British Activist Fighting To Avoid Thai Jail Term

[Thai at Heart]

Interesting....most of all the large manufacturing companies and all th ones that supply our goodies such in the West at low prices, all use counrtries where labour is cheap and conditons low.....hope everyone does not mind when the price of our goodies go up. ....there is some evidence of child labour but on the whole not huge and when our counrties dveeloped into modern nations we all used child labour...yes the UK did and USA....they built their nations off the back of cheap and slave labour.....people really shoudl read their history books

Thank you getoverit. I don't believe that we developed nations have the right to dictate to others how they produce goods. We can attempt education, and over time they will improve, and product prices will rise as a consequence. Currently a blind eye is turned, and lip service is paid, because consumers demand goods at the lowest prices.

I understand where both of you are coming from.. But let me ask this... Is it morally right to turn a blind eye, is it morally right to say, well, we built our nations off the back of cheap and slave labour. Have we got so callous in our souls that when someone stands up and says; this isn't right, look at what they are doing, we jump all over them and tell them to hold their tongue and be quiet because everyone does it? I hope not, but it looks like that's the way the world now is. And I for one am not happy about it.

Well of course it's not 'right', but it's reality.

A couple of years ago, film was shown on Australian TV of cattle, exported to Indonesia by Australia, being slaughtered in Indonesia in less than humane conditions. The live export trade was stopped by a stupid government, and the reputation of Australia as a reliable trading partner was tarnished. I don't agree with less than humane conditions, but humans are still the most humane killers on the planet. Have you ever seen film of lions killing a giraffe, or an elephant, keeping it alive for couple of days whilst they feast on it until the poor animal finally dies of loss of blood and shock. Telling another country how to run their internal affairs is like demanding that the new owner of a car you sold must only use 95 fuel, or a particular brand of oil.

The way round the problem in Indonesia, and other countries manufacturing for export, is education. Softly, softly, and over time things will change, as will prices.

Why do we tolerate Greeks and Muslims, and probably others, slaughtering animals in their back yards, and the streets, during their religious festivals without first being stunned, as required by the code in Australia (and probably most countries)? Oh, that's in the name of religion, so that's OK. It's not OK, but governments bend to permit it to happen.

It matters not what situation we talk about, it has happened before, and those with the new found morality try to force their wishes on the others. It's arrogant in the extreme, and I'll say it again, consumers demand the lowest price, and that's what drives the manufacturing practices. Governments pay lip service to standards in the interests of the almighty $$, as it has always been, and always will be, regardless of how much we want it to change. To suggest otherwise is delusional.

This is down to the company failing to comply with Thai laws as a bare minimum.

[agnusmaximus]

Get em' Andy! sounds like a bunch of BS they are throwing at you. Your just proving your point that these guys are a bunch of turds if they send you to the slammer. Besides, jail isn't that bad..

[JLCrab]

Post # 121: This is down to the company failing to comply with Thai laws as a bare minimum.

An NGO from Finland said it so I guess it most be so. Huh?

[agnusmaximus]

Natural Fruit is now on my Sh*t List. Better watch yo back..

[JLCrab]

Pineapple shots are on my list too very tasty.

BTW I don't think Mr. Hall will ever end up in the slammer; the outcome would more tend toward his not ever again being able to set foot in the Kingdom.

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[metisdead]

A post containing a link to Andrew Drummond's site has been removed. Please understand Thai Visa is not employed as a tool to obtain information for Andrew Drummond nor do we use material from his web site.

[JLCrab]

According to unverified reports, Mr. Hall is not presently in the Kingdom and in all likelihood will not be returning for his scheduled April 1 court appearance.

In the original post #1 via AFP, it was noted that Mr. Hall is considering a counter suit against NatFruit. It was also noted elsewhere that Mr. Hall has a UK law degree with honours.

I am reminded of the US criminal courts adage: "Any lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client."

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[JLCrab]

The English summary of the report by FinnWatch on Natural Fruit is available here:

http://www.finnwatch.org/images/cheap%20has%20a%20high%20price_exec%20summary_final.pdf

The full report is only available in Finnish language. I have been advised not to put credence in press reports such as in Post #1 and also I would then presume in FinnWatch's own press releases. I was advised that I am not in any position to know what FinnWatch's and Mr. Hall's investigation team did on the ground. Maybe so. The problem is: Neither is anybody else.

Mr. Hall is quoted in the AFP release in Post #1 that the criminal and civil charges are an attempt to silence him and distract him from his work. As I have also been advised that Mr. Hall is not now and most likely will not soon again be in Thailand, that seems to have been effective. If they at FinnWatch had waited until they had more conclusive evidence, that might better constitute proof in Thai court as required under section 330 to exonerate one from criminal defamation charges, maybe that would not be the case. Right now in any court such information as currently available would be considered as hearsay and not conclusive proof of anything.

