Remembering

[webfact]

8 Dec 1941

A few hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japan demanded the right to move across Thailand to the Malayan frontier. Japan invaded Thailand and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Philbun ordered an armistice. Shortly afterward the Japan was granted free passage.

Udorn Royal Thai Air Force Base: http://udornrtafb.tripod.com/id68.html

[wayned]

Somebody asked for relavance, I gave them relavance! It s a quote and it's not from Wikipedia. Since it's a quote I don't have to question the validity or search out other sources. If you see some errors in the quote and want to correct them be my guest!

[h90]

... And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons.

Hitler declared war on the USA on December 11th, not the other way around. Agree about the Soviet contribution but that wouldn't have helped the western allies if they had overrun all of Europe, would it?

Because the USA transported weapons on their neutral ships, so basically they were already since a long time in war. But really not Thailand related or?

[chiangmaikelly]

Here's some relavance:

"In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. .......

Consider the source of all this - and question WikiPedia always. Anything about Thailand has been edited so hagiographically that one absolutely MUST search out other sources.

So what do you disagree with? I mean if you don't disagree with something what is the point of your post? So list your objections to the WikiPedia. As far as I can see the article is very factual.

[chiangmaikelly]

... And the Americans didn't start the war with Germany to free us, they did it for their own selfish reasons.

Hitler declared war on the USA on December 11th, not the other way around. Agree about the Soviet contribution but that wouldn't have helped the western allies if they had overrun all of Europe, would it?

Because the USA transported weapons on their neutral ships, so basically they were already since a long time in war. But really not Thailand related or?

I think you got your justifications and wars mixed up. That was the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans in WWI May 7th 1915.

[Hedghog]

Remember The Battle of Hastings 1066.

Believe I had some distant relatives die at that time

[Hedghog]

Pearl harbour.

Maybe it was a friendly fire incident

[RabC]

Remember The Battle of Hastings 1066.

Believe I had some distant relatives die at that time

Thanks for that, I find it just as relevant to Thailand as Pearl Harbour.

[chiangmaikelly]

Remember The Battle of Hastings 1066.

Believe I had some distant relatives die at that time

Thanks for that, I find it just as relevant to Thailand as Pearl Harbour.

Hardly. The bombing of Pearl Harbor was part of the same operation which resulted in the fall of Singapore to the Japanese and the largest surrender of British-led military personnel in history. Winston Churchill correctly identified the problem. Thailand had watched the British lose the Prince of Wales (35,000 men lost) and the Repulse (33,250 men lost) off the coast of Malaya by Japanese torpedo aircraft a couple of days after the Pearl Harbor attack.

Noting the American losses at Pearl Harbor and the British loses of capital ships and sailors close by off of Malaya Thailand thought it had made the correct choice backing the Japanese in WWII.

Edited December 8, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[GuestHouse]

CMK, the loss of life during the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse was 840 men. No small number but not your total of 68,250.

You are also glossing over the part played by the doctrine of Asian superiority being spread by the Japanese in the run up to WWII. Not dissimilar to the doctrine of European superiority it played on the self same eagerness to believe oneself superior to others. Thailand's political elite jumped at the chance of joining what they believed was going to be a new Japanese Empire. They backed the wrong horse.

Japan entered WWII with two strategic aims - To gain access to resources and to gain access to international markets.

Japan came out of WWII with access to resources, access to international markets and a huge US financial support package to get Japan back on its feet.

In these respects Japan won their objectives.

US concerns were of course not to pat Japan on the back and help them for no other reason than they needed help. The US focus was to establish US control in east Asia and keep the Russians out.

There's enough speculation on US military actions towards the end of the Japanese war (just as Russia was insisting that they too take part in 'liberating the Pacific and Asia) - A swift end to the war was needed and a swift end was had - just as the Russians were loading their ships.

Of course the war in Europe was over by then. The US likes to portray the image of the US having saved Europe, once again the facts do not back-up the statement.

The Germans had failed to gain air superiority over the British at the battle of Britain, brining to an end any hope of the Germans invading the Britain. Hitler in the meantime turned his military on Russia and it was the battle with Russia that defeated the German forces. By the time the US military turned up in Europe Germany was already loosing hugely to the Russians in the east and sustaining a massive bombing campaign from the British in the west.

