The Legal Right To Remove Your Body From A Thai Mortuary

[JeffreyMcCollum]

When my best friend died when we were traveling here 3 years back, everyone was more than helpful. I was just a friend nothing more, but the body was sent and handled just how I wanted and everything was very easy.

I would assume is one is really married to a Thai, the spouse would have little trouble and getting things done as I have seem before.

If it's just some bar girl, or other rented girl you call your girl friend, yes, they may want to contact family or your Embassy.

I'm afraid it's not the simple here. Even a lawfully wedded spouse of decades duration needs a document from the foreigner's Embassy in order for the morgue to release the body.

I am afraid you don't know what your talking about. Friend died and I did just that. Did you ever have to deal with a death here ? really ? And Married, truly, to a Thai and living here, the Embassy has nothing to do with it.

[NancyL]

Just yesterday the head of Consular services from the British Embassy spoke to the CM Expats Club. His talk was full of statistics about the different services his section performs for British citizens in Thailand. He mentioned that the number of deaths they handled was very high for the size of the population served because, unlike other countries, a foreigner's Embassy (or Consulate) has to be involved and issue legal documents before the family, even a legally married Thai wife, can claim a foreigner's body.

Apparently, in other countries, like Spain, a family can claim a foreigner's body without the Embassy even being notified of the death. Not the case in Thailand, according to him.

[up2you2]

When my best friend died when we were traveling here 3 years back, everyone was more than helpful. I was just a friend nothing more, but the body was sent and handled just how I wanted and everything was very easy.

I would assume is one is really married to a Thai, the spouse would have little trouble and getting things done as I have seem before.

If it's just some bar girl, or other rented girl you call your girl friend, yes, they may want to contact family or your Embassy.

I'm afraid it's not the simple here. Even a lawfully wedded spouse of decades duration needs a document from the foreigner's Embassy in order for the morgue to release the body.

I am afraid you don't know what your talking about. Friend died and I did just that. Did you ever have to deal with a death here ? really ? And Married, truly, to a Thai and living here, the Embassy has nothing to do with it.

Fair enough, but would you be kind enough to confirm if the body was released from a morgue or a hospital?

I'm sure this does happen sometimes, because this is Thailand.

Exactly which part are you located in?

[NancyL]

Yes, I have "been involved" in several deaths in Chiang Mai. In one case, the Thai wife was extremely distraught because she'd already scheduled the service at the Wat and the morgue wouldn't release the body without all the appropriate paperwork from the Consulate. Every case that I know of -- American and British (so far), the consulate has played a key role in the final arrangements. Also, every case that I've known of, if the death occurs outside a hospital, the body is brought to a morgue -- not just left at home for family members to handle.

Practices may differ in other parts of Thailand, but as someone who be involved in helping elderly foreigners (some of whom end up dying), I am definitely speaking from first-hand knowledge.

[diddums]

THe following is a list of who is considered the person who can act on behalf of a deceased person in Western Australia. The Australian Embassy would be obliged to act in this way. Other states have similar provisions.

Senior next of kin

The senior next of kin is the first person who

is available, from the following people:

l a person who, immediately before the death,

was living with the person and was either:

i. legally married to the person

ii. aged 18 years or over and in a marriage-

like relationship with the person

l a son or daughter, who is 18 years or over

l a parent of the person

l a brother or sister, who is 18 or over

l an executor named in the will of the deceased

or a person who, immediately before the death,

was a personal representative of the deceased

l any person nominated by the person to be

contacted in an emergancy

http://www.coronersc...es_Suddenly.pdf

I don't know if the order of the above is important; I hope not, as it is slightly distressing that your appointed executor ranks so far down the list. Again, it highlights the importance of formalising your relationship with the appropriate marriage documentation

I disagree...the executor can be anyone and could be your lawyer. I would hate to see his per minute charges to arrange all of this for a dead body....on top of his executor fees.

I would much prefer to see the ones listed in order be the ones given first and foremost rights.

