F1 2013

[Guest]

woo hoo! Mclaren team orders, perez not allowed to try button on.

That's probably to avoid collision as Perez still have to prove himself in the team.

Which teams would allow real fight between drivers?

Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, Mercedes likely not.

Force india, Red Bull, and the reset of the pack more likely would allow it. The rest of the pack might put a stop if they would be getting good points in the race.

[Guest]

Ferrari is definitely stronger than it has been for an while. Qualifications gave almost exactly same time to both Ferraris. Not so fast as Mercedes, but close enough.

Alonso pretty much controlled the race. At the start I thought that Massa would have taken the second place, but it did not happen. Räikkönen could do one stop less than others, as usual. Once again, not smiling Finn who lost and got second place.

Both Mercedes drivers dropped down as expected. They have the one lap speed, but tire consumption is just too much in longer run. I guess Hamilton have always had aggressive driving style, which is not good when there is the need to take care of the tires. But how about Rosberg, is he the same?

McLaren looked pretty bad at the qualifications and the start of the race, but they still managed to get some points. Not much but some at least.

The driver championship situation is pretty close. Vettel, Räikkönen and Alonso are withing 17 points. What will happen later on? Will Ferrari keep on improving and what can Lotus and Red Bull say to that?

[F430murci]

F1I have been racing since 13 in everything from Formula Atlantict Champ Atlantic in open and primarily gt3 cup car in closed wheel. I love everything racing and spend weekends instructing for Barbar, PBOC, SCCA, Chen, PCNA, BMW CCA, and etc.

That being said, I can barely watch F1 any more. This is not racing. I can find more entertainment on a track any summer weekend watching spec Miatas going at it. Even Indy has surpassed F1 in entertainment. Crazy thrilling passes for top 5 spots last week in Brazil with Sato blocking my good friend and up and coming Newgarden, Hinchcliff and many passes on a dangerous closed course for top 5 spots during last 3 laps.

Haimilton saying he cannot drive any slower, Mercedes coming out in fuel save mode, no crowding, no blocking, no driving, no nothing. This is a bit like watching a driving school with pass only on the right with a waive around. BORING.

I think Indy car racing is a matter of choice as to whether one thinks it's better than F1 but oval tracks while not being the majority of racing venues probably amount to 33% and having watched the 500 numerous times it's not for me and Nascar, well whatever floats ones boat I guess.

With such a busy weekend schedule of instructing your favourite forms of motorsport then obviously your view of F1 being so boring gives you more time to indulge in whatever alternative you prefer.

Not into NASCAR, but at least their not afraid to trade paint and go 10/10s from beginning to end. Nit sure I am seen an F1 car go 10/10s for more than 5 consecutive laps this year.

Indy courses this year have been interesting. Barber Motorsports park is a bit like my home course and a teaching venue for PCA DE schools. Great venue for Indy, although the racing and lead changes this year at Tampa and Brazil have been good racing. Long Beach tough to pass at, but these guys and gals still driving 10/10s on very tight and unforgiven circuit.

Oval stuff puts me to sleep, but F1 is dare I say even more boring. Qualifying is more exciting than the actual racing.

Indy Brazil had ten passes, maybe morr, in top five cars on last two laps. How many non lapped traffic passes all day today in F1?

[Mosha]

I'm happy the commentators voiced their opinion re the tyres. 4 stops. is ridiculous when it's part of a strategy IMO. They're is more going on in the pits than on track.

[ignis]

F1 used to be about the speed, the cars and the drivers, somehow this year is more about tyres, how slow can you go to get the most out of the tyres without them falling to bits..

wonder how much longer before just a hand-full of car get to the end ? the rest parked up with no tyres left to use ?

Pirelli Tyres, not good for there image...... last no time at all and likely to fall apart, will not be changing my car tyres to them any time soon.

[wackysleet]

Steve.

...

David.

