Apple Cider Vinegar For Weight Loss ... Any Feedback?

[tropo]

The assumption that because they are fat they must eat like pigs, the implication they are all weak people lacking the restraint of thin people. I wouldn't have thought this is the place for that kind of anti-fat people vitriol.

Unless there is some underlying medical condition I'm quite comfortable to make the assumption that fat people who diet and remain thin have a lot more will power than fat people who diet and fail.

I know, you want to believe that successful dieters have special genes.

[tropo]

Why do you feel the need to be so insulting?

What's the deal here exactly? Is the feeling if you don't tow the orthodox party line that obesity is only about simple calorie math then you aren't really welcome? To me that comes off like true believer syndrome.

Sorry for the confusion....I'm speaking specifically about your offerings on diabetes and pre-diabetes.

[Jingthing]

The assumption that because they are fat they must eat like pigs, the implication they are all weak people lacking the restraint of thin people. I wouldn't have thought this is the place for that kind of anti-fat people vitriol.

Unless there is some underlying medical condition I'm quite comfortable to make the assumption that fat people who diet and remain thin have a lot more will power than fat people who diet and fail.

I know, you want to believe that successful dieters have special genes.

Not exactly. Again with your silly assumptions. I think every fat or thin person is an individual with many different complex biological factors including their environment and socioeconomic situation. In other words, it is unfair to make such general assumptions for all fat people. I am certain some quite fat people have massive will power of self denial just to not get MORE fat. Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Why do you feel the need to be so insulting?

What's the deal here exactly? Is the feeling if you don't tow the orthodox party line that obesity is only about simple calorie math then you aren't really welcome? To me that comes off like true believer syndrome.

Sorry for the confusion....I'm speaking specifically about your offerings on diabetes and pre-diabetes.

I was speaking more generally. Your calling me a pig and accusing me of stuffing my face endlessly. Can you really justify that?

[robblok]

Giving up a Mars bar everyday is going to be too hard for me as I haven't had a Mars bar since I was about age 10.

JT ever heard of a matter of speech, but 150 cals is not much., but did you read the part where exercise helps and greatly increases your chances to keep it off. Not to mention the other benefits of exercise.

[Jingthing]

Giving up a Mars bar everyday is going to be too hard for me as I haven't had a Mars bar since I was about age 10.

JT ever heard of a matter of speech, but 150 cals is not much., but did you read the part where exercise helps and greatly increases your chances to keep it off. Not to mention the other benefits of exercise.

Yes. For me that would be hard as except for the restaurant meal which is quite usually but not always pretty healthy (think spicy ethnic) I eat rather limited calorie breakfasts and home cooked meals. I rarely eat desserts, eat little bread, very low meat intake at home mostly skinless chicken breast or canned tuna, and you'll never find butter in my house among countless other things I have completely or mostly given up for life ALREADY. So relative to my current intake levels, that would actually be much. Exercise yes I could kick it up. I do walk and also have a home rowing machine which I do use religiously but I could do probably a lot more. Never said I don't have room for improvement. On that note, I could probably cut down the PORTION somewhat on the home cooking (breakfast already small) but on restaurant meals portions are usually under control (restaurant portions in Thailand much smaller than America). But based on my personal medical profile and history, I think I am being entirely rational to accept myself as what I am, a fat adult. Actually for me, I think a major weight loss at my more advancing age (slowed metabolism) and medical profile would feel like starvation and I know for a fact that's stupid because it BACKFIRES. Cheers. I want to be as healthy as I can within realistic expectations. I think that is just as valid if not more valid than pushing a dream that most people fail at.

The trouble with trying to make fat people feel like failures is this. Most fat people WILL fail. We only have one life. Sometimes fat people will die sooner, not always, and a recent study actually shows Level 1 obese people actually are better off than thin people in some ways. In any case, in this one life, for the majority destined to fail, should that life be lived in a CONSTANT endless failed stuggle to reach a thin ideal or would that life be better lived accepting reality and seeking health and happiness where they are at: FAT.

I am not talking Fat Power or Fat Liberation here. I am talking about the psychological damage people feel living their entire lives trying something that just isn't in the cards to ever happen. That's a CRAPPY thing for an entire life to be about.

