Frightening News From My Old Home

[LeCharivari]

So you mean their parents are the guilty ones who did not want to integrate?

On the contrary the first generation of immigrants (who weren't born here) made enormous efforts to integrate. What you see in those news articles are the actions of a noisy very small minority. There are approximately 2 million Muslims in the UK and the overwhelming majority lead ordinary lives just like everyone else.

Personally, as someone who lives in the UK, I get rather tired of people assuming from articles in the news that all Muslims are like that. They're in the news because they did something newsworthy not because they're Muslims. It's a bit like assuming that all the ordinary Muslims in the south of Thailand support armed insurrection.

Precisely, endure - the idea that "integration" means nothing more than aping others and publicly denying your own beliefs and values so that you somehow "fit in" is one that I just cannot accept, and which I think most people who are openly gay and want to be accepted as gays and "integrated" as gays would also find pretty abhorrent.

Integration is about respecting others and, hopefully, being respected in your own right - adding spice to the meal rather than just being absorbed by it.

One thing that really makes my skin crawl in Thailand are those farangs who are totally convinced they are "integrated" in Thai culture and Thai ways but are nothing more than an embarrasment to everyone around them - farang and Thai. They wai everybody from the bus conductor to the street sweeper and then insist on "helping" the food vendors cooking noodles. The last thing they are is "integrated"!

You are mixing up integration with copying, and bring an example of trying to copy without understanding.

Actually I'm doing the opposite - I'm highlighting the difference between conformity and integration, which as you rightly say is about "respect and understanding each other".

[tombkk]

And just who are the worst for moving to another culture and not integrating? The truth now.

I don't know the answer. Farangs in Thailand?

No, I have been here for seven years, and have never met a farang who hates Thais and won't integrate. Say all you like about Thailand, but in my opinion, the good outweighs the bad here.

Well, your experience differs from mine. I have met many a farang who does not wish to integrate.

For myself, I agree that the good outweighs the bad here.

[tombkk]

Precisely, endure - the idea that "integration" means nothing more than aping others and publicly denying your own beliefs and values so that you somehow "fit in" is one that I just cannot accept, and which I think most people who are openly gay and want to be accepted as gays and "integrated" as gays would also find pretty abhorrent.

Integration is about respecting others and, hopefully, being respected in your own right - adding spice to the meal rather than just being absorbed by it.

One thing that really makes my skin crawl in Thailand are those farangs who are totally convinced they are "integrated" in Thai culture and Thai ways but are nothing more than an embarrasment to everyone around them - farang and Thai. They wai everybody from the bus conductor to the street sweeper and then insist on "helping" the food vendors cooking noodles. The last thing they are is "integrated"!

You are mixing up integration with copying, and bring an example of trying to copy without understanding.

Actually I'm doing the opposite - I'm highlighting the difference between conformity and integration, which as you rightly say is about "respect and understanding each other".

So we agree?

On a side note, I like farangs who wai too much better than those who think they are superior and don't wai at all.

[endure]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/imam-speaks-out-against-muslim-vigilantes-8468870.html

[tombkk]

http://www.independe...es-8468870.html

Thanks for posting this.

[NoshowJones]

What exactly is intregating? Does it mean I should start doing the things Thais do? I'm certainly not going to ride my motorbike on the sidewalk or the wrong side of the road, I'm not going to give up my seat on the bus or skytrain to a five year old. Again, I am not going to expect any Thais to change anything to do with there way of life for me, then again I'm not going to accept a Thai putting my well being at risk by riding their motorbike close to me on the sidewalk. If I see a Farang and a Thai fighting, I am not going to jump in and help the Farang along with other Farangs. I don't expect any special favours because I am a Farang. I will give the Buddhist religion every respect, and use the wai when I greet Thai people.

So the question is this, am I intregating into Thai culture or not?

[endure]

Posts have been removed. The topic is about a very small number of criminals in East London and is not an excuse to take a pop at a whole religion.

[LeCharivari]

Precisely, endure - the idea that "integration" means nothing more than aping others and publicly denying your own beliefs and values so that you somehow "fit in" is one that I just cannot accept, and which I think most people who are openly gay and want to be accepted as gays and "integrated" as gays would also find pretty abhorrent.

Integration is about respecting others and, hopefully, being respected in your own right - adding spice to the meal rather than just being absorbed by it.

One thing that really makes my skin crawl in Thailand are those farangs who are totally convinced they are "integrated" in Thai culture and Thai ways but are nothing more than an embarrasment to everyone around them - farang and Thai. They wai everybody from the bus conductor to the street sweeper and then insist on "helping" the food vendors cooking noodles. The last thing they are is "integrated"!

You are mixing up integration with copying, and bring an example of trying to copy without understanding.

Actually I'm doing the opposite - I'm highlighting the difference between conformity and integration, which as you rightly say is about "respect and understanding each other".

So we agree?

On a side note, I like farangs who wai too much better than those who think they are superior and don't wai at all.

Well .... OK ... generally!

As for waiing too much or too little, I hardly "wai at all", except to monks - there's simply far too much room for either making a complete idiot of yourself (and I don't need any help to do that) or of offending someone. That doesn't mean that I feel in any way superior, just that I am admitting my ignorance - after all, the present and the last prime-ministers, and a number of their predecessors, had to have extra "wai" coaching when they took over the post (no, I'm not joking) to make sure they got it right so what hope is there for me? A simple smile is just as acceptable from a foreigner, if not more so.

[catmac]

".............. A simple smile is just as acceptable from a foreigner, if not more so."

