Knife-Wielding Men Kill 4, Injure 8 In China's Xinjiang

[News_Editor]

<p> Knife-wielding men kill 4, injure 8 in China's Xinjiang </p>< br />

<p>2013-03-09 10:10:46 GMT+7 (ICT) </p><br /> <p>ÜRÜMQI, CHINA (BNO NEWS) -- Four people have been killed and eight others have been injured after a knife attack in northwestern China, local authorities confirmed on Friday, but few details were released amid fears the incident could trigger further unrest. At least one suspect was taken into custody.<br /></p><br /><p>A local government spokeswoman said the incident occurred on Thursday afternoon in Korla, a city in China's Xinjiang Uygur autonomous region, when several knife-wielding men attacked people. She described the attackers as members of a Uighur ethnic group and said one of them had been taken into custody.<br /></p><br /><p>Officials confirmed four people were killed while eight others were injured, although their conditions were not immediately known. It was also unclear whether the attack was politically motivated, and state-run media did not report on the incident amid fears the incident could trigger further unrest in the region.<br /></p><br /><p>Xinjiang was the scene of violent clashes between Uighur Muslims and Han Chinese in July 2009, leaving 197 people killed and more than 1,700 others injured. The riots were the region's worst ethnic clashes in decades and the violence only stopped when a large number of troops were deployed to the remote western region.<br /></p><br /><p>Following the riots, China cut all communications from the region to the rest of the world, including international phone calls, text messaging, and the Internet. Thousands of additional security forces have since been deployed and thousands of 'riot-proof' closed-circuit television cameras have been set up in public places in an attempt to discourage any violence or unrest.<br /></p><br /><p>An estimated eight million Uighurs are now living in the Central Asian region of Xinjiang. A large number of Uighur are reportedly unhappy about the large migrant Han Chinese settlers, accusing them of making their interests less important and generally disregarding their culture.<br /></p> <p>

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2013-03-09 </p>

[Publicus]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people. Uighurs are Turkic speaking, Sunni Muslim people of central Asia who were annexed by China in the 19th century. The Han Chinese have moved onto Uighur lands and are taking over, destroying Uighur society, culture, civilization, replacing it with Chinese dictatorship and brutal repression of Uighurs when they regularly revolt against their repressive and murdering Chinese rulers.

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/30/violence-in-xinjiang-indicative-of-deeper-problems/

[squarethecircle]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people. Uighurs are Turkic speaking, Sunni Muslim people of central Asia who were annexed by China in the 19th century. The Han Chinese have moved onto Uighur lands and are taking over, destroying Uighur society, culture, civilization, replacing it with Chinese dictatorship and brutal repression of Uighurs when they regularly revolt against their repressive and murdering Chinese rulers.

So it's like the Patani of China?

Actually if you look at what Islamothugs are up to in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries bordering China, it's no surprise that PRC's shoring up its western borders. Too bad these people are caught in the middle as they have a reputation for being the friendliest and cleanest people in China. Like the people in Patani - friendly as.

[Publicus]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people. Uighurs are Turkic speaking, Sunni Muslim people of central Asia who were annexed by China in the 19th century. The Han Chinese have moved onto Uighur lands and are taking over, destroying Uighur society, culture, civilization, replacing it with Chinese dictatorship and brutal repression of Uighurs when they regularly revolt against their repressive and murdering Chinese rulers.

So it's like the Patani of China?

Actually if you look at what Islamothugs are up to in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries bordering China, it's no surprise that PRC's shoring up its western borders. Too bad these people are caught in the middle as they have a reputation for being the friendliest and cleanest people in China. Like the people in Patani - friendly as.

Actually the Han Chinese have massively displaced the Uighurs in their own land, supressing a separatist movement there 1955 and brutally repressing several rebellions since. The CCP's Armed Police have killed Uighurs in the streets and imprisoned them in labor camps by the thousands. Colin Thubron, the great British travel writer, has called the Han displacement of the Uighurs a "silent demographic genocide." The reason: Beijing has literally been pouring in Han Chinese to outnumber the Uighurs, and using a rail line to Kashgar, opened in 1999, to accelerate the dilution. Ethnic Han Chinese numbered less than 300,000 in the Uighurs' territory 50 years ago. The Uighurs are now outnumbered.The Uighurs live in the oil and gas rich Xinjaing Region, which is not a province yet it consists of a sixth of Chinese territory. Despite Beijing's claims to the territory bordering Kyrgistan, and Tajikistan, Uighurs have a distinct national identity from the Chinese. (The Uighurs had an independent kingdom there, briefly, in the 7th century). The Region was formally annexed by Beijing in 1955 following a couple of attempts at secession by the Uighurs, who called their territory the Islamic Republic of East Turkestan.

