airbase and later in Sriracha. Lived in Pattaya Beach the whole year (1971-1972) and have returned almost every year since.

I have worked in, lived in, or visited/vacationed in 39 countries in my 67 years on this planet and other than my home country (USA) I love Thailand the best (Australia would be 2nd).

During my first year in Thailand, I envied those in the military who were the typical bulk of the military force stationed there (19-21 year olds) and thought what a great lifetime experience it must be for them to spend a year or more in Thailand.

From the day I completed my tour of duty in Thailand, I planned to return for good someday. I thought of Thailand as my absolute choice for my retirement years.

I would have liked to just moved to Thailand for good in 1972 when my tour was up. I think that many if not most "expat/farang tourists" in the age bracket of 19-59 would love to move to Thailand permanently but the major problem for the majority of those tourists is they do NOT have retirement incomes or savings that will support such a move.

Now, a better than 50% of the same expat/farang tourists over age 60 do have some sort of retirement income, stocks, savings or whatever that would allow them to retire permanently in Thailand BUT something happens to about 90% of those who could afford to do so.

#1 Sex is NOT the driving force that rules their every thought and decision.

#2 By this age, most have kids/grandkids that they do NOT want to be far distant from. Frequent visits with them MUST be considered and living nearby, or at least in the same country so flights or roadtrips to visit them are feasable.

#3 They are NOT as easily adaptable to the changes that MUST be adhered too in order to live in another country i.e. learning another language in order to fully appreciate life in that country, driving on the left hand side of the road, not having ALL the "comforts of home" readily available (300 channels of CCTV in English, DSL computer speeds, grocery stores that have all their favorite food products at reasonable prices, choice of over 20 first run movies at nearby theators, long time friends and neighbors to socialize with.

#4 Medical problems are a cause of concern, i.e. diabetes, heart problems, arthritis, cancer, or other major maladies cause them to NOT want to move to a foreign country. (Yes I know that Bangkok and Pattaya Beach hospitals are probably as good as those in most cities in the U.S. and other 1st world countries).

For us (my wife is from Chiayaphum Thailand which is one of the reasons why we still plan yearly visits to LOS) and even though I do NOT drink or smoke and never butterfly, I still enjoy our one month visits.

I would like to hear from all others who agree or disagree with my take on this.

Ken Bower

San Antonio Texas

Visiting Pattaya Beach since 1971

http://homepage.mac.com/mgnewman/KenLat/

[davidm]

Why even bother having to ponder whether or not to leave? My wife and I are grateful to be in the position to come and go between Sydney and Bangkok whenever we want and as frequently as we want. We maintain homes in both cities and if we feel like a bit of Thailand we fly back, if we feel like a bit of Aussie we fly back etc.. etc....

Air travel and communications have made the world so much smaller that this level of transientness is easily implemented.

Let's be realistic. Most people can't do this either because it's too expensive or they have commitments which keep them in one place. That means you have to choose one place to stay. The original post asked whether Thailand was still attractive to expats. If you had to choose between Sydney and Bangkok, which would it be?

[bmanly]

I spend 6 Months a year in Sydney and 6 Months in Thailand. If I only have 2 choices Sydney or Bangkok then I would choose Sydney because I live on the beach (check my user name) and I think Bangkok is a dirty overcrowed place to live. Had you have said, Sydney and Krabi, Phuket, Pattaya or Chiang Mai I would choose the later 4.

To the topic, I have met several unhappy farangs in my travels but really it's how you the handle the problems. The moment I get off the plane I switch to the Thai way of thinking. If you understand how and why they do things then it is easier to live there. I try to learn as much of the language too. A lot of good blokes are looking at leaving, some are saying Cambodia is opening up and might be a good alternative. To the American gent, I agree Pattaya is still a good place to live, it is reasonably priced and you can get almost anything you need there. I like farang company at times too and this why I like to stay there.

I think the trick is to get out and about perhaps once a Month. I use Pattaya as my base (long term apartment rental) and travel to parts of Thailand or to other countries like Malaysia and Cambodia. Contrary to ingnorant beliefs Thailand is not a whorehouse, it happens in pockets of Thailand where it is open and blatent such as Pattaya and Patong Beach but in the norm it is usually more discrete and besides what country in the world does not have whorehouses.

Thailand is still a fun and interesting place and there are still a lot of good people there. As for Malaysia, well no wonder they give you 3 Month visas there for free because nobody wants to go there. My last visit was just a border run, I was there 30 Minutes and back to Krabi quick quick. Thailand is a far better place than Malaysia to live.

[Dutchy]

France's Orange may pull out of joint venture with TA

Published on Feb 9, 2004

TelecomAsia Corp Plc (TA) and the French-controlled telecom giant Orange will discuss plans to restructure the debt of their joint venture TA Orange before Orange decides whether it will exit the local business.

