Finding Reliable Domestic Staff...that Stay.

[DLock]

I seem to have problems with Domestic staff every 2 years or so. I don't know why and I am seeking advice.

My staff (husband and Wife team) receive 300 baht per day each (9am - 5pm), 6 days a week, get a small private house to live in on the property, all utilities, most holidays, 13 month bonus and a week off at Xmas and Songkran...and a motorbike and phone.

We travel quite a bit and need very reliable and trustworthy staff.

The Man is gardener, hand man and security. The Woman is housekeeper - no cooking required. The job is really not that difficult or stressful.

Usually, they start off great and once trained do a good job and seem motivated for a year or 2. Then they start coming late, requesting more days off, performance starts slacking, get lazy...and then eventually, they just leave for no reason given. This has happened 3 times...although one staff was stealing my stuff, so I fired them.

I am looking for input into people that have had staff for 5 years or more and tips on why you think your staff stay. Do you treat them as family or are you quite firm?

I would pay more if I thought I would get better staff, loyalty or stay longer.

Next question is where to find new staff....and why isn't there an agency to connect Thai staff with foreign employers. I'm tired of putting up signs and doing interviews of people with zero experience.

Advice appreciated.

[Rancid]

From what I've seen on Thai Soaps beating the staff seems to be a great attraction for their devoted attention. Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen and having them grovel on the floor between beatings also seems to be a wnner. Perhaps it is like a dog herd mentality thing...

[CMHomeboy78]

What a dreadful experience!

Call it quits and go home.

[onthedarkside]

I feel the pain of the OP. We (my Thai wife & myself) have employed many Thai workers over the past 15 years or so. Some good, many bad. I have no idea what is the solution to hiring good solid workers.

[BuddhaMind]

What a dreadful experience!

Call it quits and go home.

Hmm, this seems to be your standard reply. What's it feel like to be a cliche?

[gamini]

Everyone has this problem now days. Thais prefer to work in factories or construction sites. Some of our friends have Burmese servants who tend to be more loyal. I certainly miss the good old days when we had lots of loyal servants.

[gamini]

What a dreadful experience!

Call it quits and go home.

Hmm, this seems to be your standard reply. What's it feel like to be a cliche?

we are not all working class like you probably are. We had good servants in the UK and would like to have had the same here

[hellodolly]

From what I've seen on Thai Soaps beating the staff seems to be a great attraction for their devoted attention. Treat 'em mean keep 'em keen and having them grovel on the floor between beatings also seems to be a wnner. Perhaps it is like a dog herd mentality thing...

I will take your word for it. Don't watch them myself. Perhaps if the OP made it easier for the maid to watch more soaps perhaps a big screen TV in there residence. The Thai women just love soaps.

[theDukes]

I've been around for a long time, 26 years. In and out, stealing, there is a lot of crap going on, when you find a good house person or two make sure you keep them around.

Dave

[rideswings]

Its getting harder to find Thais that will work as a live-in housekeeper for 300 baht per day on a long term basis.

I agree that the Burmese are a hard working, loyal, non-stealing type in general but it also depends on the person.

My GF is Burmese and has a small cleaning business in CM and has never stolen anything in her life, and she is as reliable as the day is long. She charges 100 baht per hour for cleaning and works very hard for that time. People have tried to hire her full time but they only offer her 8,000 or 9,000 per month for a 6 day a week job but she says its not worth it. She does more cleaning in 3 hours than most housekeepers do in a week.

Edited January 12, 2013 by rideswings

[elektrified]

Its getting harder to find Thais that will work as a live-in housekeeper for 300 baht per day on a long term basis.

I agree that the Burmese are a hard working, loyal, non-stealing type in general but it also depends on the person.

My GF is Burmese and has a small cleaning business in CM and has never stolen anything in her life, and she is as reliable as the day is long. She charges 100 baht per hour for cleaning and works very hard for that time. People have tried to hire her full time but they only offer her 8,000 or 9,000 per month for a 6 day a week job but she says its not worth it. She does more cleaning in 3 hours than most housekeepers do in a week.

Indeed. I doubt if the OP could live on 9,000 per month. There is just no motivation for anyone that is good at those wages. Our lady is Thai from the Karen tribe and she works her ass off starting at like 5:30 A.M.and is still working at night, not only for us but she has a number of clients she works for each month. She makes more than double the minimum 9K THB but is barely getting by. She is always broke.

