Article About Drop In Thai Buddhism

[fabianfred]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world/asia/thai-buddhist-monks-struggle-to-stay-relevant.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0

IMHO there is no reason to stop doing alms-round. Many abbots do not do it because they are getting old and lazy and say their monks and novices do it for them...and like to await lay followers who want to make extra merit by coming in and giving food to the abbot at the temple ( a false belief IMHO).

If the Thai laity have wrong understanding it is because they have not been taught by the Thai monks....who prefer to do what the people want instead of putting their foot down and telling them outright that it is BS. They don't want to annoy their benefactors and are afraid they'll take their offerings elsewhere.

[Jawnie]

It seems to me that the core principle of renunciation has been lost. Renunciation opens the door to liberation, renunciation leads one through the door to liberation, renunciation closes the door to suffering. It must be practiced moment by moment, for always. The article has it correct when it mentions the materialism that has arisen so dramatically in Thai society.

[rockyysdt]

Many of them are also using Buddhist Nuns as personal servants.

The Nuns ensure all the domestic needs of the Abbots and Monks are attended to (serving food, tea, and other domestic chores) before the Nuns can turn to their own practice.

If Abbots and Monks live the way you describe, then they're only cheating themselves.

Alternatively, if this is all that there is, then what better lifestyle in an otherwise very poor country.

Edited December 20, 2012 by rockyysdt

[hookedondhamma]

The temple I am at currently has 1 person that comes in to offer food from home. There are no nuns here, which is great. most of the time whenever they live with the monks they're always a few that just love to gossip too much. Couple that with the thai monks love for gossip as well - not all of them but very many, and you have a circus with Buddha statues which people live to call a temple. it does not take long to realize that 1 really has to get away from any of the everyday things that make life so convenient and go live at a temple which is very much about practice are very isolated with very very few monks, or a similar meditation retreat to get a good foundation in what can be done or what can be done to assist ones practice ... Or learn Thai to go live at 1 of the more well practiced temples.

I have met quite a few thai laypeople that have a great view and understanding of Buddhism that is radically different from many thais believe, but they are not monks unfortunately - many of them have families and some of them are also women.

Also I have never ever seen a nun act as a servant to a monk, even one with high rank, believe it or not. Even if that were so there is no doubt in my mind that that would not change, though.

Jawnie makes an excellent and very poignant statement.

Edited December 20, 2012 by hookedondhamma

[Xangsamhua]

"For the sake of presentation, we have to change the way we teach Buddhism and make it easy and digestible like instant noodles.” (Phra Anil Sakya)

Absorb the Four Noble Truths. Follow the Eightfold Path. Avoid the Three Poisons (Anger, Greed, Delusion). How much easier and more digestible can the Buddha's message be?

Materialism and consumerism is possible now for Thais, so obviously they will be distracted. Traditional and superficial Buddhism alike will be challenged and they look like they're just about moribund now. But as people, over time, realize that the accumulation of possessions and the transient satisfaction of the senses do not bring happiness, some will look for a philosophy and practice more like an authentic Buddhadharma.

Mrs Xangsamhua has found great solace and support in the Asoke Movement ("Santi Asoke"). It's a bit radical, not for everyone, but it is certainly an attempt to put the Buddha's teachings into both communal and individual practice.

I wonder how much of the urban middle class's apparent interest in meditation is inspired by a wish to strip away the delusions of the ego as much as to ease competitive stress in order to be better able to compete in their workplaces and other interactions.

[MrRealDeal]

It's hard for modern people to take a book that starts with a section about a man on a flying elephant very seriously, even if the material after that makes perfect sence.

I would expect as people understand flying elephants don't exist their would be a drop in people believing in the books that promote that idea.

[Xangsamhua]

It's hard for modern people to take a book that starts with a section about a man on a flying elephant very seriously, even if the material after that makes perfect sence.

I would expect as people understand flying elephants don't exist their would be a drop in people believing in the books that promote that idea.

