Ballot - Only Way To True Democracy: Thailand

[jayboy]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

[khunken]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's a pity that in writing such one-eyed rubbish you have to resort to calling people who have a different opinion - ignorant.

All sorts of rice subsidy figures have been bandied about by PTP with their figures on (possibly imaginary) foreign sales questionable, to say the least. You are putting words in Korn's mouth which, if he knew the source, he would have a good laugh.

The Thai economy was broadly healthy in 1996 & we know what happened. There is so much being spent on subsidies (& the usual associated scams) that the amount is unsustainable based on the amount of revenue the government receives in taxes (some reduced). They will have to curtail the subsidies or the debt will rise over 60%. In fact if it were not for the FIDF manipulation where the debt was transferred from the government to the BOT, government debt would be worse that the current figure of close to 50%.

There is no sound case for wages to be increased (beyond gradually) until Thais are skilled enough to raise their level of productivity & task difficulty. This is not happening - education is awful & technical schools are in deep trouble for other reasons. You are putting the cart before the horse here (want to borrow an avatar?).

As Pedro said, keep your insults to yourself.

[Thai at Heart]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

Absolutely correct. Beyond that it is just pumping money into the economy from the government into the economy.

It may not be the cleverest policy ever, but it will take a very long time for it alone to push Thailand over it's fiscal cliff.

They will put up vat soon, i am convinced.

[jayboy]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's a pity that in writing such one-eyed rubbish you have to resort to calling people who have a different opinion - ignorant.

All sorts of rice subsidy figures have been bandied about by PTP with their figures on (possibly imaginary) foreign sales questionable, to say the least. You are putting words in Korn's mouth which, if he knew the source, he would have a good laugh.

The Thai economy was broadly healthy in 1996 & we know what happened. There is so much being spent on subsidies (& the usual associated scams) that the amount is unsustainable based on the amount of revenue the government receives in taxes (some reduced). They will have to curtail the subsidies or the debt will rise over 60%. In fact if it were not for the FIDF manipulation where the debt was transferred from the government to the BOT, government debt would be worse that the current figure of close to 50%.

There is no sound case for wages to be increased (beyond gradually) until Thais are skilled enough to raise their level of productivity & task difficulty. This is not happening - education is awful & technical schools are in deep trouble for other reasons. You are putting the cart before the horse here (want to borrow an avatar?).

Well at least you attempt to produce some numbers, but unfortunately they are wrong.The earlier comment was that the rice subsidy scheme will crash the Thai economy.It won't, nor does Korn believe that.(I use him as a touchstone because he is highly intelligent, well informed and politically very hostile to this government).

Your summary of the Thai economy is wrongheaded.We know the Thai economy was rocked to its foundation in the late 1990's but like most of Asia the country has made a remarkable recovery.The level of government debt needs watching but is easily containable.Clearly on the wage level issue you don't follow current debate.There is a very interesting debate going on with some economists arguing that a significant level of wage increase is just what Thailand now needs.Lee Kwan Yew tried something similar in Singapore some twenty years ago - putting the cart before the horse - and was roundly criticised by some economists for not taking into account skill levels in Singapore at that time.They were wrong then and so I suspect are you now.In case you haven't twigged the point higher wage levels forced Singaporean businesses to push for higher value added.Your low wage recipe does condemn Thailand to stagnation because frankly it can't compete on low labour costs with South Asia and elsewhere in the region.

[Thai at Heart]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's a pity that in writing such one-eyed rubbish you have to resort to calling people who have a different opinion - ignorant.

All sorts of rice subsidy figures have been bandied about by PTP with their figures on (possibly imaginary) foreign sales questionable, to say the least. You are putting words in Korn's mouth which, if he knew the source, he would have a good laugh.

The Thai economy was broadly healthy in 1996 & we know what happened. There is so much being spent on subsidies (& the usual associated scams) that the amount is unsustainable based on the amount of revenue the government receives in taxes (some reduced). They will have to curtail the subsidies or the debt will rise over 60%. In fact if it were not for the FIDF manipulation where the debt was transferred from the government to the BOT, government debt would be worse that the current figure of close to 50%.

