Back Home From Holiday In Thailand

[peter991]

I was tossing up whether to post this in the Health or Gay forums - but I think this is the best place to post - so here goes:

Background: I have been in a LTR with my Thai bf for the past 18 months. He is 22 and I am 52. It's a LTR and a LDR (Long Distance Relationship). Every 6 months, I travel from Australia to his village in Issan so we can spend 3 weeks to a month together. We have built a house and furnished it together.

Now: After the six month build up, I arrived in Thailand on 08 February. Flew from BKK to Khon Kaen and he met me at the Airport. We travelled by taxi to his village. Met his parents again - they are always happy to meet me.

This time there seemed to be a distinct lack of warmth from him. He wanted to spend time with his Thai friends rather than just with me. I realise Thai people are very sociable - but I felt left out. Even when I did join in - I felt like an outsider. Even our body clocks seemed out of sync. When I wanted to go out - he wanted to sleep.

Overall - I was a bit disappointed with my holiday - but we left on friendly terms. In January this year he was really anxious to visit Australia - and we discussed getting him a 3 month or 6 month Tourist Visa. Now he doesn't seem as keen.

He knows that I plan to retire to Thailand early next year - but the passion seems to be waning (on his part). We seem like an old married couple, from the outside. Now I am back home in Australia, I am cherishing the time we spent together - but I am feeling depressed: not knowing where our relationship is going or if it is worth continuing.

Suggestions / comments welcome.

Peter

[Ijustwannateach]

Hmmmm..... what to say?

It seems a little soon for a relationship to be fizzling out like this. That said, it also seems a little soon for you to have bought him a house. It also seems pretty soon for you to be talking about taking him to Australia.

In short, the whole thing seems, well, rushed.

I think it is a pretty bad idea for you to be lavishing all this money on someone you've known barely over a year and only from a few vacation visits. I would guess that your initial meeting with this person was not at his village in Isaan, either.....

"Steven"

[LindsayBKK]

Sounds 2 me like the Family are expecting you to take him to Australia to give them "Face" as the Thais say. I live here with my Thai bf & he comments about moving to Australia and I want to stay here. I know that when we go to Australia he is full of energy he is like a different person, but here he comes home from work and tells me all the crazy things that happened at work and sigh's alot. Have you taken him to Australia even once? Don't make him feel like you are using him. My guess. Hope I have helped. I have lots of experience on this subject. I have had 2 LTR's 20 years & current 6 Years. And they say Gay relationships never last

[ChrisP]

I have a distinct feeling that there may be something going on that he's not telling you. (Thai's are REALY good at skirting difficult issues and trying to be nice...) Also (whatever "it" is) it may involve loss of "face" for him.. especially if you've created a "home" together...

You have to try and get him to voice what's going on.. IF you can. Are you sure he's been in the village the whole time...? Does he miss the bigger city..? Is he bored...? Tough.. without sounding like a cop questioning a suspect....

If it's the worst, and he wants out of the relationship.. he still may not be able to voice that.. You will have to be the one to "put it on the table" (gently and nicely) and see if he takes it...

It's very hard for them to hold onto a LDR for 6 months at a time.... My bf can barely stand 6 weeks apart..

Good luck Peter...

ChrisP

[peter991]

Thanks for all your comments.

IJWT: I have a lot of respect for you and your comments, having read most of your posts. In hindsight, perhaps I have rushed things. Yes - I met him in a bar. He hasn't worked in a Bar since we started our relationship. This is something I have verified. He used to do the 'triangle' of working in the bar, needed a break - then go and live with his sister and her girlfriend in their room in BKK, then when that got too much - move back home to his parents' place in Issan. That was boring for him - so he went back to the Bar. I have broken that 'triangle' - now he lives in our house, which he is very proud of.

Lindsay: I don't think his family expect him to go to Australia. They have lots of 'face' by me building the house for him and looking after him. His parents knew he was working in a Bar - and they are happy he doesn't have to do that any more. If anything, I think his parents are concerned that he would 'forget' about them if he went to Australia.

Chris: I like to think that my bf and I have good communication skills - even by Thai standards. If something happens that either of us want to discuss, my bf tells me that he wants to 'clear' - which is basically 'clearing the air.' This happened a couple of times during my last visit. I know he has been in the Village for the past 6 months as when we phone each other, he always puts his Mamma and Pappa on the phone to talk with me. Not that they speak more than a couple of words of English - but I know it's them and they are too old to go outside the village - so he certainly isn't heading back to the bright lights of Pattaya or BKK. He tells me he 'loves me forever,' so I will just have to see what happens over the next couple of weeks. Yes - it's very hard for both of us to be in a LDR.

I feel better having you guys to share my feelings with. Thanks.

