Many Poor Will Stay Poor No Matter What Government Does

[TommoPhysicist]

In the west all that matters is making money.

In Thailand all that matters is having a pleasant life.

And you all want to tell the Thais they have it wrong ............

[jamescollister]

In the west all that matters is making money.

In Thailand all that matters is having a pleasant life.

And you all want to tell the Thais they have it wrong ............

True

Why do people in the west put in the long hours, days, weeks , months and years. Usually to buy a house or pay big rents to stay out of the elements, keep food on the table and buy a big car so they can get to work.

If you removed those 3 things from a westerners needs, willing to bet things would slow down.

We have all been coned from birth to believe that what you do and where you live is the road to happiness. Jim

[aTomsLife]

This thread has been a great read. The first thing that comes to mind is the difference in dynamic between typical Thai and western families.

In the west we're mostly raised to be fiercely independent, and for the average person there is no surer path to this liberty than through earning ones own way. On the other hand, a 30 year old unmarried Thai, and perhaps a married one too, wouldn't feel much if any shame still living under his or her parents' roof. So while here young people are expected to care for their older relatives, they simultaneously benefit from the security provided in the form of a mortgage-free residences, and in many instances the land where food can be grown.

This is likely to change, however, as the culture of consumerism colonizes yet another traditional way of life.

Many westerners, including myself, have come to Thailand to live a simpler more relaxed lifestyle. Ironically, rather than be understood by Thais, I am often asked why I gave up a western salary to come teach English. Many westerners wonder the same -- why a 30-something would choose to spend his peak earning years in a developing country....

My father died a month before his 65th birthday, after working hard to provide a middle-class lifestyle for his family and saving for retirement. I left for Thailand 6 months after laying him to rest. Though sometimes I worry a bit about the future, so far I have no regrets about having come here.

Edited January 22, 2013 by aTomsLife

[rene123]

If a someone sets their own personal horizon at the next bowl of rice (and if they happen to be eating rice at the time then they set their horizon at that particular bowl of rice) happy in the knowledge that there will be rice tomorrow - who's to say they are not right, not happy, or lazy?

There are however two problems that deserve comment.

The first is a habit of securing that next bowl of rice on the labour of others, often that of their children and too often that of their daughters.

The second relates to the OP's question and the Government's role in all this.

This government has toted popularist policies of free and easy money (see living off the labours of others above). But more than that, this government have reasserted the idea that the poor must wait for the largesse of the government, of the big name, the powerful person who will look after them - they need do nothing for themselves it is their place to be looked after when needs become desperate. A personal choice to have one's horizon set on your next bowl of rice is perhaps actually a long schooling of understanding where individual horizons should be set.

It's easy to blame the government for this, the rewards they themselves reap are secure power and the adulation of the poor.

But the government did not invent the dance, the music was already playing, they simply performed a very slick 'gentlemen's excuse me'.

Good post, Guesthouse, and very cleverly "worded" to skirt around certain issues that could land you in trouble. If you want to keep people under your power then it's wise to keep them dumb and uneducated.

[krisb]

In the west all that matters is making money.

In Thailand all that matters is having a pleasant life.

And you all want to tell the Thais they have it wrong ............

aka, work to live or live to work. Edited January 22, 2013 by krisb

[lemoncake]

Lemoncake,

From what you say, there were 5 people working there when the business started and that was before the customer base grew.

I imagine that in the early days there was simply not enough income to pay 5 people's wages, so possibly the first 2 left because of this.

To handle the recent high volume of work, I would think that they have had to buy big expensive washing machines and electric driers, probably on credit or maybe lease.

Often when the landlord sees that his tenants have a thriving business, up goes the rent.

Many people don't understand that business and personal money should be kept separate and they will spend more than they realise. Without proper book-keeping they have no idea how much profit they are making. When the electricity, water, and rent is due, it is always a shock and they have to scrabble around to find the money.

Probably now, with only 2 people working and the high volume of work, they are getting behind and maybe have other hotels threatening to take their business elsewhere.

When people have no idea how to run a business, they mess it up and in the end can't be bothered anymore.

You yourself know how difficult it is to get reliable staff that you can trust to turn up for work everyday and on time.

Selling a business is not so easy. Usually plenty of buyers, but with no money.

When i started to deal with them, there were only 2, at no time there were 5 family members, those 5 have taken over and gone back to village.