There is no sound case for wages to be increased (beyond gradually) until Thais are skilled enough to raise their level of productivity & task difficulty. This is not happening - education is awful & technical schools are in deep trouble for other reasons. You are putting the cart before the horse here (want to borrow an avatar?).

As Pedro said, keep your insults to yourself.

No the economy was not healthy in 1996, if any of the ratings agencies had actually done their job.

Borrowing usd at 2% over 5 years and lending it at 6% over 15 years was an absolute disaster waiting to happen.

[khunken]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's a pity that in writing such one-eyed rubbish you have to resort to calling people who have a different opinion - ignorant.

All sorts of rice subsidy figures have been bandied about by PTP with their figures on (possibly imaginary) foreign sales questionable, to say the least. You are putting words in Korn's mouth which, if he knew the source, he would have a good laugh.

The Thai economy was broadly healthy in 1996 & we know what happened. There is so much being spent on subsidies (& the usual associated scams) that the amount is unsustainable based on the amount of revenue the government receives in taxes (some reduced). They will have to curtail the subsidies or the debt will rise over 60%. In fact if it were not for the FIDF manipulation where the debt was transferred from the government to the BOT, government debt would be worse that the current figure of close to 50%.

There is no sound case for wages to be increased (beyond gradually) until Thais are skilled enough to raise their level of productivity & task difficulty. This is not happening - education is awful & technical schools are in deep trouble for other reasons. You are putting the cart before the horse here (want to borrow an avatar?).

Well at least you attempt to produce some numbers, but unfortunately they are wrong.The earlier comment was that the rice subsidy scheme will crash the Thai economy.It won't, nor does Korn believe that.(I use him as a touchstone because he is highly intelligent, well informed and politically very hostile to this government).

Your summary of the Thai economy is wrongheaded.We know the Thai economy was rocked to its foundation in the late 1990's but like most of Asia the country has made a remarkable recovery.The level of government debt needs watching but is easily containable.Clearly on the wage level issue you don't follow current debate.There is a very interesting debate going on with some economists arguing that a significant level of wage increase is just what Thailand now needs.Lee Kwan Yew tried something similar in Singapore some twenty years ago - putting the cart before the horse - and was roundly criticised by some economists for not taking into account skill levels in Singapore at that time.They were wrong then and so I suspect are you now.In case you haven't twigged the point higher wage levels forced Singaporean businesses to push for higher value added.Your low wage recipe does condemn Thailand to stagnation because frankly it can't compete on low labour costs with South Asia and elsewhere in the region.

Thank you for refraining from insults.

The Thai economy is not on a knife-edge but the point is that the level of debt is increasing & has to be stopped at some point. The point is - when. There are as usual two schools of thought on this &, contrary to what you say, I do follow the ongoing media debates & the unsustainability school has greater arguments for their case.

Using Singapore as an example for Thailand to follow is ridiculous (not withstanding Thaksin's thrust towards their weak democracy model). Singapore has used high numbers of expats to raise it's level of performance as well as a near dictatorship to force Lee Kwan Yu's ideas (not all sensible, by the way). Thailand will never follow this path & is too big to succumb to a dictatorship as easily as Singapore did.

I didn't argue against a raise in wage levels (read my last post again) that is gradual & both companies & workers are able to achieve. I do argue against a political bribe to workers that is both too quick & doesn't include any effort to improve productivity. Higher productivity & a more skilled workforce will not automatically result from a substantial hike in the minimum wage.

[pedro01]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's hard to know where to start with this.

Your history on this board is as someone that baits people serially and we both know that the above is a crass attempt.

I think though in this case, I know what the issue is. We are talking about 2 different countries. Singapore is it?

[marshbags]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

Absolutely correct. Beyond that it is just pumping money into the economy from the government into the economy.

It may not be the cleverest policy ever, but it will take a very long time for it alone to push Thailand over it's fiscal cliff.