[jackr]

What a dreadful experience!

Call it quits and go home.

Hmm, this seems to be your standard reply. What's it feel like to be a cliche?

we are not all working class like you probably are. We had good servants in the UK and would like to have had the same here

My, we are a hoity-toity one, aren't we. 'Servants' indeed... enough to make the hairs curl up on the back of one's neck. However, I didn't think the nobs would stoop so low as to hang in Muang Thai... you must be a wannabee.

[jackr]

Sign of the times I'm afraid, op. There is the possibility they had it too good and wound up seeing themselves above their station, but more likely got bored and didn't want to live there anymore... don't forget, you're dealing with a kiddie mentality for the most part.

The Burmese seem to be a bit hardier and loyal.

[maturebrit]

i would have brought in My own staff from outside Thailand but thats never going to happen now.... reliability is something you rarely get in Thailand....IF you offered them double it would not be enough....greed is so prevailent. ..I have spent more than 30 yrs in Asean countries working and many of them in Thailand but we..the family will leave

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thailand]

we are not all working class like you probably are. We had good servants in the UK and would like to have had the same here

[Ulysses G.]

we are not all working class like you probably are. We had good servants in the UK and would like to have had the same here

Hi ho old chap. Burden of the white man and all that rot.

[DLock]

Some valid thinking...and the usual idiots.

If I thought paying 20,000 baht per month would make them work any better and stay longer, I would have no hesitation paying it, but I'm not convinced. Most of the staff we have hired had minimal experience - from construction crews or farming, so were earning half what I paid. So, I'm not sure money is the solution. If I could find experienced staff I would also pay that amount, but there are no experienced domestic staff around.

Boredom? Could be part of it.

I tend to think it's being away from family and friends so much and missing the Lao Kao, gambling and Thai stuff. I give them as many of the Thai days off when we are not traveling, but I get the feeling they feel isolated and miss this.

On one hand I'm glad it's not unique to me.

I may try finding a good Thai Gardener/Handyman/security to live on site and bring in an experienced maid every day. Finding a couple that has experience is difficult.

Appreciate the input.

[noise]

Interesting that no one showed any interest in poking at JOB SATISFACTION.

I will say couples take a job for one of two basic reasons (or both).

1. Desperate for income, cant' find anything paying more (survival)
   
2. Conditions sound the best; good perks, extras (e.g., free room and board, telephone, use of motorcycle)
   

But then they will only stay on the job if they like it and there are multiple factors involved here). For example:

1. They love the job; they enjoy it doing it, it is challenging
   
2. It is what they will have to do anywhere and this employer treats them better than any other they have had. They enjoy the treatment by their employer while accepting they have to work.
   

The OP said money, room & board, days off, etc., do not seem to be sufficient to keep them for more than about 2 years.

So what are the other factors? Even though the soap opera comments were sarcastic, how are the staff treated?

Is there a common language? Can the OP talk to them as people, not just employees, ask them about their kids, their parents' health, etc.? Do they feel free to come and talk about a family problem? Or is it a limited Thai/English language employee/boss arrangement where the only exchanges are basically job directions?

Where do the couples actually end up when they leave? That could be a very important "tell". Making less money, working harder, no free room and board, etc. would indicate they were not happy with the working conditions.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHT: Where is the OP's house? Living and working on the property may limit their social life with the rest of the world. They may, after a couple of years, just feel too isolated. They can not wander over to their cousin's house for dinner one day, walk to the wat where all their family goes on a holiday. Maybe too many times they just want to have a good bowl of noodle soup or kao mun kai for lunch and couldn't get there from "here". Live-ins are isolated; not many people want to be isolated from the world like that.

Maybe he would have better luck with commuters?

P.S. Just saw OP's last post. Sound like he has figured it out, but I will post this anyway.

[rideswings]

Just out of curiosity, can I ask what duties you expect from a maid? Is it important that she live on the grounds or can she just work days? I might be able to find someone if you give me more information.

[DLock]

Interesting that no one showed any interest in poking at JOB SATISFACTION.

I will say couples take a job for one of two basic reasons (or both).