Please use PM for private conversations. It's ok if you don't wish others to participate your conversations which are dedicated to one person, but it would be nice to keep these conversations out of the public forum as well.

Oilinki.

This was not a personal message, it was open to all posters to comment on if they so chose to and I see no real difference posting to Mosha who puts his name at the bottom of his posts as answering your post with your chosen non-de-plume.

David.

[wackysleet]

F1 used to be about the speed, the cars and the drivers, somehow this year is more about tyres, how slow can you go to get the most out of the tyres without them falling to bits..

wonder how much longer before just a hand-full of car get to the end ? the rest parked up with no tyres left to use ?

Pirelli Tyres, not good for there image...... last no time at all and likely to fall apart, will not be changing my car tyres to them any time soon.

Ignis.

I think like most people that the tyre situation has got out of hand but Pirelli in fairness to them have supplied what was requested by the FIA and the teams but the tyres used yesterday have performed better on other tracks and perhaps will be better on the cooler European tracks although I doubt it.

David.

[lomatopo]

I'm happy the commentators voiced their opinion re the tyres. 4 stops. is ridiculous when it's part of a strategy IMO. They're is more going on in the pits than on track.

Agreed. And with three, four and five stops - I think I read there were a total of 82 pit-stops yesterday - you are increasing the odds of pit mishaps, of which we saw several yesterday, both hits and near misses.

My pet peeve: these front wings which will soon be larger than the rest of the vehicle.

[wackysleet]

I'm happy the commentators voiced their opinion re the tyres. 4 stops. is ridiculous when it's part of a strategy IMO. They're is more going on in the pits than on track.

Agreed. And with three, four and five stops - I think I read there were a total of 82 pit-stops yesterday - you are increasing the odds of pit mishaps, of which we saw several yesterday, both hits and near misses.

My pet peeve: these front wings which will soon be larger than the rest of the vehicle.

I would think that the majority of the wear problems are related to the search for greater grip through the design of these wings so I wonder what the result would be if the teams sacrificed some downforce and time and possibly save having to pit so often, for example the commentators were saying 18 seconds for a pit stop with Ferrari doing 4 with Fernando, but having a 2 stop strategy albeit slightly slower they would have saved apprx 36 seconds. Perhaps they cannot see the trees for the forest after all there is usually fractions of a second difference in lap times of the top teams what they lose on the swings maybe they could make it up on the roundabout.

David.

[candypants]

woo hoo! Mclaren team orders, perez not allowed to try button on.

That's probably to avoid collision as Perez still have to prove himself in the team.

Which teams would allow real fight between drivers?

Ferrari, Lotus, McLaren, Mercedes likely not.

Force india, Red Bull, and the reset of the pack more likely would allow it. The rest of the pack might put a stop if they would be getting good points in the race.

thats all fine and dandy, but considering whitmarsh has be telling anybody who will listen that Maclaren allows its drivers to race, the teams actions were hypocritical

[F430murci]

I'm happy the commentators voiced their opinion re the tyres. 4 stops. is ridiculous when it's part of a strategy IMO. They're is more going on in the pits than on track.

Agreed. And with three, four and five stops - I think I read there were a total of 82 pit-stops yesterday - you are increasing the odds of pit mishaps, of which we saw several yesterday, both hits and near misses.

My pet peeve: these front wings which will soon be larger than the rest of the vehicle.

I would think that the majority of the wear problems are related to the search for greater grip through the design of these wings so I wonder what the result would be if the teams sacrificed some downforce and time and possibly save having to pit so often, for example the commentators were saying 18 seconds for a pit stop with Ferrari doing 4 with Fernando, but having a 2 stop strategy albeit slightly slower they would have saved apprx 36 seconds. Perhaps they cannot see the trees for the forest after all there is usually fractions of a second difference in lap times of the top teams what they lose on the swings maybe they could make it up on the roundabout.

David.