Then there is surgery. That's a hard one because for the most part that DOES work. Sure I've looked into it. It sounds horrible and in America I don't think I would be considered a candidate for that. In Thailand they will mostly take anyone with the cash, but that doesn't mean everyone with the cash should do it.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Thing is JT i really have no idea what you eat calorie wise and you probably don't either. I am way to fanatical for the normal range of people as i weigh off my food and check it. But it did teach me a lot about how deceptive some things can be calorie wise.

Anyway if you accept how you are then that is good, i have no problems with overweight, just with people wanting to loose weight but not do a thing.

Just curious what kind of rower do you have as i have one too and use it a lot. I think you would get scared to hear what i eat and my activity level.

on a day

- 2 boiled eggs

- 45 gram musli

- 15 grams flax seed oil

- 1 scoop of protein powder

- few hands of frozen blueberries

- 250 grams of sugarfree yoghurt

- 300 grams of beef burgers (grilled) the 300 gram is the uncooked weight

-280 grams of mixed vegetables

-200 ml of milk

-60 grams of oats

in total that is about 2000 calories if i ad a bit of fruit or something else.

Edited January 11, 2013 by robblok

[Jingthing]

I couldn't abide a diet like that. Yes I do LOVE flavor too much for that. It is extremely important to me for psychological well being. That's not the same thing as gluttony (need for large volume of food).

On my actual situation, yes theoretically I could quit the restaurant meals which are obviously more problematical as you aren't in control of the ingredients.

However, this is where I reject the simple math equation of the obesity trap yet again.

So supposing I did that. Two things would happen. First I would become quite depressed because for me personally whether you think that is deviant or not, it would be a severe deprivation of flavor and pleasure. What are we living for? To just exist like a prisoner on gruel and water? Some people just don't CARE about flavor and food experiences the same as many people don't care so much for sex. Secondly, assuming a lowering of daily caloric intake was achieved which could be done skipping the restaurants, knowing my history and now worse than ever as older, all that would do after an initial weight loss is RESET my metabolism forcing me to a starvation level to lose any more weight that would again, be like an experience of starvation. I can starve for some time. I did once for a month totally. It was interesting (and crazy). But there are limits. I know you will say it is just more excuses. I say it is accepting reality. You can say I am CHOOSING to be fat in exchange for my food pleasure fixes. I would buy that if I believed that the deprivation would actually work in the long run, obviously I don't believe it and think it would backfire. I'm the voice here of the silent majority who have tried many times, failed many times, and just don't see a real answer anymore excepting surgery or a future scientific breakthrough. My view isn't actually all that radical. I reckon it's shared by most bariatric surgeons.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

JT, if that is your choice then be happy with it, i can understand people who like food. I do enjoy going to the sizzler once in a while enjoying the salad bar and the meat. I do like going to a oishi style bufet with lots of salmon. Its not that i never eat anything else then this. Its just that this is like 80-90% of my diet.

I do love sex *LOL* and actually being lean has helped a lot there too. But life is for living and if you are not happy living it like i do then don't. I would only change it if it seriously brought me in danger. I mean if the overweight would kill me. Anyway like i said its choices we made, i used to love to drink a bit now i don't. I know i would gain weight easy if i started drinking sessions again.

One other thing, the food that i eat i do love.. granted there are things that are even nicer as this.

[Jingthing]

I'm still loving the ACV. As said before, it is reinforcing my awareness of my food choices. I already had that awareness but doing this enhances that somewhat. I don't know why that would fade as long as I'm doing the ACV. Don't be shocked if I lose a LITTLE weight now.

[robblok]

I'm still loving the ACV. As said before, it is reinforcing my awareness of my food choices. I already had that awareness but doing this enhances that somewhat. I don't know why that would fade as long as I'm doing the ACV. Don't be shocked if I lose a LITTLE weight now.

JT, but that is the way to go, make good choices. I wont be shocked, i would actually wish you to loose it. That we don't agree on some things is normal.

But by making good choices you have a good chance to reduce weight especially if you see it long term. Short term its hard.

[tropo]

I couldn't abide a diet like that. Yes I do LOVE flavor too much for that. It is extremely important to me for psychological well being. That's not the same thing as gluttony (need for large volume of food).

On my actual situation, yes theoretically I could quit the restaurant meals which are obviously more problematical as you aren't in control of the ingredients.

However, this is where I reject the simple math equation of the obesity trap yet again.

