Fish Farming ... When It Goes Belly Up

[ozzydom]

Do the shrimp eat the same food as the pla nin?

They would if it ever got down to them, but they recycle Tilapia poo and other rubbish primarily.

As they dont trap like white prawns ,harvesting is done when pond emptied.

[David48]

Do the shrimp eat the same food as the pla nin?

Dear Donald ... maybe have a read of fish-and-shrimp-farm ... it's my account of how the Thais farm their fish and prawns/shrimp based on where I live when I'm in Thailand.

It's their livelihood and yes ... they do make money.

Essentially, the Pla Nin growth cycle is 9 months.

The Prawn that you eat ... the White Prawn ... it's life cycle from Juvenile to Adult (of a commercial size) is about 3 months.

The Farm catch the prawn, sell at the wholesale market. with the money from the Prawn sales, they buy the Fish food.

It's the money from the Fish Harvest with feeds the Farm.

If you are interested in learning about the Prawn side of the Farm ... I did a series with MissFarmGirl about this.

From Hatchery to Harvest.

The first in the series is here ... prawn-harvesting-01 ... there are links at the end of each thread which takes you to the next in the series.

Early morning harvest

It's not very technical, more done with photos and YouTubes for easy explanation.

The blue links above you can simply click and they take you to the threads mentioned.

.

Edited September 5, 2013 by David48

[ray23]

Well I did a spot check on the Pla Mor today about an inch of growth, so I will hang in another month and see what I get,

Dom can you P.M me your phone number, it's currently at the bottom of the pond

I figure I can get nine bags of 30% in my car, so I will go that right I expnded my search out 15 Klms and no luck on 30%. So I will come down after the current bag of 32% small pellets.

[DonaldBattles]

Ray:

Where are you located?

Don

[ray23]

I'm in Udon. That was meant for Aussie Dom

[jayci]

Donald, have you considered stocking a few Barra that are big enough to eat pla nin fry and to small to eat your cats? The Barra will help stop the pla nin numbers growing and then you can use whatever fishing technique to remove the adults.

And when the Barra get too big, harvest then and replace with smaller Barra.

[DonaldBattles]

Not familiar with the Barra can you give me a little more information as what they are like. I am willing to try a lot of things to stop the pla nin. If I can't stop them then I have to give up on my idea of a catfish sport fishing lake. I can't afford to feed the cats and the pla nin. Thanks.

[ozzydom]

Not familiar with the Barra can you give me a little more information as what they are like. I am willing to try a lot of things to stop the pla nin. If I can't stop them then I have to give up on my idea of a catfish sport fishing lake. I can't afford to feed the cats and the pla nin. Thanks.

Donald,Barramundi are a top of the food chain predator,they are a great sportfish and one of the best table fish around.

Barra fry are available in Thailand from Nam Sai Farm.

BUT.....although they are great at gulping down anything smaller than themselves , they are not the golden bullet for your problems.

To my mind ,you have two choices,1.clean the pond out completely and start again or 2. put up with the current situation for the forseeable future as there is no way of ridding your pond of Tilapia with predation or catching methods.

Mixed sex Pla Nin breed like rabbits and even if only a few are left in the pond ,it would not be long before your back to the same situation.

There is a wealth of information re Barramundi on Google.

[DonaldBattles]

OD, many thanks for the information of course I know what a Barramundi is. I have conversed with Dr. Angus at Nam Sai and decided against stocking this time. The cost of the freight and handling to the airport and then to Chiang Rai is very expensive. Further, if I tried to sell them here the Thais do not know what they are and would not buy them.

My only hope is to wait until the catfish get market size and empty the pond and start all over. A good dose of poison and lime should take care of those that are stuck in the mud.

[DonaldBattles]

OD, what is the best market weight for catfish. I don't see so many available. I believe I heard that the selling price would be 46 Baht per kg. Is this correct.

I would like to sell my as soon as they are market weight.

[ozzydom]

OD, what is the best market weight for catfish. I don't see so many available. I believe I heard that the selling price would be 46 Baht per kg. Is this correct.