As i said, from what each one said it was not the lack of money or business knowledge but either tired, bored or want to be with gf

If all 5 were there to work it, i am sure it would have been a winner

[lemoncake]

So revenue is the same as profit in your book?

Their washing machines, detergents, rent , electricity, water, labour, all for free ?

And then we didn't talk yet about possible tea money, taxes ..............

Do you really think that all this people would simply walk away from a hundred thousand a month ?

Hey, there is an opportunity for you, start a laundry asap as there is a market opening for free and earn an extra few hundred thousand a month in a snap.

I often wonder if some posters here ever read or think before posting, you have proven me right. Not only you managed not to read but failed to do simple thinking

1.Where did i say revenue is the same as profit? was it not clear for you when i said bringing in few hundred thousands?

2. Do not need to be a mathematician or business man to do simple maths for their rough costs. example rent of a run down unit in the back of the soi in pattaya is no more than 10-15k, detergent is 300baht for 10kg, wages are none as its family run, electric(well if i pay for hotel around 40k, i doubt they pay much more) so estimated profits would be 100k+ per month

3.What tea money are you talking about? what laundry in this country pays tea money? for what? washing dirty knickers?

4. Yes possibly some taxes if they actually had a registered company or declared all the earnings

And yes it was an opportunity to take it over, but since i have never owned a laundry or worked in one and do not have a thai skirt to do everything for me, it would not have been a wise decision to go ahead with a take over, no matter how attractive it sounded.

Do i think these people just walked away? yes i do, because this is exactly what they did. Now, i do not know if they sold the equipment or what they did with it, but i do know they have shut down the shop.

[lemoncake]

In the west all that matters is making money.

In Thailand all that matters is having a pleasant life.

And you all want to tell the Thais they have it wrong ............

True

Why do people in the west put in the long hours, days, weeks , months and years. Usually to buy a house or pay big rents to stay out of the elements, keep food on the table and buy a big car so they can get to work.

If you removed those 3 things from a westerners needs, willing to bet things would slow down.

We have all been coned from birth to believe that what you do and where you live is the road to happiness. Jim

True, but we all like to have nice things no? and those do not come free.

Want to eat well, want to drink well, want to drive a nice car or a bike etc etc etc, it all cost money.

Also personally i like to help my children to have good education and life ahead of them, instead of expecting them to support me when they grow up.

Moderation is the key, but i do not think working for 1-2 months in a year is a way to improve your life or your kids life, that is not to say that some may well be happy with that, but then there is no need to cry about being poor, as rich did not get rich by working few months in a year.

Just as rich did not stay rich by doing nothing.

[TommoPhysicist]

True, but we all like to have nice things no? and those do not come free.

Life-style and obsession

Diamond rings get you nothing but a life long lesson

And your pocket-book stressin'

You're a slave to the system, working jobs that you hate

For that shit you don't need

It's too bad the world is based on greed

Step back and see, stop thinking about yourself

Start thinking about

There's no money, there's no possession

Only obsession, I don't need that shit

Take my money, take my possessions

Take my obsession, I don't need that shit

Edited January 22, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[lemoncake]

True, but we all like to have nice things no? and those do not come free.

Life-style and obsession

Diamond rings get you nothing but a life long lesson

And your pocket-book stressin'

You're a slave to the system, working jobs that you hate

For that shit you don't need

It's too bad the world is based on greed

Step back and see, stop thinking about yourself

Start thinking about

There's no money, there's no possession

Only obsession, I don't need that shit

Take my money, take my possessions

Take my obsession, I don't need that shit

lovely song, but it is just that a song, while in reality everything cost.

just see the rest of my post which you cut out

[kennedy]

Seems like the OP's main concern was the closing of the laundry, which caused him some grief.

There is an old saying. "Man was not made to work, work was made for man."

[rct99q]

Not trying to take this off topic but if this is the shortened version, how long was your original version of this story going to be. Kind of lost me at "...will try to make this as short as possible", why did you not want them to do your laundry?

[Choonpon]

IMO the thais are just contented as long as they have enough to survive. No ambition, no dreams. Those who are stagnant, will always get stuck in the mud. There's a common saying by the chinese community in Thailand, but it will be considered racist remark so I will just keep mum...

[jamescollister]

We from the west just have a different take on what is important.

