Thailand's Prostitution Image Is Embarrassing

[Roadman]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

[deesamui]

HI roadman, I dont know one single guy, including me, who is coming to los, who is not looking and after looking purchasing the horizontal and/or the vertical,and for sure more than once!! whats your fav ?, no offense ;-}

[otherstuff1957]

to be fair if the Thai men were not so keen in selling their women, then this problem would be no more then say in England. When a foreigner gets into a taxi in London, the driver does not ask him 'do you want lady boom boom'?

Unless its a rich Arab!

Arabs are generally muslim so they would not be sex tourists or frequent bars

A Saudi Arabian friend took me to the Grace Hotel a few times... Those Muslims party quite hard when they are out of prison on vacation outside of the Middle East.

[rojack45]

poorly researched, really.

This kind of business comes in many flavors, more dangerous than presented here.

Until recently 95%(maybe still that high) of the girls and boys were fed drugs and/or involved in trading, big and small through their organized networking. Sometime as statists to fill a space with friends when a trade is coming, sometime as messengers, sometimes as mules and and and and ... most of the Streetwise were and aren't aware of what's going on. They just follow the call of their superiors.

This is going to become explosive and probably on purpose. Mexico would be a safer option than here then.

Here are as many female and male pimps under the protection of (cough)... and (cough cough) ... so far a little to the farang scene

It gets even worse when you dig into the local scene. Money laundering is a huge issue, not just the drugs alone. After a recent few stern warnings the drug issue calmed down just to regroup again. Some escape(d) to the farang scene.

Most of these girls and boys are coming from the local scene, some change, others not.

There was a funny case years ago in Austria. The minister of defense and his arm trader friends built a huge luxury brothel, something like you see here in Ratchada. People were not stupid and soon after that it was turned int a Alco Rehab center and the minister committed suicide. 555 ...

Copy/paste that Thailand. The Way to go.

Rehab centers are most needed here for to combat drugs and alcohol AND ... All here to use. What are you waiting for?

No, you can't wipe it out completely, but reduce it to become bearable.

What the f&*&K are you talking about. Talk about poorly researched..... Have you ever even talked to a bar girl/massage girl here? Or escorts from any part of the world?

Edited March 15, 2013 by metisdead
: 30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[chiangmaikelly]

poorly researched, really.

This kind of business comes in many flavors, more dangerous than presented here.

Until recently 95%(maybe still that high) of the girls and boys were fed drugs and/or involved in trading, big and small through their organized networking. Sometime as statists to fill a space with friends when a trade is coming, sometime as messengers, sometimes as mules and and and and ... most of the Streetwise were and aren't aware of what's going on. They just follow the call of their superiors.

This is going to become explosive and probably on purpose. Mexico would be a safer option than here then.

Here are as many female and male pimps under the protection of (cough)... and (cough cough) ... so far a little to the farang scene

It gets even worse when you dig into the local scene. Money laundering is a huge issue, not just the drugs alone. After a recent few stern warnings the drug issue calmed down just to regroup again. Some escape(d) to the farang scene.

Most of these girls and boys are coming from the local scene, some change, others not.

There was a funny case years ago in Austria. The minister of defense and his arm trader friends built a huge luxury brothel, something like you see here in Ratchada. People were not stupid and soon after that it was turned int a Alco Rehab center and the minister committed suicide. 555 ...

Copy/paste that Thailand. The Way to go.

Rehab centers are most needed here for to combat drugs and alcohol AND ... All here to use. What are you waiting for?

No, you can't wipe it out completely, but reduce it to become bearable.

What the f&*&K are you talking about. Talk about poorly researched..... Have you ever even talked to a bar girl/massage girl here? Or escorts from any part of the world?

Where did that quote come from?

[chooka]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

[chiangmaikelly]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Why would you think we care to know? No one believes you anyway. Come on guys how many people believe Chooka?

[Pimay1]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Why would you think we care to know? No one believes you anyway. Come on guys how many people believe Chooka?

I suppose it is possible. There are people in this world that are celibate.

[A_Traveller]

Perhaps she was just the cashier?

Sorry Chooka couldn't resist

Edited March 15, 2013 by A_Traveller

[Bagwan]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

You've never served at sea for any length of time then? For Navy men contracting an STD was an occupational hazard. Some didn't consider themselves real sailors until they'd experienced the jab in the bum and a bottle of Potassium Citrate. The worst punishment was stoppage of the daily tot until cleared by the M.O.

[canman]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Why would you think we care to know? No one believes you anyway. Come on guys how many people believe Chooka?

Well he is a saints supporter and they are usually wan*ers so it could be true.