Further, according to Human Rights Watch Beijing's religious control of the Uighurs has become extreme, ruthless.

Beijing is adept at making things worse for its subjugated peoples of Tibet and its westernmost Xinjiang Region, in this instance continuing to claim the Uighurs are a terrorist threat. To secure Beijing's UN Security Council passivity on Iraq, the Bush Administration branded a Uighur resistance group terrorists. However, a U.S. Court in 2009 ordered that six Uighurs given by Beijing to Bush, who sent them to Guantanamo, be immediately released. "I think the moment has arrived for the court to shine the light of constitutionality on the reasons for detention," U.S. District Court Judge Ricardo Urbina said in ordering the Uighurs released. Indeed, the Uighur people are a systematically repressed minority whose Islamic status is being exploited by China on the world "war on terror" stage. Beijing regularly sentences Uighur men to death for their roles in continuing nationalist unrest in Xinjiang. While Beijing's abuse of Tibetan people or other ethnic Chinese sparks international outcry, the world is less apt to jump to the defense of Uighurs. So why is that?

The answer is both simple and disheartening. Beijing has cynically managed to rally support in the western world for its suppression of the Uighur minority by emphasizing the Uighurs' Muslim beliefs, and then conflating them with Islamic extremist terrorists. However, Uighur people have traditionally practiced a very moderate, syncretic form of Islam. But if the world stands by and allows Beijing to group them together with radical Wahhabist fanatics, it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. We would do well to support the Uighurs, rather than allowing mistreatment by Beijing possibly to radicalize them.

The New York Times ran a shatteringly tragic story about Beijing's demolition of Kashgar -- flatening the entire city, its vast historic districts that attract a million visitors a year included, and replacing it all with modern construction. Some of the constructions are supposedly in the Uighur style. Don’t believe it. And the Uighurs are supposedly being compensated for their loss and invited to return to newer housing, though the new houses cost more than what they're being compensated for. Why is the CCP doing this? Because it claims to be protecting the Uighurs' poorly constructed dwellings from devastation in an earthquake. Rebuilding the city, you see, is a preventive measure. This is the same CCP in Beijing that quickly is becoming internationaly notorious for its construction of "ghost cities" which never are occupied - See this link http://www.ibtimes.com/largest-mall-world-another-one-chinas-many-ghost-towns-slideshow-1112480

Anyway, as to the CCP's pretext for demolishing Kashgar, don’t believe it. It's a way to ethnically cleanse Kashgar more effectively, expropriating land and dwellings, and accommodating the new influx of Chinese from the East into the sort of houses they're more used to. Except for an occasional uprising Beijing ruthlessly crushes, It's a silent genocide, plus the noise of construction--the demolition of a moderate Islamic culture of 8 million Uighurs that's going apace, unopposed, unobstructed.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Publicus

[squarethecircle]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people. Uighurs are Turkic speaking, Sunni Muslim people of central Asia who were annexed by China in the 19th century. The Han Chinese have moved onto Uighur lands and are taking over, destroying Uighur society, culture, civilization, replacing it with Chinese dictatorship and brutal repression of Uighurs when they regularly revolt against their repressive and murdering Chinese rulers.

So it's like the Patani of China?

Actually if you look at what Islamothugs are up to in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries bordering China, it's no surprise that PRC's shoring up its western borders. Too bad these people are caught in the middle as they have a reputation for being the friendliest and cleanest people in China. Like the people in Patani - friendly as.

Further, according to Human Rights Watch Beijing's religious control of the Uighurs has become extreme, ruthless.

If you look at what the Muslims are doing in Europe, the Chinese are smart to crack down on any chance of this happening...especially given the proximity to Afghan and Pakistan. That part makes sense to me.

Not to defend the crackdown on the Uighurs, who as I previously said, are apparently stuck in the middle and not at fault.

Have you been to this region in China? I want to go there after having it recommended...would be interesting to hear if you have.