1. Desperate for income, cant' find anything paying more (survival)
   
2. Conditions sound the best; good perks, extras (e.g., free room and board, telephone, use of motorcycle)
   

But then they will only stay on the job if they like it and there are multiple factors involved here). For example:

1. They love the job; they enjoy it doing it, it is challenging
   
2. It is what they will have to do anywhere and this employer treats them better than any other they have had. They enjoy the treatment by their employer while accepting they have to work.
   

The OP said money, room & board, days off, etc., do not seem to be sufficient to keep them for more than about 2 years.

So what are the other factors? Even though the soap opera comments were sarcastic, how are the staff treated?

Is there a common language? Can the OP talk to them as people, not just employees, ask them about their kids, their parents' health, etc.? Do they feel free to come and talk about a family problem? Or is it a limited Thai/English language employee/boss arrangement where the only exchanges are basically job directions?

Where do the couples actually end up when they leave? That could be a very important "tell". Making less money, working harder, no free room and board, etc. would indicate they were not happy with the working conditions.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHT: Where is the OP's house? Living and working on the property may limit their social life with the rest of the world. They may, after a couple of years, just feel too isolated. They can not wander over to their cousin's house for dinner one day, walk to the wat where all their family goes on a holiday. Maybe too many times they just want to have a good bowl of noodle soup or kao mun kai for lunch and couldn't get there from "here". Live-ins are isolated; not many people want to be isolated from the world like that.

Maybe he would have better luck with commuters?

P.S. Just saw OP's last post. Sound like he has figured it out, but I will post this anyway.

Noise, I think you are on to something.

Regardless of higher salary, house, bike, bonus month salary, I think isolation is one of the key factors.

When they leave, they tend to go back to farming or construction earning maybe 6,000baht per month. Work is harder, but they have that social aspect after work and Sunday's. There is no bad feelings when they leave.

[DLock]

Just out of curiosity, can I ask what duties you expect from a maid? Is it important that she live on the grounds or can she just work days? I might be able to find someone if you give me more information.

Ridewings, my place is moderate sized house and only me and my wife living here, sometimes friends or family, but no kids.

Basic duties would be floors, laundry, bedroom and bathrooms, basic tidying up. No cooking required. Very basic.

I am leaning towards Maid staff coming in every day (6 days week).

Location is Samoeng Rd. Property is quite large and isolated.

Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

[junglechef]

I do it if I may say Thai style, not sure if I have a choice, with my full time man who commutes from home around the corner, he comes and goes as he pleases incl. taking days off as he feels fit etc. but gets everything done nicely. Then I bring in Burmese guys to do bigger projects as we do some farming etc. when needed. Actually it's a win-win situation which I don't think is the norm here. I treat him as much like family as I feel he feels comfortable with and always with respect, appreciation and friendliness.

[CMHomeboy78]

What a dreadful experience!

Call it quits and go home.

Hmm, this seems to be your standard reply. What's it feel like to be a cliche?

The standard reply, or cliche if that's what you want to call it, is the short answer to all their problems.

Simply go home.

The servant-master relationship became anachronistic long ago in their own countries.

What makes them think they can come here and play the Sahib? Those days are over.

Arrogant farangs have become like a plague in Chiang Mai.

The sooner they leave the better.

[neilrob]

Now if only CMhomeboy would go back to wherever he came from it would be possible to have a meaningful exchange.

[rideswings]

My answer to your problem might be what many companies are doing these days; outsourcing. You wont have to pay holidays, and no bonuses and theres very little emotion involved, I think its not unreasonable after a year or two for employees to feel comfortable and secure in their jobs, having gained some clout by not getting fired up to then. Its normal for them to stretch out the day, come in late from time to time, doing pretty much anything they want just short of getting fired. Some of my employees did exactly that, show up late for work, take one hour coffee breaks and one hour lunch breaks, leave early, and in general I was grateful if I get 3 solid hours (out of 7) of work from them in any given day. Seemed like Youtube and Facebook were more important to them than their jobs.

They changed their tune a little bit when I started outsourcing their jobs overseas, reality kicked in and now they are more productive then ever. Sometimes all it takes is a little kick in the pants to get them to appreciate their jobs more, such as the very threat of them losing their jobs to someone hungrier for work.

If you still have your housekeeper and groundsman, bring in a highly motivated part time maid to show them how quickly their job can be done, you might not need someone 6 days a week. Maybe 3 or 4 days of hard work will get it done. Maybe then they will snap to attention for fear of losing their jobs and start to work harder. If not, they are a lost cause anyway.

