Original Documents Vs Computer Print-Outs

[crazydrummerpauly]

I know that at all points, the UKBA states that it requires 'Original documents not photocopies' - but in a way, their position on this has been left behind by developments in the financial world, with its pressure on customers to go 'Paperless' and do all transactions online. So my question is : does anyone have concrete evidence that computer print-outs of docs such as bank-statements, property-deeds or mortgage-statements etc, are now definitely acceptable to UKBA ? (I'm assuming that UKBA have not made a policy-statement about this ?) For sponsors who have already been living in LOS a fair time and who do all their biz online, getting the original paper documents can obviously be a real hassle, possibly requiring a flight home or if lucky enough to have someone back home to assist, risking sending very important items through the international post. So what's the bang up-to-date UKBA position on this please ? Many thanks in advance.

[Eff1n2ret]

This is what it says in IDIs:-

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/IDIs/chp8-annex/section-FM-1.7.pdf?view=Binary

1. Bank statements must be on official bank stationery, or be electronic bank statements from an online account (defined as one that operates solely over the internet and sends bank statements to its customers electronically) which are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

It's a pain in the backside really, but their contention is that it's too easy to alter an electronically produced document. But the Embassy in Bangkok were quite happy recently to accept my First Direct statements when I asked them for a Pension Income letter to support a Non-O Retirement extension - of course, that's Foreign Office, not UKBA

Edit, paras got all scrambled on my first posting

Edited February 24, 2013 by Eff1n2ret

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You can submit whatever you like in the way of original or copy documents. The rules say this:

D. (a) In deciding an application in relation to which this Appendix states that specified documents must be provided, the Entry Clearance Officer or Secretary of State ("the decision-maker") will consider documents that have been submitted with the application, and will only consider documents submitted after the application where sub-paragraph ( b ) or (e) applies.

( b ) If the applicant:

(i) Has submitted:

(aa) A sequence of documents and some of the documents in the sequence have been omitted (e.g. if one bank statement from a series is missing);

(bb) A document in the wrong format; or

(cc) A document that is a copy and not an original document; or

(ii) Has not submitted a specified document,the decision-maker may contact the applicantor his representative in writing or otherwise, and request the document(s) or the correct version(s). The material requested must be received by the UK Border Agency or Border Force at the address specified in the request within a reasonable timescale specified in the request.

(c ) The decision-maker will not request documents where he or she does not anticipate that addressing the error or omission referred to in sub-paragraph ( b ) will lead to a grant because the application will be refused for other reasons.

(d) If the applicant has submitted:

(i) A document in the wrong format; or

(ii) A document that is a copy and not an original document, the application may be granted exceptionally, providing the decision-maker is satisfied that the document(s) is genuine and

that the applicant meets the requirement to which the document relates. The decision-maker reserves the right to request the specified original document(s) in the correct format in all cases where sub-paragraph ( b ) applies, and to refuse applications if this material is not provided as set out in sub-paragraph ( b ).

(e) Where the decision-maker is satisfied that there is a valid reason why a specified document(s) cannot be supplied, e.g. because it is not issued in a particular country or has been permanently lost, he or she may exercise discretion not to apply the requirement for the document(s) or to request alternative or additional information or document(s) be submitted by the applicant.

So, the choice is yours, but be aware that submiting copies when originals are required may delay the application and, I guess the ECO has the right to refuse if he wants to ( if you supply copies), and you will then have to get the originals anyway. Equally, the ECO can issue on the basis of being happy with the copies provided.

Edited February 24, 2013 by ThaiVisaExpress

[crazydrummerpauly]

This is what it says in IDIs:-

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/policyandlaw/IDIs/chp8-annex/section-FM-1.7.pdf?view=Binary

• Bank statements must be on official bank stationery, or be electronic bank statements from an online account (defined as one that operates solely over the internet and sends bank statements to its customers electronically) which are either accompanied by a letter from the bank on its headed stationery confirming that the documents are authentic or which bear the official stamp of the issuing bank on every page.