BIL is married to a very pretty girl, one 3 year old baby girl. His wife's family are rich, not just rich in Thai standards, but rich in western standards. Her family bought them a Isuzu MUV 7 top of the line when the baby was born.

He came back to our village to live and tap rubber, with wife and kid.

Month or so ago his wife's family, wanting their daughter and only grandchild back in Krabi. Tell them they are going to put the deposit down and will cover the mortgage on a 6 mil house, if they come home and husband works for them.

They all set off to Krabi, BIL caught the bus back, no wife or kid or car,a few days ago.

He speaksvery good English, Uni educated. Asked why, this is my home and I can't live there. He grabs a rifle and heads up into the jungle.

He has 6 rai of good rubber, a big house and car are less important to him than the village and the jungle. Wife and baby will come back in a month or so. jim

[lemoncake]

why did you not want them to do your laundry?

is that a moronic question or did i miss something?

[lemoncake]

We from the west just have a different take on what is important.

BIL is married to a very pretty girl, one 3 year old baby girl. His wife's family are rich, not just rich in Thai standards, but rich in western standards. Her family bought them a Isuzu MUV 7 top of the line when the baby was born.

He came back to our village to live and tap rubber, with wife and kid.

Month or so ago his wife's family, wanting their daughter and only grandchild back in Krabi. Tell them they are going to put the deposit down and will cover the mortgage on a 6 mil house, if they come home and husband works for them.

They all set off to Krabi, BIL caught the bus back, no wife or kid or car,a few days ago.

He speaksvery good English, Uni educated. Asked why, this is my home and I can't live there. He grabs a rifle and heads up into the jungle.

He has 6 rai of good rubber, a big house and car are less important to him than the village and the jungle. Wife and baby will come back in a month or so. jim

Point well taken, which only again means it would not matter if the minimum wage was 200 or 1000, many will still choose to do as little as possible for whatever reasons(love jungle, or village) and complain about being poor.

That is kind of the whole point of my post, with your example, it seems not only financials do not matter to BIL, but also his wife and kid who have an opportunity at much better life, safer for the baby and more prosperous.

[rct99q]

why did you not want them to do your laundry?

is that a moronic question or did i miss something?

Judging from your reply, I can see why they did not want to do your laundry...a bit touchy. If I understand you, you seem to be upset with these people because they did not want to work hard to become rich and in turn have a better life because they could afford nicer things.

Maybe you just don't understand "some" people as well as you think.

[jamescollister]

We from the west just have a different take on what is important.

BIL is married to a very pretty girl, one 3 year old baby girl. His wife's family are rich, not just rich in Thai standards, but rich in western standards. Her family bought them a Isuzu MUV 7 top of the line when the baby was born.

He came back to our village to live and tap rubber, with wife and kid.

Month or so ago his wife's family, wanting their daughter and only grandchild back in Krabi. Tell them they are going to put the deposit down and will cover the mortgage on a 6 mil house, if they come home and husband works for them.

They all set off to Krabi, BIL caught the bus back, no wife or kid or car,a few days ago.

He speaksvery good English, Uni educated. Asked why, this is my home and I can't live there. He grabs a rifle and heads up into the jungle.

He has 6 rai of good rubber, a big house and car are less important to him than the village and the jungle. Wife and baby will come back in a month or so. jim

Point well taken, which only again means it would not matter if the minimum wage was 200 or 1000, many will still choose to do as little as possible for whatever reasons(love jungle, or village) and complain about being poor.

That is kind of the whole point of my post, with your example, it seems not only financials do not matter to BIL, but also his wife and kid who have an opportunity at much better life, safer for the baby and more prosperous.

Don't see where it will be safer for the baby, we live in a village everyone is family. We have no front door, open house. Bedrooms have doors, some off the locks work [maybe ]

More prosperous, not really, his wife's family are loaded and it's their only grandchild.

As to other things, education and opportunities, wife and BIL were born here and attended University near BKK. Wife even attended Uni in OZ.

Just because you live in a rural area doesn't mean you can not go on to bigger things. It just means you have a choice, as to what is important to you.

Had a lad round a few months ago, may be longer. Dirt poor family no future really .Wife new him as a child. Went to BKK at 16 years old. He now owns a limo service, 10 cars and drivers. He started off in the streets, got a job driving and went from there.

