Shoot the messenger, rather than fix the problem.

Great idea.

Definitely the Europeans will go for this one.

Computer Crimes Act, that masterpiece of fascist legislation that was
slipped in under the weak pretext of protecting consumers from online scams,
now doing what it always was supposed to do - suppressing freedom of
expression in order to maintain the skewed distribution of wealth and power.

The law is not known to have ever been used against computer scammers.

What a rubbish thread this turned into. We used to talk like this in the playground.

Maybe in your playground, Mr Cooked.

The fact is Thailand is at a difficult age. It's developing fast but it still has a backward outlook in many respects. It is both charming and frustrating but overall the good certainly outweighs the bad.

Edited March 8, 201313 yr by bigbamboo

If the company's pineapple juice products were sold in the USA instead of EU, and the allegations prove true, you would have plaintiff's lawyers tripping all over themselves suing the big juice companies and retailer's saying their (class of) customers bought tens of millions of dollars of the juice products on representation that such products were produced under proper labor standards and working conditions. And now they want their money back in triple damages..

I would say help the guy and start a boycott of Natural Fruit on social media, it is the only thing that companies that abuse workers fear.

Good luck to him. I hope he has solid proof of what he's been saying - and that he has copies of it somewhere very safe.

AFAIK truth is no defence in a Thai court.

FAIK truth is no defence in a Thai court.

He currently resides in Burma so the Thai court cannot serve him a notice. Unless the public persecutor office will take this up and initiate some international extraction case, nothing will happen. Nobody is fighting anything at the moment contrary to what this article is trying to suggest. The only thing that happened is that this man lost his appointment at a well-known research institute in Thailand after the company in question put pressure on via government officials

What a rubbish thread this turned into. We used to talk like this in the playground.

Maybe in your playground, Mr Cooked.

The fact is Thailand is at a difficult age. It's developing fast but it still has a backward outlook in many respects. It is both charming and frustrating but overall the good certainly outweighs the bad.

It's the 'yes it is, no it isn't stuff' that belongs in the playground.

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

Just a minor point, but why would Andrew Drummond go back to Australia when he is from Scotland?

Respect to the man.

Very few ready to fight this way.

Didn't know about Natural Fruit until reading this article. Googled them. Found their website.

... they don't need this British guy damaging their 'image' -- their crap horrible website and packaging design does that for them!! I'd NEVER buy something like that even if it were the cheapest one on the shelf!

From post #68 above

... they don't need this British guy damaging their 'image' -- their crap horrible website and packaging design does that for them!! I'd NEVER buy something like that even if it were the cheapest one on the shelf!

NatFruit is a private label supplier so you would most likely never see their packages on the shelves in Europe

BTW in the articles I have read about the investigation, it lists lots of numbers of total employees and immigrant employees but I have not seen just how many complaining workers were interviewed. This being Thailand, one cannot also rule out that this was possibly a set-up arranged by a disgruntled competitor.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3484

Edited March 8, 201313 yr by JLCrab

So if the truth hurts someone's feelings then it is illegal to say? Thailand and Thai companies should work to improve their images through their actions and not through silencing their critics.

In America these activists get gang stalked, drugged and mind controlled or just murdered via "accidents". It's all the same thing but covered up in different disguises, all over the world.

<snip>

If for any reasons the Thai way of life, it`s laws and politics start to irritate me...

<snip>

So if it was your partner that got run over by a rich kid in a Benz or rear-ended by a rich kid in a Ferrari, would that get you irritated?

Course not, he's living in a 3rd world country !

Shoot the messenger, rather than fix the problem.

Great idea.

Definitely the Europeans will go for this one.

The Thai way !

...typical hypocrisy....

....I recall many Thai 'rights activists' having been killed in the last 5-10 years....environment ...forestry.....local people.....etc...

I am in Koh Chang and anyone who want to stay in Mercure Hotel (part of one of the biggest and expensive Hotel franchise in the world with +700 hotels) have to check behind the hotel where the Cambodian staff is sharing their free 'accommodation' living in huts with no bathrooms, no hot water, in the middle of garbage.

It is disgusting, and these people are working days and night with a smile on the face. Customers pay about $100 a night and Mercure is banking big $$$. The staff are paid only $100 a month.

It is good someone put a light of what is commonly accepted everywhere in Thailand.

Are you now waiting for your defamation case to start?

This is not really about the Thai way at all. It is about a society that has been engineered for the advantage of a particular sector within it by that very sector. The average Thai just sees this as the norm simply because they lack experience of any other way. It will take something of French Revolution proportions to fix.

My understanding is that it matters not a jot whether accusations are true or not. He has made the Natural Fruit Company appear in a bad light and that is an offence, both criminal and civil. Does anybody know otherwise?