[Steely Dan]

I have three observations, First, the Chinese centralist approach is not exactly benevolent to it's own Han majority. The rural poor are often subject to compulsory purchase orders for little compensation when the government decides to develop yet another concrete white elephant. The issue is also not imho about religion as the Tibetans suffer the same dilution by mass Han migration.

Second, however bad the Uighur have it, I would venture the Kurds fare worse in Muslim Countries, as coming to think of it do almost any religious or racial minority in any Muslim Country, with the possible exception of Malaysia and parts of Indonesia.

Third, If you address your grievances through murdering civilians you are likely to be dealt with pretty severely in China, unlike in a self-hating liberal democracy, which through denial and attempts to placate the worst elements set off a vicious cycle of demands backed by violence and intimidation.

[Publicus]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people. Uighurs are Turkic speaking, Sunni Muslim people of central Asia who were annexed by China in the 19th century. The Han Chinese have moved onto Uighur lands and are taking over, destroying Uighur society, culture, civilization, replacing it with Chinese dictatorship and brutal repression of Uighurs when they regularly revolt against their repressive and murdering Chinese rulers.

So it's like the Patani of China?

Actually if you look at what Islamothugs are up to in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and other countries bordering China, it's no surprise that PRC's shoring up its western borders. Too bad these people are caught in the middle as they have a reputation for being the friendliest and cleanest people in China. Like the people in Patani - friendly as.

Further, according to http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005/04/11/china10447.htm'>Human Rights Watch Beijing's religious control of the Uighurs has become extreme, ruthless.

If you look at what the Muslims are doing in Europe, the Chinese are smart to crack down on any chance of this happening...especially given the proximity to Afghan and Pakistan. That part makes sense to me.

Not to defend the crackdown on the Uighurs, who as I previously said, are apparently stuck in the middle and not at fault.

Have you been to this region in China? I want to go there after having it recommended...would be interesting to hear if you have.

First to reply to your question, I spent three years recently in southernmost China where the climate is more accommodating and, in the province, Guangdong, that is the most developed province in the CCP-PRC. Saying GD is the most developed province in the PRC, however, we need to think Alabama in the United States, or Arkansas - deep South states such as those (West Virginia). I rarely ventured further north than Guangxi province, which is sort of like going from Bangkok to Nonthanaburi (well, maybe Khon Kaen ) . In the real North of the PRC, I did visit Beijing, the highligh of which was a night at the Beijing Hard Rock Cafe.

The three most developed areas of the PRC are Guangdong province, metro Beijing and Greater Shanghai. I met some Uighurs in Guangzhou City, the capital of GD province. The Uighurs I met look as caucasian as Justin Beiber, which was a revelation to me. There are many Uighurs however in the factories of GD province. Violence between the Uighurs in GD province and the locals has erupted several times in recent years, the most recent incident, in 2010, drawing then PM Wen Jaibao to the scene to try to calm things by giving pay raises, fewer hours etc. Left unresolved however were the complaints of GD locals that the Uighurs were - of all things - trying to get better acquainted with the local Han Chinese women . "Grandpa Wen" left town without ever addressing that one (filthy rich "Grandpa Wen").

From what the Uighurs say about their lives in Xinjiang, I wouldn't go to Xinjiang, which is a Special Region of the CCP-PRC. The situation there was described to be as, in my choice of words, ugly. The Han CCP Chinese have been moving into the territory for several decades. CCP members are assigned by the CCP brass to relocate to Xinjiang in the name of the grand march of China through the ages; the same has been occurring in Tibet. The Uighurs (and Tibetans) are scattered throughout the countryside, disenfranchised in their own land, which is classic of the Chinese.

It does not matter whether one is Muslim, Buddhist in Tibet or Buddhist anywhere else, Christian, Jewish or Zarathustrian or whatever, the Boyz in Beijing and the Han Chinese mean to dominate and control the world. Keep in mind the Chinese don't call themselves the "Chinese." The Han are the Zhong Gwo, i.e., the central country and have been so for thousands of years. The Zhong Gwo are legends in their own minds. Consequently the organizations abroad, in the West, which represent the Uigher people and report on their plight need our support.

The Zhong Gwo don't care what religion you are, or your skin color, your ethnicity, your nationality and the like, The Zhong Gwo are certain they have the natural right to control you and your life. So you need to do something radical: think of yourself as an honorary Uighur, or a German Jew in the 1930's. Can you do that?