It is true that in some circumstances black magic could be at play by evil wives, but usually not....

As an example, if I was to knock off my wife, it would be very handy if I could get the body out and cremated before any smell of a bad rat rose.

[TommoPhysicist]

I have had to dealt with the aftermath of his death arranging for Death Benefit to be paid by the UK Government and to collecting whatever UK assets that could be realised. Unfortunately my friend died intestate so his assets would accrue to his next of kin i.e. his Thai wife. His grasping UK offspring made representation to his bank stating that their father was a single unattached man and that they were his next of kin, so the bank handed over the credit balance of his account. Unfortunately for them I was above to produce a copy of his marriage certificate, his widow's Thai ID card, a copy of her passport and confirmation of her N.I. number. A similar exercise was carried out with his two pension funds. Members of his crooked family had to return the monies that they had collected and the last that I heard they were being charged by the police with obtaining money by false pretenses. It has been a long slog to put things right since the bank and pension providers would not use the Internet to communicate.

You have this wrong,

Under Thai law the wife gets 50%, the children divide the remaining 50%.

Under UK law the wife gets everything.

So in Thailand the son was perfect within his rights to remove items valued at less than 50% of his Thai estate, but in the UK he was wrong to take anything. As for pension funds, they all have get out clauses that state, up to the pension board who gets what if anything.

My particular pension fund gives one third to a wife, one sixth each to the two youngest children ...... if any of those three don't exist, pension fund wins.

Edited January 27, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[isanbirder]

Yes, I have "been involved" in several deaths in Chiang Mai. In one case, the Thai wife was extremely distraught because she'd already scheduled the service at the Wat and the morgue wouldn't release the body without all the appropriate paperwork from the Consulate. Every case that I know of -- American and British (so far), the consulate has played a key role in the final arrangements. Also, every case that I've known of, if the death occurs outside a hospital, the body is brought to a morgue -- not just left at home for family members to handle.

Practices may differ in other parts of Thailand, but as someone who be involved in helping elderly foreigners (some of whom end up dying), I am definitely speaking from first-hand knowledge.

Like you, NancyL, I've been directly involved.... even more directly, as it was my own partner, a Hongkong British citizen (the year before the Chinese takeaway). He had donated his body to the hospital in which he died (Maharaj, in Chiangmai), and even then, the morgue could not release the body to the medical school until they had authority from his family, even though he was 46 years old, and had been independent of them for years. The British Consulate were very helpful in contacting his family and getting the authorisation from them, but it was my understanding that the BC merely acted as a conduit, and did not itself give the authorisation. The letter of authorisation from the family authorised me to do all that was necessary.

[maturebrit]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NancyL]

The website of the American Consulate in Chiang Mai spells out the precedure -- note it states that the Embassy/Consulate is always notified in the event of the death of citizen. It doesn't say they "authorize release" of the body, but it is their role to provide documentation to the morgue about who does have the ability to release the body:

The Thai authorities inform the Embassy upon the death of an American Citizen anywhere in Thailand. We then find the Next-of-Kin of the deceased and contact that person as soon as possible. There are several important things that the Next-of-Kin must do in conjunction with the ACS office. These include:

• Returning a signed and notarized "Affidavit of Next-of-Kin"
  
• Choosing method of disposition of remains
  
• Arranging payment of mortuary and related expenses in Thailand
  
• Arranging return of any personal possessions of the deceased
  

Affidavit of Next-of-Kin and Letter of Instruction

To act on the family's behalf, the Embassy must have a signed, notarized copy of a document called an “Affidavit of Next-of-Kin.” This form is critical because it shows us who is entitled to make the decisions regarding the deceased. Families should first fax or scan and email us a completed copy, and then mail the original.

Next-of-Kin are established in the following order:

1. Spouse
   
2. Children
   
3. Parents
   
4. Siblings
   
5. Grandparents
   

Additionally, Next-of-Kin should fill out and sign a "Letter of Instruction" and fax or scan and email us a copy. This letter will tell us exactly how to handle the deceased's body.

