Fish Farming ... When It Goes Belly Up

[DonaldBattles]

Thanks to RBH who came and inspected my ponds and fish I have discovered that the friendly Weing Chai dealer gave me 7k of pla sawai rather than 5k of pla ducc and 2 k pla sawai. His bill was printed correctly. Therefore, I have a lot of pla suwai that there appears to be little Thai market for. Any ideas from OZ or others?RBH says that they will have to be fed another 9 months until they reach 1 kg for market. I don't know what market if the Thais do not like to eat these fish.

[ray23]

The only answer I have is fish food cost a lot more then the fish fry.

My brothre may end up in the same situation with the pla mor. If I don't see a big difference next month. I will pump out the piond let the Thai's have them free.

The restock with Pla Duk using RBH's method. Sometime's a little loss is better then a big one.

We all pay with the learning curve for an education.

Boy you are lucky to have him close to check out yuor ponds Ozzie Dom has done the same for us, in the past.

[David48]

I have turned farm over to the brother to operate. That was the idea in the first place a family business. If he takes care of it, he will make money if he doesn't then it's finished. I will stop in time to time and share what I have learned over the last three years. Othe then that you woll find me on the shaded deck, fishing pole and and ice tea in hand.

Ray ... good luck with what you decide to de next.

[ray23]

I will probably still help out, with knowledge not money. Between the plarooms and the fish everything is there for him to make the best living he ever has before.

I will find new things to learn amy even go back and review my Thai lessons again. Three years of glass and I'm still at the basic level. The next four months is going to be about riding and going to biker parties. Then I will find something to keep busy. That period this year is just for fun.

Thanks

Ray

Edited October 7, 2013 by ray23

[ozzydom]

Thanks to RBH who came and inspected my ponds and fish I have discovered that the friendly Weing Chai dealer gave me 7k of pla sawai rather than 5k of pla ducc and 2 k pla sawai. His bill was printed correctly. Therefore, I have a lot of pla suwai that there appears to be little Thai market for. Any ideas from OZ or others?RBH says that they will have to be fed another 9 months until they reach 1 kg for market. I don't know what market if the Thais do not like to eat these fish.

Bloody hell,Donald,your foray into fish farming is not going at all well.

The only redeeming factor may be that you are getting all the bad lessons early.

In my area they just dont like Pla Suwai ,even at throw away prices,the few we see at the markets are from private farm ponds and are priced at about 50% less than Pla Nin to even get rid of them.

That being said, maybe the folk in the North have a taste for them, I cant answer that.

I think a bit of leg work on your part is needed to ascertain whether a market exists for 7 tonne of these fish and what price you can expect ,at least that information will point you in the direction you need to go.

Nine months more outlay on feed for a product you cant sell at a profit is a no brainer,so guess you have to make the decision on which way to jump.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go back to square one,we have done it a couple of times when we have been supplied with mixed sex Tilapia,it hurts to dig a big hole and bury perfectly good fish but at times you are left with few if any choices.

At least ,if you decide to go down the road of cutting your losses,it gives you the chance to also eliminate the unwanted Pla Nin as well and start afresh with a clean canvas.

[ray23]

Same problem this time at the farm with mixed fish, I will ride that one out till March and this month I will cut back on the feeding. They all go in March one way or another.

Salvage waht can be salvaged and move on

I think they make good fertilizer after being buried for a while, shoud be some rich soil from it it nothing else

Edited October 8, 2013 by ray23

[DonaldBattles]

OD:

Thanks for the cheering up. RBH suggested that I let the Thais come in and have a field day fishing and this would eliminate a lot of the fish. I can do this but I need about 3 more months of weight on the pla suwai before they will be of interest. I am ok on the upper like with the pla tab tim. I just have to keep checking and see if their is a market of any kind. Here RBH said that the Thais don't like the smell of the pla suwai. It is a member of the catfish family and I am surprised the Thais don't like to eat them. After all they mostly chop them up and put in a big pot with other things.