So supposing I did that. Two things would happen. First I would become quite depressed because for me personally whether you think that is deviant or not, it would be a severe deprivation of flavor and pleasure. What are we living for? To just exist like a prisoner on gruel and water? Some people just don't CARE about flavor and food experiences the same as many people don't care so much for sex. Secondly, assuming a lowering of daily caloric intake was achieved which could be done skipping the restaurants, knowing my history and now worse than ever as older, all that would do after an initial weight loss is RESET my metabolism forcing me to a starvation level to lose any more weight that would again, be like an experience of starvation. I can starve for some time. I did once for a month totally. It was interesting (and crazy). But there are limits. I know you will say it is just more excuses. I say it is accepting reality. You can say I am CHOOSING to be fat in exchange for my food pleasure fixes. I would buy that if I believed that the deprivation would actually work in the long run, obviously I don't believe it and think it would backfire. I'm the voice here of the silent majority who have tried many times, failed many times, and just don't see a real answer anymore excepting surgery or a future scientific breakthrough. My view isn't actually all that radical. I reckon it's shared by most bariatric surgeons.

At the end of the day your fat level and physique in general will mirror your lifestyle. If you like to dine at restaurants while leading a fairly sedentary lifestyle (omg, another assumption based on the amount of time you probably spend on your computer) your body will adapt to that.

If you insist on maintaining that lifestyle, I agree 100% that diets will not succeed in the long run.

If you're a sports oriented person who is very active who eats to fuel the body and not for pleasure, that will show in the mirror as a leaner, more muscular physique.

If you're a marathon runner you'll look like a marathon runner. If you're weight lifter you'll look like a weight lifter.

The body is very good at adapting to what you require of it.

Here's a little story to illustrate why I'm under 10% body fat and you're not...

I was having a coffee in a Walking Street coffee/ice cream shop last night. My wife decided to buy an ice cream. She gave me the bottom of the cone to finish. I was craving an ice cream yet I decided not to buy one... I resisted.

I don't care whether you're into Mars bars, ice creams or whatever, the point is that I often resist fattening foods that I enjoy and even crave.

This is will power. I'm still doing this after a year of getting strict and I'm not finding it all that difficult even after a full year. I'm not depressed about it either. What's more, I could eat some ice creams without worrying about fattening up again because I do plenty of exercise too.

I have lousy genes. It's not about any talents that I'm keeping secret. As I said, I have insulin resistance too. It's all about dedication to my goal of staying "lean 'n mean".

I agree fully that this type of dedication is probably only seen in 5% of dieters, but without it you are wasting your time.

There is no easy way.

A couple of days ago I invested 1600 on blood tests. I do this every 2 or 3 months along with more regular minor ones (eg CBC). I also spendt 2500 at Fascino for 3 boxes of testing strips for my glucometer. To get into shape requires investment, dedication and hard work. What have I got to show for it? 5 inches off my waist - that's what can happen when you keep blood sugar under control.

Edited January 11, 2013 by tropo

[Jingthing]

...

Here's a little story to illustrate why I'm under 10% body fat and you're not...

I was having a coffee in a Walking Street coffee/ice cream shop last night. My wife decided to buy an ice cream. She gave me the bottom of the cone to finish. I was craving an ice cream yet I decided not to buy one... I resisted.

I don't care whether you're into Mars bars, ice creams or whatever, the point is that I often resist fattening foods that I enjoy and even crave.

...

Guess what, dude? Something you would know if you actually bothered to read my posts instead of insisting on continuing with the superior dance gloating digs.

ME TOO!

Like you, I very often ALSO resist fattening foods that I enjoy and even crave!

Much more often than not actually.

No I am not perfect.

Recently I went out for Italian.

Do you think I wasn't tempted to order the pasta with CARBONARA sauce? I was. Thing is I NEVER order that.

Instead I ordered a marinated fish salad and a grilled lean meat, also avoiding ordering the FRIED potatoes.

I am especially good at avoiding FRIED foods.

Yes I like to eat out as stated. But USUALLY I make a point of ordering some of the less damaging food choices on the menu.

I'm into FLAVOR and SPICE. Doesn't need to be fatty.

Obviously, you are on a focused program. I am not. I don't believe in formal diets but I do believe being as conscious as possible about food choices. I don't even weigh myself, that's a trapping of the dieting obsession. But please don't go there to suggest just because a person is fat means they eat anything and everything they want day in and day out. Some do. Some thin people do. Not me. I couldn't get away with it. I'd be twice as big if I did. Scratch that -- three times as big.