They will put up vat soon, i am convinced.

The forthcoming minimum wage increases of 300 baht will not bode well for the economy in the broader picture and there will be untold hardship for all the unfortunates who are not wage earners and god help the poorer members of Thai society who are presently just getting by.

The outcome will be yet another blow for this government of self serving officials and their exiled leader who as against the majority of their supporters, in particular the ones in the Isaan regions, can easily absorb all and any inflationary effects it will eventually have on the Thai economy.

You may talk a good talk Thaksin but reality with come back to haunt you and your misguided supporters will really start to wonder what is happening to all they were promised and consequently voted you in for.

Food as if it hasn,t already increased enough for the unfortunate less well off who have no income of substance.if at all any.

It will most certainly go up by leaps and bounds to subsidise the employers who will be paying this pre election promises aka bribe of encouragement to get the bribed for election votes.

More importantly all the unprincipled self serving gov. officials and unscrupulous owners ect. will once again use it as a means / excuse to inflate thier profits yet further to well over and above what they need in the way of the wage increases / commitments.

Unemlpoyment is sure to increase and many will loose their present highly dependant jobs and join the ranks of no hopers in respect of a deserved, decent future.

Many by the way are already making obscene profits via unjustified product increases or the devious reducing of sized packets and weighed contents and volumes ect. ect.

As for the farang with families who are seeing their pensions getting cut back at home and are starting to struggle here, this will also have a real effect on their living standards ect ect. in the future along with their family commitments.

Let us hope they do not decide to put the visa requirements up or at the very least make due considerations for those with family obligations who's food bills ect. ect. will be already having an effect on them.

They cannot / won,t " pack up and go home " either before the usual no brainers start their well rehearsed insults and insensitve comments.

marshbags

Edited November 30, 2012 by marshbags

[Thai at Heart]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

Absolutely correct. Beyond that it is just pumping money into the economy from the government into the economy.

It may not be the cleverest policy ever, but it will take a very long time for it alone to push Thailand over it's fiscal cliff.

They will put up vat soon, i am convinced.

The forthcoming minimum wage increases of 300 baht will not bode well for the economy in the broader picture and there will be untold hardship for all the unfortunates who are not wage earners and god help the poorer members of Thai society who are presently just getting by.

The outcome will be yet another blow for this government of self serving officials and their exiled leader who as against the majority of their supporters, in particular the ones in the Isaan regions, can easily absorb all and any inflationary effects it will eventually have on the Thai economy.

You may talk a good talk Thaksin but reality with come back to haunt you and your misguided supporters will really start to wonder what is happening to all they were promised and consequently voted you in for.

Food as if it hasn,t already increased enough for the unfortunate less well off who have no income of substance.if at all any.

It will most certainly go up by leaps and bounds to subsidise the employers who will be paying this pre election promises aka bribe of encouragement to get the bribed for election votes.

More importantly all the unprincipled self serving gov. officials and unscrupulous owners ect. will once again use it as a means / excuse to inflate thier profits yet further to well over and above what they need in the way of the wage increases / commitments.

Unemlpoyment is sure to increase and many will loose their present highly dependant jobs and join the ranks of no hopers in respect of a deserved, decent future.

Many by the way are already making obscene profits via unjustified product increases or the devious reducing of sized packets and weighed contents and volumes ect. ect.

As for the farang with families who are seeing their pensions getting cut back at home and are starting to struggle here, this will also have a real effect on their living standards ect ect. in the future along with their family commitments.

Let us hope they do not decide to put the visa requirements up or at the very least make due considerations for those with family obligations who's food bills ect. ect. will be already having an effect on them.

They cannot / won,t " pack up and go home " either before the usual no brainers start their well rehearsed insults and insensitve comments.

marshbags

Most companies up here in Isaan, are hiring above 300 already.

[uptheos]

Democracy is much more than placing a ballot in a box!

Everything remains the same, that's not democracy e.g. the military should be responsible to the government, not the other way around.