I would like to sell my as soon as they are market weight.

DB, Red Bull Horn would be the one to advise in those respects,he is the resident catfish expert and a local in your area.

Cats are usually caught in bulk by seining the pond ,but of course this requires a bulk buyer to be in the mix.

Catching small quantities for local sales or even a reseller in the local market might create a problem or two ,but RBH may advise.

[RedBullHorn]

OD, what is the best market weight for catfish. I don't see so many available. I believe I heard that the selling price would be 46 Baht per kg. Is this correct.

I would like to sell my as soon as they are market weight.

DB, Red Bull Horn would be the one to advise in those respects,he is the resident catfish expert and a local in your area.

Cats are usually caught in bulk by seining the pond ,but of course this requires a bulk buyer to be in the mix.

Catching small quantities for local sales or even a reseller in the local market might create a problem or two ,but RBH may advise.

DB, it really depends on what Pla Duk you have in your pond. Pla Duk Lart Sia or Pla Duk Big Oui ?

Since we are in Chiang Rai, this province including all her districts prefered Pla Duk Big Oui to Pla Duk Lart Sia.

Marketable sizes for Big Oui range are 3,4,5,6,7,8 fishes per kilo.

Farmgate prices currently range from ฿46-48/kg base on regular customer/contract pond owners only.

non-regular/Independent farmers prices range are ฿43-45/kg.

Marketable sizes for Lart Sia range are 1,2,3,4,5 fishes per kilo.

Farmgate prices currently range from ฿42-44/kg base on regular customer/contract pond owners only.

non-regular/Independent farmers prices range are ฿40,41/kg.

This are farmgate prices for selling in bulk from wholesalers.

If you can do retail, that is best. You can sell retail price ฿70/kg regardless of sizes. My wife sells our pond clearing left over of 200-300kg very fast at the price of ฿55 for mix sizes. 50kg are quickly snap up per morning session of about 30-45 minutes in our village talat for a few days. Some villagers would come over to our house during the course of the day too. She demanded that she gets to keep what she sold ! Capital, profit all !

"At least return the capital, you can keep the profit." " Noooooo~ " She rebuke...

The small ones (pla foi or "slow performers") goes back to next batch in other ponds, they are about the same sizes and continue to rear on for another 1.5 months and then harvest (they'd become 5,6,7 fishes/kg). But i do oblige small order of 20-30 kg from relatives here, to be rear for they own consumption... and this i sell at ฿50/kg, more than enough for me to recoup my capital of the "slow performers".

Edited September 6, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Dom how do I find the shop that sales 30% protien fish food?

Edited September 7, 2013 by ray23

[ozzydom]

Dom how do I find the shop that sales 30% protien fish food?

Turn left at the first set of traffic lights in Sawang,go to the first feed shop on the left, which is about 400 yards on the left down that road. They have 3 different brands of 30 % .

If you buy 10 bags you may get 10 baht a bag off.

[DonaldBattles]

RBH, I am not sure what is meant by Marketable sizes for Big Oui range are 3,4,5,6,7,8 fishes per kilo.

Does this mean fish per kg for sale?

[ray23]

Dom how do I find the shop that sales 30% protien fish food?

Turn left at the first set of traffic lights in Sawang,go to the first feed shop on the left, which is about 400 yards on the left down that road. They have 3 different brands of 30 % .

If you buy 10 bags you may get 10 baht a bag off.

Thanks Dom not sure I can get ten in the car, do you happen to know what the price per bag is?

Edited September 8, 2013 by ray23

[RedBullHorn]

RBH, I am not sure what is meant by Marketable sizes for Big Oui range are 3,4,5,6,7,8 fishes per kilo.

Does this mean fish per kg for sale?

Marketable sizes for Pla Duk Big Oui range from 3,4,5,6,7,8 fishes/kg.

Meaning the biggest fish size the bulk buyers will accept is 3 fishes/kilo (but in minimum quantity of the volume of fishes in a single pond harvest.)

Same goes to the smallest fish size of 8 fishes/kilo that the bulk buyers will accept.