Yes I like gelato. Yes I am tempted to order gelato when I pass a gelato business. Rarely I don't resist. More than I should. But the vast majority of times, I do resist, just like you, but no, not a 10 percent body fat "stud" like you and I know I never will be. You can continue to think you are something special with your tremendous sacrifices but you're just not. There are people much fatter than me making much bigger sacrifices than me who have no chance of ever being a thin person.

BTW, where do you go for blood tests? Do they have a test for celiac disease?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

You can continue to think you are something special with your tremendous sacrifices but you're just not.

Actually the sacrifices don't feel "tremendous". A new eating system can become easy to follow and routine with a bit of perseverance at the start.

I get my blood tests done at Pattaya Lab in Naklua. Best prices in town and he emails the results in a very easy to follow format.

A full lipid profile, kidney and liver function, and FBS and CBC costs 700 baht. If you're drinker then you should include the GGT for liver function... I think that adds about 200 to the price.

Thyroid tests as follows (you don't need to have all these done to get a basic idea of thyroid function):

T3

Tri-iodothyronine

300



T4

Thyroxine

300



Free T3

Free tri-iodothyronine

400



Free T4

Free thyroxine

300



TSH

Thyroid stimulating hormone

300



PTH

Parathyroid hormone

600

Edited January 11, 2013 by tropo

[ChiangMike]

I know the orthodox views that it's only about diet and exercise. I do not believe that and never will, but thanks for sharing.

I agree there is no magic pill and may never be. (Actually I think there will be but certainly not yet.) For the vast majority of people to hope for long term success, they're looking at bariatric surgery, and that's pretty horrible. Doctors who tell their fat patients, just go home and diet and exercise and can offer nothing else, they know full well their advice will fail for the vast majority of their patients, and that's a fact.

So let me get this straight - you don't believe in calorie reduction and exercise, but are willing to place faith in apple cider vinegar? Dang, I always liked reading your posts JT, but this is a bit...errrr....ummm.... disappointing. Why do you think Bariatric surgery works? It's very extreme and leaves the patient no other choice BUT to reduce calories. Eating less, or eating smart does work -- because people are too lazy to implement doesn't render it bullshit. I have a hell of a lot more respect for doctors who promote diet and exercise over those who prescribe surgery (and I work in healthcare).

Anyway, good luck. Whatever gets you through the night.

[Jingthing]

You can continue to think you are something special with your tremendous sacrifices but you're just not.

Actually the sacrifices don't feel "tremendous". A new eating system can become easy to follow and routine with a bit of perseverance at the start.

I get my blood tests done at Pattaya Lab in Naklua. Best prices in town and he emails the results in a very easy to follow format.

A full lipid profile, kidney and liver function, and FBS and CBC costs 700 baht. If you're drinker then you should include the GGT for liver function... I think that adds about 200 to the price.

Thyroid tests as follows (you don't need to have all these done to get a basic idea of thyroid function):

T3

Tri-iodothyronine

300



T4

Thyroxine

300



Free T3

Free tri-iodothyronine

400



Free T4

Free thyroxine

300



TSH

Thyroid stimulating hormone

300



PTH

Parathyroid hormone

600

I've been on thyroid hormone for decades. But thanks! I suspect celiac based on symptoms and family history but hard to get a definitive diagnosis. Due to my family history I assume pre-diabetes even though regular fasting diabetes screening is negative. That's another big reason I take care with food choices and do exercise and have done for decades. I think if I haven't done that, I would definitely be full diabetic probably 10 years ago. You are right to focus on blood sugar and pre-diabetes.

What do you suggest more than this?

http://www.livestron...betic-patients/

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I know the orthodox views that it's only about diet and exercise. I do not believe that and never will, but thanks for sharing.

I agree there is no magic pill and may never be. (Actually I think there will be but certainly not yet.) For the vast majority of people to hope for long term success, they're looking at bariatric surgery, and that's pretty horrible. Doctors who tell their fat patients, just go home and diet and exercise and can offer nothing else, they know full well their advice will fail for the vast majority of their patients, and that's a fact.

So let me get this straight - you don't believe in calorie reduction and exercise, but are willing to place faith in apple cider vinegar? Dang, I always liked reading your posts JT, but this is a bit...errrr....ummm.... disappointing. Why do you think Bariatric surgery works? It's very extreme and leaves the patient no other choice BUT to reduce calories. Eating less, or eating smart does work -- because people are too lazy to implement doesn't render it bullshit. I have a hell of a lot more respect for doctors who promote diet and exercise over those who prescribe surgery (and I work in healthcare).