His heart is still in his village. Jim

[lemoncake]

We from the west just have a different take on what is important.

BIL is married to a very pretty girl, one 3 year old baby girl. His wife's family are rich, not just rich in Thai standards, but rich in western standards. Her family bought them a Isuzu MUV 7 top of the line when the baby was born.

He came back to our village to live and tap rubber, with wife and kid.

Month or so ago his wife's family, wanting their daughter and only grandchild back in Krabi. Tell them they are going to put the deposit down and will cover the mortgage on a 6 mil house, if they come home and husband works for them.

They all set off to Krabi, BIL caught the bus back, no wife or kid or car,a few days ago.

He speaksvery good English, Uni educated. Asked why, this is my home and I can't live there. He grabs a rifle and heads up into the jungle.

He has 6 rai of good rubber, a big house and car are less important to him than the village and the jungle. Wife and baby will come back in a month or so. jim

Point well taken, which only again means it would not matter if the minimum wage was 200 or 1000, many will still choose to do as little as possible for whatever reasons(love jungle, or village) and complain about being poor.

That is kind of the whole point of my post, with your example, it seems not only financials do not matter to BIL, but also his wife and kid who have an opportunity at much better life, safer for the baby and more prosperous.

Don't see where it will be safer for the baby, we live in a village everyone is family. We have no front door, open house. Bedrooms have doors, some off the locks work [maybe ]

More prosperous, not really, his wife's family are loaded and it's their only grandchild.

As to other things, education and opportunities, wife and BIL were born here and attended University near BKK. Wife even attended Uni in OZ.

Just because you live in a rural area doesn't mean you can not go on to bigger things. It just means you have a choice, as to what is important to you.

Had a lad round a few months ago, may be longer. Dirt poor family no future really .Wife new him as a child. Went to BKK at 16 years old. He now owns a limo service, 10 cars and drivers. He started off in the streets, got a job driving and went from there.

His heart is still in his village. Jim

Safer in terms of medical, surely better medical facilities in a town instead of a village, better schooling.

The guy you mention, may have his heart in the village and nothing wrong with that, but he has made the money as you said so he can afford to to be in the village.

I do not think too many people on this planet like to work all their life and many would retire if they could at a very young age, but unless one is content with what he has or does not have, we have to work to accumulate for the future when older, or sick or for the kids.

The one who is content with what he has not can not start pointing fingers at those who have because they worked their butts off sacrificing everything to have it.

[lemoncake]

The OP equates working hard, making lots of money, as being the path to happiness.

Perhaps many Thais (and others) would disagree with this thinking.

Actually i equate working hard and making lots of money as a path to being financially secure when i am older and ability to provide choices for the kids.

Of course many Thais and (others) would disagree with my thinking and prefer to place the burden on the kids, so they can support me and put their kids through same thing once their kids(my grandkids) become of working age.

Edited January 22, 2013 by lemoncake

[jamescollister]

We from the west just have a different take on what is important.

BIL is married to a very pretty girl, one 3 year old baby girl. His wife's family are rich, not just rich in Thai standards, but rich in western standards. Her family bought them a Isuzu MUV 7 top of the line when the baby was born.

He came back to our village to live and tap rubber, with wife and kid.

Month or so ago his wife's family, wanting their daughter and only grandchild back in Krabi. Tell them they are going to put the deposit down and will cover the mortgage on a 6 mil house, if they come home and husband works for them.

They all set off to Krabi, BIL caught the bus back, no wife or kid or car,a few days ago.

He speaksvery good English, Uni educated. Asked why, this is my home and I can't live there. He grabs a rifle and heads up into the jungle.

He has 6 rai of good rubber, a big house and car are less important to him than the village and the jungle. Wife and baby will come back in a month or so. jim

Point well taken, which only again means it would not matter if the minimum wage was 200 or 1000, many will still choose to do as little as possible for whatever reasons(love jungle, or village) and complain about being poor.

That is kind of the whole point of my post, with your example, it seems not only financials do not matter to BIL, but also his wife and kid who have an opportunity at much better life, safer for the baby and more prosperous.

Don't see where it will be safer for the baby, we live in a village everyone is family. We have no front door, open house. Bedrooms have doors, some off the locks work [maybe ]

More prosperous, not really, his wife's family are loaded and it's their only grandchild.