[DonaldBattles]

Ray: Think I will hold back and slow down on the feeding until the water gets low around March and April and then take them all out. The If I can't sell then fertilizer for my organic garden is the second best bet. Dig a big hole and mix dirt in with them to expedite the decay. This is a hell of a way to get started. RBH thinks that I should put in about 10k catfish to get started again with his help. He can broker the fish for me and also sell food as he buys in truck loads with some friends.

[ray23]

Ray: Think I will hold back and slow down on the feeding until the water gets low around March and April and then take them all out. The If I can't sell then fertilizer for my organic garden is the second best bet. Dig a big hole and mix dirt in with them to expedite the decay. This is a hell of a way to get started. RBH thinks that I should put in about 10k catfish to get started again with his help. He can broker the fish for me and also sell food as he buys in truck loads with some friends.

My friend we all make mistakes. If you have RBH's help I would do exactly as he says. Let me tell he knows what he is doing. Ten K cat fish will cost you 10K baht at most. What will expend in food just to make fertilizer, which may or may not work. You may think about asking RBH what yuo can do it expeidite getting rid the current fish out.

If I don't see siginificant growth in the Pla Mor next month that is exactly what I'm going to do.

What I was talking about before was Pla Nin they eat algea, so I really don't even have to feed them. Those I will wait on Pla Mor no. Better to take a small loss and move on.

Remember I just ask questions your very lucky to have the help you have. Stay with his program and dig yuorself out of the hole your in now. More then likel;y if yuo don't you are just going to dig the hole deeper.

At least that is what I would do.

Edited October 8, 2013 by ray23

[ozzydom]

OD:

Thanks for the cheering up. RBH suggested that I let the Thais come in and have a field day fishing and this would eliminate a lot of the fish. I can do this but I need about 3 more months of weight on the pla suwai before they will be of interest. I am ok on the upper like with the pla tab tim. I just have to keep checking and see if their is a market of any kind. Here RBH said that the Thais don't like the smell of the pla suwai. It is a member of the catfish family and I am surprised the Thais don't like to eat them. After all they mostly chop them up and put in a big pot with other things.

Good idea from RBH, thais wont worry about size when it comes to free fish.

In our village they have a fishing competition in a local government irrigation pond which is only about 5 rai in size ,but it is a sight to behold, with literally hundreds of locals with their lift nets ,cast nets etc elbow to elbow.

The thing is , there are hardly any fish in the pond ,but they regard it as a festive event.

Rubbish fish boiled up make good tucker for ducks and chickens.

You could even spice up the event by buying in a few big fish to let loose in the pond and paying a prize of a couple of hundred baht for their capture plus prize money for the most weight caught overall.

Thais are very competative and love showing off their fishing skills.

When we have big orders, we have no trouble getting locals to come in with their nets,they even give up work for the day, payment is only a fish cookup and a few bottles of Lao-Khao.

[DonaldBattles]

I have changed my food to the Central Brand made in Nakorn Pathom. 25.5% protein and large pellets. This comes in at Wiang Chai for 430 per bag. So far I am pleased with the progress on the high protein. I will try to keep it this was for a couple for more months and then go down to the CP 16% protein at 320 per bag. RBH recommended the CP 16%. I simply want to finish off both lakes by April and then start again. The old saying "If We Could Live Long Enough We Could Be Smart:. At 80 I feel that my learning is limited.

[ozzydom]

I have changed my food to the Central Brand made in Nakorn Pathom. 25.5% protein and large pellets. This comes in at Wiang Chai for 430 per bag. So far I am pleased with the progress on the high protein. I will try to keep it this was for a couple for more months and then go down to the CP 16% protein at 320 per bag. RBH recommended the CP 16%. I simply want to finish off both lakes by April and then start again. The old saying "If We Could Live Long Enough We Could Be Smart:. At 80 I feel that my learning is limited.