Britain fighting alone - with the Russian, the free European forces and the 500 Million people of the empire.

The US was of course playing its part in all this, manufacturing war materiel for the British. Materiel that they British were paying for in cash and war debt.

US objectives in Europe being to get into Germany before the Russians while bleeding the British Empire into collapse - Both objectives achieved.

The US response to Perl Harbor was inevitable and welcome in a world gone mad. But the only part of WWII won by the US was that portrayed in the movies.

Post WWII, US policy was to fight the Russians outside of the US, a policy they managed to achieve in SE Asia and Afghanistan - thankfully not one they needed to achieve in Europe.

But it is a policy everyone outside the US needs to be aware of and mindful of.

Edited December 8, 2012 by GuestHouse

[chiangmaikelly]

CMK, the loss of life during the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse was 840 men. No small number but not your total of 68,250.

You are also glossing over the part played by the doctrine of Asian superiority being spread by the Japanese in the run up to WWII. Not dissimilar to the doctrine of European superiority it played on the self same eagerness to believe oneself superior to others. Thailand's political elite jumped at the chance of joining what they believed was going to be a new Japanese Empire. They backed the wrong horse.

Japan entered WWII with two strategic aims - To gain access to resources and to gain access to international markets.

Japan came out of WWII with access to resources, access to international markets and a huge US financial support package to get Japan back on its feet.

In these respects Japan won their objectives.

US concerns were of course not to pat Japan on the back and help them for no other reason than they needed help. The US focus was to establish US control in east Asia and keep the Russians out.

There's enough speculation on US military actions towards the end of the Japanese war (just as Russia was insisting that they too take part in 'liberating the Pacific and Asia) - A swift end to the war was needed and a swift end was had - just as the Russians were loading their ships.

Of course the war in Europe was over by then. The US likes to portray the image of the US having saved Europe, once again the facts do not back-up the statement.

The Germans had failed to gain air superiority over the British at the battle of Britain, brining to an end any hope of the Germans invading the Britain. Hitler in the meantime turned his military on Russia and it was the battle with Russia that defeated the German forces. By the time the US military turned up in Europe Germany was already loosing hugely to the Russians in the east and sustaining a massive bombing campaign from the British in the west.

Britain fighting alone - with the Russian, the free European forces and the 500 Million people of the empire.

The US was of course playing its part in all this, manufacturing war materiel for the British. Materiel that they British were paying for in cash and war debt.

US objectives in Europe being to get into Germany before the Russians while bleeding the British Empire into collapse - Both objectives achieved.

The US response to Perl Harbor was inevitable and welcome in a world gone mad. But the only part of WWII won by the US was that portrayed in the movies.

Post WWII, US policy was to fight the Russians outside of the US, a policy they managed to achieve in SE Asia and Afghanistan - thankfully not one they needed to achieve in Europe.

But it is a policy everyone outside the US needs to be aware of and mindful of.

http://www.naval-his...osses1Major.htm

Thanks for that. It sounded high to me. I read it wrong. It was tons.

New movie out about FDR and drumming up support for WWII Hyde Park on Hudson

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-hyde-park-on-hudson-movie-reviews-critics-20121207,0,3406520.story

Edited December 8, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[macksview]

thanks and thoughts to those that lost their lives on a day an evil empire tried a gambut of the greatest risk

Phibun,traitor or patriot ?,depends on how you judge him,the japanese army veterans of fighting through manchuria and china,hardened,motivated and cruel,a two-bit army resisted them,but to be honest they stood no hope of holding the japanese at bay for any length of time.

Phibun took the easy way and maybe the logical way out,use thai land,work too death some peasants as slave labour,but keep everyone who was important in the way they were accustomed.

the americans,paid so dearly for the revenge of pearl harbour,it is sobering reading,when reading about the pacific campaign they undertook,huge loss of life,men dying on little known atolls for reasons they did not know,but were important for strategic reasons.

[chiangmaikelly]

thanks and thoughts to those that lost their lives on a day an evil empire tried a gambut of the greatest risk

Phibun,traitor or patriot ?,depends on how you judge him,the japanese army veterans of fighting through manchuria and china,hardened,motivated and cruel,a two-bit army resisted them,but to be honest they stood no hope of holding the japanese at bay for any length of time.