Didn't F1 politely suggest to Pirelli that they develop a higher degradation tire this year to spice up the show so to speak. The problem is taking entertainment factor out of drivers hands and relying upon tire manufacturer to create a high degradation tire to infuse excitement. I don't doubt for a minute that Pirelli could make a tire that could handle the down force. That is just not what F1 wanted. Hence we get F1 racing at 9/10s or maybe 8/10s parade laps. Who wants that?

[wackysleet]

I'm happy the commentators voiced their opinion re the tyres. 4 stops. is ridiculous when it's part of a strategy IMO. They're is more going on in the pits than on track.

Agreed. And with three, four and five stops - I think I read there were a total of 82 pit-stops yesterday - you are increasing the odds of pit mishaps, of which we saw several yesterday, both hits and near misses.

My pet peeve: these front wings which will soon be larger than the rest of the vehicle.

I would think that the majority of the wear problems are related to the search for greater grip through the design of these wings so I wonder what the result would be if the teams sacrificed some downforce and time and possibly save having to pit so often, for example the commentators were saying 18 seconds for a pit stop with Ferrari doing 4 with Fernando, but having a 2 stop strategy albeit slightly slower they would have saved apprx 36 seconds. Perhaps they cannot see the trees for the forest after all there is usually fractions of a second difference in lap times of the top teams what they lose on the swings maybe they could make it up on the roundabout.

David.

Didn't F1 politely suggest to Pirelli that they develop a higher degradation tire this year to spice up the show so to speak. The problem is taking entertainment factor out of drivers hands and relying upon tire manufacturer to create a high degradation tire to infuse excitement. I don't doubt for a minute that Pirelli could make a tire that could handle the down force. That is just not what F1 wanted. Hence we get F1 racing at 9/10s or maybe 8/10s parade laps. Who wants that?

Without doubt Pirelli could produce any tyre required by the FIA or the manufacturers but the problem is whatever regs are in place there is always some fault that after awhile produces a procession.

If there were stops for fuel and tyres it would still mean the same few teams winning and subsequently fewer teams lower down being in a financial position to maintain a team and putting a limit on how much cash can be spent would make for all cars being pretty much the same but I'm sure there are posters on here that may have some good ideas to improve things so let's hear some suggestions although last years racing was entertaining.

David.

[F430murci]

Agreed. And with three, four and five stops - I think I read there were a total of 82 pit-stops yesterday - you are increasing the odds of pit mishaps, of which we saw several yesterday, both hits and near misses.

My pet peeve: these front wings which will soon be larger than the rest of the vehicle.

I would think that the majority of the wear problems are related to the search for greater grip through the design of these wings so I wonder what the result would be if the teams sacrificed some downforce and time and possibly save having to pit so often, for example the commentators were saying 18 seconds for a pit stop with Ferrari doing 4 with Fernando, but having a 2 stop strategy albeit slightly slower they would have saved apprx 36 seconds. Perhaps they cannot see the trees for the forest after all there is usually fractions of a second difference in lap times of the top teams what they lose on the swings maybe they could make it up on the roundabout.

David.

Didn't F1 politely suggest to Pirelli that they develop a higher degradation tire this year to spice up the show so to speak. The problem is taking entertainment factor out of drivers hands and relying upon tire manufacturer to create a high degradation tire to infuse excitement. I don't doubt for a minute that Pirelli could make a tire that could handle the down force. That is just not what F1 wanted. Hence we get F1 racing at 9/10s or maybe 8/10s parade laps. Who wants that?

Without doubt Pirelli could produce any tyre required by the FIA or the manufacturers but the problem is whatever regs are in place there is always some fault that after awhile produces a procession.

If there were stops for fuel and tyres it would still mean the same few teams winning and subsequently fewer teams lower down being in a financial position to maintain a team and putting a limit on how much cash can be spent would make for all cars being pretty much the same but I'm sure there are posters on here that may have some good ideas to improve things so let's hear some suggestions although last years racing was entertaining.