[Thai at Heart]

Yup, the country is obviously going to turn into Greece with 48% government debt to gdp ratio.

It's like listening to faux news. I watched a debate on autralian news network last week and they were having a serious debate over reckless government borrowing that totaled 9% of gdp.

Let those poor buggars starve i say.

What utter piffle with no basis in economics.

[jayboy]

If we ignore that and just focus on the rice scheme, this single policy alone is enough to crash the Thai economy.

No it's not, and the ignorance you show determines the nature of any response.I have argued elsewhere that the rice subsidy scheme is misguided but a passing knowledge of the numbers' impact on the national balance sheet demonstrates your claim is nonsense.Khun Korn, whom I'm sure, has the facts at his fingertips certainly wouldn't make that claim.You say the PTP machine will crash the Thai economy - sheer silliness on your part I'm afraid, and incidentally ignores the broadly cross party consensus on economic management as well as the excellent quality of senior bureaucrats.Taking another point there is a sound case for wages to be increased in Thailand to encourage the transition to higher value added.There is a case to be made for criticising this government's handling of the economy but the changes needed are at the margin.For you and others to make ridiculous statements about a broadly very healthy economy is unacceptable.If you wish to pursue I suggestt you do so elsewhere and not in a serious forum discussion.

It's hard to know where to start with this.

Your history on this board is as someone that baits people serially and we both know that the above is a crass attempt.

I think though in this case, I know what the issue is. We are talking about 2 different countries. Singapore is it?

You are mistaken.I pointed out some ridiculous and ignorant statements from you.Do I really need to list them again? Instead of retraction or even explanation you simply attempt to deflect through personalisation.

Of course Singapore is totally different from Thailand.I was simply making a comment aboutthe need to increase the value added element in the economy and rely less on cheap labour.Thailand has done it in the past diversifying away from agriculture and commodities, and I believe can do it in the future.Calibrated wage level increases will play an important part.In other words cheap labour reliant businesses will either have to change or go out of business.All this is good for the Thai economy.

What I particularly resent is the way some on the forum are dishonest (and sometimes breathtakingly ignorant) about the Thai economy as a way of making political capital.I posted the Korn clip, who has as much reason to make political capital as anyone, but his honesty, knowledge and intelligence shone through nonetheless.It's not really a political matter as I tried to explain and politicians, bureaucrats and above all businessmen can take credit.It's nothing really about this particular government anyway.

[pedro01]

Yup, the country is obviously going to turn into Greece with 48% government debt to gdp ratio.

It's like listening to faux news. I watched a debate on autralian news network last week and they were having a serious debate over reckless government borrowing that totaled 9% of gdp.

Let those poor buggars starve i say.

What utter piffle with no basis in economics.

You can't look at these things in isolation.

The government is focusing its efforts in such a way as to guarantee it brings the economy down.

Corruption will see continued efforts on schemes like rice. It secures votes and lines pockets.

On the other hand, it causes ling term damage to the rice industry. Quantity is valued over quality, which means we are looking at potentially permanent reductions in demand for Thai rice. Not because of price because of reputation.

Other Asean countries are taking low cost production way from Thailand & there is little progress in education I'd infrastructure needed to move Thailand up the value chain.

The future is not bright.

Edited December 1, 2012 by pedro01

[marshbags]

Talk about tempting fate .

My stepson last night told us the factory were he works at in Ban prat has just informed them at an urgent meeting the place is closing down on the 24th of Dec and will not be re opening.

Everyone is to be made redundant.

The factory has been very good to them and has a good reputation for employee conditions and provisions.

He was always working overtime for which a generous additional wage was paid, but this has been abruptly stopped as of now.

The company have kindly arranged for prospective emloyers to visit on the 14th to vet everyone and maybe employ selected and suitable candidates.

It really has come out of the blue and has naturally upset everyone.

I cannot help but wonder if the present political situation / enviroment has in some way added to the reasons as to why they have decided to close down.