I suppose you're referring to the Vessantara Jataka, a very popular myth about an earlier life of the Buddha. In the old days (not so long ago) this Jataka would be recited, probably by a monk with a dramatic flare, at temple festivals around Thailand. Some famous story telling monks were in high demand at these events.

It would be interesting to know how many villagers took these stories literally. I suspect a lot did. In fact, I was speaking not long ago to a woman in her mid 60s, who was well educated for her time and now lives in Paris, and who still takes some of the the infancy narratives about the Buddha literally. However, one would hope that someone with at least some critical education in the Western tradition would be able to discriminate between the mythic trappings of any infancy narrative, whether it be of the Buddha, Ganesha, Jesus Christ or Augustus Caesar, and the message the myth is trying to illuminate for the people who constituted the audience at the time.

[MrRealDeal]

You will find it on the first page of the book at some hotels in Thailand ...... But thats just the problem, when religous books contain falsehoods it makes it hard for people to take them as seriously as if they didn't. And discerning whats false and whats not is a lot harder than you make it sound. The biblical story about people being in a big fish for 3 days is literal for some and not for others as an example.

I understand your point but at the same time modern people have come to realise that sifitng through the falsehoods in order to find the truth is not an especially good use of their time. It's unfortunate but it's the way it is ..... these books should have thought better than to make up fantastic untrue stories and expect people to believe the parts that are true. If they had made it clear they were myths it would be different , but they are normally only myths after the truth is found out later. Rendering the entire book suspect.

I'm not slamming religion or anything just pointing out why modern man is losing intrest in trying to decide which parts are true and which parts are not.

This actually has a personal meaning to me as I intended on reading the entire book at the hotel but when it started out with a man on a flying white elephant I decided not to. Can you blame me ?

Edited December 21, 2012 by MrRealDeal

[fabianfred]

I wonder how much of the urban middle class's apparent interest in meditation is inspired by a wish to strip away the delusions of the ego as much as to ease competitive stress in order to be better able to compete in their workplaces and other interactions.

..this is what the Dhammakaya movement do and find popularity amongst the mid-upper class...aim for success in this material world.

As for the Vessantara Jataka..... I have absolute faith and confidence in the teachings of my teacher LP Jaran who i am convinced is Arahant and therefore beyond ego and trying to fool people.

I first read about him through the book by a Thai author which she later translated partly into English as 'Fruit of Karma.'

She continued the series of five books about his life...written in novel form...but the events and facts were all there...(if you are prepared to accept them.)

The first in the series (the first book she wrote became the third in the series) starts as Jaran is a boy living with his grandma. She was devout and held annual chantings of the Vessantara Jakata at her home, considered to be great merit if one listened to at least one verse and especially the whole lot which takes a relay of monks to chant over 12 hours. To prevent the obstinate boy from escaping she would tie him to a leg of the house. later he declared it all a lie since there was a part which described the beings called Makaliphon (or Nariphon) and so strange that he refused to believe they could exist.

The god Indra created these beings and the forest they inhabit (the Himmaphan forest...which still exists as these beings do.)

Eventually the boy Jaran ordained as monk and has remained in the robes since. at the age of 45 he met a Sinhalese monk in a cave in Sri lanka who had with him one of these beings so was able to examine it and learn about them from the monk who had visited the forest. he later became the caretaker for two of these beings when he returned to his temple in Thailand.

if anyone wants me to continue the synopsis I will do so...

as Shakespeare said...'there are stranger things existing upon the earth than appear in our philosophy..'

[hookedondhamma]

Please continue!!! In the meantime I will have to find some if those books you are typing about.

[fabianfred]

the series of books are in Thai..

Author Suchitra Onkhom or Suddhassa Onkhom

1. มักกะลีผล

2. นารีผล

3. สัตว์โลกย่อมเป็นไปตามกรรม (this one first 40 of 80 chapters became the book 'Fruit of Karma')

4. วัฏจักรชีวิต

5. ความหลงในสงสาร

if you cannot read Thai but understand it OK then you can find the books on mp3..