Anyway, good luck. Whatever gets you through the night.

You don't have it straight at all. Again, a careful reading of my posts will tell you differently. Multiple times. I totally believe in being careful with your diet, reducing calorie intake, and exercise. I also totally believe there is a reason that the vast majority of obese adults will NEVER succeed with maintaining weight loss to ideal weight for the long term with those methods. That isn't even controversial. It is fact. You say the failures are all due to laziness. I totally reject that! Again read the link on the fat trap.. This is KNOWN SCIENCE now. Bottom line, it makes no difference for RESULTS what percentage of failures are due to fat trap science and what percentage to so called laziness. This basic advice has been around probably for centuries, and for most people, it ends up not working for whatever reasons. It is so easy to demonize fat people and label them fat pigs and lazy. I think a forum about fat is the wrong place for that. Even people boasting about their success here, let's hear back from them in 5 years, OK? I wish everyone good health but the odds are the odds, they are very poor. It is all we've got to offer except bariatric which again if you actually read my posts, you would know I think is a HORRIBLE option. Again, I don't think I am fat enough to be usual candidate for bariatric but I think for some people it might be their ONLY hope for any kind of quality of life. I think pretty much all mainstream doctors with an obesity focus recognize bariatric as a valid option (and the only really EFFECTIVE one) for more extreme cases of obesity.

Again, on the ACV, a reading of my actual posts would tell you that I certainly don't believe that alone is a weight loss program. It MAY possibly be a helper related to blood sugar from starch, but you still have to limit calories and exercise. I have said this multiple times already. I can't help it if people wildly misread my meaning.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

I've been on thyroid hormone for decades. But thanks! I suspect celiac based on symptoms and family history but hard to get a definitive diagnosis. Due to my family history I assume pre-diabetes even though regular fasting diabetes screening is negative. That's another big reason I take care with food choices and do exercise and have done for decades. I think if I haven't done that, I would definitely be full diabetic probably 10 years ago. You are right to focus on blood sugar and pre-diabetes.

What do you suggest more than this?

http://www.livestron...betic-patients/

Going by this (in the article you linked):

Dietary Guidelines

What you eat directly influences blood glucose. The American Diabetes Association recommends a diet in which 50 percent of calories come from complex carbohydrates, less than 35 percent come from fats and 15 percent come from proteins. Because of the increased risk of heart disease, it's smart to strictly limit the amount of cholesterol and fats consumed.

....I'd skip the whole article and all advice given. Suggesting that pre-diabetics should get 50% of their daily calories from carbohydrates is ridiculous. Of course doctors don't really address the problem of pre-diabetes. You merely keep going back for tests over the years, and when you've finally hit the diabetic numbers they'll suggest you start on drugs - yet keep eating the carbs.

I'd suggest you start reading here:

http://chriskresser....t-normal-part-1

He's a lot smarter than I am and I believe he has it nailed in terms of what's what in the diabetic world from all the most recent research available.

FBS tests are not enough. A friend of mine had a FBS done recently which came back at 98 mg/dl. I suggested he get a glucometer to monitor his blood sugar after meals. It turned out that most of his FBS readings are in the 120 - 130 mg/dl region. That's pre-diabetic to diabetic going by FBS numbers. He's also very high after carbohydrates. He's showing pre-diabetic to diabetic readings after all carbohydrate meals, even small ones.

If you want to know where you are, you need HbA1c and OGTT tests. Surprisingly even an HbA1c test can be misleading because my friend above tests "normal" for that. I use inverted commas because what doctors (lab test results) call normal and optimal are very different. My HbA1c appears quite normal too, but I know I'm not.

Some people can have normal FBS and be highly elevated after carbohydrate meals.

Regarding diagnosis for Celiac Disease, I believe you need a tissue biopsy AND blood tests to be sure. I'm not sure if my lab does them, but he can send away the samples to Bangkok for special tests. If you really want to know, I'll email him or you can do it yourself.....

http://www.pattaya-lab.com/

Edited January 11, 2013 by tropo

[Jingthing]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

It is complex and not as cut and dry as people think. For example, based on my blood tests right now I appear perfectly normal for FBS, postprandial and HbA1c. Does this mean I'm normal? As far as a doctor would be concerned, if he tested me he'd say I'm normal.