Like I said the company have always been very good to the workforce and I do not think bad of them and they must have very good reasons for closing the factory down.

Sadly many have financial obligations ( not living beyond their means type things as most from what I experienced were sensible people )and always assumed they had security and the ability to pay for whatever they committed themselves to based on their regular salaries.

marshbags

Kudos to Admin / Thai Visa for the auto recovery facility, I just experienced a power cut so thought this post have gone to cyber space.

Thanks again for saving me having to rewrite another post as I think it is important re the economical situation that is being debated at present.

[jayboy]

The government is focusing its efforts in such a way as to guarantee it brings the economy down.

Sometimes it's not necessary to comment, as when statements made are so absurd and in this quoted instance utterly foolish.

[timewilltell]

Actually, the best way to achieve this goal is to have a highly educated electorate. When people do not have the ability to solve problems intellectually, they resort to violence in order to achieve change. Considering the educational system in Thailand...The writing is on the wall.

Er, not really.Most of the worlds democracies achieved that position when their populations were at least as poorly educated as that of Thailand - in some cases much less educated.In any event you are confusing education with intelligence, specifically the ability of rural people to perceive which politicians/party are more likely to improve voters material prospects.In Thailand the sections which have more often resorted to violence are the unelected elites, the army and their supporters (eg Red Gaurs in 1976) whether through military coups or repressive violence.

Hmm well maybe many democracies were formed with an ignorant illiterate electorate. However the thrust of the reply was to secure democracy through the ballot box without resorting to violence. The UK democratic system came about peacefully but at the time people in politics were driven by somewhat more altruistic goals and the country was governed with at least some effort in maintaining it's position in the world. There was honour and public exposure was a severe disincentive to behave dishonorably.

These days no one gives a hoot and if you are exposed as a corrupt treacherous B&*^%$$d then never mind. This is not restricted to Thailand either - it seems to be a global trend - George Bush's Florida shenanigans come to mind, Peter Mandelsson in the UK and the list is long.

Shame seems to count for nothing anymore except in Thailand where the shame does not even exist. People in power at all levels are openly corrupt and proud of it. Judges, police, politicians - just everyone and they have no shame for it because society here accepts it.

So the ill educated remain ill educated and vote buying is the way to get in. I think the first 2/3rds of the OP is spot on. That is exactly what is going on. A military coup is not the way to change it but neither can the rape of Thailand's treasury continue like this. Without education, violence will be the route taken to bring about change - change that is desperately needed because the people in politics today are bereft of honour, dignity, trust or altruism and seek only to further their own personal gains with less than zero respect or thought to the country they are the first to pretend to love so much.

With an idiotic, shallow thinking electorate and a government that only has ideas on how to steal from Thailand's coffers, there is not much hope of a peaceful democratic long term solution. The elite here are educated - at least to a fashion - and do see what is going on but if 20 million Somchai's and Panida's are going to vote for the next shiny present offered for their vote - a shiny present full of excrement - then the current cess pit of treasonous, corrupt government will continue.

[jayboy]

Actually, the best way to achieve this goal is to have a highly educated electorate. When people do not have the ability to solve problems intellectually, they resort to violence in order to achieve change. Considering the educational system in Thailand...The writing is on the wall.

Er, not really.Most of the worlds democracies achieved that position when their populations were at least as poorly educated as that of Thailand - in some cases much less educated.In any event you are confusing education with intelligence, specifically the ability of rural people to perceive which politicians/party are more likely to improve voters material prospects.In Thailand the sections which have more often resorted to violence are the unelected elites, the army and their supporters (eg Red Gaurs in 1976) whether through military coups or repressive violence.

Hmm well maybe many democracies were formed with an ignorant illiterate electorate. However the thrust of the reply was to secure democracy through the ballot box without resorting to violence. The UK democratic system came about peacefully but at the time people in politics were driven by somewhat more altruistic goals and the country was governed with at least some effort in maintaining it's position in the world. There was honour and public exposure was a severe disincentive to behave dishonorably.