As to other things, education and opportunities, wife and BIL were born here and attended University near BKK. Wife even attended Uni in OZ.

Just because you live in a rural area doesn't mean you can not go on to bigger things. It just means you have a choice, as to what is important to you.

Had a lad round a few months ago, may be longer. Dirt poor family no future really .Wife new him as a child. Went to BKK at 16 years old. He now owns a limo service, 10 cars and drivers. He started off in the streets, got a job driving and went from there.

His heart is still in his village. Jim

Safer in terms of medical, surely better medical facilities in a town instead of a village, better schooling.

The guy you mention, may have his heart in the village and nothing wrong with that, but he has made the money as you said so he can afford to to be in the village.

I do not think too many people on this planet like to work all their life and many would retire if they could at a very young age, but unless one is content with what he has or does not have, we have to work to accumulate for the future when older, or sick or for the kids.

The one who is content with what he has not can not start pointing fingers at those who have because they worked their butts off sacrificing everything to have it.

Thailand is not the outback of Australia flying doctor I am probably as remote as you can get. Have hospitals near by. Not good but hospitals, 2 hour drive to Ubon and you have a good hospital, if not good enough an hour on a plane gets you to BKK.

On the schooling front, that maybe a point, if you as a parent don't get invoked.

For me not really a problem, wife is a teacher and studied English in OZ [ if you believe they speak English in OZ ]

The net teaches more than a school, kids have I pads and videos in English, they will lean.

For me, I do have that westerner out look, give your kids the best chance you can.

We drive 27 km each day to take the kids to school and back, 54 km a day.

It's a Government school and free, but it is an invite only school. Just spent near on 6,000 Baht on dresses for the kids march next month and they will need the full make up job 200 Baht each.

That is not education it's just being with the right people and sorry to say in this world being smart or good at what you do does not get you as far as going to Harvard, Oxford etc.

Thailand is a land of free enterprise, if you want to work you can make it. If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to. Jim

[lemoncake]

Thailand is not the outback of Australia flying doctor I am probably as remote as you can get. Have hospitals near by. Not good but hospitals, 2 hour drive to Ubon and you have a good hospital, if not good enough an hour on a plane gets you to BKK.

On the schooling front, that maybe a point, if you as a parent don't get invoked.

For me not really a problem, wife is a teacher and studied English in OZ [ if you believe they speak English in OZ ]

The net teaches more than a school, kids have I pads and videos in English, they will lean.

For me, I do have that westerner out look, give your kids the best chance you can.

We drive 27 km each day to take the kids to school and back, 54 km a day.

It's a Government school and free, but it is an invite only school. Just spent near on 6,000 Baht on dresses for the kids march next month and they will need the full make up job 200 Baht each.

That is not education it's just being with the right people and sorry to say in this world being smart or good at what you do does not get you as far as going to Harvard, Oxford etc.

Thailand is a land of free enterprise, if you want to work you can make it. If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to. Jim

Yes Jim, i understand everything you say.

If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to

You can, but you then can not cry that you poor and everyone owes to help you

[jamescollister]

Thailand is not the outback of Australia flying doctor I am probably as remote as you can get. Have hospitals near by. Not good but hospitals, 2 hour drive to Ubon and you have a good hospital, if not good enough an hour on a plane gets you to BKK.

On the schooling front, that maybe a point, if you as a parent don't get invoked.

For me not really a problem, wife is a teacher and studied English in OZ [ if you believe they speak English in OZ ]

The net teaches more than a school, kids have I pads and videos in English, they will lean.

For me, I do have that westerner out look, give your kids the best chance you can.

We drive 27 km each day to take the kids to school and back, 54 km a day.

It's a Government school and free, but it is an invite only school. Just spent near on 6,000 Baht on dresses for the kids march next month and they will need the full make up job 200 Baht each.

That is not education it's just being with the right people and sorry to say in this world being smart or good at what you do does not get you as far as going to Harvard, Oxford etc.

Thailand is a land of free enterprise, if you want to work you can make it. If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to. Jim

Yes Jim, i understand everything you say.