David.

The competitive financial aspect is no neophyte challenge experienced in racing and it appears at all levels, yet at other levels racing still tends to be 10/10s and more invidualized. Racing should be less about constructors/manufacturer and more about driver, excitment, talent and that wonderful racer ego. Even spec classess from Spec Miata, Spec Ford to simple various 911 club classes have issues revolving around finance. BIG $$$ can purchase comparable spec parts that provide legal NASA or SCCA advantages. Racing here though does not suffer even though those with the $$$ can still have an advanatge in spec. A .1 second a lap car advantage on a 2 mile course can be huge, but one late brake or missed line, especially in a momentum car, can be very costly. No so in F1. So much time can be made up in F1 through various factors having little to do with driving.

These guys can cruise in fuel save mode or run 10 parade laps to conserve tires to make next stop and still possibly remain in contention for a podium. Rather than pushing the cars, many drivers are instructed to stand down and just finish status quo. The teams employ an endurance race mentaility and I cannot image any driver being happy.

Go to one wet tire and one dry tire. Stop playing around with all the little technology bs to make racing more exciting including push to pass in INDY. The F1s are abolsutely brilliant cars and perhaps too expensive to stuff. Stuffing a car, however, is racing. These brilliant F1 drivers would be more exciting to watch in a simple Formula Mazda Pro race on Mid Ohio where they can block, run three wide and use their skills to actually set themselves apart.

[Mosha]

Imagine FIA running SBK. The bikes would look like what we rode as toddlers.

[Lite Beer]

Am I the only one that watched the whole Grand Prix and was totally confused as to what was going on?

I did not have a clue from start to finish.

No idea who was leading.

No idea who was racing who.

No idea who should be overtaking who.

And no idea why the best drivers in the world are driving slow so they can save their tyres.

A total shambles to me.

I thought it was racing.

[wackysleet]

Am I the only one that watched the whole Grand Prix and was totally confused as to what was going on?

I did not have a clue from start to finish.

No idea who was leading.

No idea who was racing who.

No idea who should be overtaking who.

And no idea why the best drivers in the world are driving slow so they can save their tyres.

A total shambles to me.

I thought it was racing.

Well the first half dozen laps were racing but then shortly after that it became the usual old procession and in fact the worst race this season so far but hopefully in less temperatures at other tracks might improve the spectacle but I would not hold my breath.

David.

[ignis]

Pirelli were asked to bring tyres that lasts 20 laps by the FIA

So on a 66 lap race that is 4 stops or as some managed with care on 3 stops........

Up to a point the tyres on most F1 cars do what the FIA asked..

[wackysleet]

Pirelli were asked to bring tyres that lasts 20 laps by the FIA

So on a 66 lap race that is 4 stops or as some managed with care on 3 stops........

Up to a point the tyres on most F1 cars do what the FIA asked..

I agree that Pirelli are doing exactly as they were requested to do by the FIA and the degradation varies enormously from team to team and even between drivers, just look at Nico and Lewis and a similar situation existed between Lewis and Jenson over tyre wear but at the end of the day apart from the first few laps it was the most boring race/event so far in my mind.

Perhaps Mercedes are running so much downforce that they can qualify at the front but their subsequent finishes are not doing a lot for their reputation and it seems that Michael was not doing as bad last year as most people think.

David.

[wackysleet]

The competitive financial aspect is no neophyte challenge experienced in racing and it appears at all levels, yet at other levels racing still tends to be 10/10s and more invidualized. Racing should be less about constructors/manufacturer and more about driver, excitment, talent and that wonderful racer ego. Even spec classess from Spec Miata, Spec Ford to simple various 911 club classes have issues revolving around finance. BIG $$$ can purchase comparable spec parts that provide legal NASA or SCCA advantages. Racing here though does not suffer even though those with the $$$ can still have an advanatge in spec. A .1 second a lap car advantage on a 2 mile course can be huge, but one late brake or missed line, especially in a momentum car, can be very costly. No so in F1. So much time can be made up in F1 through various factors having little to do with driving.