The 430 is a good price for 25.5 % Donald.

Pellet prices are usually governed by the protein content as the fishmeal,meatmeal or soy bean meal that gives most of the protein content is the most expensive component.

At 430 baht you are getting more than 60% extra protein for a 30% price premium.

By buying 10 bags and over we get the CP15.5% for 300 baht but thats the limit to their discount even if you buy 50 bags.

[DonaldBattles]

It seeems that I have had good growth luck with the high protein. I will stick with this for the time being. Again, my goal is to harvest all in April.This gives me 10 months of growth on the pla tab tem and the pla suwai. Hoping that the weight will be OK for the market. Both of my ponds are low on water in april and it is a good time to harvest and clean for the new crop.

[ray23]

Having the cost down to 480 a bag for 30% got the Pla more covered. We pumped out the pond, to have the a lok at the Pla Mor sadly I didn't get to see it. But my brother held up two fingers, whatever that means. I do know there has been substantial growth. So we refilled the pond and will keep going.

The second reason was to refresh the water where Pla Mor were. That water was algea rich, so served a better purpose in the big pond.

We have begin catching the Pla Nin they are not big enough yet. But, I can some out and give the bigger ones more room to grow,. I added four oxygen out lets to the pla mor pond. The smaller pond is where the litle Pla Nin in are going as we catch them. They will eithre become food or grow much faster with the 30%

I laughed at my brother they charged him 5 baht more for Pla Nin food and yuo would have thought that had cut off his leg..

Mushrooms cuttings are providing most of the food along with Algea. So we are only feeding fish food every other day now.

He has onlt seent the m oney coming in and not the money going out. appears to be real shock to his system.

He managed to save 3K baht in the first week he had the farm from Mushrooms sales. So he might make it. He will have to repalce ,mushrooms on a 6 month cycle. If he can last a year, he will do fine. But, he definetly has to spend money to keep things going. I hope he makes it.

My above ground experiment was a failure, no growth to sepak of and even wiht filtres the wate went bad fast. Did ge clean them corectly don't know. Safiest is to use to hold them for sale only in his case.

With the die off I saw last year I'm a bit afraid to wait till April to pump out the big pond

[tingtong]

Having the cost down to 480 a bag for 30% got the Pla more covered. We pumped out the pond, to have the a lok at the Pla Mor sadly I didn't get to see it. But my brother held up two fingers, whatever that means.

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He managed to save 3K baht in the first week he had the farm from Mushrooms sales. So he might make it. He will have to repalce ,mushrooms on a 6 month cycle. If he can last a year, he will do fine. But, he definetly has to spend money to keep things going. I hope he makes it.

if the 2 fingers were 2 thumbs up, then you are on a good track, i think

for the mushrooms, your BIL's test really will only come when there is time to restock the mushroom house again...if he still shows savings after that, he is on the way...if the money isnt there to do so, dont bother.

[RedBullHorn]

The farmhand (of my rental ponds) whom i trained was so ambitious and determine to excavate his pond out of his 10rai paddy plot that he save up his share of the profit i gave him. He worry that he isn't discipline enough to keep the money so i told he to buy gold...and he got such big face around the village with a 2 Baht gold chain around his neck (never have gold before in his life)

When the time come next year, he will have the money after selling the gold...to dig his ponds.

Edited October 11, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[ozzydom]

Well after the trails and tribulations of this growing season there seems to be a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

We planned to commence selling on the 17th but our Poo Yai Baan asked for 20kg this morning and who can refuse the request of the village boss.

So I tossed my net,,20kg was 25 fish ,av weight 800 gram in 8 months growing at our increased price of 85 baht/kg..

Due to my letting T/W do the fry orders ,we are way overstocked to normal but if sales hold up it could be an annus spectaculus. potentially our first million baht gross year.

Edited October 12, 2013 by ozzydom

[David48]

... it could be an annus spectaculus. potentially our first million baht gross year.