These days no one gives a hoot and if you are exposed as a corrupt treacherous B&*^%$$d then never mind. This is not restricted to Thailand either - it seems to be a global trend - George Bush's Florida shenanigans come to mind, Peter Mandelsson in the UK and the list is long.

Shame seems to count for nothing anymore except in Thailand where the shame does not even exist. People in power at all levels are openly corrupt and proud of it. Judges, police, politicians - just everyone and they have no shame for it because society here accepts it.

So the ill educated remain ill educated and vote buying is the way to get in. I think the first 2/3rds of the OP is spot on. That is exactly what is going on. A military coup is not the way to change it but neither can the rape of Thailand's treasury continue like this. Without education, violence will be the route taken to bring about change - change that is desperately needed because the people in politics today are bereft of honour, dignity, trust or altruism and seek only to further their own personal gains with less than zero respect or thought to the country they are the first to pretend to love so much.

With an idiotic, shallow thinking electorate and a government that only has ideas on how to steal from Thailand's coffers, there is not much hope of a peaceful democratic long term solution. The elite here are educated - at least to a fashion - and do see what is going on but if 20 million Somchai's and Panida's are going to vote for the next shiny present offered for their vote - a shiny present full of excrement - then the current cess pit of treasonous, corrupt government will continue.

Yet more profound ignorance.Uneducated or even illiterate does not mean ignorant.In any case Thailand is highly literate throughout and increasingly well educated.

UK democracy did not come without riots and a great deal of violence principally from the authorities.Those in authority were generally not driven by higher ideals but by an understandable wish to preserve as much as possible of their wealth and power in the face of democratic forces.In this attempt they were remarkably successfull in sharp contrast with the stupidity and boneheaded ness of their Thai equivalents - who show little evidence of enlightened self interest .

I have no comment on the last part of your post - just a rehash of discredited vote buying nonsense and lies about the present government .

[pedro01]

The government is focusing its efforts in such a way as to guarantee it brings the economy down.

Sometimes it's not necessary to comment, as when statements made are so absurd and in this quoted instance utterly foolish.

Yet you comment anyway.

I don't think you have thought this through.

You export millions of tonnes of a product. You have a fantastic reputation for quality that people trust. People actually pay a small premium for your product.

Now, one year you set a totally unreasonable price for your product. This gives your customers (not the retail guys, I'm talking higher up the supply chain) the job of sourcing product elsewhere. You've just given them a lot of extra work. You have given your competitors a chance to build relationships with your customers whilst at the same time showing them you don't care about them.

On top of this, you have now encouraged the producers of the product to put quantity over quality because of the way the guarantee is structured. There is also rice coming from other countries being stored as the premium Thai product. So - many of those that are still buying what they believe to be premium product are now buying something substandard.

In addition and the final nail in the coffin is that at some point in the near future, Thailand will need to dump the rice. This will cause rice prices to drop worldwide as well as putting Thailand in breach of WTO regulations.

So with the vast quantities of people that this will impact financially, Thailand will become a pariah in the rice market. You really think that when all this is over, people will just start buying Thai rice again? Thailand's place as the worlds largest rice exporter is finished permanently.

This comes at a time when the Asean market is about to open up. Thailand's edge used to be in labour price competitiveness. This is changing. Thailand therefore needs to ensure that overall production costs are still lower here and academics have been saying for years that infrastructure and education are the ways to do this. Neither are moving forward in a meaningful way here.

The only positive thing is the potential that this crashed the Baht putting Thailand back on the map a a provider of cheap labour.

Edited December 1, 2012 by pedro01

[h90]

it is a circle.....a vote buying corrupt government won't make laws against corruption and vote buying.

Without separation of power they won't get in troubles anyway.

Have a look to the East Europe Communist countries or to North Korea.....East Europe Communist parties didn't fall on the ballot boxes.

Maybe in North Korea they will vote out Kim, in the next 20-100 votes....we only need to wait.