If you feed the fishes to satiation during the rearing period of 90 days using 3''-4'' fingerlings, you are most likely to get a high percentage of 4 fishes/kilo, 5 fishes/kg and 6 fishes/kg in a single pond. This range (4-6 fishes/kilo) favour all bulk buyers/wholesalers....and you will make profit.

There's a few reasons on why you will lose money even though you have fed them to satiation, attain favourable market sizes of 4 - 6 fishes/kilo.

1. You didn't count your fingerlings or you are not there to witness the process of counting and weighing of your purchased fingerlings, got cheated and short changed,

2. Paid high price for fingerlings,

3. Low quality pellet feed grade, you will get the desirable marketable sizes...but inferior weight gain,

4. Paid high price for pellet feed, feed stockist mark up prices and made unfair amount of profit that was meant to be yours.

5. You are un-trained, poor pond and water management...inferior growth rate,

6. Theft and cheats, from hired farm hands to third party element and bulk buyers/wholesalers.

7. You got impatient, decided to sell too early before fishes reach their maturity.

Cheers

Edited September 8, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[DonaldBattles]

RBH: My fish seem to be doing good in the upper pond where I planted only pla Tab Tim. Growh rate seems ok with 2,000 population.

The lower lake has a lot of pla nin in it. My only hope is to keep feeding until the cat fish have reached a market age and then drain and sell. I had hoped to be able to use this pond for a sport fishing pond but no way with the pla nin population like it is.

Is there a guideline about how much to feed 30% protein based on population of 7,000 and pond size. I am not sure that I am feeding enough at age of 9 weeks at about 8 kg per day for the pla duk? Thanks.

[RedBullHorn]

Donald, 7'000 fishes... Combine figure of all other fishes altogether or just the catfishes alone ?

[DonaldBattles]

The 7,000 catfish are the fry that I put in the 1 Rai pond. God only knows how many pla nin were left over when they drained and seined. I would say at least 500-1000 small pla nin. My goal is to get the catfish up to market size and then start all over. It is hard to tell how much I should be feeding each day to rush the process but so far it has been about 8 kg of 30% per day. I am feeding 2 times per day. I am sure they would eat more if I put it more in. I really dislike having to feed the pla nin as there is no return on my investment with them. I think that I will have to feed about 3-4 months more before they reach market size.

[ozzydom]

The 7,000 catfish are the fry that I put in the 1 Rai pond. God only knows how many pla nin were left over when they drained and seined. I would say at least 500-1000 small pla nin. My goal is to get the catfish up to market size and then start all over. It is hard to tell how much I should be feeding each day to rush the process but so far it has been about 8 kg of 30% per day. I am feeding 2 times per day. I am sure they would eat more if I put it more in. I really dislike having to feed the pla nin as there is no return on my investment with them. I think that I will have to feed about 3-4 months more before they reach market size.

Feeding is usually based on bio-mass and I stand corrected but I think it ranges from 3% for fingerlings down to 1.5% as they grow.

So if your fish average 100 grams they would need in excess of 21 kg per day, when they reach say 200g and feed ratio is reduced they would still need 21kg per day.

[ray23]

Very interesting article in the Nation today.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Aerators-breathe-new-life-into-Kalasin-fish-farmer-30214626.html

[RedBullHorn]

Donald, if it is 7'000 catfishes and you are not in a hurry to sell them but find pleasure during feeding time, just feed them what ever amount of feed you are comfortable with, you could harvest them 8-9 months later. In conjunction with harvesting your Pla Nin.

As Ozzydom said, it is correct that food intake is base on bio-mass (body weight), ranging from 9% for fries, 5% for fingerlings to 3% adult catfish. (catfish display greeder trait when rear semi-intensive/intensive compare to living indiviually in stream where it will need only 1.5%)

　

Guideline

I have a pond with a standard stocking rate of 20'000 Pla Duk Big Oui, I'll use this pond as a guide. Pond size is rectangular shape (preferably), half rai (20m x 40m), position according to wind directions (waves up for DO).

　

Starter fingerlings size is 3''-4'' (preferably), 20'000 Big Oui.