Peter

[toptuan]

Peter, what does your b/f do back in his Isan village? Is he employed? This factor could have a significant bearing on his attitude towards you.

[Ijustwannateach]

^an excellent point. "Idle hands do the devil's work," as they say. If he has nothing to do out there in the village, even if his financial concerns are satisfied it might not be enough. Questions to ask might include:

1. Did he *like* the big city and/or working in a bar?

2. Is he inherently attracted to farang as some Thai are (in other words, seeing you just a few times a year is not really getting enough for someone his age, and there are no other candidate farang near him)?

3. Is he out to his friends (i.e., is he embarrassed when you visit)?

4. What needs do you both continue to fulfill for each other that make continuing a relationship worthwhile?

It's hard to give any firm answers without actually knowing the two of you.

Some psychologists say that much depression is a kind of anger turned inwards. If your friend is not fulfilling your needs or expectations despite your past kindness to him, I'm afraid it seems unlikely that continuing or increasing your generosity will have much effect. Since he already represents a considerable investment for you, which will be lost if either of you chooses to break up, I can see how this might be upsetting.

I hope it was just a fluke or something. Good luck on your next trip- but you might need to consider Chris' advice above and prepare yourself emotionally for the worst case. Always more fish in the ocean, though...

"Steven"

[peter991]

Toptuan: It's only a small out of the way village with a population of around 100 people and very little work available. Last year he was afraid that he would end up in the Army - but his small size kept him out. The local hospital is a large employer - but he doesn't like it (too many ghosts and sick people). He wants to join the Police force - so I met with a local police officer who speaks reasonable English and we discussed the matter. There is also the large fishing net factory about 10 minutes away. He seems to spend his days sleeping and watching TV and playing DVD karaeoke. And - he seems quite happy doing so.

I am trying to encourange him to find work in the village. He suggested getting a job in a Bangkok factory - where had worked before - silk screening T shirts. I tried to explain that by the time he found a room and paid rent - most of his income would be swallowed up. I told him that he lived in the house rent free in the village and had his friends and family nearby.

IJWT: Initially he worked in a couple of Bangkok and Pattaya bars. While he liked the money and the things he could buy with it, he decided that he didn't want to 'go with any more farangs,' apart from me. Previous visits to Thailand and reading of the TV forums convinced me that there was a 99% chance he was not telling the truth. I thought I would just be one of his many customers - but we talked and he agreed to leave working in bars for good. I have verified this. He is faithful to me - in that he doesn't go with any other farang - but he does have a couple of village boys his age - as 'very good friends.' He is never embarrassed when I visit - in fact he enjoys showing me off. I have gone beyond 'trophy' stage and I am happy to join in activities with his friends (usually a couple of drinks on the front porch or a trip to the local kareoke club.

What do we both want with the future? Hard to say. I have just completed a TEFL course in Australia and the local high school has offered me a position paying around 10,000 baht a month. I need another 12 months before I can afford to retire to Thailand permanently. He knows that. What does he want? He says he just wants me with him forever.

Peter

[ProThaiExpat]

Having had LTRs with many boys/men in their early twenties, I am now of the mind that riding their "rollercoaster" is just not for me at my advanced age.

If you acertain what his "lifestyle" was like in BKK and Pattaya, I believe you will find it was much different and a lot "faster" than in his village that he probably "fled" from.

Clearly he would be conflicted between "home and hearth" and a settled relationship with "his falang" all face raising but with the downside of boredom in a small village with nothing "going on".

I just can't imagine any early twenty year old being happy "settled down" without years of "kicking up his heels". Yes, he will try hard to be everything his current position calls for but his youth and energy surely calls for more "bright lights".

Perhaps he has "married" too young, which we see as the reason for so many divorces.

My Thai, from a small village in Issan, occasionally longs to return, but when he does, his stay is shortlived as he no longer enjoys the "drama" and demands of his family. Notwithstanding that, he constantly is driven by a need to buy land, improve houses and otherwise raise his "face" in his village. Conflicted for sure.

[ChrisP]

I also have to agree with PTExpat's comments.. I think he's BORED.. but won't admit it because of loss of face...

Peter, imagine you back at 22, doing nothing all day but sleeping and watching TV and karaoke/games.. How would you feel..?

My bf (also 22) started his crazy life much young.. had his flings, one-night-stands etc.. He was also born and bred in BKK.. and still likes it now.. Even though says he's ready to settle down with me and 2 dogs and a house, he still won't leave the "bright lights" and energy of BKK..

He doesn't actually USE it.. (doesn't like going to bars, clubs etc. ) but it's the pace of the city-life he obviously likes.