I have the first three as files to download on my 4shared account ...here.. http://www.4shared.c...l#dir=226927310

let me know if you have a problem with the link and I'll give one for each file..

called Makariphon, Nariphon and SatLok

Edited December 22, 2012 by fabianfred

[fabianfred]

The Himmaphan forest exists....but not in the human realm...so you could overfly it and not see it...in the area of the Himalayas. It is a place sort of between realms and can only be reached by those yogis etc. who can meditate to reach the fourth jhana and are able to fly there.

As we know...being able to attain the fourth jhana is still Lokiya and can be lost, unlike the four ariya states which are Lokutra and cannot be lost. Arahants might still not have attained to the fourth jhana, whereas those who have attained to the fourth jhana might still be ordinary worldlings and therefore still full of defilements.

Indra created the Himmaphan forest for Vessantara and his wife and children to live in the sala he also made. She would go out into the forest to collect fruits, but might be in danger from the lustful yogis, so in order to protect her Indra created twelve special trees called makaliphon trees. They bore fruit whenever she went out to collect fruit. The fruit are in the form of young girls and hang by stems from their golden hair. They are exactly like young 15 year old girls in form and even have the same internal organs as humans, except that being fruit they have no bones. They are like other beings in the heaven realms, beautiful, lovely smell, sing beautifully, and the yogis would take them to their abodes and make love to them...after which they fell into a sleep for 4 months and lost their powers (the yogis that is.)

After four days hanging from the trees the Makaliphon fruit would menstruate and afte seven days fall down to the ground, and over time gradually dessicate like ordinary fruit do.

these are two which LP jaran took care of for some time... but now are in another temple in Singhburi..

Edited December 22, 2012 by fabianfred

[cheeryble]

It seems to me that the core principle of renunciation has been lost. Renunciation opens the door to liberation, renunciation leads one through the door to liberation, renunciation closes the door to suffering. It must be practiced moment by moment, for always.

Does that mean I have to forego my carrot cake every 4pm?

[fabianfred]

It seems to me that the core principle of renunciation has been lost. Renunciation opens the door to liberation, renunciation leads one through the door to liberation, renunciation closes the door to suffering. It must be practiced moment by moment, for always.

Does that mean I have to forego my carrot cake every 4pm?

if you have it daily...it is an addiction which leads to craving and suffering when you cannot get it...

nothing wrong with carrot cake...its your need for it which is the problem..

[cheeryble]

This opens an interesting discussion.

I am a great admirer of the core Buddhist teachings, but have decided that in fact a human being doesn't need to have everything perfect to have a perfect state of mind, and that a "perfect" state of mind is by no means necessary. In fact I think it is just fine to observe the human condition and mental states as by their nature never quite what we want.......that is the nature if dukkha.......but just realise dukkha exists, things are never "quite right", that all our problems arise from the reification of concept. If we accept that and live in as reasonable an equanimity as we can we're doing just fine.

The human psychophysical mechanism has developed to tolerate everything that comes at it and still come out with enough positivity to get by happily. We don't have to stifle our desires, just look upon them kindly and see what's happening.

[hookedondhamma]

That is far out ... And i have a guess it is going to be extremely difficult to get those books. But no problem, I can read and understand Thai. Amazing, thanks for posting that.

[Xangsamhua]

This actually has a personal meaning to me as I intended on reading the entire book at the hotel but when it started out with a man on a flying white elephant I decided not to. Can you blame me ?

No. Your response seems perfectly valid to me. If I did not have a comparative theology background and picked up a book about Sikhism that began by telling me that Guru Nanak spent three days under water in the river before emerging to teach, I would either put the book down or proceed in a skeptical frame of mind.

I didn't know about the book you refer to in Thai hotels, but as Fabianfred has pointed out, the Vessantara Jataka is a very important work indeed in Thai culture, and its messages have been taught as fundamental to leading a worthwhile life as a Buddhist householder in Thailand.