Just joking Chooka

[Bagwan]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

So you've never served at sea for any length of time then? Catching a STD was considered one of the occupational hazards to a navy man. Many didn't consider themselves real sailors until they had experienced a jab in the bum and twice daily doses of Potassium Citrate. I'm not condoning availing oneself of the services of a prostitute but if you've been stuck in the harbour at Port Stanley for two weeks then some of the sheep look very attractive. Same same at Scapa Flow.

I'm now waiting for a poster to proclaim that he has never, ever, watched or looked at porn.

[diddums]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Why would you think we care to know? No one believes you anyway. Come on guys how many people believe Chooka?

If I said I believe him my nose would grow longer..

[chooka]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Why would you think we care to know? No one believes you anyway. Come on guys how many people believe Chooka?

Who cares if anyone believes me When you have to run from your wife and beg for a break a prostitute is the last thing on your mind No it is true never used one and not or ever have been your sex tourist. Personally the thought of stirring the porrige in a well used vat actually gives me a softy. Met my wife in Melbourne and she keeps me more than satisfied.

[chooka]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

So you've never served at sea for any length of time then? Catching a STD was considered one of the occupational hazards to a navy man. Many didn't consider themselves real sailors until they had experienced a jab in the bum and twice daily doses of Potassium Citrate. I'm not condoning availing oneself of the services of a prostitute but if you've been stuck in the harbour at Port Stanley for two weeks then some of the sheep look very attractive. Same same at Scapa Flow.

I'm now waiting for a poster to proclaim that he has never, ever, watched or looked at porn.

Never been to sea but yes watched a little porn

[IAMSOBAD]

Maybe we should PAY THAI SEX WORKERS to rent jetskis and taxis and tuktuks and then the Thai Government could become embarrassed and stop ALL THOSE SCAMS.

The only things illegal here are when Farangs are made to pay by con artists for things Thais get away with on a routine basis.

[Pimay1]

Quotes got me again.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

So you've never served at sea for any length of time then? Catching a STD was considered one of the occupational hazards to a navy man. Many didn't consider themselves real sailors until they had experienced a jab in the bum and twice daily doses of Potassium Citrate. I'm not condoning availing oneself of the services of a prostitute but if you've been stuck in the harbour at Port Stanley for two weeks then some of the sheep look very attractive. Same same at Scapa Flow.

I'm now waiting for a poster to proclaim that he has never, ever, watched or looked at porn.

Never been to sea but yes watched a little porn

Would you guys/girls believe in my 19 years here I never used the services of a prostitute, never paid a bribe (there was one guy who posted this), never was cheated, never watched porn, never got drunk and stayed at the foot of the cross every day? No didn't think so. But we can all believe in fairy tales can't we?

[Pimay1]

The most embarrassing aspect of this whole topic is the blatant hypocrisy.

A lot of western men come to Thailand and enter into cash transactions with females who we refer to as prostitutes. These men often enter into such transactions with numerous women while in the country. The women also enter into numerous transaction with men. Of course, the cash transactions primarily involve sexual acts.

Now, why is it that the females involved in these transactions are commonly viewed in such a bad light and referred to by so many highly pejorative terms, such as hooker, whore, etc., while the men involved in these transactions generally do not suffer the same poor treatment by society?

In terms of scruples or principles or morals, can we possibly consider the men who pay for sex any less culpable than the women who accept money for sex? To be reasonable and honest, we cannot condemn the women any more than the men.

To do so is absolutely hypocritical bs.

Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them.

I can honestly say I have never used the services of a prostitute. Haven't had the need for it.

Me either. Does the maid count?

[BradinAsia]

@Roadman

"Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them."

You can use as many derogatory terms as you like, but to avoid being a blatant, balled-faced hypocrite you'll need to use equally nasty terms for the men (especially foreign tourists) who are equally culpable (it takes two to tango, baby) in this business. Your comment that a few western men come here and do not participate in this activity is totally irrelevant to to the topic at hand.

The point is -- the absolutely hypocrisy of bashing the hookers and pretending that the "johns" are any less culpable (or despicable) in this business.

Edited March 15, 2013 by BradinAsia

[ginjag]

@Roadman

"Or for christs sake. They are hookers, prostitutes or what ever you want to call them. Some western men come to Thailand and don't hang out at whore houses or whatever you want to call them. And by the same token you will find that some of these guys are not hanging out with the guys that hang out at whore houses or what ever you may wish to call them."

You can use as many derogatory terms as you like, but to avoid being a blatant, balled-faced hypocrite you'll need to use equally nasty terms for the men (especially foreign tourists) who are equally culpable (it takes two to tango, baby) in this business. Your comment that a few western men come here and do not participate in this activity is totally irrelevant to to the topic at hand.

The point is -- the absolutely hypocrisy of bashing the hookers and pretending that the "johns" are any less culpable (or despicable) in this business.

