Democrats Query Need To Change Article 309: Thai Constitution

[webfact]

Democrats query need to change Article 309

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The Democrat Party yesterday demanded Pheu Thai explain why it wants to amend Article 309 of the Constitution and why it considers the amendment would not affect former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime, including the setting up of the Assets Examination Committee against Thaksin.

Democrat MP Ong-art Klampaiboon said government should explain clearly why it wanted to amend Article 309 and how the involvement would or would not affect the legal cases against Thaksin.

Ong-art said Pheu Thai was now misleading the people to think that those who are opposed to an amendment to Article 309, supported the dictatorial coup regime.

The Democrat MP said an amendment or deletion of Article 309 would cause legal complications.

"The Democrats see that the planned amendment of Article 309 would seek to invalidate all legal cases stemming from the coup. So, all the post-coup investigations will be rescinded and this will destroy the rule of law and justice," Ong-art said.

He said democracy would not depend on Article 309 but on the behaviour of conspicuous politicians.

Ong-art said Thaksin told a red-shirt rally on Saturday it would be easy to reach the required 24-million voter turnout for a referendum. He said the statement showed Thaksin would do anything to amend the charter for his own interest.

But Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said yesterday Pheu Thai would not target Article 309 but seek to set up a new drafting assembly. Prompong said it would be up to the new CDA to decide how to the write a new charter.

Prompong added that amendment of Article 309 would not affect Thaksin's cases. He said the cases against Thaksin would continue in line with the law after the amendment. He said the reason for amending Article 309 was because it provided legitimacy to the 2006 coup.

Prompong said the Pheu Thai would discuss charter amendments at a meeting tomorrow and would consider the decision of a government committee in charge of holding a public referendum, headed by PM's Office Minister Varathep Rattanakorn, which will meet today. The decision of the Pheu Thai meeting would be cited for further discussion during a party seminar on January 6 and 7, Prompong said.

-- The Nation 2012-12-24

[OzMick]

Would changing 309 absolve him from the latest charge, the theft by abuse of power of almost 10 billion baht? I suppose we should consider that a bonus for his great performance as PM.

[righteous]

"Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime".. ^^...The operative phrase here being "The Coup regime"..........any other questions?

But for the PTP, there is a silver lining to this cloud. With the Democrat Party linking itself so closely to defending this "coup regime", certainly positions them accordingly. I'm sure this is not lost on the majority electorate.

Just solidifies the notion, if it needs solidification, that throughout all this political to-and-fro, following the bouncing ball, always suggests that it is the Democrats who are the principle benficiaries of coups. Is it any wonder therefore, they are defending 309 tooth and nail, and trying the Thaksin change-of-conversation trick behind which to hide their true motives....not to me it isn't.

Edited December 24, 2012 by righteous

[Siripon]

Thaksin wants to be absolved of his crimes so Article 309 must go.

He wants to emasculate the power of the independent agencies for checks and balances, the Constitution Court, the NACC, the EC.

It's the duty of the Demiocrats to inform Thai people of this.

Thaksin thinks, Pheua Thai do. Nobody else in Pheua Thai has a voice, Thaksin, red shirt democracy style.

[Ragzilb]

Why do people put up with all this circus crazy BS. Well Merry Christmas to all of you on ThaiVISA and I hope the new year will bring heart and brain into this country.

[OzMick]

"Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime".. ^^...The operative phrase here being "The Coup regime"..........any other questions?

But for the PTP, there is a silver lining to this cloud. With the Democrat Party linking itself so closely to defending this "coup regime", certainly positions them accordingly. I'm sure this is not lost on the majority electorate.

Just solidifies the notion, if it needs solidification, that throughout all this political to-and-fro, following the bouncing ball, always suggests that it is the Democrats who are the principle benficiaries of coups. Is it any wonder therefore, they are defending 309 tooth and nail, and trying the Thaksin change-of-conversation trick behind which to hide their true motives....not to me it isn't.

The coup occurred to stop Thaksin's rampant and blatant corruption, and 309 was introduced to increase/introduce anti-corruption measures. But forget about the criminal, concentrate on the coup.

Edited December 24, 2012 by OzMick

[seajae]

"Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime".. ^^...The operative phrase here being "The Coup regime"..........any other questions?

But for the PTP, there is a silver lining to this cloud. With the Democrat Party linking itself so closely to defending this "coup regime", certainly positions them accordingly. I'm sure this is not lost on the majority electorate.

Just solidifies the notion, if it needs solidification, that throughout all this political to-and-fro, following the bouncing ball, always suggests that it is the Democrats who are the principle benficiaries of coups. Is it any wonder therefore, they are defending 309 tooth and nail, and trying the Thaksin change-of-conversation trick behind which to hide their true motives....not to me it isn't.

Yes, lets not look at the truth of the matter, just use a bit of innuendo so that thaksin can get what he wants. I have nothing against anyones views but yours are simply biased to buggery, this is thaksin at his best still trying to rip off the thai people for his benefit, its a pity you are too one-eyed to see the truth and just toe the party line.