Stupid comparison.In neither Eastern Europe under communism nor North Korea have there been free elections so your examples are meaningless.You seem to be saying that in Thailand vote buying nullifies elections? If so show hard evidence since no reputable source agrees with you - including the Democrat opposition, international observers, political analysts etc.If you are not saying this then stop alluding to it as a major consideration.In practice of course the unelected elites prefer the majority to be uneducated and ignorant as it leaves them in total command, particularly when taken in context of Thailand's deferential culture.That's why they loathe Thaksin because one of their own (well almost) pulled the plug on the status quo.

In both North Korea and in Eastern Europe were elections and these governments consider them as free elections....

Yes massive vote buying nullifies elections, or say it different, with vote buying elections aren't democratic.

If you tell me there wasn't full scale vote buying than you either lie or you never have been in Thailand during elections....It is known common knowledge, not even hiding. I agree that most governments did nothing to get the people more educated. I only saw the Surayud government trying to establish high value educational TV and Abhisit tried to improve it. I didn't see much from your hero Thaksin to improve the education and he was a long time in power.

Thailand as it is now would need a complete revolution in their educational system, which is not easy even if someone would try to do it.

Edit: Add: Thaksin told several times that he prefers a 1 party system....that is exactly what Eastern Europe had....North Korea has two parties (at least theoretically)

Edited December 1, 2012 by h90

[Hugo6]

No one has remarked on this comment from the 'brains' behind Pad and Pitak Siam:

"Furthermore, they condone a power seizure as the last resort if democratic measures, including the awareness campaign, fail to sway sentiment away from populism."

Very scary, either see things my way or I will force you to see things my way. Pol Pot would have been proud of these guys.

The Red Shirts aspire to Pol Pot's model. They want the Democrats done away with and a single party state. That's scary.

that is just nonsense

[h90]

No one has remarked on this comment from the 'brains' behind Pad and Pitak Siam:

"Furthermore, they condone a power seizure as the last resort if democratic measures, including the awareness campaign, fail to sway sentiment away from populism."

Very scary, either see things my way or I will force you to see things my way. Pol Pot would have been proud of these guys.

The Red Shirts aspire to Pol Pot's model. They want the Democrats done away with and a single party state. That's scary.

that is just nonsense

Mr Thaksin spoke a few time about the single party state. I recall when he invited the democrats and the other parties to join together into 1 party...it wasn't long ago...2-3 years.

[hellodolly]

Good article.

Whilst many want to intervene right now, I personally think that the PTP machine needs to be left to crash Thailand economy. Sure, it will be painful, heads will roll. At the end of the day, all these coups, judicial or military, just perpetuate the current situation.

That isn't to say the corrupt shouldn't be named, shamed & imprisoned. Just that you need to let PTP implode on its own.

What is it about this thread? Another absurd and profoundly stupid post.The Thai economy is not on the verge of crashing but is in contrast doing extremely well.It's fine to criticise this government but the level of ignorance and/or downright dishonesty is unacceptable.Being charitable I suspect part of the problem is sheer ignorance and a lack of comprehension of how the Thai economy is managed.Firstly there is no real difference between the political parties on essentials and secondly there is a very high level of competence and independence with senior officials in the Ministry of Finance and Bank of Thailand.Thirdly there is the remarkable Thai corporate and banking sector which despite global vicissitudes is doing extremely well.In short the Thai economy is in great shape.

Don't take my word for it.Khun Korn who is the most formidable critic of the current government says virtually the same thing.

http://www.businessw...conomy#r=lr-fst

Well what you say sounds good. If it is true why did the finance minister say it is OK to lie?

Very Perplexing indeed.

[Honkie]

it is a circle.....a vote buying corrupt government won't make laws against corruption and vote buying.

Without separation of power they won't get in troubles anyway.

Have a look to the East Europe Communist countries or to North Korea.....East Europe Communist parties didn't fall on the ballot boxes.

Maybe in North Korea they will vote out Kim, in the next 20-100 votes....we only need to wait.

Who is going to vote out the sexiest leader in the world?