The British Consulate/Embassy website doesn't spell out their procedure as explicitly, but it's worked the same way with the few British cases I've been involved with. This means that the morgue won't release a body to a woman claiming to be the deceased's legal wife without the appropriate document from the Consulate/Embassy saying she is indeed the next-of-kin.

Edited January 27, 2013 by NancyL

[isanbirder]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If I understand it aright, your commonlaw wife is not officially your wife by Thai law. For her sake, if I were you, I would rectify this.

You may well feel that the Embassy is unhelpful, but you have no choice in the matter. They will get in on the act. And after your demise, you will not be able to do much about it.

[maturebrit]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If I understand it aright, your commonlaw wife is not officially your wife by Thai law. For her sake, if I were you, I would rectify this.

You may well feel that the Embassy is unhelpful, but you have no choice in the matter. They will get in on the act. And after your demise, you will not be able to do much about it.

Then I will have an affitdavit drawn up giving her full and total authority as my next of kin and therefore capable of looking after my two children who have my name on their birth certificates.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[diddums]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If I understand it aright, your commonlaw wife is not officially your wife by Thai law. For her sake, if I were you, I would rectify this.

You may well feel that the Embassy is unhelpful, but you have no choice in the matter. They will get in on the act. And after your demise, you will not be able to do much about it.

Then I will have an affitdavit drawn up giving her full and total authority as my next of kin and therefore capable of looking after my two children who have my name on their birth certificates.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

put her in your will as executer

[up2you2]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If I understand it aright, your commonlaw wife is not officially your wife by Thai law. For her sake, if I were you, I would rectify this.

You may well feel that the Embassy is unhelpful, but you have no choice in the matter. They will get in on the act. And after your demise, you will not be able to do much about it.

Then I will have an affitdavit drawn up giving her full and total authority as my next of kin and therefore capable of looking after my two children who have my name on their birth certificates.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

put her in your will as executer

This is the very point I have been trying to make, since my OP on this topic.

Drawing up Wills, naming common law wives as Executors, at the end of the day is a waste of time.

As far as I know there is not a hospital or morgue in Thailand, that will release a foreigner's body, without an official "Letter of Release" from the appropriate Embassy concerned.

[diddums]

put her in your will as executer

This is the very point I have been trying to make, since my OP on this topic.

Drawing up Wills, naming common law wives as Executors, at the end of the day is a waste of time.

As far as I know there is not a hospital or morgue in Thailand, that will release a foreigner's body, without an official "Letter of Release" from the appropriate Embassy concerned.

Yes but its also about whom the Embassy will give the release to ...right ?

[Terry Newman]

Actually this is an important issue. I have named my partner my executor in my will and given instructions for her to complete my funeral arrangements and would like to know if that is sufficient for the Australian Embassy to release my body to her. She will have enough to worry about without dealing with too much stupid red tape.

Actually this is good thinking. I had not given it much thought. Thanks to the OP for starting this thread. I am going to do a will ASAP.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Terry Newman

[harrry]

So summerising what we know so far.

It is the embassy that gives the permission to bury form.

It seems that succession laws vary between countries.

It appears Australia recognises domestic parnerships and gives them prime position in deciding NOK.

It seems the US and UK may not do this.

Has anyone any more on what other countries may recognise.

Edited January 28, 2013 by harrry

[up2you2]

put her in your will as executer

This is the very point I have been trying to make, since my OP on this topic.

Drawing up Wills, naming common law wives as Executors, at the end of the day is a waste of time.

As far as I know there is not a hospital or morgue in Thailand, that will release a foreigner's body, without an official "Letter of Release" from the appropriate Embassy concerned.

Yes but its also about whom the Embassy will give the release to ...right ?

The Embassy solely acts as a conduit.

They get in touch with the next of kin, as in those who the deceased was directly related to.