My outsourced overseas employees are the hardest working people I have ever known. because they are so appreciate of the work and they fear that if they goof off, they will be replaced by someone right behind them. It sounds like Im a slave driver, but in this economy, only the fit will survive and I intend to survive.

For some reason, I envision the TV series Magnum PI, where you are Robin Masters, and you have a Magnum PI and a Jonathan Higgins to deal with. Magnum was always goofing off, getting drunk, providing poor security to the estate, and wrecking the Ferrari. Higgins was too busy bird watching and attending social events to do any kind of hard work. Im not sure how The Robins Nest stayed so well kept. You need to fire your Magnum and Higgins and get some real help! haha

Edited January 13, 2013 by rideswings

[2020]

I start the day by lining up my staff in the front garden and selecting one of them for a sound thrashing with my whip, not only to maintain discipline but also for my own enjoyment. - Legendary Victorian soldier and traveller, Sir Harry Flashman.

Hope this helps.

2020

[SLESQ]

From my 20 years’ experience in Southeast Asia, the most important matter in every relationship is THE relationship. My housekeeper of 12 years just retired. I am still friends with her, in fact, she is like my younger sister and I dealt with her as such: friendship, respect, inclusion in family outings, and a whole lot more than just "atta-girls and money. I hired her in Bangkok in 2001 from an agent, and I refused to pay the agent the housekeeper's monthly wage knowing that the agent would skim sums each month for herself! And I let the housekeeper know this at the time of hiring. To avoid strife, I paid the agent 2 month's salary and not one as was her posted fee.

T (as will here call her) started at 6,000 THB a month, room, board, full medical coverage, no lost days for medical needs, 6 days’ work a week, hours 6 AM to 6 AM, and two weeks paid holiday every year, plus all Thai bank holidays off. T had previously worked for a Chinese family and left when they started to beat her! My next promise was to not ever yell and certainly never hit her!! Amazing. I forbade her from kneeling in my presence, and invited her to join us for meals (she refused for 12 years but for special holidays and her own birthday celebration).

We spoke as friends, I inquired about and got to know her family situation, and as a single father of boys, some Asian by adoption, asked her opinion on matters of importance to raising four healthy and successful lads.

When we moved to Chiang Mai 3 years later, T came with us. I hired two additional staff for her to supervise (assistant housekeeper and grounds keeper). She hated that but soon got the hang of it. And loved the added responsibility and respect.

Every Monday morning we met, all four of us seated at the same level, where I opened the meeting with the same question: how is it that I can help you to do your job better? At first the new hires were reluctant to respond but T by then knew I was sincere in the request. A few weeks later each of the 3 domestic and one office worker were offering me great insights on how we could all make our respective duties easier and better. Only when they finished their talk did I make suggestions for them to do this or that, never demands, and gave suggestions on how they could do their jobs better... I had few suggestions that they had not already mentioned.

T's salary started at 6,000 THB and increased annually or bi-annually until she reached 12,000 THB a month, plus a full months bonus at Christmas; half month's bonus at Songkgran; and 1% of the net profit from each project I landed.

I tried a modified 401K where I'd put in 1,000 THB for every 500 THB the staff contributed from their salary; and opened accounts for each in my name but marked to benefit each staff member. When two junior staff were released for misfeasance, they none the less were paid their savings account, yet T began to question if I would pay hers, no doubt on the wrong advice of others. I paid her 50,000 THB on her demand and ended my 401K plan for all staff.

It took T less than 45 days to blow the entire savings, at which point she knew she had no future security if I should leave Thailand or die. At that time she was earning 10,000 THB a month. I told her that when she retired, or I died, whichever came first, I would insure she was paid 10,000 THB a month for each full year she was in my employ. NOTE: I am advised by my legal counsel there is no labor law protection for housekeepers but this is a standard provision for all office and factory workers.

When T did retired at the end of 2012, she received: her December salary, her Christmas bonus, and an additional 120,000 THB for 12 years honest service, along with my strong admonition to NOT give a baht to her new Dutch man-friend, or any pleading relative. I stressed that this is her retirement money for when she is truly old and can't work any longer. Her embarrassing to me thanks: she knelt, kow-towed in a Wei with her head to the floor, and tears in her eyes.