... however, when I got my first FBS in 2005 it was 255 mg/dl. I kid you not. I still have the results sheet. That's right up there in the clouds. I started taking 2 types of diabetic medication (gliclazide and metforim) and it slowly dropped. After awhile I stopped taking medication and relied only on dietary changes and lots of exercise. I can push the numbers right down to normal.

Looking at my current numbers you would think I've cured myself. My last lab FBS was 84 mg/dl. In actual fact I just have it under control and the numbers can head south if I don't watch what I eat.

When I'm not keeping a close eye on blood sugar I slowly start packing on visceral fat. I doesn't happen overnight, but one day I'll look in the mirror and wonder where that gut came from. I can be 25% fat in the abdominal region while I'm only packing about 10% or less on the arms and legs. This was determined by a DEXA scan which shows you were the fat is distributed. A recent Dexa scan indicates that my abdominal region is now under 10%, but the arms and legs are still similar to the earlier result.

Edited January 11, 2013 by tropo

[cobra]

I know the orthodox views that it's only about diet and exercise. I do not believe that and never will, but thanks for sharing.

I agree there is no magic pill and may never be. (Actually I think there will be but certainly not yet.) For the vast majority of people to hope for long term success, they're looking at bariatric surgery, and that's pretty horrible. Doctors who tell their fat patients, just go home and diet and exercise and can offer nothing else, they know full well their advice will fail for the vast majority of their patients, and that's a fact.

So let me get this straight - you don't believe in calorie reduction and exercise, but are willing to place faith in apple cider vinegar? Dang, I always liked reading your posts JT, but this is a bit...errrr....ummm.... disappointing. Why do you think Bariatric surgery works? It's very extreme and leaves the patient no other choice BUT to reduce calories. Eating less, or eating smart does work -- because people are too lazy to implement doesn't render it bullshit.

Now that's a slogan you'll never hear in the diet and quick weight loss industry,

Overweight people lose weight for two reasons, vanity or health.

The former is core to self-esteem, procuring an attractive mate or other.

The latter is for self-preservation,

Both work,

On the health side if you enjoy living and wish to stay in that state, research has shown restricting calories adds to longevity, numerous animal studies has shown this.

Whether living within an sub-Saharan diet on a starvation level negates quality of life, well that's another subject.

Edited January 11, 2013 by cobra

[robblok]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

JT,

I only say in the end its calories in vs calories out BUT there are other factors like insulin resistance that you point out. Testostorone levels also play a part, all these things do influence the outcome in some way. Your thyroid problem will make your MBR slower as others. It sucks, i know mine isnt working as good either (did the test and such). Anyway Tropo was surprised at what i was eating compared to him. But he was bigger and leaner.

I like him and you make sacrifices too, but also i let go once in a while Tropo does too. I only make sure that once in a while does not screw up the rest. I have gone to that lab and done the test and saw my HbA1c high.. and then drop because i changed my diet. I thought my 100gram oats in the morning (complex carbs) was good. But i reacted wrong on it. Bought a gluco meter and tested myself after meals to see what they did to me. (yes real extreme to do that but it showed me what i could and could not do)

Now i am leaner as i have ever been even in my youth, been always big / muscular but never lean. So i must be doing something good, and i think its mainly my diet as i always was crazy about training (with big lapses unfortunately). But the rowing trainer that i bought last year june did help a lot. But just working out and seeing progress helps to stay with it and make the right choices.

You are obviously making the best choices too, i was mistaken in how i saw you because of your restaurant threads and you never mentioned thyroid problems. They do make it a lot harder as i know. Tropo is harsh at his posts but he does know his facts about diet and food. You could check yourself with a gluco meter to see how you respond to your home cooked and regular meals. Maybe there is something to win there. You prepare those yourself and have full control I am not telling you to give up your food as you obviously enjoy that and it would make you miserable But if you test how you respond to your own foods and see if you can (or even have too) change something there you might win. Its not about perfection in diet but doing most things right.

The fact that your apple cider vinnegar is helping you make the right choices and you already were doing this but now even more might help too. But because your problems plus that you don't take full control (no problem) you will have to be patient and please don't give up. It will come slower but it will come.

[Tolley]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

I think the mix of your diet is definitely wrong. You need to up the proteiin percentage and reduce the complex carbs. For complex carbs in your case I would probably eliminate bread and just stick to organic brown rice and oats.