There are many living here that are not sex pats, but being here we have all been tarred with the same brush.

Just to add a friend of mine is a hotel receptionist in a fine hotel in Pattaya, when up country she is asked where she works-she tells them Chonburi, embarrassed to speak of Pattaya, so the same thing, I know many people visiting Thailand that when they go back home the tell all that they went on an asia tour.

[jamhar]

Prostitution is rife in every nook and cranny in Thailand.

Doesn't embarrass Thai men one iota.

Hmm I need to get out and find me some nooks and crannies

[Lammbock]

Never change a running system

[RadKiter]

Little known fact, prostitution has been completely eradicated in the west. Its not like it's legal in Australia, Germany, Amsterdam, or technically legal in Canada & the UK. In the good moral US of A, its not like walking the strip in Vegas involves having to navigate around hundreds of men handing out "escort cards" or that every city of reasonable size has free magazines/newspapers that advertise "escorts" or offers "happy ending" massage parlors.

Even in Asia, you can't find "beer bars" outside Thailand. Such things don't exist in Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, or the Philippines.

Nope, Thailand and the Dominican Republic are the last places where prostitution is still available.

You're either not very observant or completely deluded.

[chiangmaikelly]

Little known fact, prostitution has been completely eradicated in the west. Its not like it's legal in Australia, Germany, Amsterdam, or technically legal in Canada & the UK. In the good moral US of A, its not like walking the strip in Vegas involves having to navigate around hundreds of men handing out "escort cards" or that every city of reasonable size has free magazines/newspapers that advertise "escorts" or offers "happy ending" massage parlors.

Even in Asia, you can't find "beer bars" outside Thailand. Such things don't exist in Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambodia, or the Philippines.

Nope, Thailand and the Dominican Republic are the last places where prostitution is still available.

You're either not very observant or completely deluded.

There is the possibility satirical humor was the motivation.

[Somtamnication]

What is more embarrassing is that politicians do not know that prostitution exists, particularly Nana Soi 4, 2 patpongs, soi cowboy, Suk soi 22, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. These areas are all churches, apparently.

[chiangmaikelly]

What is more embarrassing is that politicians do not know that prostitution exists, particularly Nana Soi 4, 2 patpongs, soi cowboy, Suk soi 22, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. These areas are all churches, apparently.

You can hardly blame them. They don't go to those places. No action. They go to the Thai places you have avoided mentioning, larger, more posh, and accepted by polite Thai society.

[animatic]

There are even some people who are effectively neutered, but I have yet to meet one in Thailand.

[HeavyDrinker]

We all came here for the quiff in whatever capacity....bar Stickman, Chooka and probably the Pope when he last come here....(the dead one not the one what just packed it in)

[Pimay1]

What is more embarrassing is that politicians do not know that prostitution exists, particularly Nana Soi 4, 2 patpongs, soi cowboy, Suk soi 22, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. These areas are all churches, apparently.

You can hardly blame them. They don't go to those places. No action. They go to the Thai places you have avoided mentioning, larger, more posh, and accepted by polite Thai society.

Right you are. When I have an occasion to visit Bangkok I stay at a place on Chokchai 4. Across from the guest house is an elaborate establishment that offers all the finer things in life so to speak. An exclusive membership of Thais only. The place opens at 10am. By 11am the parking lot is full of Benzs and BMWs.

[Tomtomtom69]

This is not just a 'tourist' problem. The Thais seem to ignore the 'domestic' problem on the assumption that foreigners don't know about it. Every city in Thailand has various centres where sex is readily available.

Karaoke clubs, massage entertainment centres, etc. in every city and town in Thailand - catering not to foreigners, but to local Thais of every class.

What Thais may be more concerned about is the reputation that could be gained if foreigners started frequenting places like Ratchada where most of these huge entertainment complexes, up till now geared to service mainly Thai businessmen, and owned by prominent Thai businessmen, police, army and dare I say possibly people related to the government.

You think Thailand's reputation is going to get worse if foreigners start going to Rachada? It would just sink into the mire even further. Until they do something to change the reputation, they are going to have to put up with the periodic international sniggers. I suggest they grow some thicker skin.

Ironically, if people outside Thailand actually realised how enormous this industry actually is in Thailand, it would probably cause more head scratching and bemusement and pity, than ridicule. Most think it is limited to supplying foreigners, but in reality it is 10 times larger.

Why aren't foreigners going to Ratchada? I thought they were...last time I checked, Ratchada was located right smack bang in the middle of downtown Bangkok (or perhaps the edge of downtown, depending on your definition) and plenty of foreigners live, work or travel through that area everyday. it's strange that they wouldn't visit the bars there. Although I did hear something about that area being popular for Korean, Chinese and Taiwanese foreigners, rather than western foreigners, but that could have something to do with what's inside.