These guys can cruise in fuel save mode or run 10 parade laps to conserve tires to make next stop and still possibly remain in contention for a podium. Rather than pushing the cars, many drivers are instructed to stand down and just finish status quo. The teams employ an endurance race mentaility and I cannot image any driver being happy.

Go to one wet tire and one dry tire. Stop playing around with all the little technology bs to make racing more exciting including push to pass in INDY. The F1s are abolsutely brilliant cars and perhaps too expensive to stuff. Stuffing a car, however, is racing. These brilliant F1 drivers would be more exciting to watch in a simple Formula Mazda Pro race on Mid Ohio where they can block, run three wide and use their skills to actually set themselves apart.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well we all have the choice as to what we watch or enjoy but for me F1 is the best, it was not always the often boring spectacle it has/is becoming but there needs to be other legislation that will work for competative racing and tyres are only one aspect of the problem, after all, Lotus can manage their tyres far better than Mercedes should they be penalised for that

One make racing does nothing for me as they are too evenly matched and are again processional. {in my opinion} I do watch English saloon car and enjoy that racing, we had that other Formula A1 or whatever it was called, here today gone the next.

David

Edited May 14, 2013 by wackysleet

[ignis]

Problem is it is the drivers, there called racing drivers and have a license to prove it........... do they know cruise mode ? we have already seen some do not understand hold station.. Racing drivers race to the end.. the whole idea is to race and be 1st over the line.

Yes I do watch English saloon car and enjoy that racing, cannot remember anyone being asked to cruise or hold station, also watch Super V8 racing both cars and pickups, cannot remember any driver being asked to cruise or hold station

one many times Motor GP rider, his test's in F1 was. did not like to be constantly told what to do........ now a day in F1 we only have one driver that drives, and tells anyone that interferes ' I Know what I am dong'

[wackysleet]

Problem is it is the drivers, there called racing drivers and have a license to prove it........... do they know cruise mode ? we have already seen some do not understand hold station.. Racing drivers race to the end.. the whole idea is to race and be 1st over the line.

Yes I do watch English saloon car and enjoy that racing, cannot remember anyone being asked to cruise or hold station, also watch Super V8 racing both cars and pickups, cannot remember any driver being asked to cruise or hold station

one many times Motor GP rider, his test's in F1 was. did not like to be constantly told what to do........ now a day in F1 we only have one driver that drives, and tells anyone that interferes ' I Know what I am dong'

I think with Kimi is that he can take it or leave it, well that's the impression I get and he does not appear to subscribe to team orders although he has not exactly been chased down by his team mate and the Lotus does seem to cope with the tyres better.

Personally I do not think that team orders will disappear as much as I would love to see all out racing with another example of Perez being told to hold station, not that there was anything other than personal satisfaction to be gained by overtaking or attempting to pass Jenson, the team got the maximum points that they could.

What surprises me is that if the drivers are not performing to the level expected of them then they can find themselves out the door but what about the Maclaren designers, this year they have gone backwards but how many heads have rolled?.

David.

[wackysleet]

I see that Maclaren have signed up with Honda as their engine suppliers which should add another maker to the equasion so we will see how things go although the Merc engine has performed very well but would love to know why they changed.

David.

[Mosha]

I think it was on the cards when Mercedes went off an formed their own team. IIRC McLaren had a contract with Mercedes to keep supplying them until the end of the current season.

[Mosha]

One thing I never want to hear again is "I can't drive any slower."

[Mosha]

Just in case you haven't ventured into the world news section

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/639621-formula-one-mogul-bernie-ecclestone-facing-bribery-charges/

[b19bry]

Am I the only one that watched the whole Grand Prix and was totally confused as to what was going on?