You should also consider doing some resistance training to change your body shape and build more muscle. I know you probably have an aversion to doing this but believe me the benefits from doing only three 45 mins sessions a week are remarkable. That is really all you need to change your body shape. You wont become the hulk but you will feel better than you have ever felt and for only really a small amount of time.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Tolley

[robblok]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

I think the mix of your diet is definitely wrong. You need to up the proteiin percentage and reduce the complex carbs. For complex carbs in your case I would probably eliminate bread and just stick to organic brown rice and oats.

Tropo, i think he needs to test.. i thought i was doing so good with my 100grams of oats.. but in reality i was not (insulin spikes only found that when i tested it) .. bringing it back to 60 grams did help. Not only is the kind of carb you choose important, portion size has big influence too.

[Tolley]

Thanks. Interesting.

Supports what I have been saying here. Obesity is very complex. Not a matter of simple math.

This item is mind boggling:

Evidence is now clear that not all obese people have metabolic dysfunction, and that in some cases, obesity may even protect against metabolic and cardiovascular disease. In this sense obesity may be the body’s attempt to protect against the damage done by a modern lifestyle. (If you’re confused by this, don’t worry – we’ll cover it in more detail later.

http://chriskresser....el-of-diabesity

I must say I am confused about your diet advice. I really was on schedule to already be diabetic over 10 years ago or more based on my family history and I think I my diet for decades now has been heavy on the complex carbs. In my view, though I am still fat, I must have been doing something right not to be diabetic by now.

I think the mix of your diet is definitely wrong. You need to up the proteiin percentage and reduce the complex carbs. For complex carbs in your case I would probably eliminate bread and just stick to organic brown rice and oats.

Tropo, i think he needs to test.. i thought i was doing so good with my 100grams of oats.. but in reality i was not (insulin spikes only found that when i tested it) .. bringing it back to 60 grams did help. Not only is the kind of carb you choose important, portion size has big influence too.

Well he defintely needs to eliminate bread as he thinks he might have celiac disease. Oats may also be problematic and maybe better avoided. I still recommend brown rice. It is a source of good nutrients and fabulous for the bowel and colon. As long as the portion size is small and you are eating with plenty of protein it shouldnt be a problem for blood sugar.

He also needs to take probiotics and I know he has mentioned that in previous posts. The kefir grains might be the way to go there.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Tolley

[robblok]

Sorry Tolley, for confusing you with Tropo.. i was addressing you.

Yes taking carbs and proteins together does help keep the spike down, my point is just that without a test you never know what is going on. We also don't know how much bread he is taking.. one slice... if so it might not impact at all.. or a lot..

[billd766]

OK, still sipping the acid, and liking it.

Some more thoughts: ACV is about MORE than possible minor help with weight loss. There are a number of other potential health benefits and some pitfalls as well. Apparently the people that do see weight loss they link to ACV, the typical level is one pound per month, but with some luckier people, two pounds per month.

Doing it gives no liberty to pig out on unhealthy food or to neglect exercise either. If it works for some people, it is merely a BOOST.

I'm feeling there is something to the digestive aid claims and am also feeling somewhat more energetic. Overall, I am motivated to keep with it.

Given that, as long as I'm going through the ritual, I decided to spring for the unfiltered product.

In Pattaya, I found Healthy Mate (made in Thailand) organic unfiltered ACV, 32 ounce, 370 baht at Central Food Hall and Foodland. Over double the cost of the S&W. Oh well.

Healthy Mate was the only brand I saw. I did not see the American brand Braggs. The Thai product appears quite good with the same specs as Braggs.

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

I take 1/2 tbs ACV plus 1/2 tbs honey in a glass of water twice a day and I can know close my hands as normal and the pain in my left knee where I had an arthroscopy 15 years ago is much less too.

I have attached several pages from a book that you may find interesting and useful about Vinegar, honey and garlic.

There is much more in the book than this.

Yes it is a well known cure for gout so it should also be good for arthritis. You should add fish oil and/or krill oil as that also helps arthritis.

Thank you for that tip.

The only fish oil I can remember is cod liver oil when I was young and I HATED it.

[Tolley]

OK, still sipping the acid, and liking it.

Some more thoughts: ACV is about MORE than possible minor help with weight loss. There are a number of other potential health benefits and some pitfalls as well. Apparently the people that do see weight loss they link to ACV, the typical level is one pound per month, but with some luckier people, two pounds per month.

Doing it gives no liberty to pig out on unhealthy food or to neglect exercise either. If it works for some people, it is merely a BOOST.