And I don't mean Yingluck!

Not only the sexiest , the cutest as well !!!

[hellodolly]

it is a circle.....a vote buying corrupt government won't make laws against corruption and vote buying.

Without separation of power they won't get in troubles anyway.

Have a look to the East Europe Communist countries or to North Korea.....East Europe Communist parties didn't fall on the ballot boxes.

Maybe in North Korea they will vote out Kim, in the next 20-100 votes....we only need to wait.

Who is going to vote out the sexiest leader in the world?

And I don't mean Yingluck!

Not only the sexiest , the cutest as well !!!

Well I know who is the cultist unfortunately she has a body similar in some ways to a fire hydrant. Who is the leader in Argentina now?

And what has all this got to do with bringing Democracy to Thailand. They do not want one they are content with the Parliamentary system. The real problem is how to bring an honest government to Thailand.

[jayboy]

it is a circle.....a vote buying corrupt government won't make laws against corruption and vote buying.

Without separation of power they won't get in troubles anyway.

Have a look to the East Europe Communist countries or to North Korea.....East Europe Communist parties didn't fall on the ballot boxes.

Maybe in North Korea they will vote out Kim, in the next 20-100 votes....we only need to wait.

Stupid comparison.In neither Eastern Europe under communism nor North Korea have there been free elections so your examples are meaningless.You seem to be saying that in Thailand vote buying nullifies elections? If so show hard evidence since no reputable source agrees with you - including the Democrat opposition, international observers, political analysts etc.If you are not saying this then stop alluding to it as a major consideration.In practice of course the unelected elites prefer the majority to be uneducated and ignorant as it leaves them in total command, particularly when taken in context of Thailand's deferential culture.That's why they loathe Thaksin because one of their own (well almost) pulled the plug on the status quo.

In both North Korea and in Eastern Europe were elections and these governments consider them as free elections....

Yes massive vote buying nullifies elections, or say it different, with vote buying elections aren't democratic.

If you tell me there wasn't full scale vote buying than you either lie or you never have been in Thailand during elections....It is known common knowledge, not even hiding. I agree that most governments did nothing to get the people more educated. I only saw the Surayud government trying to establish high value educational TV and Abhisit tried to improve it. I didn't see much from your hero Thaksin to improve the education and he was a long time in power.

Thailand as it is now would need a complete revolution in their educational system, which is not easy even if someone would try to do it.

Edit: Add: Thaksin told several times that he prefers a 1 party system....that is exactly what Eastern Europe had....North Korea has two parties (at least theoretically)

More foolishness.Of course the governments of North Korea etc boasted about "free" elections, but they were no more fair than these dictatorships were peoples "democracies" - as they liked to label themselves.In contrast the elections in Thailand were free and fair and have been recognised as such by international bodies and the world generally.Aren't you ashamed of your suggestions that Thailand is just another dictatorship? You people cast around for reasons to imply Yingluck's government isn't legitimate.If not silliness about vote buying it's that most Thais didn't vote for her - ignoring the rules of parliamentary democracy.It's akin to those whackjobs who insist Obama isn't legitimate because Romney got 47% of the popular vote.

As to the specifics of vote buying in Thailand this - for the umpteenth time - is a practice which needs to be stamped out - but did not change the overall result.If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise let's hear it.

Finally there is no evidence the well educated make political decisions in voting that are less selfish than anyone else

[Hugo6]

No one has remarked on this comment from the 'brains' behind Pad and Pitak Siam:

"Furthermore, they condone a power seizure as the last resort if democratic measures, including the awareness campaign, fail to sway sentiment away from populism."

Very scary, either see things my way or I will force you to see things my way. Pol Pot would have been proud of these guys.

The Red Shirts aspire to Pol Pot's model. They want the Democrats done away with and a single party state. That's scary.

that is just nonsense

Mr Thaksin spoke a few time about the single party state. I recall when he invited the democrats and the other parties to join together into 1 party...it wasn't long ago...2-3 years.

the comment is still nonsense.