　

Pellet size #1 small - 32% protein. (for the 1st month) Usage : 30 sacks

Pellet size #2, medium - 30% protein. Begining of 2nd month all the way untill harvest.

Usage : 170 sacks

　

fed twice daily. (Satiation)

My definition of satiate means the fishes stomach are full and no longer interested in feeding, pellet feed starts to float around. As you are feeding, once you feel they are slowing down on their aggression in competing for food, slow down and go minimum on the scoop untill you have minimum pellet floating around the feeding area. Don't worry about the excess pellet, they are not wasted as it will be nibble by the fishes in approximately 30-45 mins.

　

Feed are increase according to the ability of fishes daily consumption.

At the end of 7th day, they will be eating 6/10 per day out of a 20kg sack of pellet feed. Sizes range - 4''-5''

At the end of 28th day, they will eat 3 sacks per day. (60kg) Sizes range - 7,8,9 fishes/kg.

By the time they reach the 60th day, they are eating 6 sacks per day. (120kg) Sizes range - 5,6,7 fishes/kg.

On the 90th day, 7-8 sacks per day. (140-160kg) Sizes range - 3,4,5 fishes/kg

On the 92th day, I fast them for 24 hours, lower the water depth to 80cm and harvest on the 93th day

You do the maths for your 7'000 base on the above... But for your situation it will definitely cost you most on feed because of the existing Pla Nin competing for food.

Edited September 15, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ray23]

Excellent formula.

[DonaldBattles]

I will do the ratio of 7000/20000 and try to stick to this kind of feeding cycle. This seems to be a big investment but allows me to reach satiation faster. My mission of making the lower lake a sport fishing lake went off when I did not know that there were so many pla nin left and overstocking. Will know better next time.

Wondering if my wife will give me back some of my money to buy the food. Hard to get money out of a Thai woman. Maybe I have to reduce her budget to 30 Baht per day.

[RedBullHorn]

My investment in this pond of 20'000 catfish is ฿143'380.-

I've have been achieving a steady yield of 4 tonnes per season.

Edited September 16, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

^{*Just a note : The above statement is base on 240 sacks of feed... base on the availability of funds.}

^{The 200 sacks mentioned in earlier post act as a guide line.}

[ray23]

Well I finally found 30% in Udon 605 baht a bag. I will now use yuor formula to caliculate the feed ratio. Stopped by the fishery adn asked wiht feeding 30% how long before I coudl harvest. Answer four months. Four fish to a kilo. Should have 500 kilos in the pond, that equal 50K baht my math has got to be off. I multiplied 500 kilos times 100 baht per kilo. I have approximately 2,000 fish in the pond

I have ten bags that should be enough to finish off this batch.

Anyway now that we know where it is, I will send the brother down sometime this week an see what kind of price he gets,

The next step after that will be to Check out Dom's place.

At this rate it would be cheaper to feed the 32% don't know if I would get the same rate of growth?

I have two months growth time on now. Everyhting is theory right now, we will see how it really works out in a few months.

This may or may not be the last time I do Pla Mor. But, if it will turn that kind of numbers I will do it again.

Next work out how much I should be feeding. Did anyone check the article I posted. It said alteranting feeding times with lower amounts produced better results. Any thoughts on that?

[DonaldBattles]

Fish are like most animals, they have 2 periods of being very active during the day. I notice that if I miss the active period for feeding the pla tab tim are not very interesting in eating. The same thing applies to pole fishing. They simply do not eat all day like my wife does.

The pla duk seem to be hungry all the time and will eat when you feed them.

[RedBullHorn]

Fish are like most animals, they have 2 periods of being very active during the day. I notice that if I miss the active period for feeding the pla tab tim are not very interesting in eating. The same thing applies to pole fishing. They simply do not eat all day like my wife does.

The pla duk seem to be hungry all the time and will eat when you feed them.

... Love that comment~ Donald you made my day.

ray23 yes they do perform better... but do you have the time to feed them three or five time a day ? If you do then you need to stick to the schdule without fail.