It's a pain in the backside really, but their contention is that it's too easy to alter an electronically produced document. But the Embassy in Bangkok were quite happy recently to accept my First Direct statements when I asked them for a Pension Income letter to support a Non-O Retirement extension - of course, that's Foreign Office, not UKBA

Edit, paras got all scrambled on my first posting

Thanks for the helpful reply. Interesting to think about the idea that an electronically-produced document is easy to alter - clearly my skills need upgrading as i would have no idea how to Edit a (eg) Barclays Bank statement that remained authentic-looking ! This all seems crazy to me - as if the rules were drafted pre-1980 and have never been updated. As far as i know, if one went into an actual branch of a bank and asked for 6 months statements, they would fire up a computer and print them off, and they would look exactly the same as the ones i can do right here in LOS. So it is all about getting that letter of authenticity or stamp on every page - and i'm not sure how to get either while staying in LOS or anywhere else abroad. As you say, a right royal pain-in-the-xxx !

[crazydrummerpauly]

You can submit whatever you like in the way of original or copy documents. The rules say this:

D. (a) In deciding an application in relation to which this Appendix states that specified documents must be provided, the Entry Clearance Officer or Secretary of State ("the decision-maker") will consider documents that have been submitted with the application, and will only consider documents submitted after the application where sub-paragraph ( b ) or (e) applies.

( b ) If the applicant:

(i) Has submitted:

(aa) A sequence of documents and some of the documents in the sequence have been omitted (e.g. if one bank statement from a series is missing);

(bb) A document in the wrong format; or

(cc) A document that is a copy and not an original document; or

(ii) Has not submitted a specified document,the decision-maker may contact the applicantor his representative in writing or otherwise, and request the document(s) or the correct version(s). The material requested must be received by the UK Border Agency or Border Force at the address specified in the request within a reasonable timescale specified in the request.

(c ) The decision-maker will not request documents where he or she does not anticipate that addressing the error or omission referred to in sub-paragraph ( b ) will lead to a grant because the application will be refused for other reasons.

(d) If the applicant has submitted:

(i) A document in the wrong format; or

(ii) A document that is a copy and not an original document, the application may be granted exceptionally, providing the decision-maker is satisfied that the document(s) is genuine and

that the applicant meets the requirement to which the document relates. The decision-maker reserves the right to request the specified original document(s) in the correct format in all cases where sub-paragraph ( b ) applies, and to refuse applications if this material is not provided as set out in sub-paragraph ( b ).

(e) Where the decision-maker is satisfied that there is a valid reason why a specified document(s) cannot be supplied, e.g. because it is not issued in a particular country or has been permanently lost, he or she may exercise discretion not to apply the requirement for the document(s) or to request alternative or additional information or document(s) be submitted by the applicant.

So, the choice is yours, but be aware that submiting copies when originals are required may delay the application and, I guess the ECO has the right to refuse if he wants to ( if you supply copies), and you will then have to get the originals anyway. Equally, the ECO can issue on the basis of being happy with the copies provided.

Thanks for the reply - but it's the modern meaning of the word 'Copy' as you use it in your last paragraph that's giving me headaches. I would strongly argue that the UKBA is thinking of 'Copy' as a PHOTOCOPY, and that all their rules are based on that out-of-date thinking. A normal print-out from an online bank-account is, i would argue, NOT a 'Copy', because it is direct from the bank's data-base and would be very difficult to fake. Similarly, the idea of 'Original' documents is out-of-date, because the banks, credit-cards etc have all been pushing people to go 'Paperless' for years, so apart from the electronic files, there ARE NO 'Originals' in the old sense. But i do of course like your last sentence ! ('Equally, the ECO can issue on the basis of being happy with the copies provided.') When i made the post i was hoping to hear from members who had actually been successful in that way - so that hope remains : Has anyone received an initial UK Settlement Visa using computer print-outs of their vital documentation ?

[ThaiVisaExpress]

The ECO has some "evidential flexibility", as I outlined above. Further guidance on this, to ECOs, says :

3.4. Evidential flexibility

3.4.1.

There is discretion for UKBA to defer an application pending submission of missing evidence or the correct version of it, within reasonable deadline set for this. UKBA will not have to defer where it does not think that correcting the error or omission will lead to a grant.

3.4.2.

UKBA are also able to grant an application despite minor evidential problems (but not where specified evidence is missing entirely).

3.4.3.

There is additional discretion where evidence cannot be supplied because it is not issued in a particular country or has been permanently lost.

My advice is to provide what is required under the rules ( which is, of course, law). If it cannot be supplied, then explain that to the ECO, and he can use his flexibility if he wants to.