It's true that many people now are very skeptical of teaching that is presented mythically. They think that people are trying to put the wool over their eyes or that such people would believe anything if it had traditional authority behind it. But ancient teaching was presented in that form.

To me, as long as it's not claimed as historical fact, I have no problem with myth as a framework for religious teaching. The problem is that ordained teachers in the different world religions present the myths (e.g. the infancy narratives about Jesus) as if they actually occurred that way. Even the pope in his recent book on the infancy narratives has had to remind his readers that these stories are not historical recounts; they are simply vehicles for getting important points across about the special nature of Christ. Buddhist myths have the same intent.

But modern man would simply ask: Why present anything mythically at all? Why not just cut to the chase and tell it like it is? Modern man, however, is not ancient man, and the world religions emerged in antiquity.

[fabianfred]

That is far out ... And i have a guess it is going to be extremely difficult to get those books. But no problem, I can read and understand Thai. Amazing, thanks for posting that.

The whole set of books are available at DK or Asia Books.

At the link i gave is the first one also as a text file . http://www.4shared.com/rar/dIPWetSV/satlok-_.html?

[MrRealDeal]

Thankx for that ..... I guess I will go ahead a try to read it next time with a different frame of mind

[cheeryble]

This opens an interesting discussion.

Well, I thought it might open an interesting discussion, and it's not the only constructive criticism I have of "Buddhism" :-)

[Jawnie]

This opens an interesting discussion.

I am a great admirer of the core Buddhist teachings, but have decided that in fact a human being doesn't need to have everything perfect to have a perfect state of mind, and that a "perfect" state of mind is by no means necessary. In fact I think it is just fine to observe the human condition and mental states as by their nature never quite what we want.......that is the nature if dukkha.......but just realise dukkha exists, things are never "quite right", that all our problems arise from the reification of concept. If we accept that and live in as reasonable an equanimity as we can we're doing just fine.

The human psychophysical mechanism has developed to tolerate everything that comes at it and still come out with enough positivity to get by happily. We don't have to stifle our desires, just look upon them kindly and see what's happening.

"We don't have to stifle our desires, just look upon them kindly and see what's happening."

I respectfully disagree, you DO need to 'stifle' your desires"...or rather, "just looking upon them" is not enough. Renunciation means to give them up completely. Because we typically are so completely engrossed and attached to our desires they persist and persist and persist. This is why renunciation is so important...it is the direct method for releasing consciousness bound up in its attachment to desire and renunciation needs to be practiced over and over and over. It is simply mental gymnastics of the ego to say it is not necessary to give up desires, it's the ego trying to save itself.

[Xangsamhua]

The secret of life? "Renounce and enjoy." (Gandhi, responding to an interviewer.)

Gandhi was paraphrasing the second sentence of the Isha Upanishad: "Leaving the transient, find joy in the eternal."

[khaowong1]

the series of books are in Thai..

Author Suchitra Onkhom or Suddhassa Onkhom

1. มักกะลีผล

2. นารีผล

3. สัตว์โลกย่อมเป็นไปตามกรรม (this one first 40 of 80 chapters became the book 'Fruit of Karma')

4. วัฏจักรชีวิต

5. ความหลงในสงสาร

if you cannot read Thai but understand it OK then you can find the books on mp3..

I have the first three as files to download on my 4shared account ...here.. http://www.4shared.c...l#dir=226927310

let me know if you have a problem with the link and I'll give one for each file..

called Makariphon, Nariphon and SatLok

Thanks Fred.. I will download and read them.. I read LP Jaran's books in English some time ago. before I was a monk.. Now I will probably understand them better. thanks again

Phra Bill

[cheeryble]

I respectfully disagree, you DO need to 'stifle' your desires"...or rather, "just looking upon them" is not enough. Renunciation means to give them up completely. Because we typically are so completely engrossed and attached to our desires they persist and persist and persist. This is why renunciation is so important...it is the direct method for releasing consciousness bound up in its attachment to desire and renunciation needs to be practiced over and over and over. It is simply mental gymnastics of the ego to say it is not necessary to give up desires, it's the ego trying to save itself.