Phibun took the easy way and maybe the logical way out,use thai land,work too death some peasants as slave labour,but keep everyone who was important in the way they were accustomed.

the americans,paid so dearly for the revenge of pearl harbour,it is sobering reading,when reading about the pacific campaign they undertook,huge loss of life,men dying on little known atolls for reasons they did not know,but were important for strategic reasons.

Yamashita's 30,000 front-line soldiers captured 130,000 British, Indian, and Australian troops. The invasion was launched on the 8th of December 1941, Pearl Harbor the 7th. Yamashita was hanged Feb. 23, 1946.

Edited December 8, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[TomTao]

thanks and thoughts to those that lost their lives on a day an evil empire tried a gambut of the greatest risk

Phibun,traitor or patriot ?,depends on how you judge him,the japanese army veterans of fighting through manchuria and china,hardened,motivated and cruel,a two-bit army resisted them,but to be honest they stood no hope of holding the japanese at bay for any length of time.

Phibun took the easy way and maybe the logical way out,use thai land,work too death some peasants as slave labour,but keep everyone who was important in the way they were accustomed.

the americans,paid so dearly for the revenge of pearl harbour,it is sobering reading,when reading about the pacific campaign they undertook,huge loss of life,men dying on little known atolls for reasons they did not know,but were important for strategic reasons.

Yamashita's 30,000 front-line soldiers captured 130,000 British, Indian, and Australian troops. The invasion was launched on the 8th of December Pearl Harbor the 7th. Yamashita was hanged in 1946.

As I remeber from various documentaries and some history lessons, the Japanese arrived by bicycle carring parts of the disassembled heavy weapons with them, when the British commanders were told that the Japanese were advancing on Singapore they laughed it off believing Singapore was lmperitrably by a an army on land, by the time reality hit home it was too to offer anything more than token resistance, what followed for the Allied prisoners was a horrid time of forced labour in horrific conditions, only a fraction of those captured made it home.

Sent from my GT-I9003

[Hedghog]

I prefer the Battle of Britain,Vietnam,action movies,not so romantic,Pearl harbour is a a bit Titanic,ish

[Briggsy]

I prefer the Battle of Britain,Vietnam,action movies,not so romantic,Pearl harbour is a a bit Titanic,ish

Yes, Platoon is probably my favourite movie. But it could be 24-Hour Party People. It's difficult to decide.

[Rob8891]

I prefer the Battle of Britain,Vietnam,action movies,not so romantic,Pearl harbour is a a bit Titanic,ish

Maybe one day you will be able to move up to reading comics and then when you discover a degree of maturity, you'll be able to handle non-fiction written material to broaden your apparently very small mind.

[theblether]

thanks and thoughts to those that lost their lives on a day an evil empire tried a gambut of the greatest risk

Phibun,traitor or patriot ?,depends on how you judge him,the japanese army veterans of fighting through manchuria and china,hardened,motivated and cruel,a two-bit army resisted them,but to be honest they stood no hope of holding the japanese at bay for any length of time.

Phibun took the easy way and maybe the logical way out,use thai land,work too death some peasants as slave labour,but keep everyone who was important in the way they were accustomed.

the americans,paid so dearly for the revenge of pearl harbour,it is sobering reading,when reading about the pacific campaign they undertook,huge loss of life,men dying on little known atolls for reasons they did not know,but were important for strategic reasons.

Yamashita's 30,000 front-line soldiers captured 130,000 British, Indian, and Australian troops. The invasion was launched on the 8th of December 1941, Pearl Harbor the 7th. Yamashita was hanged Feb. 23, 1946.

Singapore fell due to a lack of air cover and a burst water pipe. I know about the guns being mis-positioned too.

It was a calamity that turned into a catastrophe.

The topic is Thai related for like it or not, they folded against the Japanese, and then they allied with the Japanese.

That was all part of the same swoop.

[Tywais]

To put a stop to comments about Thai related. We have always allowed 'Remembrance Day (Poppy Day)' every year. As such, this one is allowed to run in a similar vein so you can stop with the 'Thai related' moans.