[Eff1n2ret]

Thanks for the reply - but it's the modern meaning of the word 'Copy' as you use it in your last paragraph that's giving me headaches. I would strongly argue that the UKBA is thinking of 'Copy' as a PHOTOCOPY, and that all their rules are based on that out-of-date thinking. A normal print-out from an online bank-account is, i would argue, NOT a 'Copy', because it is direct from the bank's data-base and would be very difficult to fake. Similarly, the idea of 'Original' documents is out-of-date, because the banks, credit-cards etc have all been pushing people to go 'Paperless' for years, so apart from the electronic files, there ARE NO 'Originals' in the old sense. But i do of course like your last sentence ! ('Equally, the ECO can issue on the basis of being happy with the copies provided.') When i made the post i was hoping to hear from members who had actually been successful in that way - so that hope remains : Has anyone received an initial UK Settlement Visa using computer print-outs of their vital documentation ?

I agree that there is a distinction between a copied document and one that is produced online, but UKBA has made a clear distinction by referring to "electronic statements from an online account", and specified how these may be submitted. If I recall correctly, the document from which I quoted (which I can't now access because the page is offline at the moment) relates to the FM Appendix of the Rules, so I do wonder whether any ECO will consider that there is any 'evidential flexibility' in this particular matter, as ThaiVisaExpress suggests.

I also agree that my online statements from First Direct would be difficult for ME to fake, but I am not particularly IT savvy, and I wouldn't assume that there aren't a lot of people out there who possess the know-how and the software to alter entries on an online statement. I've just failed miserably in an experiment to download my statement - it's easy enough to get a straight print-off (which obviously could only be altered on the paper itself), but clicking on the 'download' button brings up a default option for something called "Quicken 97", which my software doesn't seem to recognise. There are other "Quicken" options as well as Microsoft Money which I haven't got, Microsoft Works and Excel, which only display a spreadsheet. There's also Lotus123.

I've no particular need to pursue this, but I assume that the only way I could fulfil UKBA's requirement to the letter would be to phone up the bank and ask them to post suitably endorsed statements. In the context of a one-off or occasional visa application that doesn't seem especially onerous. I will have to get a British Embassy letter every year for the rest of my life if I wish to remain in Thailand.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Eff1n2ret

[ThaiVisaExpress]

"I agree that there is a distinction between a copied document and one that is produced online, but UKBA has made a clear distinction by referring to "electronic statements from an online account", and specified how these may be submitted. If I recall correctly, the document from which I quoted (which I can't now access because the page is offline at the moment) relates to the FM Appendix of the Rules, so I do wonder whether any ECO will consider that there is any 'evidential flexibility' in this particular matter, as ThaiVisaExpress suggests."

Agreed, John, but the original post refers to documents other than just bank statements.

You may also find this reply, from UKBA to me, useful :

“It has now been incorporated into the immigration rules that applicants must provide original documents. The Appendix FM – SE, does specify that any documentary evidence must be original unless otherwise stated. We would therefore expect the applicants to produce original documents with their applications, along with a
full set of photocopies. Further details of these requirements may be found in paragraph 1 sections (h) and (j)

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/immigrationlaw/immigrationrules/appendix-fmse/

I appreciate that we have shown some flexibility on this in the past, but these conditions are now specified in the Immigration Rules rather than just guidelines. Where possible, we will defer applications to request further documents, but as I am sure you will appreciate this will add to delays in the processing of applications.

With regard to internet banking, we acknowledge the fact that original statements may not be produced and will accept the internet printouts especially if they are backed with other forms of original evidence such as employment contracts and wage slips.

Bank statements whether they be originals or internet printouts (when no originals are produced) must be

(i) from a financial institution regulated by the appropriate regulatory body for the country in which that institution is operating.

(ii) not be from a financial institution on the list of excluded institutions in Appendix P of these rules.

(iii) in relation to personal bank statements be only in the name of:

(1) the applicant's partner, the applicant or both as appropriate; or

(2) if the applicant is a child the applicant parent's partner, the applicant's parent or both as appropriate; or

(3) if the applicant is an adult dependent relative, the applicant's sponsor or the applicant,
unless otherwise stated. "

"……………………………….. as the immigration rules now specify that original documents and translations are required we will be expecting visa applications to comply with these criteria.”

Paragraph 1 section (h), referred to above, states :

(h) All documentary evidence must be original, unless otherwise stated.

Tony M

Edited February 25, 2013 by ThaiVisaExpress