The important thing here is that, if the allegations in the report are true, how will circumstances improve for those at the factory under such conditions. What this report has done has created a side show that, under Thai law, may prove mostly to divert attention from the critical matters at hand.

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[Thai at Heart]

Post # 121: This is down to the company failing to comply with Thai laws as a bare minimum.

An NGO from Finland said it so I guess it most be so. Huh?

That's a little out of context.

My answer was given in response to a message saying that this involved forcing western values in Thailand. My point was that it was more to do with the company complying with basic Thai laws.

[JLCrab]

Fine. And how is it that you know that the company does not comply with basic Thai laws?

There are many pineapple and fruit processors in PKK Province, several at least larger than the company in question. If this one company is an aberration, the others would be at a competitive disadvantage if they were properly treating their employees as their costs would be higher. Why have none of them, it seems, spoken out? If there is systematic abuse of workers rights at all these companies, then why was this one company singled out?

[A_Traveller]

^ I'm trying to understand your terms of reference here. The term "I have been advised" seems curious, almost as if this were a corporate-speak response.

As to "only" 12 if [and I accept it is if] these were selected in a manner to reduce complicity within the interviewed group, 12 would in my view be enough [after 12 is good for a jury is it not?]

There have been anecdotal claims about this type of treatment for years and not just in companies, but within domestic service situations. The perception is that many Thais take a xenophobic attitude which might be summed up as "They are not Thai so I don't have to be unduly concerned". One can't help but think of the young girl so horrifically treated so recently.

Tales have been around about the fishing fleet again for years. The truth is that it is all too likely that such lack of adherence to the Thai law let alone international standards is indeed systemic.

And there is the tragedy which it would appear an individual [along with an NGO] who as far as I can ascertain is well respected and qualified to undertake such an investigation is simply being treated to the "Blame the Messenger" approach which is all too common hereabouts.

Edited March 10, 2013 by A_Traveller

[JLCrab]

I am using the word 'advised' to conform with ThaiVisa.com stated policy.

I have no basis to say whether the allegations are true or not. It is not so much the number of persons interviewed as their statements are non-corroborated and no mention is made as to how those 12, unlike a jury, were chosen.

I have been advised that what is really important is the court of world opinion. As I linked in a post above, if the allegations are true, then the supplier company is in total violation of the ALDI corporate responsibility suppler policy and that, up to the point of this report, ALDI was totally unaware of that fact. This even though a supplier of this size would almost certainly have had purchaser personnel onsite for quality assurance purposes.

The ALDI Corporate Responsibility Policy states:

Many of our products are being manufactured in countries where existing labor laws may not be sufficiently enforced. Together with our business partners, we strive to establish and maintain social and environmental compliance standards for our supply chain

If the NGO in question, and its investigative team on the ground in Thailand, wants to make allegations in Thailand, knowing full well the onerous state of Thai libel and defamation laws, with such allegations they almost certainly would be unable to prove in court, then I question their handling of this particular circumstance regardless of their well-respected previous work.

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[rattler]

What a rubbish thread this turned into. We used to talk like this in the playground.

Yes but we live in "the playground" or will this be another of my posts that gets deleted?

[Stokakrishna]

go Andy!!!

[Thai at Heart]

Fine. And how is it that you know that the company does not comply with basic Thai laws?

There are many pineapple and fruit processors in PKK Province, several at least larger than the company in question. If this one company is an aberration, the others would be at a competitive disadvantage if they were properly treating their employees as their costs would be higher. Why have none of them, it seems, spoken out? If there is systematic abuse of workers rights at all these companies, then why was this one company singled out?

I have no clue why you ask me. He is the guy who wrote the report. But, this has nothing to do with pushing anything on Thailand. Why was one company singled out? I have no idea.

In fact I have no idea what you want me to say, other than, it isn't rare in Thailand. Hours of work, overtime, social security, age of workers are all clearly defined in Thai law.

And no, it isn't common practice to have staff from buyers Visit EVERY supplier every year, particularly in big box retailing.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[JLCrab]

All I will say before calling it a night is re: "Go Andy!" apparently he already has and left Thai soil for the time being.

[khaowong1]

^ I'm trying to understand your terms of reference here. The term "I have been advised" seems curious, almost as if this were a corporate-speak response.

As to "only" 12 if [and I accept it is if] these were selected in a manner to reduce complicity within the interviewed group, 12 would in my view be enough [after 12 is good for a jury is it not?]

There have been anecdotal claims about this type of treatment for years and not just in companies, but within domestic service situations. The perception is that many Thais take a xenophobic attitude which might be summed up as "They are not Thai so I don't have to be unduly concerned". One can't help but think of the young girl so horrifically treated so recently.

Tales have been around about the fishing fleet again for years. The truth is that it is all too likely that such lack of adherence to the Thai law let alone international standards is indeed systemic.