You must be jumping for joy ...

Well done OD ...

[ray23]

That is the plan he has replaced 1 K thus far. I will try to get it across to him the best I can.

If he takes small bites like that he will do fine. It was designed like that for a rplacement schedule keeping the product flowing The fish on the other hand he is under feeding. So that might bite him. I have no idea if two fingers are good, The wife and brother seemed to think so.

He had his first 1600 baht day yesterday. He has borrowed our tent to sleep out there. Time will tell. But, he will neve get another chance like this. Said he wanted to get up early to pick the mushrooms results of that is two crops a day.

But, the key is reinvesting.

Edited October 12, 2013 by ray23

[ozzydom]

... it could be an annus spectaculus. potentially our first million baht gross year.

You must be jumping for joy ...

Well done OD ...

Not really David , my only return for working my butt off and bankrolling the operation year after year is sense of satisfaction when I get things right.

My motives are like Ray,s,trying to build a future for T/W after I am not around ,well I figure that at 74 I deserve to hang up the spurs and smell the roses a bit.

The farm now netts around 500k a year so I figure I have done my bit and will soon retire to a little apartment in Udon,I may even have my first ale in 5 years to celebrate.

[David48]

od ... just a quick question ...

I had a quick read back through setting-up-ponds-for-farming-pla-nin ... and you said in the OP that you have a 1 Rai Pond.

Have you waved the magic wand and been able to Farm 1 million Baht of Pla Nin from that single pond?

[ozzydom]

od ... just a quick question ...

I had a quick read back through setting-up-ponds-for-farming-pla-nin ... and you said in the OP that you have a 1 Rai Pond.

Have you waved the magic wand and been able to Farm 1 million Baht of Pla Nin from that single pond?

I think you misread it David, one rai was only an example for setting up ponds.

We have 5 rai in 4 ponds

I take it you mean this paragraph.

.My figures are for the standard size I now build,this being 1 rai(1600sq met.)and able to carry a max water depth of 120cm in the centre out to 50cm at the edges with a slight slope to one end to aid final pumping and harvesting.

Edited October 13, 2013 by ozzydom

[David48]

od ... just a quick question ...

I had a quick read back through setting-up-ponds-for-farming-pla-nin ... and you said in the OP that you have a 1 Rai Pond.

Have you waved the magic wand and been able to Farm 1 million Baht of Pla Nin from that single pond?

I think you misread it David, one rai was only an example for setting up ponds.

We have 5 rai in 4 ponds.

Thanks mate ... my misunderstanding.

... still, I think a visit is due.

The various ponds here are about that size, 5 or 6 Rai ... but they gross less then you.

What general area are you?

Don't worry ... I'm not there till next year!

[ray23]

Not to worry Dom, when you get that apartment. We can still hang out at the my farm on the deck, do a bit of fishing, have some coffee. Heck I will even put in a fridge for your ale if you want. I'm turning the business, but the comforts are still mine.

[ozzydom]

od ... just a quick question ...

I had a quick read back through setting-up-ponds-for-farming-pla-nin ... and you said in the OP that you have a 1 Rai Pond.

Have you waved the magic wand and been able to Farm 1 million Baht of Pla Nin from that single pond?

I think you misread it David, one rai was only an example for setting up ponds.

We have 5 rai in 4 ponds.

Thanks mate ... my misunderstanding.

... still, I think a visit is due.

The various ponds here are about that size, 5 or 6 Rai ... but they gross less then you.

What general area are you?

Don't worry ... I'm not there till next year!

No problems mate, we are between Udon Thani and Sakhon Nakhon ,off Hwy 22.

As clarification of my "forecast" this year we are carrying nearly 17000 fish,sample catching plus the first sales yesterday gives an average weight of 7-800 gram.

Growth has been about 100 gram per month,so by Xmas we should have a good percentage of them up to 1kg and our normal selling season goes till April.just multiply x 85 baht kg.