Once the next of kin give their permission, as to who they would like to nominate, for the release of the body to, then the Embassy will issue their official "Letter of Release" document.

Reading the previous posts seemingly some Embassies have a priority list as to who they get in touch with first.

[NancyL]

The Embassies don't "authorize" removal of foreigner's bodies from the morgues, they simply produce a document of notification of whom is the person authorized to make this decision. As has been suggested -- if you want your "Thai common-law wife" to be the one making the decisions, then name her in your Will as executor.

I guess I'm of an older generation, but I just don't understand why people refuse to go down to the amphur office and "legalize" a marriage and then pay a visit to their embassy/consulate.

Oh wait, it just dawned on me. Maybe those people can't get a "freedom to marry" letter from their consulate/embassy. Oh wow, you haven't seen big trouble until you've seen the mess a "former" wife can create when she learns her "husband" died in Thailand, especially if it's a death outside a hospital and she thinks the "common law" wife had a role. Please, please for the sake of the workload of the embassy/consulate staffs, do the right thing while you're still alive.

Edited January 28, 2013 by NancyL

[up2you2]

The Embassies don't "authorize" removal of foreigner's bodies from the morgues, they simply produce a document of notification of whom is the person authorized to make this decision. As has been suggested -- if you want your "Thai common-law wife" to be the one making the decisions, then name her in your Will as executor.

I guess I'm of an older generation, but I just don't understand why people refuse to go down to the amphur office and "legalize" a marriage and then pay a visit to their embassy/consulate.

Oh wait, it just dawned on me. Maybe those people can't get a "freedom to marry" letter from their consulate/embassy. Oh wow, you haven't seen big trouble until you've seen the mess a "former" wife can create when she learns her "husband" died in Thailand, especially if it's a death outside a hospital and she thinks the "common law" wife had a role. Please, please for the sake of the workload of the embassy/consulate staffs, do the right thing while you're still alive.

Naming your common law wife in your Will, as executor, with the power to collect your body from a morgue, yes maybe your Embassy may accept this.

Ask them to confirm it in writing.

Various posters have suggested marriage as a solution, with consequences from the previous marriage, isn't that an oxymoron.

There's only one reason I haven't got divorced during my lifetime, simple because I refused to get married.

[noob7]

When I'm dead and not believing in reincarnation, do I care?

I should think about it.

Maybe

[simple1]

I have just spoken with Consular Services at the Australian Embassy and they confirmed the following.

Hospitals & RTP are required under international conventions to inform the Embassy of an Australia citizens death in Thailand. If you die at home the doctor is meant to contact RTP.

If you are married your partner will need to fax a copy of the marriage certificate with their contact details to 02 344 6310. Upon receipt they will either contact the hospital or RTP to confirm release of your body to your wife. If no fax facility at home for a reply the Embassy will phone your wife to confirm release of the body.

If for religious reasons you do not wish for an autopsy to be undertaken the police will respect this request.

The wife needs to confirm if you have relatives who need to be contacted or not; they will accept verbal confirmation from the wife.

Underlined you should have a registered Will with the Amphur that includes instructions on how you wish to dispose of your body.

To those saying it's none of the Embassies business when you die, you could be setting up your local family for a bureaucratic nightmare, if they are not informed of the process to follow should the Thai authorities inform the Embassy.

[up2you2]

I have just spoken with Consular Services at the Australian Embassy and they confirmed the following.

Hospitals & RTP are required under international conventions to inform the Embassy of an Australia citizens death in Thailand. If you die at home the doctor is meant to contact RTP.

If you are married your partner will need to fax a copy of the marriage certificate with their contact details to 02 344 6310. Upon receipt they will either contact the hospital or RTP to confirm release of your body to your wife. If no fax facility at home for a reply the Embassy will phone your wife to confirm release of the body.

If for religious reasons you do not wish for an autopsy to be undertaken the police will respect this request.

The wife needs to confirm if you have relatives who need to be contacted or not; they will accept verbal confirmation from the wife.