A source close to TA said that Orange could not pull out of its local cell phone joint venture until it and TA finish restructuring TA Orange's Bt30-billion debt, which is due next month.

There have been reports that Orange has tried to sell its share in TA Orange to local and foreign buyers.

"Under the loan conditions, both shareholders have to maintain the current share ownership in TA Orange until the debt is due and restructured," the source added. After that both are expected to discuss Orange's future in Thailand, he said.

TA Orange chief executive Supachai Chearavanont has not been available to comment on the matter.

TA holds 43.9 per cent in TA Orange, while Orange has 49 per cent. TA's parent firm Charoen Pokphand holds the remainder.

The source added that Orange has become less active in TA Orange. It has not sent a new executive to fill the post of chief operating officer since Jamie Heywood's term ended last year. Heywood has already returned to Orange. The post is under the quota assigned to Orange according to the joint management agreement with TA.

TA Orange debuted in Thailand two years ago with capital of Bt24 billion and now has 1.8 million customers. It lost Bt1.69 billion in the third quarter of last year.

TA Orange took out a Bt28.2-billion syndicated loan in February 2002, most of which came from 14 local banks, to extend its network coverage.

A local telecom analyst said that TA Orange is expected to ask for new loans from the current creditors to refinance the debt, instead of raising funds to repay the amount, since Orange shows no sign of injecting more cash into its Thai venture.

Last year the French-controlled firm announced it would focus solely on the European market.

After the refinancing, TA Orange plans to list on the stock market to raise further funds.

A source close to TA Orange said that if Orange pulls out, TA would have to decide whether it would keep the Orange brand or replace it with its own corporate True brand. TA plans to rename itself True Corporation during its second quarter.

Telecom Reporters

THE NATION

[KenUdon]

I don't mind SunbeltAsia promoting its business, I do mind SunbeltAsia changing to the Thai way of doing business by lying and telling untruths to consumers.

Absolutely right. This board should be for information, and not propoganda! Sponsor or not, keep to the facts please!

As for me, well, I have already taken the plunge, and am in a new country. It is early days, but the signs in my opinion are not good in Thailand, and I can see it getting worse there. In my time, the arrogance of the people has increased in proportion to the arrogance of its leader, which is saying something!

To all the people who usually answer a topic on this subject by "if you don't like it...LEAVE"...well I have, and so far, it is better for me. It's not a question of is it better than UK or Usa or Aus, or NZ it's a question of a better place to live the lifestyle that I want, in a place that is perhaps more welcoming than Thailand has become.

I will give it more time here to find out if it really is the place for me, and will maybe do a report for anyone interested in an alternative to the overly nationalistic Thailand that we now see.

[DaveYo]

From what I read on the TA Orange, this does not bode well for its economics, being over a Billion Baht in debt and nearly 2 Billion. Whew.

According to this report it seems now they want to head for the stock market to drum up some cash flow, which I think most investors will be very wary looking at the numbers being the debt that they owe. I got a feeling that this company is heading for the bricks quite soon, and even with a new name change I don't think it will help at all.

With this on top of the Bird Flu Oh Oh!!!!!!!

Daveyoti

[mrentoul]

I don't mind SunbeltAsia promoting its business, I do mind SunbeltAsia changing to the Thai way of doing business by lying and telling untruths to consumers.

You go too far. Sunbelt has posted some outstanding stuff here recently about Thai wage rates - factual to a T, and free!

Lying, untruths...you are no stranger to exaggeration yourself.

[bmanly]

To all the people who usually answer a topic on this subject by "if you don't like it...LEAVE"...well I have, and so far, it is better for me. It's not a question of is it better than UK or Usa or Aus, or NZ it's a question of a better place to live the lifestyle that I want, in a place that is perhaps more welcoming than Thailand has become.

I will give it more time here to find out if it really is the place for me, and will maybe do a report for anyone interested in an alternative to the overly nationalistic Thailand that we now see.

Well out with it then Kenny where is this new place? I'm always looking to trying out somewhere new.

[Bluecat]

a better place to live the lifestyle that I want, in a place that is perhaps more welcoming than Thailand has become.

Yes, please tell us, where is that better place?

[the gentleman]

It is true the country is getting harder to live in and It is getting much the same, from what we all left, but I think as another poster has already said, it is good to get out for a while and then you do come back with a different perspective. I, like all expats here, get frustrated, but on the whole I think this country has a lot to offer. If you get out amongst the "real Thailand" once in a while, you dont see the same thing you do in the city areas.