If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to

You can, but you then can not cry that you poor and everyone owes to help you

When I first came here everyone thought they were rich, plenty of food. No Electricity or TV. They knew that people were starving in Cambodia and life was hard in the rice fields of Issan. TVs mobile phones, big pick up tucks have arrived, Thai soap operas show the rich living in big houses and driving Mercs and BMW's. They all want, but few get out of the hammock to work and get. Jim

[lemoncake]

Thailand is not the outback of Australia flying doctor I am probably as remote as you can get. Have hospitals near by. Not good but hospitals, 2 hour drive to Ubon and you have a good hospital, if not good enough an hour on a plane gets you to BKK.

On the schooling front, that maybe a point, if you as a parent don't get invoked.

For me not really a problem, wife is a teacher and studied English in OZ [ if you believe they speak English in OZ ]

The net teaches more than a school, kids have I pads and videos in English, they will lean.

For me, I do have that westerner out look, give your kids the best chance you can.

We drive 27 km each day to take the kids to school and back, 54 km a day.

It's a Government school and free, but it is an invite only school. Just spent near on 6,000 Baht on dresses for the kids march next month and they will need the full make up job 200 Baht each.

That is not education it's just being with the right people and sorry to say in this world being smart or good at what you do does not get you as far as going to Harvard, Oxford etc.

Thailand is a land of free enterprise, if you want to work you can make it. If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to. Jim

Yes Jim, i understand everything you say.

If you want to swing in a hammock, do a few months of rice you can do that to

You can, but you then can not cry that you poor and everyone owes to help you

When I first came here everyone thought they were rich, plenty of food. No Electricity or TV. They knew that people were starving in Cambodia and life was hard in the rice fields of Issan. TVs mobile phones, big pick up tucks have arrived, Thai soap operas show the rich living in big houses and driving Mercs and BMW's. They all want, but few get out of the hammock to work and get. Jim

Exactly my point. Not only they did not get out of hammock understanding that things do not just fall off trees, they started to demand "hand outs" and now blaming the so called "rich" (in their opinion) for them being poor, yet continue to swing in the hammock and no wage rise would change that.

[mancub]

In the west all that matters is making money.

In Thailand all that matters is having a pleasant life.

And you all want to tell the Thais they have it wrong ............

True

Why do people in the west put in the long hours, days, weeks , months and years. Usually to buy a house or pay big rents to stay out of the elements, keep food on the table and buy a big car so they can get to work.

If you removed those 3 things from a westerners needs, willing to bet things would slow down.

We have all been coned from birth to believe that what you do and where you live is the road to happiness. Jim

Take those same 3 elements out of any society and things would certainly slow down....we'd be back to living in caves and gathering berries !

Having a simplistic , pleasent life may have been applicable to previous generations of Thais ,especially in rural areas ( and still is very much valued)...but in recent times a pleasent life involves desiring the same material goods that those in the West cherish. Mobile phones, I-pads ,new motos and pick-ups don't grow on trees , even in Isaan .

How many of us would even be here if we hadn't studied well or worked hard to enable it ?

[JDGRUEN]

Quote from above ... Lemoncake ... Exactly my point. Not only they did not get out of hammock understanding that things do not just fall off trees, they started to demand "hand outs" and now blaming the so called "rich" (in their opinion) for them being poor, yet continue to swing in the hammock and no wage rise would change that..

For a moment there 'lemoncake' I thought you were describing the current state of affairs in the USA ...Well ... it seems while not intended I guess you have... But as was once wisely said ---

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. ”

―

Margaret Thatcher

[Scully]

Jim made a very good point about "missing the village", I find that a lot with Thais that work away. There is great community spirit out in the North East, people look out for each other, kids can play in the street, houses are watched and if a stranger rides into town there are always eyes on them. This area is also becoming far more prosperous with many people from down south buying up the land, new roads being built and big businesses locating here creating new opportunities.

Family, long term friends and community are far more important to Thais around here and I guess that's what draws me to it. They are definitely not on the road to ruin yet.

[lemoncake]

Quote from above ... Lemoncake ... Exactly my point. Not only they did not get out of hammock understanding that things do not just fall off trees, they started to demand "hand outs" and now blaming the so called "rich" (in their opinion) for them being poor, yet continue to swing in the hammock and no wage rise would change that..

For a moment there 'lemoncake' I thought you were describing the current state of affairs in the USA ...Well ... it seems while not intended I guess you have... But as was once wisely said ---

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. ”

―

Margaret Thatcher

You will note in my first post i did say no doubt it happens all around the world but hence i am in Thailand and not USA, no point bringing it in , though i do not think it has anything to do with socialism, because in principle not only money gets shared but the work load also.