Underlined you should have a registered Will with the Amphur that includes instructions on how you wish to dispose of your body.

To those saying it's none of the Embassies business when you die, you could be setting up your local family for a bureaucratic nightmare, if they are not informed of the process to follow should the Thai authorities inform the Embassy.

Regrettable you did confirm the whole purpose of this thread, when it comes down to specifically common law wives - not married.

Would they accept a Will authorising the common law wife collection rights from the morgue, without first having to get in touch with the deceased's next of kin?

I would be very surprised if there's an Embassy in Thailand that would agree to this verbally, and what's more in writing.

[simple1]

I have just spoken with Consular Services at the Australian Embassy and they confirmed the following.

Hospitals & RTP are required under international conventions to inform the Embassy of an Australia citizens death in Thailand. If you die at home the doctor is meant to contact RTP.

If you are married your partner will need to fax a copy of the marriage certificate with their contact details to 02 344 6310. Upon receipt they will either contact the hospital or RTP to confirm release of your body to your wife. If no fax facility at home for a reply the Embassy will phone your wife to confirm release of the body.

If for religious reasons you do not wish for an autopsy to be undertaken the police will respect this request.

The wife needs to confirm if you have relatives who need to be contacted or not; they will accept verbal confirmation from the wife.

Underlined you should have a registered Will with the Amphur that includes instructions on how you wish to dispose of your body.

To those saying it's none of the Embassies business when you die, you could be setting up your local family for a bureaucratic nightmare, if they are not informed of the process to follow should the Thai authorities inform the Embassy.

Regrettable you did confirm the whole purpose of this thread, when it comes down to specifically common law wives - not married.

Would they accept a Will authorising the common law wife collection rights from the morgue, without first having to get in touch with the deceased's next of kin?

I would be very surprised if there's an Embassy in Thailand that would agree to this verbally, and what's more in writing.

As this issue is of interest I again contacted Consular Services. They advised that a common law wife is acceptable. However they would need to contact the hospital or RFP to confirm this is the case. e.g. has common law wife attended the hospital and identified herself. Again underlined should have a registered Will identifying the common law wife as a beneficiary etc Confirmed they would take at face value advise from common law wife as she would be the primary person. I guess if one is uncomfortable with this would need to inform and register your presence in Thailand with the Embassy and next of kin to be contacted in case of death. Not a lawyer so someone may wish to add comments.

[noob7]

.

To those saying it's none of the Embassies business when you die, you could be setting up your local family for a bureaucratic nightmare, if they are not informed of the process to follow should the Thai authorities inform the Embassy.

But hasn't all of this more to do with pension and other payments, that are connected to your life?

Actually one more reason, that I wouldn't be surprised, if there is a loophole.

No one like it, if the cash flow into Los is shrinking.

Edited January 29, 2013 by noob7

[Mario2008]

When you die your next of kin decide what to do with your body. In the case of a foreigner, the embassy is always notified who in turn notifies the family of the deceased.

If you are married, the suviving spouse and/or children will be the next of kin. So they will decide what will happen and can take the family. When in Thailand, that is easy and mostimes no further embassy involvement. If the family is in anotehr country, famly has to be notified and they have to decide what to do. Bring the body back or have a funeral in Thailand, with connecting price tag.

Always best to have a will in which you state your wishes about your funeral and who to notify, etc. But also with details about life insurence, pension plans etc. Can save a lot of grief.

[harrry]

I have just spoken with Consular Services at the Australian Embassy and they confirmed the following.

Hospitals & RTP are required under international conventions to inform the Embassy of an Australia citizens death in Thailand. If you die at home the doctor is meant to contact RTP.

If you are married your partner will need to fax a copy of the marriage certificate with their contact details to 02 344 6310. Upon receipt they will either contact the hospital or RTP to confirm release of your body to your wife. If no fax facility at home for a reply the Embassy will phone your wife to confirm release of the body.