I did not have a clue from start to finish.

No idea who was leading.

No idea who was racing who.

No idea who should be overtaking who.

And no idea why the best drivers in the world are driving slow so they can save their tyres.

A total shambles to me.

I thought it was racing.

Really, how hard can it be, the positions are constantly presented on the ticker at the bottom of the screen.

I watched in a bar without the benefit of any sound or commentary and was able to follow who was leading / challenging for the leading positions throughout the race.

As far as I could see the best drivers in the world weren't driving that slow, their engineers had sorted their cars to help them run more effectively on the tyres.

[b19bry]

I see that Maclaren have signed up with Honda as their engine suppliers which should add another maker to the equasion so we will see how things go although the Merc engine has performed very well but would love to know why they changed.

David.

Well Mclaren are no longer the 'works' team as they were before Mercedes entered the series as a full team. But probably more significant is the fact that In 2014, the championship will see the introduction of a revised engine formula, in which the 2.4 litre V8 engine configuration—previously used between 2006 and 2013—will be replaced with a new formula specifying a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 engine that incorporates an energy recovery system into its build.

Honda was a super strong engine under the previous Turbo regulations and they are very much into green technology. I'd say Mclaren have made a smart move before any other team snapped Honda up.

[b19bry]

One thing I never want to hear again is "I can't drive any slower."

Well you better hope the Mercedes Engineers get on top of the tyre situation then !

Personally I think the current situation is a vast improvement on what we had for much of the 2000's when the race finishing line-up was pretty much decided on Saturday afternoon. I think Coulthard put's a balanced perspective on the Spanish race here :

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/191203/1/coulthard_insists_barcelona_not_a_disaster.html

[wackysleet]

I see that Maclaren have signed up with Honda as their engine suppliers which should add another maker to the equasion so we will see how things go although the Merc engine has performed very well but would love to know why they changed.

David.

Well Mclaren are no longer the 'works' team as they were before Mercedes entered the series as a full team. But probably more significant is the fact that In 2014, the championship will see the introduction of a revised engine formula, in which the 2.4 litre V8 engine configuration—previously used between 2006 and 2013—will be replaced with a new formula specifying a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 engine that incorporates an energy recovery system into its build.

Honda was a super strong engine under the previous Turbo regulations and they are very much into green technology. I'd say Mclaren have made a smart move before any other team snapped Honda up.

b19bry.

Yes mate I understand the new regs but Honda while previously being a force to be recond with have been out of the game awhile now and Merc does seem to have a very good engine at the moment and if I had to put money on it then I think initially they will be stronger than honda with their 1600cc motor but it will be interesting to see.

David.

[b19bry]

I see that Maclaren have signed up with Honda as their engine suppliers which should add another maker to the equasion so we will see how things go although the Merc engine has performed very well but would love to know why they changed.

David.

Well Mclaren are no longer the 'works' team as they were before Mercedes entered the series as a full team. But probably more significant is the fact that In 2014, the championship will see the introduction of a revised engine formula, in which the 2.4 litre V8 engine configuration—previously used between 2006 and 2013—will be replaced with a new formula specifying a 1.6 litre turbocharged V6 engine that incorporates an energy recovery system into its build.

Honda was a super strong engine under the previous Turbo regulations and they are very much into green technology. I'd say Mclaren have made a smart move before any other team snapped Honda up.

b19bry.

Yes mate I understand the new regs but Honda while previously being a force to be recond with have been out of the game awhile now and Merc does seem to have a very good engine at the moment and if I had to put money on it then I think initially they will be stronger than honda with their 1600cc motor but it will be interesting to see.

David.

David,

Engine-wise Honda have always been a force to be reckoned with in F1 especially with turbo engines (more so than Mercedes who have to start from scratch on a new unit too). They're already developing their unit so I think it's a foregone conclusion it will be one of the frontrunners in terms of power.