I'm feeling there is something to the digestive aid claims and am also feeling somewhat more energetic. Overall, I am motivated to keep with it.

Given that, as long as I'm going through the ritual, I decided to spring for the unfiltered product.

In Pattaya, I found Healthy Mate (made in Thailand) organic unfiltered ACV, 32 ounce, 370 baht at Central Food Hall and Foodland. Over double the cost of the S&W. Oh well.

Healthy Mate was the only brand I saw. I did not see the American brand Braggs. The Thai product appears quite good with the same specs as Braggs.

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

I take 1/2 tbs ACV plus 1/2 tbs honey in a glass of water twice a day and I can know close my hands as normal and the pain in my left knee where I had an arthroscopy 15 years ago is much less too.

I have attached several pages from a book that you may find interesting and useful about Vinegar, honey and garlic.

There is much more in the book than this.

Yes it is a well known cure for gout so it should also be good for arthritis. You should add fish oil and/or krill oil as that also helps arthritis.

Thank you for that tip.

The only fish oil I can remember is cod liver oil when I was young and I HATED it.

Get the capsules of fish oil. You wont taste anything. Take at least three a day or up to nine a day if your symptoms are really bad.

[robblok]

OK, still sipping the acid, and liking it.

Some more thoughts: ACV is about MORE than possible minor help with weight loss. There are a number of other potential health benefits and some pitfalls as well. Apparently the people that do see weight loss they link to ACV, the typical level is one pound per month, but with some luckier people, two pounds per month.

Doing it gives no liberty to pig out on unhealthy food or to neglect exercise either. If it works for some people, it is merely a BOOST.

I'm feeling there is something to the digestive aid claims and am also feeling somewhat more energetic. Overall, I am motivated to keep with it.

Given that, as long as I'm going through the ritual, I decided to spring for the unfiltered product.

In Pattaya, I found Healthy Mate (made in Thailand) organic unfiltered ACV, 32 ounce, 370 baht at Central Food Hall and Foodland. Over double the cost of the S&W. Oh well.

Healthy Mate was the only brand I saw. I did not see the American brand Braggs. The Thai product appears quite good with the same specs as Braggs.

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

I take 1/2 tbs ACV plus 1/2 tbs honey in a glass of water twice a day and I can know close my hands as normal and the pain in my left knee where I had an arthroscopy 15 years ago is much less too.

I have attached several pages from a book that you may find interesting and useful about Vinegar, honey and garlic.

There is much more in the book than this.

Yes it is a well known cure for gout so it should also be good for arthritis. You should add fish oil and/or krill oil as that also helps arthritis.

Thank you for that tip.

The only fish oil I can remember is cod liver oil when I was young and I HATED it.

The cod oil in those capsules is tasteless as its dissolves in your stomach and releases the oil.

[tropo]

Well he defintely needs to eliminate bread as he thinks he might have celiac disease. Oats may also be problematic and maybe better avoided. I still recommend brown rice. It is a source of good nutrients and fabulous for the bowel and colon. As long as the portion size is small and you are eating with plenty of protein it shouldnt be a problem for blood sugar.

He also needs to take probiotics and I know he has mentioned that in previous posts. The kefir grains might be the way to go there.

Portion size is definitely important and makes a big difference, but brown rice will raise blood sugar very quickly in most people with insulin resistance. Brown or white makes no difference.

This seems to be a common mantra on health forums - that brown rice is good. I'll bet none of the people advocating brown rice own a glucometer. If you join a diabetic forum and converse with real people who have prediabetes and diabetes you'll hear a different story entirely. Some of these people eat extremely low quantities of carbs (20g per day or lower) to avoid using medication. In the advanced stages even carb restriction is not enough - they'll need extreme carb restriction combined with medication (metformin)...and hope they can avoid the need for insulin injections if the pancreas stops producing insulin,.

Having tested brown and white rice on many occasions I know there is no difference with regard to a 1 or 2 hour blood sugar spikes with either. Perhaps brown rice will digest a little slower, but at 1 hour it makes no difference.

Going back to the story of my friend a few posts back. He found a little bowl of muesli shoots his blood sugar up to nearly 200mg/dl. A small slice of pumpernickel bread did the same.

I think it could be worth following Dr Mercola's advice and avoid grains altogether....or just get a glucometer and make an educated decision,

Edited January 12, 2013 by tropo