[OzMick]

"Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime".. ^^...The operative phrase here being "The Coup regime"..........any other questions?

But for the PTP, there is a silver lining to this cloud. With the Democrat Party linking itself so closely to defending this "coup regime", certainly positions them accordingly. I'm sure this is not lost on the majority electorate.

Just solidifies the notion, if it needs solidification, that throughout all this political to-and-fro, following the bouncing ball, always suggests that it is the Democrats who are the principle benficiaries of coups. Is it any wonder therefore, they are defending 309 tooth and nail, and trying the Thaksin change-of-conversation trick behind which to hide their true motives....not to me it isn't.

Which coups benefitted the Democrats? 1977 when they were deposed by the coup; 1991 when in the following election they only managed 44 seats, somewhere way back in history, or only in the little red handbook?

[ballpoint]

"Article 309 endorsed all actions of the 2006 coup regime".. ^^...The operative phrase here being "The Coup regime"..........any other questions?

But for the PTP, there is a silver lining to this cloud. With the Democrat Party linking itself so closely to defending this "coup regime", certainly positions them accordingly. I'm sure this is not lost on the majority electorate.

Just solidifies the notion, if it needs solidification, that throughout all this political to-and-fro, following the bouncing ball, always suggests that it is the Democrats who are the principle benficiaries of coups. Is it any wonder therefore, they are defending 309 tooth and nail, and trying the Thaksin change-of-conversation trick behind which to hide their true motives....not to me it isn't.

The coup occurred to stop Thaksin's rampant and blatant corruption, and 309 was introduced to increase/introduce anti-corruption measures. But forget about the criminal, concentrate on the coup.

Indeed. It's not fair, whenever a conman/thief/murderer is arrested and imprisoned it's always the law abiding people who benefit. Why can't the criminal win just once?

[Fortunate1]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

[tingtongfarang]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

[righteous]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

Edited December 24, 2012 by righteous

[tingtongfarang]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

Quite obvious to most that the murder charges against a couple of the democrat leaders are a plain and simple blackmail attempt by ptp and nothing more.

[righteous]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

Quite obvious to most that the murder charges against a couple of the democrat leaders are a plain and simple blackmail attempt by ptp and nothing more.

Those who had family members affected look at this entirely different.

[Siripon]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

Quite obvious to most that the murder charges against a couple of the democrat leaders are a plain and simple blackmail attempt by ptp and nothing more.

Those who had family members affected look at this entirely different.

For the dead it's too late, but for those living, they need to think why did the protest begin within one month of Thaksin having his money seized and a full 15 months after Apisit came to power.

They must wonder why Thaksin said he no longer needed the red shirts' help any longer.

It's a terrible feeling for a human to realize he has been used, but one day they will.

[dickyknee]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

I see changing the conversation is also necessary for your agenda.

[rubl]

Prompong added that amendment of Article 309 would not affect Thaksin's cases. He said the cases against Thaksin would continue in line with the law after the amendment.

I probably read too much into this. K. Prompong surely didn't want to suggest that the cases against k. Thaksin which await his return can continue after law changes make his return more 'likely' ?

[Chrisswe]

Because that's the only way for sa called Democratic Party to survive !! if you read the constitution statement , last edition translated in English, then every one understand.

[Chrisswe]

Because that's the only way for sa called Democratic Party to survive !! if you read the constitution statement , last edition translated in English, then every one understand.

[rubl]

BTW regarding the 'reconciliation' bills, the only difference between General Matubhum Party leader MP Sonthi and Pheu Thai party list MP and UDD leader Nattawut was said to be

"Natthawut, a deputy agriculture minister, said his bill was similar to Sonthi's, but there was a clause that excludes people involved in terrorism and crimes that took lives from getting an amnesty."

http://www.nationmul...s-30183029.html

The other newspaper put the highlights as

- any unlawful activity related to political gatherings between Sept. 15th, 2005 to May 10th, 2011 will be legalised. Both anti-government protesters and government officers involved in such accidents will be pardoned

- ongoing investigations in these activities will be dropped. Prosecuters will drop charges and the court will dismiss ongoing trials. Convicts whose cases have been finalised will be granted amnesty.

- all individuals affected by legal proceedings initiated by the CRES, the coup maker, or the agencies installed after the coup will be treated like they have never been accused, tried and convicted.

- political bans of all political party executives following party dissolution verdict will be annulled.

Surely this has nothing to do with k. Thaksin. His trial and conviction had nothing to do with politics, only with applying the law.

[chrisrazz]

I recall the current constitution being offered to plebiscite with a take it you won't get another chance from those who remain absolved from all responsibility for their actions.

[whybother]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

As far as Thaksin and his supporters is concerned, the fact that it affects his criminal record is the ONLY issue. He couldn't care less about the junta.

That's why he is pushing for the reconciliation / white wash bill.

[khunken]

First, attempting to punish Abhisit for the death of some innocents (& some not-so-innocent) is obviously just a witch-hunt. PTP's amnesty push (which is still in limbo) would absolve all from so-called crimes in the 2010 riots so they are quite prepared to offer an amnesty as long as Thaksin gets one too.