ChrisP

[toptuan]

IJWT and ChrisP took some of the words right out of my mouth. The other words, however, are about self-respect of your b/f. A person without some kind of gainful employment or productive activity (and I believe this works across cultures) begins to lose respect for himself. This often translates into an eventual loss of respect for other people, even toward the person who may be supporting him. I believe his current activities which you describe (sleeping, TV, VDO karaoke, etc.) will eventually get old and may be destructive to his self-worth, self-respect and atttitude toward others.

It's possible his "coldness" toward you might be a growing sypmtom of what I described. If so, I admit it's a very strange response ("biting the hand that feeds you") but not uncommon. You see it happen with rich kids all the time. Many of them turning to drugs or theft to put some "spice" into their boring lives. Some of these "indulged" kids who shoulder little responsibiilty even turn against their parents.

I'm not reading from a human psychology book here, just from the experience of having gone through a couple of similar circumstances. I agree, you're between a rock and a hard place. Not much to do in a village of 100, and you certainly don't want him back in the Bangkok bars.

I hope I'm not being too harsh, but I think his response about not wanting to work in a hospital (because of "ghosts and sick people") is a lazy response. Tens of thousands of Thai health workers bite the bullet and do it. He needs to know that ANY kind of (legal) work is more respectable and psychologically healthy than the life of a sluggard. Of course, it's going to be hard to communicate this long-distance. As you are able, I would continue to press him to look beyond his objections about the hospital and pursue a job there, or the fish net factory, or with the police force.

Time is of essence, and I hope you can get there soon, or he can get more involved in a productive life style meanwhile. By the way, if you retire or teach English, and if he remains content to stay home with the TV, sleeping, etc.; what are your long-range plans with him? Same? Travel? Start a rice patch?

If your plans are simple (live in the village with perhaps only travel within Thailand) I would say that 10,000 Baht a month would more than cover the basic needs for the both of you, especially with a home already built and provided for. I just bet most of the folks in that village are living on 7,000 baht or less per month, even with more than one wage-earner in the family.

It's a tough situation and there are many limitations/constraints you are working with. Good luck to the both of you! Stay strong!

Edited March 4, 2006 by toptuan

[sjaak327]

peter991, I would really urge him to get employment. I believe spending your days sleeping and watching television is not a normal way to live. And I also believe that it will be only a matter of time before your relationship with him will get worse. It must be really boring for him to spend his days at this little village with nothing on his hands.

I'm in a LDR with a guy aged 26 and met him at his work in a restaurant. He is cooking, and last time he quit his job because he couldn't get time off from work to see me during my 4 weeks visit. At first I was quite angry, I said why do you quit your job, we can see each other when you don't have to work, but he did it anyway. I rent an appartment in Bangkok, he lives there year round. So he doesn't have to pay rent. But it is quite clear to him that beyond paying for rent, he has to work to live and make ends meet.

I'm also glad that he likes to work, he found new work, which is paying him quite good money.

Bottom line here is that work is a healthy normal way to live, also him earning money would give him some self respect, and will also enable you to feel better, because he is not merely waiting for you to give him money, but instead earning his own.

[Krub]

Hi,

I second the idea of him working.

My relationship got much stronger and steady when we first decided that a hairdresser course in a Bangkok school would help keeping busy and eventually lead to a job.

It took time, money and hard work to find the right school, accomodation in Bangkok and to commute to the school. I thought it might no work out but the course was completed.

This led us to a choice of wether to stay in Bangkok and start work in a salon as an employee or to start our own salon up-country.

We decided on the up-country solution and we build a small shop/living area on the then parent's land. The chanote has since been changed and a 30 years lease registerred in my name.

As I am not able to spend much time in Thailand each time I visit (5-6 times a year) this set-up gives decent accomodation and a purpose to be in the smal village. Farang house with hair salon is quite a novelty and a hit (very locally).

The 'business' side of the expenses and the daily living cost is managed within the business's accounts. Any extras like big items (furniture, long distance transportation, telephone cost, insurance, etc) is supported by me. I must add that the land lease contract was signed and registerred without me paying one baht.

My support is thus a kind of rental fee for the land.

We purposely deciided to build the shop/cottage smal enough so that no family would find it easy to start movong in until I do permenantly.

The land at the back of the shop is big enough for building a house at a later stage.

LTR LDR is not easy, needs a lot of time and understanding maybe more so than a 'normal' relationship where you meet each other on a daily basis.

Our age difference although big is not as big as yours (20 years)

From what I know of what you are describing, it really seems that he needs to find a purpose apart from waiting for you to turn up and stay permantly.

It would be a great thing if you could arrange for a long stay for him in Australia as I understand you need to be there to save up.