Before T left my employ and home, she found G, a younger (at 42) and very much in-need worker (also Thai) whom she had befriended years before from meetings in local markets. G is now starting her 3^rd full week as a day worker, hours 8 AM to 3 PM where her duties are only cleaning and laundry at a salary of 6,000 THB per month. G has already run rings around T in housecleaning skills, and has the good humor and great attitude that T had sadly lost as she just grew out of this job. G does Not just perform simple dusting, but today G on her own tore apart our Thai kitchen, water-jet blasted the grimy, black floor back to its red-orange original state, and is making the entire house shin where T had (sadly) lost interest for the past year or more.

Things happen and G may not last the month, or she may too stay for 12 years or more. But...

The moral to this tale of … life in Asia… is the most important part of living and working here is to build and maintain your relationships. If you have not been so far-sighted and still need a good housekeeper, keep asking your neighbors and friends and associates and shop keepers and every one you encounter. Remember looking for your first job yourself? This is NOT a time to be shy. No one is accountable for how your staff react to you more so than yourself.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Nice!

Not something that's feasible for my situation, but nice.

BTW 2 years is long enough to not worry about doing something wrong. If they keep leaving after days or weeks then that may mean rethinking the setup, but I wouldn't worry too much at 2 years; quite often it's also their personal situation that is the trigger, specifically getting a boyfriend, having kids, needing to move to take care of family, husband having to move, etc. etc.

[CMHomeboy78]

Now if only CMhomeboy would go back to wherever he came from it would be possible to have a meaningful exchange.

What is at issue here isn't just some toff's servant problems; more important is the unwanted presence in Chiang Mai of a large and growing number of farang who - to put it bluntly - don't belong.

Don't belong because they haven't integrated into the local culture to the least degree.

They don't really have to anymore.

Chiang Mai now offers a cornucopia of comfort food. Gone are the days when the Kasem Store and the "supermarket" in the basement of Tantraphan were the only sources for a few familiar goodies.

Everything is laid out at your feet now, at a price of course, but it's all there. Food, housing, recreation. It's all tailored just for you.

You live here like latter-day colonists. You have your own social circles. The natives are only there to serve your wants and needs.

But like your colonial predecessors you are ignorant of some basic home-truths about where you are and about the people you are living among.

Asian cultures had long traditions of refinement and civility at a time when our ancestors were throwing the contents of their chamber pots out the windows and into the street.

Farangs came here first as predators in the 16th Century. Barbarians in conduct, if not in technology, they proceeded to exploit and colonize wherever and whenever they could.

In the 21st Century the tables are turned. Now it's our countries that are weak and in decline. East Asia is rising. Times are changing.

Chiang Mai farangs are learning to kow-tow, wheedle, lie, and perform long demeaning rituals to obtain temporary permission to stay here.

The party's over, Adios.

[2020]

Now if only CMhomeboy would go back to wherever he came from it would be possible to have a meaningful exchange.

What is at issue here isn't just some toff's servant problems; more important is the unwanted presence in Chiang Mai of a large and growing number of farang who - to put it bluntly - don't belong.

Don't belong because they haven't integrated into the local culture to the least degree.

They don't really have to anymore.

Chiang Mai now offers a cornucopia of comfort food. Gone are the days when the Kasem Store and the "supermarket" in the basement of Tantraphan were the only sources for a few familiar goodies.

Everything is laid out at your feet now, at a price of course, but it's all there. Food, housing, recreation. It's all tailored just for you.

You live here like latter-day colonists. You have your own social circles. The natives are only there to serve your wants and needs.

But like your colonial predecessors you are ignorant of some basic home-truths about where you are and about the people you are living among.

Asian cultures had long traditions of refinement and civility at a time when our ancestors were throwing the contents of their chamber pots out the windows and into the street.

Farangs came here first as predators in the 16th Century. Barbarians in conduct, if not in technology, they proceeded to exploit and colonize wherever and whenever they could.

In the 21st Century the tables are turned. Now it's our countries that are weak and in decline. East Asia is rising. Times are changing.

Chiang Mai farangs are learning to kow-tow, wheedle, lie, and perform long demeaning rituals to obtain temporary permission to stay here.

The party's over, Adios.

Maybe true or not but nothing to do with the OP and not helping, just venting....

In the meantime, check out China Town in a large western city and tell me how well they integrate.

Same same but different me thinks.

Edited January 13, 2013 by 2020