If for religious reasons you do not wish for an autopsy to be undertaken the police will respect this request.

The wife needs to confirm if you have relatives who need to be contacted or not; they will accept verbal confirmation from the wife.

Underlined you should have a registered Will with the Amphur that includes instructions on how you wish to dispose of your body.

To those saying it's none of the Embassies business when you die, you could be setting up your local family for a bureaucratic nightmare, if they are not informed of the process to follow should the Thai authorities inform the Embassy.

Regrettable you did confirm the whole purpose of this thread, when it comes down to specifically common law wives - not married.

Would they accept a Will authorising the common law wife collection rights from the morgue, without first having to get in touch with the deceased's next of kin?

I would be very surprised if there's an Embassy in Thailand that would agree to this verbally, and what's more in writing.

As this issue is of interest I again contacted Consular Services. They advised that a common law wife is acceptable. However they would need to contact the hospital or RFP to confirm this is the case. e.g. has common law wife attended the hospital and identified herself. Again underlined should have a registered Will identifying the common law wife as a beneficiary etc Confirmed they would take at face value advise from common law wife as she would be the primary person. I guess if one is uncomfortable with this would need to inform and register your presence in Thailand with the Embassy and next of kin to be contacted in case of death. Not a lawyer so someone may wish to add comments.

Thanks for that. I had emailed the embassy pointing out this thread and the concerns people had and asked suggested they respond and also update the not very good information on the website and smarttraveller site. As yet I have not got a further response but it seems you have all the details. Thanks.

[candypants]

very interesting as I have no UK family connections and a commonlaw Thai wife and two children here. I wrote her a letter giving her full authority to deal with any arrangements coupled with all assets. the British Embassy here and in many other countries have never been of any assistance and I refuse to be dictated to after my demise

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

If I understand it aright, your commonlaw wife is not officially your wife by Thai law. For her sake, if I were you, I would rectify this.

You may well feel that the Embassy is unhelpful, but you have no choice in the matter. They will get in on the act. And after your demise, you will not be able to do much about it.

Then I will have an affitdavit drawn up giving her full and total authority as my next of kin and therefore capable of looking after my two children who have my name on their birth certificates.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

put her in your will as executer

i suspect wordplay

[Route21]

When you die your next of kin decide what to do with your body. In the case of a foreigner, the embassy is always notified who in turn notifies the family of the deceased.

Just a thought ....

If it's the police/hospital that notifies the embassy, how does they know who your current wife/common law wife is?

The last contact with the embsssy may have been many years ago, notorising a "freedom to marry a Thai" letter i.e. (based on their records) not at that time officially married, without any record of an official Thai marriage having actually taken place or being still valid.

Do they just immediately start tracking down your potentially long lost relatives back home?

Regards

R21

[Mario2008]

Police can check if you have relatives (wife/children) in Thailand and some will also have registered it with their embassy.

Each embassy works in its own way, but suspect they will inquire about relatives etc with the police and they will contact the family. Also the visa one is one will be important. Someone who dies on a tourist visa is more unlikely to have famly in Thailand, but might be traveling with someone else.

[Route21]

Police can check if you have relatives (wife/children) in Thailand and some will also have registered it with their embassy.

Each embassy works in its own way, but suspect they will inquire about relatives etc with the police and they will contact the family. Also the visa one is one will be important. Someone who dies on a tourist visa is more unlikely to have famly in Thailand, but might be traveling with someone else.

I suspect it depends, primarily, on whether the Thai relative is there at the time.

There are nany offshore expat workers in the middle east that have a 1-month on, 1-month off work schedule and a Thai partner. They would only need a "30 day tourist visa on arrival" each time to visit their partner in Thailand. They would most probably be travelling alone.

A hire car accident on the way up to Issan after an overnight flight is all it takes and the police/embassy have no immediate knowledge of the Thai partner. Even their colleagues/employers are unlikely to have contact details, other than perhaps the expat's email address/mobile number.

Regards

R21