I hear what you're saying......but this and especially your first post sound very much to me like you're about to do battle. I almost expect you to start self flagellating.

IMO battle is the last thing a follower of the Buddha would want to do, as instead of removing ego it reinforces it. The thrust of Buddha's words is built around seeing things as they really are, explained in two essential texts which do the opposite of reinforcement....they are the removal truck of ego:

1. recognition of concepts for what they are, ie not realities----the earth-shaking Diamond Sutra (with great backup in a Survey of Paramattha Dhammas.....paramattha dhammas being, as you probably know, realities as they are happening, first person, present tense, which concepts certainly don't fulfil)

2. recognition of the illusion of self---Satipathanna Sutta, a structured program recommended to Ananda above all else by the man himself for seeing through the nama and rupa, the mental and the physical processes one so easily, yet wrongly, accepts as self.

Perhaps when I said

"We don't have to stifle our desires, just look upon them kindly and see what's happening."

I didn't point out well that I was suggesting detachment.

.....hope that makes sense.......

Edited December 23, 2012 by cheeryble

[rockyysdt]

I almost expect you to start self flagellating.

IMO battle is the last thing a follower of the Buddha would want to do, as instead of removing ego it reinforces it. The thrust of Buddha's words is built around seeing things as they really are, explained in two essential texts which do the opposite of reinforcement....they are the removal truck of ego:

1. recognition of concepts for what they are, ie not realities----the earth-shaking Diamond Sutra (with great backup in a Survey of Paramattha Dhammas.....paramattha dhammas being, as you probably know, realities as they are happening, first person, present tense, which concepts certainly don't fulfil)

2. recognition of the illusion of self---Satipathanna Sutta, a structured program recommended to Ananda above all else by the man himself for seeing through the nama and rupa, the mental and the physical processes one so easily, yet wrongly, accepts as self.

Perhaps when I said

"We don't have to stifle our desires, just look upon them kindly and see what's happening."

I didn't point out well that I was suggesting detachment.

.....hope that makes sense.......

My understanding is that there is a subtle but important difference between "detachment", and "non attachment".

I don't think the Buddha was teaching detachment, but rather awareness of things such as obsession, addiction, dependence, fanaticism, habit and others.

Except for some things, total detachment is not what the Buddha was teaching.

Having said that, if desires revolve around greed, delusion and aversion, then we should abstain from them.

Some good examples are:

1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life. Pāṇātipātā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given. Adinnādānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct Kāmesumicchācāra veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech. Musāvādā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyām

5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drink that causes heedlessness. Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi.

As Jawnie indicated, observing yourself is not enough.

The eightfold path is a total package.

Edited December 24, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

It's hard for modern people to take a book that starts with a section about a man on a flying elephant very seriously, even if the material after that makes perfect sence.

I would expect as people understand flying elephants don't exist their would be a drop in people believing in the books that promote that idea.

You are right - there are lots of bad books out there - about everything. I suggest looking for a different book on Buddhism if that is your interest. There are plenty of others. However, all Buddhist schools have texts that include non-rationale and rather fantastic myths and stories - it's part of the territory when engaging Buddhism. It takes some study, time, and thought to weed things out about myths.

On the other hand, some of the stories are literally true...knowing which comes with learning. I read a story about a Tibetan boy, a tulku (re-incarnated holy man) in the early 20th Century. One of his duties as a young boy was to fetch water from the river each day. He would always do it very quickly...nobody in the monastery could figure out how he did it so quickly. One day, his tutor asked the boy how he did it. The boy's answer was that he flew to and from the river because it was faster than walking. The tutor asked him not to do that anymore.

Hahaha? Maybe, but the story is not a joke or a myth - it is a true story.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Jawnie