I do hope that common sense will prevail because arraigning Andy Hall will attract even wider bad publicity and drag Thailand's reputation below the gutter level it currently rates. Asking him to leave the country seems to be the best option open.

Sorry Bagwan, I have to disagree. Can you imagine the headlines in the International press - HUMAN RIGHTS CONSULTANT EXPELLED OUT OF HAND FROM THAILAND DUE TO CRITICAL REPORT WRITTEN BY HIM ON WHAT HE PERCEIVES AS COUNTRY'S HUMAN RIGHTS FAILINGS. The best damage limitation would be for his report to be investigated by the appropriate Thai Authority and for them to produce a report on his accusation, before any knee-jerk reaction is taken.

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

You wish.

I think that he is a very brave individual, but would advise him to leave Thailand immediatley and not return !

Good luck to him. I hope he has solid proof of what he's been saying - and that he has copies of it somewhere very safe.

Sadly in Thailand being 100% correct is not a adequate defence against besmirchment/slander/ corruption charges.

In the land where personal and corporate face are intertwined, accusers get the shaft more often than the original wrong doer.

Good luck to him. I hope he has solid proof of what he's been saying - and that he has copies of it somewhere very safe.

Sadly in Thailand being 100% correct is not a adequate defence against besmirchment/slander/ corruption charges.

In the land where personal and corporate face are intertwined, accusers get the shaft more often than the original wrong doer.

I think this young man would have been wise to return to his home country before spilling the beans.

Andrew Drummond? I have never seen anything he has written condemning Thailand in any way. Most everything that I have read of his is about exposing crooked and corrupt farangs in Thailand.

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

You have a valid point about the company - that is, if you are not involved with it. But your opening sentence contains the following: admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, which rather reveals your attitude to Mr Hall who, it seems to me, is doing his job.

If the company is as squeeky clean as you say, why don't they open their doors to an independent NGO for a proper investigation. Unfortunately that's not the Thai way - shutting up by legal means (or worse) activists is the local MO.

Don't worry about Andy, he has balls.

EU is not without power, do not fight them. Natural Fruit could end up to be forbidden to export to EU. Thailand is corrupt but do not fight EU, they will love to take the fight if something is wrong at Natural Fruit and it seems so.

As per Post #92, if they were a supplier directly or indirectly to an American retailer company like WalMart, they would already be contractually obligated to a inspection as to labor practice and conditions by auditors summarily and without notice.

Edited March 8, 201313 yr by JLCrab

Why do almost all of the TVF posters automatically assume this admittedly liberal anti capitalist gadfly, Andy Hall, is unbiased and accurate in his reporting on Natural Fruits? Have you looked into Natural Fruits complaint against him? He has an agenda. He is paid to attack, any and all, for profit capitalist companies. That is how he makes his living. He has damaged Natural Fruits reputation and hurt their sales by his accusations. Likewise, he has damaged Thailand's reputation. What is Nautral Fruit and Thailand by extension, suppose to do? Stand by idly while their reputation and livelihood is defamed and attacked? Natural Fruit isn't a multinational conglomerate. They are a relatively small, environmentally friendly business that provides steady employment for around 500 to 600 employees. I know the TVF posters are a highly educated group and it puzzles me why most of you just automatically suspend your natural scepticism when the issue involves an attack on a for profit business. What would you do if your company and livelihood were attacked? Yes Natural Fruits hires temporary migrant workers but they also employ over 500 full time regular workers and pay them a fair wage and benefits. Why would you support the destruction of the lives of these people and their families. If Andy Hall and Andrew Drummond had their way that is exactly what would happen. Andrew Drummond should go back to Australia and address the internal problems and issues Australia has as should Andy Hall go back to Finland and work on improving Finland. Leave Thailand and Natural Fruits alone.

I agree, I don't think this is as open and shut as many posters would like. Journalists and NGO workers in Thailand are not always the most truthful people and often bend the truth to fit their agenda, it is totally possible that the things this guy has said are misleading and do constitute defamation. This company does have the right to defend themselves if what this guy is saying is inaccurate or misleading.

From post #68 above

... they don't need this British guy damaging their 'image' -- their crap horrible website and packaging design does that for them!! I'd NEVER buy something like that even if it were the cheapest one on the shelf!

NatFruit is a private label supplier so you would most likely never see their packages on the shelves in Europe

BTW in the articles I have read about the investigation, it lists lots of numbers of total employees and immigrant employees but I have not seen just how many complaining workers were interviewed. This being Thailand, one cannot also rule out that this was possibly a set-up arranged by a disgruntled competitor.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3484

Very very unlikely.