Kibbutz in Israel is a perfect example of socialism working well, though many will argue its also starting to fail

[JDGRUEN]

Quote from above ... Lemoncake ... Exactly my point. Not only they did not get out of hammock understanding that things do not just fall off trees, they started to demand "hand outs" and now blaming the so called "rich" (in their opinion) for them being poor, yet continue to swing in the hammock and no wage rise would change that..

For a moment there 'lemoncake' I thought you were describing the current state of affairs in the USA ...Well ... it seems while not intended I guess you have... But as was once wisely said ---

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. ”

―

Margaret Thatcher

You will note in my first post i did say no doubt it happens all around the world but hence i am in Thailand and not USA, no point bringing it in , though i do not think it has anything to do with socialism, because in principle not only money gets shared but the work load also.

Kibbutz in Israel is a perfect example of socialism working well, though many will argue its also starting to fail

Okay - Please forgive me - I was just having a laugh at my own country .. I will refrain from such comments....

On the subject of a concept like a 'Kibbutz' .. the original concept I believe was that ALL inhabitants contributed to the Kibbutz micro economy in some manner or other (everyone worked in some capacity)... To the extent this precept (ALL inhabitants must work and contribute to the common good) FAILS then the concept fails ... Many years ago when I worked in remote and isolated Thai villages (Ban Nok) I don't recall seeing any freeloaders sitting around... I'm not sure what goes on today ... I'll find out first hand later this year.

[bina]

im a kibbutznik, on a kibbutz that, while not entirely like the old days, and like five or six other kibbutzim in the negev, we are still dinosaurs...

and yes, there are those that always always get away with doing nothing, and there are the parasites, but as i ahve said countless times , lving in a thai village and living on a kibbutz are very similar in that only those that really lvie there know what goes on under the outer layers, and peer pressure and status are worth more then all the money in the world.

my husband btw, korat small dinky village, cannot stand kibbutz. he lives with me but is not a kibbutznik and wouldnt do it if u paid him a million dollars. we go thru visa procedures every year here, adn people wonder why he stays, its not for the visa or the house or hte money cause he could earn three times what he earns here in jerusalem, in tel aviv and live illagally w/o a visa, no problem. ... he is perfectly fine with second hand clothes, waits to fix stuff when it starts to fall apart, hates going out, dining out or buying anything except for boy toys: new improved phone, friday night with the boys, some legal and not so legal lotteries (we put it in our budget. i buy animal stuff, he buys lottery, works out to about the same wastes of money.) he has his own side line of washing machine rent/fix for the thai workers, it coudl make tons of money, but, it worked well when a brother was handlign the money collecting and day to day aspects and hubby was the fixer. the brother went back home (visa finished) and he tried with a 'friend' . as everyone knows, family is better then friends when thais want to trust someone... so little by little the business has slowed, hubby is less active in finding fix it jobs and the 'friend' is less active in finding new clinets, we have to pay him cash as opposed to some cash and help in other ways liek with the brother, so hubby is sick and tired of it, so... slacked off... he prefers a few machines asns some sporadic side work rather then hard work, headaches, management problems, and lots of money...

kibbutzniks btw, have an extremely high work ethic to the point of obsessiveness. it is hard for us to not work. i am a hotel receptionist now, but i dont work jsut my hours.as i am a kibbutznik, i am also an owner of the business, so i often put i extra hours in high season although we dont get paid, i have a zillion vacation hours coming to me that get thrown out every year)...

many country thais really really dont like the headaches involved with managing businesses. they like to do their thing and go home. work is a neccesity, not a way of life. way of life has priority over work. with that attitude they are always looking for short work times, with high payment which is why yaabaa is such good business, and lottery is so appealing. those in the west with the protestant work ethic find that disturbing. for us, work is life. here on kibbutz even working in a hotel used to not be cdalled work. work meant getting sweaty, working long hours, and seeing a finished product. btw, even now, if someone is at home sick and is seen walking to the store to buy milk, or just going out side, everyone will talk about how that person is faking being sick. if u take a day off and people see u cleaning the house or working in the garden, they will stop and ask u with surprise, 'what, no work today?'... why? ...

i could go on forever, in general it used to bother me that my husband has a different attitude about work then i did, but frankly, ive gotten over it.