It is good that you will be able to work in the village school, you might want to make sure you have the proper paper work as it seems to be quite dificult to obtain the right visa/permits to work on a 'low' salary and with a retirement visa you are not allowed to work but this is another subject

The best of luck to you both

Edited March 5, 2006 by Krub

[orchis]

Krub's solution is a good one; you have to work both to create content for your relationship as well as for his empty days. Watching tv all day is usually the occupation of the ill or the depressed.

Also at 22 a guy is at the beginning of his adult life while at 52 you are nearing the end of your professional life. What will happen if you both live in the house doing nothing active? He's giving you warning signs, use them.

[peter991]

Thanks to everybody who has taken the time to read this thread and to those who have advanced solutions. The common point seems to be finding work for my Thai bf.

As I see it - there's three options. Either he finds a job in his village (or nearby) or starts his own home-based business. Alternatively, he does more schooling.

The first is probably easier, as it doesn't take any capital. The next is more difficult as he isn't qualified to do anything. His level of reading, writing and speaking English is very good. I am not aware of any schools with off-campus studies, but maybe that's another option.

He certainly isn't ill or depressed - but I agree that he will become bored before long if he just sleeps in and watches TV. For now it's a novelty - which must wear off soon.

The family doesn't own any land, so starting a home-based business could be a tricky one. Looks like I will try and convince him to find a job. He's happy to work - just needs a bit of motivation, I guess.

Peter

[Guest endure]

Whoever it was that expunged the negativity - thank you

[toptuan]

On the school option, would he be willing to attend a university or college during the week and return home on weekends? If getting a job (or home-based business) is difficult to come by, I think schooling is a GREAT option. I'm thinking that with his excellent English skills, quite a few doors would be open to him, academically. Here's the advantages as I see it...

• He's using his time productively plus increasing his marketability in the workplace.
  

• You increase his chances for personal fulfillment as he realizes his potential.
  

• Most importantly, you help set him up for self-sufficiency should you depart this earthly sphere before he does (quite likely).
  

Schooling Option -- Monthly Costs in Isaan:

• Tuition: about 2,500Baht a month (10,000 baht per semester, 4 months) in a large university.
  

• Accommodations: Off-campus dormitories 1,500-2,000; on-campus 500-1000 Baht
  

• Food: another 1,500 for food (that's eating quite well)
  

• Misc: Maybe another 1,000 for transportation, toiletries, etc.
  

Just some more data to throw into the decision-making mix.

Edited March 8, 2006 by toptuan

[peter991]

Thanks for those figures, Toptuan. I read recently that Australia and Thailand now have reciprocal attangements whereby university educated guys and girls aged 18 to 30 years can apply for Working Holiday Visas in each other's country.

Instead of my Thai partner having to 'jump through hoops' to get a 3 or 6 month Tourist Visa to visit Australia (and not be able to work here ... which he wants to do), he would be eligible to at least apply for a working holiday visa, because of his age and the fact that he would be attending university.

I will put the idea to him shortly. BTW - I am feeling less depressed and more positive myself now.

Thanks again.

Peter

Edited March 8, 2006 by peter991

[Ijustwannateach]

Just a few practical questions...

1. Have you verified that the guy has really officially finished high school? If not, you may need to have him do an equivalency (I have some info about this if you're interested).

2. Is the guy really a good student candidate- does he show any interest or vocation in further study of some kind?

3. Assuming your plan is to have him study in Australia, does he have any hope of passing the English requirements (TOEFL, etc.) or will he need additional years of English study? Remember that he will need to be reading in English at a *college level*.... not to mention that he may have to take other standardised tests.

4. Do you live in the big city in Australia? If not, isn't there some risk that living in a small town in Australia without anyone to speak Thai or do karaoke with might also be a bit daunting?

However, this all still seems to be a bit rushed, to me. I would wait, once again, to see how things go once you're back in Thailand again. If he is not bowing down to kiss your feet in thanks for giving him a house and whatever else (as he should be doing), then I would hesitate before rushing to give him more.

"Steven"

[peter991]

Thanks for your thoughts Steven. I will definitely check further with him to see what the best options are. As far as I know, he never finished high school.

Peter

[Scott]

No two relationships are the same and certainly no two people. If I were you I would be a little concerned, but not depressed. Distance doesn't make the heart grow fonder, people tend to grow apart. The passionate part of a relationship ends at different times, so he may be cooling down a little. Since you are not a part of his every day life, he has to develop a life without you. When you come back, you are 'intruding' on that life--that doesn't mean he doesn't love you or care about you.

Give yourself and the relationship time. Try not to be too dependent on him and try to have unrealistic expectations of your relationship.

I've been with my partner here for about 15 years and things cooled off quite quickly after we were together (on both parts). We are deeply in love, but have different interests which we pursure and talk about at home. We have different friends (and mutual friends), which adds a lot of spice and color. We always sleep together and just knowing he's there is the warmest feeling I know.

Keep up your spirits.