As to the outlaws 5 rai ponds,

These ponds with the good aeration system they have should carry at least 15000 Pla Nin

It is no state secret that value adding is the way to higher profits,in the case of Pla Nin ,my way is use the green water method hence requiring less proprietry food and grow the fish to a bigger size by carrying them over longer.

There is a 50% difference in gross by growing on to 750 gram rather than selling at 500 gram.

If you have a look at CP sourced fish in the markets around Thailand you will note that their fish are mainly in excess of 1 kg in weight.

There is certainly an added cost in buying fertilizer for pond greening but this is by far outweighed by the savings in pelletised food.

Our 17000 fish are only fed 20kg of 16.5% once a day (mid afternoon)

[David48]

Just going through some old videos and found this panorama of the Farm.

.

[DonaldBattles]

OD: If you were not using the green algae method how many kg of 16.5 percent would you be feeding 17,000 per day?

[ozzydom]

OD: If you were not using the green algae method how many kg of 16.5 percent would you be feeding 17,000 per day?

If I was feeding say 2% of bio mass it would be 8-9 bags per day.

[DonaldBattles]

OD: Thanks for the info. I think I am doing reasonably well with my feeding program on the pla tab tem. I feel that by april they will be ready for the market at around 750 grams. I have been feeding them for 4 months now and have 6 months to go. Your feeding ratio would be around 9 kg per 1000 if my calculations are correct.

od ... just a quick question ...

I had a quick read back through setting-up-ponds-for-farming-pla-nin ... and you said in the OP that you have a 1 Rai Pond.

Have you waved the magic wand and been able to Farm 1 million Baht of Pla Nin from that single pond?

I think you misread it David, one rai was only an example for setting up ponds.

We have 5 rai in 4 ponds.

Thanks mate ... my misunderstanding.

... still, I think a visit is due.

The various ponds here are about that size, 5 or 6 Rai ... but they gross less then you.

What general area are you?

Don't worry ... I'm not there till next year!

No problems mate, we are between Udon Thani and Sakhon Nakhon ,off Hwy 22.

As clarification of my "forecast" this year we are carrying nearly 17000 fish,sample catching plus the first sales yesterday gives an average weight of 7-800 gram.

Growth has been about 100 gram per month,so by Xmas we should have a good percentage of them up to 1kg and our normal selling season goes till April.just multiply x 85 baht kg.

As to the outlaws 5 rai ponds,

These ponds with the good aeration system they have should carry at least 15000 Pla Nin

It is no state secret that value adding is the way to higher profits,in the case of Pla Nin ,my way is use the green water method hence requiring less proprietry food and grow the fish to a bigger size by carrying them over longer.

There is a 50% difference in gross by growing on to 750 gram rather than selling at 500 gram.

If you have a look at CP sourced fish in the markets around Thailand you will note that their fish are mainly in excess of 1 kg in weight.

There is certainly an added cost in buying fertilizer for pond greening but this is by far outweighed by the savings in pelletised food.

Our 17000 fish are only fed 20kg of 16.5% once a day (mid afternoon)

[DonaldBattles]

This week I met with Fisheries Department in Wian Chai. I counted the number of people they have working there and the total is 40. They were very kind and helpful. I was given a complete set of booklets on fish farming all in Thai.

Regarding a feeding regime for Pla Tab Tem and Pla Suwai they recommend daily feeding amounting to 3% of the fish body weight. For example if you had 1000 fish that average 150 grams then you would be feeding 4.5 kg of 25% percent protein. Naturally this is an estimate and a rule of thumb. It does apply to my application.

After 4 months, I am not able to experience growth of 100 Grams per month like some of you have. They did mention that you should increase the feeding monthly as the weight increases accordingly. Also mentioned that when you are approaching satiation you should reduce the feeding as there is demishing returns. If I can harvest both ponds after 9 months of feeding I will feel lucky.