[thaifkrlim]

To put a stop to comments about Thai related. We have always allowed 'Remembrance Day (Poppy Day)' every year. As such, this one is allowed to run in a similar vein so you can stop with the 'Thai related' moans.

unfortunately, the title has no subject, just remembering...... nothing

[TommoPhysicist]

The americans cant resist a conflict

Thank christ they were there for all of us....they did their part the same as many other counties.

If not....you wouldnt have been born....and no one would have been able to enjoy the freedom we have today....name one country thats not in debt to the Allies.

It's sad to see any country's flag being burnt....especially(America) a country that sacrificed along with the other countries, to give you the freedom of speach especially. This is not the thread to put shit on the yanks.....this is to remember what was done for us by Allies, and is a special day for Americans....start your own thread if you need to bag yanks.

Just to point out, Russia may have won without any help. Not sure you can say anyone 'wouldn't have been born', just a different set of people in charge. The guys in charge in the west haven't been doing that great a job, maybe the Russians or Germans would have done it better.

Edited December 8, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[weegee]

To the mods.....

Thanks for allowing this thread to continue, and now the day has passed officially, we will remember, and hopefully never have our kids endure that situation.

To every nationality that was part of the Allied forces......THANK YOU!!!!!!!

The thread has run it's course.....and succeded to help bring to light what was sacrificed," LEST WE FORGET"

[jacktrip]

doubt they would rest in peace in pieces. but that's war for you.

[StreetCowboy]

Here's some relavance:

"In the immediate aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese forces invaded Thailand's territory on the morning of December 8, 1941. .......

Consider the source of all this - and question WikiPedia always. Anything about Thailand has been edited so hagiographically that one absolutely MUST search out other sources.

So what do you disagree with? I mean if you don't disagree with something what is the point of your post? So list your objections to the WikiPedia. As far as I can see the article is very factual.

I think a lot of these blokes are shills for the big text book publishers, who, presumably, see Thailand as a potential growth market.

SC

[JusMe]

8 Dec 1941

A few hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japan demanded the right to move across Thailand to the Malayan frontier. Japan invaded Thailand and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Philbun ordered an armistice. Shortly afterward the Japan was granted free passage.

Udorn Royal Thai Air Force Base: http://udornrtafb.tripod.com/id68.html

Japan did not need to demand anything; there had been previous agreement between the Japanese and Phibun that he would permit them to transit Thailand. This was not agreed after the attack on Pearl Harbour, but well before it. And as there was an agreement, we cannot use the term "invasion" for it.

Yes, the Thai military and police engaged Japanese forces for a few hours (at least a full day at Prachuap Khiri Khan), but that was because they were unaware of the agreement. Once they were informed, all fighting stopped.

Thailand later that year surprised even the Japanese by declaring war on the Allies.

As for the link, you don't think the Royal Thai Airforce has a vested interest in their own version of history? Hence my earlier comment about hagiographic entries in Wikipedia.

[Potosi]

There was a lot going on in early December 1941.

December 6

Finland and Romania declare war on Great Britain.

December 7

Japan declares war on the United States of America, Great Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the Union of South Africa.

Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Finland, Hungary and Romania. Canada declares war on Finland, Hungary, Japan and Romania.

Panama declares war on Japan. Greece breaks diplomatic relations with Japan.

Nicaragua breaks diplomatic relations with Vichy France.

Norway breaks relations with Finland.

Yugoslavia at war with Japan.

December 8

The United States of America, Great Britain, Australia, Costa Rica, The Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, The Netherlands, New Zealand and Nicaragua declare war on Japan.

The Union of South Africa declares war on Finland, Hungary, Japan and Romania.

Belgium, Colombia and Mexico break diplomatic relations with Japan.

Free French National Council declares war on Germany.

Manchukuo declares war on the United States.

December 11

China declares war with Germany, Italy and Japan. Cuba and Guatemala declare war on Japan.

Egypt and Norway break diplomatic relations with Japan.

The Netherlands breaks diplomatic relations with Thailand.

December 11

Germany and Italy declare war on the United States of America.

Diplomatic activity from Norway, Belgium, Netherlands, Yugoslavia, and Greece? From where? Haiti declares war on Japan? That's funny. Hitler was under contract with Italy and Japan, no choice but to declare war on the US.