My feeling exactly, LeC. Nothing at all to do with feeling "superior", just a frank admission that I doubt if 1 in a 1000 farangs master completely the intricacies of the Thai Wai. Integrating doesn't mean that we should try to become Thai, or ape every single Thai trait. There's no way that I would expect my housekeeper to crawl round on her knees as per the hi-so households portrayed in TV soaps, for example.

[tombkk]

".............. A simple smile is just as acceptable from a foreigner, if not more so."

My feeling exactly, LeC. Nothing at all to do with feeling "superior", just a frank admission that I doubt if 1 in a 1000 farangs master completely the intricacies of the Thai Wai. Integrating doesn't mean that we should try to become Thai, or ape every single Thai trait. There's no way that I would expect my housekeeper to crawl round on her knees as per the hi-so households portrayed in TV soaps, for example.

Integrating and aping (copying, as I said above) are indeed very different things. And no, a foreigner will not likely be perfect in his wai, it's the thought that counts.

I am worried if you think that Thai Lakorn on TV represents contemporary Thai cultural practice...

[candypants]

having just watched the video my impression is that it is homophobia pure and simple and has very little to do with Islam, though it may seem a convenient excuse

The perpetrators are clearly second generation at least, and despite the mention that "thiis is a muslim area" the video is more about harassment for harassment sake than it is about religion.

the guy speaking could be any chav with a video camera on his smart phone, just seems he is a muslim chav.

Edited February 2, 2013 by candypants

[LeCharivari]

".............. A simple smile is just as acceptable from a foreigner, if not more so."

My feeling exactly, LeC. Nothing at all to do with feeling "superior", just a frank admission that I doubt if 1 in a 1000 farangs master completely the intricacies of the Thai Wai. Integrating doesn't mean that we should try to become Thai, or ape every single Thai trait. There's no way that I would expect my housekeeper to crawl round on her knees as per the hi-so households portrayed in TV soaps, for example.

Integrating and aping (copying, as I said above) are indeed very different things. And no, a foreigner will not likely be perfect in his wai, it's the thought that counts.

I am worried if you think that Thai Lakorn on TV represents contemporary Thai cultural practice...

In many cases it still does, Tom - household staff in many Thai households are still never permitted to put their heads above those of their employers, whatever the circumstances, and if that means having to crawl around on their knees to serve coffee because their "betters" are sitting down then that is what they are required to do - and what many expect to do.

The first time I met one "Mom" here I had no idea who she was or why everyone in my friend's office was almost prostrate on the floor when I opened the office door to talk to my friend; she was very unusual in that she was well known for refusing any police escorts, etc, or even a bodyguard. She smiled, called me in, we were introduced, I bowed my head as I have done before when meeting members of various royal families, and called her "Ma'am" while she called me by my first name and insisted that I sat on a chair near her and chatted - her father had gone to the same school as me and we both loved dogs (I had noticed her driver outside walking her black cocker) so at least we had something to talk about. Whenever I met her later the last thing she expected (or wanted) me to do was to walk over to her on my knees after she recognised me - although that was what everyone else did.

When I was working in an Arab (Muslim) Army, where it was the law for all locals to wear traditional arab dress in public (there used to be a queue outside the plane's toilets when coming to Thailand on holiday!) it would have been ridiculous for me too to wear a dish-dasha or djellaba, although I wore a shemagh as part of my uniform. My only concession on dress was that during Ramadhan I always wore a long sleeved shirt and long jogging trousers when out running, despite the heat - and when on a "fuddle" (desert picnic) I always took care never to use my left hand when helping myself to the communal bowl of goat or camel!

Integration has little to do with adopting or copying local practices, but is about accepting and respecting them - they're very different things.

[tombkk]

This is the second time when you start off as if you are contradicting me, only to confirm what I said in the last sentence.

By the way, when I lived in Damascus, I did wear the djellaba. Not because I was copying them, but because I really liked it - much more comfortable in the heat than western clothes. But then, I was also mistaken for an Arab in the streets due to my looks, I don't know what a blond 2-meter-tall European would look like!

[LeCharivari]

This is the second time when you start off as if you are contradicting me, only to confirm what I said in the last sentence.

I AM contradicting you - "I am worried if you think that Thai Lakorn on TV represents contemporary Thai cultural practice..." - in many Thai fully staffed households that's exactly what it represents.

... and I DON'T think that "its the thought that counts" with wais, as doing it inappropriately (rather than incorrectly) can not only make you look stupid but can be embarrasing for Thais who may not be sure how to react.

Its a bit like saying that "its the thought that counts" when you greet a man in the Gulf by kissing him (common in many cultures) and you don't know whether to kiss him on the cheeks or on the lips - either or both of which are appropriate depending on the circumstances and the culture, and either or both of which could be totally inappropriate and more than just embarrasing if done inappropriately.

By the way, when I lived in Damascus, I did wear the djellaba. Not because I was copying them, but because I really liked it - much more comfortable in the heat than western clothes. But then, I was also mistaken for an Arab in the streets due to my looks, I don't know what a blond 2-meter-tall European would look like!

On someone who looks like an Arab (or at least someone from the sub-continent) a djellaba would be a perfectly reasonable thing to wear - and required wear for many Muslims working in some Gulf countries. I'm neither blond nor 2m tall, but trying to look like Laurence of Arabia when going shopping would simply have been ridiculous - even though in uniform, with a shemagh, the Americans assumed that I was an Arab until I spoke to them.