And there is the tragedy which it would appear an individual [along with an NGO] who as far as I can ascertain is well respected and qualified to undertake such an investigation is simply being treated to the "Blame the Messenger" approach which is all too common hereabouts.

I agree with you.. why only 12 out of 700, who knows, maybe he could only find 12 who were willing to talk about it.. Only Andy knows the answer to this.. And I do believe that in most developed countries of the world, 12 would be enough to warrant an investigation of this company.. There are several posters on here who seem to think that everybody should just keep their mouths shut and let this company do what it's doing. There also are a lot of people who still believe the Holocaust was fabricated and/or believed that Germany had a right to govern it's own country without interference from without. I know that's stretching things a little, but why do they put their heads in the sand and say, it's reality, live with it.

What's that saying? "Evil wins when good men do nothing.". And to make one more point... many people say, if you regulate these industries, making them adhere to moral employment and health laws, the price of these goods would go up, no one would buy them thus forcing them to close. It wouldn't make any difference if ALL the companies played by the same rules. Yes, most likely prices would go up, but if all the companies adhered to the same employment rules, ALL the prices would go up so that a consumer would only have decide which company he bought from.. I think you get my drift.

Edited March 10, 2013 by khaowong1

[JLCrab]

Only Andy knows the answer to this. Say what? This was an investigation of a company in a country with some of the world's strictest libel and defamation laws. The Thai law makes a point that to avoid such possible charges, you must be able to prove your allegations. The report as issued contains proof of nothing and Mr. Hall got stung.

[OzMick]

Only Andy knows the answer to this. Say what? This was an investigation of a company in a country with some of the world's strictest libel and defamation laws. The Thai law makes a point that to avoid such possible charges, you must be able to prove your allegations. The report as issued contains proof of nothing and Mr. Hall got stung.

If you think that the aim of Thai libel law is to ensure allegations are true, you have been sadly misinformed.

[JLCrab]

Thanks buddy. I have been sadly misinformed many times before.

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[khaowong1]

Am I the only one who finds JLCrab's motives suspicious?

[JLCrab]

As the Texans say: I've got no dog in this hunt.

My motives, if any, are that because of some sloppy investigative work and premature release of hearsay evidence some possibly bad actors may get off the hook.

As per Post #1, a hearing is scheduled for April 1 but Mr. Hall has said he has more important things to do. Stay tuned.

Edited March 10, 2013 by JLCrab

[khaowong1]

Another Texas saying is; You can't get lard unless you boil the hog.

[JLCrab]

Well we can go back and forth but a saying when I worked in Texas on computer stuff: GIGO

(Garbage In; Garbage Out)

The Post topic here is whether libel and defamation offenses were committed under Thai law; If you want to discuss the veracity of the claims made by the interviewees, maybe you should start another topic.

Edited March 11, 2013 by JLCrab

[hellodolly]

Sorry, but I think our YTP is correct in his arguments.

I live in Thailand and hopefully if all goes well, intend to stay here for the rest of my natural.

Considering that I want to live here, my choice, then I must adapt and become part of the Thai ways of thinking, including abiding and accepting the laws which I have to live under, so I have to let all this political stuff wash over my head and not become involved.

If for any reasons the Thai way of life, it`s laws and politics start to irritate me or I strongly begin to disagree with the way this whole country is run, than I would have to question the reasons, why am I here and what is the point of remaining in a country that has a system I detest? This is more or less what our YTP is saying, although he`s a little more brutal in his approach.

Believe it or not, there are many ex-pats, including myself who truly love living in Thailand and live in peace here. I consider myself extremely lucky and fortunate to have made it here at all, and certainly see no benefits in other foreigners trying to stir up the hornets nest.

It`s as YDP says and the same goes for me, if Thailand doesn`t suit then move on, otherwise what`s the point or benefits in complaining about everything?

Some people seems to be unnecessarily tying themselves up in knots trying to justify corruption and breaking of Thai laws under the bogus heading of Thai 'culture', 'thinking' etc.

Not justifying them just accepting them as a part of Thailand that is wrong and they can not change so why get tied up in knots over it.

[wilcopops]

"Considering that I want to live here, my choice, then I must adapt and become part of the Thai ways of thinking, including abiding and accepting the laws which I have to live under, so I have to let all this political stuff wash over my head and not become involved."

I would have thought that part of living or being alive is to have opinions and take actions when one sees fit. I one gives up on this as the poster suggests then one might conclude that the poster has in reality achieved his/her goal and come to the end if his "natural"

Edited April 23, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Well we can go back and forth but a saying when I worked in Texas on computer stuff: GIGO

(Garbage In; Garbage Out)

The Post topic here is whether libel and defamation offenses were committed under Thai law; If you want to discuss the veracity of the claims made by the interviewees, maybe you should start another topic.

I don't think your view of the topic subject is correct - perhaps you should re-read the title.