Second, removing or changing Article 309 doesn't mean anything except re-writing history & 'accidently' getting Thaksin off the hook. Virtually every member of the cabinet has declared that giving Thaksin an amnesty was a priority (more likely a requirement for being appointed) so there is no credibility when a spokesman tries to deny it.

I think there should be a holiday when a member of this government actually tells the truth.

[khunken]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

The military don't need a 'get out of jail free' card. There is a snowballs chance that any members of the military would be tried for the coup. It is only the gullible who believe that the Thaksin whitewash is anything but primary.

[Thait Spot]

We, the Pheu Thai party, believe that it would be a rather nice idea to rewrite the constitution. We would like to set up an independent Constitution Drafting Assembly to disappear for some time and come back with a document that will miraculously make being a Thai somehow better than it was before.

This reminds me a bit of the album cover for Pink Floyd's Animals and quite a few of its lyrics.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[righteous]

One can spin it every way times a million, but a coup-based constitution is coup-based.

I am not aware of any nation, who when they rectified a self-serving coup for the perps., via a return to Electoral Democracy, let the equally self-serving constitution remain the law of the land.

Just doesn't happen!

Edited December 24, 2012 by righteous

[rubl]

One can spin it every way times a million, but a coup-based constitution is coup-based.

I am not aware of any nation, who when they rectified a self-serving coup for the perps.via a return to Electoral Democracy, let the equally self-serving constitution remain the law of the land.

Just doesn't happen!

Strictly speaking the constitution is not coup-based, not even junta-based. Too many experts involved. The only really 'hot point' is article 309.

BTW "Deconstructing Thailand's (New) Eighteenth Constitution"

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/Thailand-Eighteeth-Consititution.html

[whybother]

One can spin it every way times a million, but a coup-based constitution is coup-based.

I am not aware of any nation, who when they rectified a self-serving coup for the perps., via a return to Electoral Democracy, let the equally self-serving constitution remain the law of the land.

Just doesn't happen!

"spin it every way a million times"

Does your propaganda manual have that many pages?

Sent from my HTC phone.

[khunken]

One can spin it every way times a million, but a coup-based constitution is coup-based.

I am not aware of any nation, who when they rectified a self-serving coup for the perps.via a return to Electoral Democracy, let the equally self-serving constitution remain the law of the land.

Just doesn't happen!

I am not aware of any democracy that couldn't recognise that a constitution accepted by it's people in a referendum is legal.

Spinning it just what you do - and spinning lies from the ruling party is no different to a party hack

[animatic]

The final paragraph of the 2007 Constitution, Section 309, legalises the coup of 2006 and all actions by the military junta prior to and after the coup which overthrew the TS government.

It is the military's Get Out of Jail Free card. The fact that it affects TS criminal record is secondary.

Changing the conversation is very neccesary for some agenda's.

To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations. This association will affect them very negatively in future elections.

Right now,Thaksin's politically motivated criminal record is the least of their problems. The alleged murder charges against their own leader is something they are also busy "changing the conversation about".

Quite obvious to most that the murder charges against a couple of the democrat leaders are a plain and simple blackmail attempt by ptp and nothing more.

Those who had family members affected look at this entirely different.

Of course everyone wants someone to blame,

they never blame their family members from being foolish enough

to stay in a dangerous place too long for the wrong reasons.

"To see the Democrat Party come out so furiously in favor of maintaining the legal status of the coup and all actions by the military junta shows their affiliations."

Not furiously for supporting the coup, but for not letting the AES, as a now defunct agency,

be disemboweled after the fact, and then used as a pretext, though not a valid legal reason,

to let Thaksin off the hook.

The incorrectly spurious argument might go:

'AES is no longer constitutionally legal, after the fact,

then their findings are no longer constitutionally valid after the fact.

so no charges against Thaksin are not valid, regardless of fact'

An attempted Fruit Of A Poisoned Tree defense, with the aim of

permanently removing the information from prosecutorial hands.

This ignores the facst that :

The AES gathered and analyzed information, they did not CREATE the information.

When there was enough information to meet a legal threshold of criminality,

they passed that information on to the State Prosecutor.

The State Prosecutor then analyzed and presented that information,

after verifying it for himself, to the courts.

Neither the State Prosecutor or the Courts,

has been deemed illegal or invalidated under ANY constitution.

ipso facto, he Information they used is still valid, no matter who collected it and presented it to them.

A Somtam vendor on Sukhumvit soi 8 could accidentally find the paperwork, read it for what it is,

and present it to the State Prosecutor and the INFORMATION containing is of no lesser value

than if it came from the AES, Shipping Moo, or Nopadom's personal file cabinet.

Once in the State Prosecutors hands it makes little difference by whom it was collated.

It is not the ONLY INFORMATION that the State Prosecutor could or would be using.

This same factual analysis pertains to the DSI or the average Police General.

They may or may not have the same powers and functions or scruples,

but it only has real traction when the State Prosecutor gets it and acts on it.

Edited December 24, 2012 by animatic