I also think Sunbelt is biased in some posts as I dont think a bar is a good business from what I have seen, but in his defence, he is around this kind of business 24/7 and I would have to agree with him on the whole, as it is a great place to work and make money - I have had opportunitys here that I couldnt have had in my country, because of red tape. If you look at the American guy (I forget his name), that was a janitor and started the franchises for Pizza Hut, Burger King etc - that is a great story - my hat goes off to him. There is good and bad points about every country, but I still think you have great opportunitys here - although frustrating sometimes, I think the frustration is worth the outcome/income.

[syd barrett]

Eight reasons the Philippines is better than Thailand for the long stay visitor:

1. The people are much more friendly and speak English, once you get out of the main cities, all they want to do is talk, and they are very generous and not at all after your cash.

2. It is cheaper, perhaps to do with the peso weakness, but certainly cheaper.

3. Better beaches, altogether a more beautiful country, rice terraces, volcanos, tropical rain forest, 7,107 islands, excellent diving.

4. Good medical facilities available, and they will treat you without demanding money first which is the norm in Thailand. Recently a Turkish accident victim was left in agony whilst a police car blocked the passage of an ambulance to extort money!

5. More honest people, the Thais although they might not steal your motorcycle helmet are terribly dishonest, everything is a wall of lies, misinformation and double pricing and bull****. The women (of any age) are as bad as men for lies and untruths.

6. Sex and Relationships, both are better with Filipina women, if you marry one it is unlikely she already has a husband back up north, they are more sensible with money, take care of their husband/boyfriend better, a more honest woman all round.

7. Law and Order, in my experience any crime against foreigners is taken seriously by Filipino police. They are honoured to have you in their country and want to befriend you, they respect westerners. Thai police are probably the worst in the world, reports of petty crime are greeted with laughter.

8. Visas; no problem; 3 weeks free, two month advance tourist easy and cheap, extentions no problem upto a year, chest X ray and Doctors for one year plus extentions.

Yes, I'm leaving Thailand next month, for the Philippines. Thailand does have some great things to offer a tourist, but not so a long stay visitor, ALL my friends say the same, they have been here since the 'good old days' and they are all leaving and going to:

1. Cambodia

2. Philippines

3. Japan

4. Panama

I wish I had been here 15 years ago when I have heard (Thailand) was wonderful.

[the gentleman]

Syd, do you have any great websites for the Phillipines - similiar to this forum and general info on working and living etc.

Thanks in advance.

[davidm]

Here are 8 reasons not to relocate to the Philippines:-

1. Crime. Especially violent crime. This is a much bigger problem in the Philippines than in Thailand, and westerners make very tempting targets.

2. Corruption. Ferdinand Marcos and his successors make Dear Leader & Co liook like rank amateurs. Again, westerners make very tempting targets. You can even be sued by bar girls over there for making alleged insults.

3. The police are arguably the worst in Asia. Guess whose side they will take in a dispute between local and westerner?

4. Employment. It's very hard to get a job in a country where most of the locals speak English and are willing to work for 10% or less of what you would demand for the same job.

5. Pollution. Manilla is even worse than Bangkok.

6. Commuting. Again, traffic jams in Manilla are worse than Bangkok.

7. Economic instability. If you invest in the country, there is a much greater risk of everything going pear-shaped because the local economy collapses, or your investment devaluing along with the peso.

8. Political instability. Coups, insurrections and terrorism are facts of life in the Philippines.

The girls issue is a matter of individual preference. Having tried both, can't say Filipinas are better than Thais.

There has to be a better alternative to Thailand than the Philippines.

[KenUdon]

Well, was going to wait until I could do a full report before replying to this, but davidm's bullshit is too much to resist.

'His first 4 points are just that...bullshit.

1. Crime. Of course there is crime,the same as anywhere on the planet now. Tried walking down a London or New York or many Bangkok streets at night?? It seems to be no different here. Use your common sense and keep away from places you shouldnt be.

2. Corruption. Yeh right. So there isn't any corruption in Thailand. It is ingrained in ALL Asian countries from the bottom to the top - Thailand one of the worst!

3. The Police. So you can be assured of getting a fair deal as a foreigner in Thailand against a local in a dispute? Get Real!!

4. So it's really easy to get a job in Thailand is it? Have you EVER even been there? Makes me wonder!

Points 5 and 6. Totally subjective. Have you ever measured the pollution in Bangkok and Manilla? Likewise the traffic problems.

Points 7 and 8 really show how little you know about the respective countries.

Economic instability? I wonder where the 1997 Asian crisis actually STARTED!!

Coups insurrection and instability? Very very short memory!

It's certainly not perfect. There are other downsides to both countries which you havn't mentioned, but on balance, my experience so far is very positive, and the people are certainly more welcoming if nothing else.