Edited March 16, 2013 by Publicus

[Scott]

Off-topic, but most Kurds in Muslim countries are also Muslim.

[squarethecircle]

Further, according to Human Rights Watch Beijing's religious control of the Uighurs has become extreme, ruthless.

If you look at what the Muslims are doing in Europe, the Chinese are smart to crack down on any chance of this happening...especially given the proximity to Afghan and Pakistan. That part makes sense to me.

Not to defend the crackdown on the Uighurs, who as I previously said, are apparently stuck in the middle and not at fault.

Have you been to this region in China? I want to go there after having it recommended...would be interesting to hear if you have.

First to reply to your question, I spent three years recently in southernmost China where the climate is more accommodating and, in the province, Guangdong, that is the most developed province in the CCP-PRC. Saying GD is the most developed province in the PRC, however, we need to think Alabama in the United States, or Arkansas - deep South states such as those (West Virginia). I rarely ventured further north than Guangxi province, which is sort of like going from Bangkok to Nonthanaburi (well, maybe Khon Kaen ) . In the real North of the PRC, I did visit Beijing, the highligh of which was a night at the Beijing Hard

The Zhong Gwo don't care what religion you are, or your skin color, your ethnicity, your nationality and the like, The Zhong Gwo are certain they have the natural right to control you and your life. So you need to do something radical: think of yourself as an honorary Uighur, or a German Jew in the 1930's. Can you do that?

An honorary Uighur, that'd be an honour...it's strange and irrational that the Han Chinese consider themselves so great, but are dependent on (stealing from) the west for their survival. Same goes with Koreans, Japs, etc...all of these Asian people seem brain-washed to think of themselves as the Superior Race.

Anyways, I'd take cultural domination by the Chinese over psychotic tyranny of an Islamofascist any day of the week. Chinese don't seem to assimilate so well into the west (or anywhere), but also don't impose their rule like the Muslims are compelled to by the Holy Book.

All this is irrelevant to the original topic, though, so I'll leave it at that.

[Publicus]

If cultural dominance by the Han were to occur - a highly unlikely development - you would get the CCP's political opression and repression; you would get the party's indoctrination from birth, through all the grades of school/college and from the mass media, family, relatives, friends etc. You would be a clone of the CCP. People would press your button and you'd recite verbatum the complete party line

You really gotta get a better wish list.

[Steely Dan]

If cultural dominance by the Han were to occur - a highly unlikely development - you would get the CCP's political opression and repression; you would get the party's indoctrination from birth, through all the grades of school/college and from the mass media, family, relatives, friends etc. You would be a clone of the CCP. People would press your button and you'd recite verbatum the complete party line

You really gotta get a better wish list.

I think you are in danger of conflating culture with ideology. Chinese culture is centuries old and contains much that is good along with the not so good. Communism is an ideology, and the CCP at least would claim to act based on said ideology. Chinese people in Taiwan, or anywhere else in the world cause little problem and seem to discard communism like they would an old sock. Islam is both a religion and a political ideology. Should the Uighur want to follow their own religion and culture and let others do likewise then good luck to them. If however they act based on an ideology that tolerates no other then coexistence will be a big problem, history will eventually pronounce on the western versus the Chinese approach to such issues.

[simple1]

Further, according to Human Rights Watch Beijing's religious control of the Uighurs has become extreme, ruthless.

If you look at what the Muslims are doing in Europe, the Chinese are smart to crack down on any chance of this happening...especially given the proximity to Afghan and Pakistan. That part makes sense to me.

Not to defend the crackdown on the Uighurs, who as I previously said, are apparently stuck in the middle and not at fault.

Have you been to this region in China? I want to go there after having it recommended...would be interesting to hear if you have.

First to reply to your question, I spent three years recently in southernmost China where the climate is more accommodating and, in the province, Guangdong, that is the most developed province in the CCP-PRC. Saying GD is the most developed province in the PRC, however, we need to think Alabama in the United States, or Arkansas - deep South states such as those (West Virginia). I rarely ventured further north than Guangxi province, which is sort of like going from Bangkok to Nonthanaburi (well, maybe Khon Kaen ) . In the real North of the PRC, I did visit Beijing, the highligh of which was a night at the Beijing Hard

The Zhong Gwo don't care what religion you are, or your skin color, your ethnicity, your nationality and the like, The Zhong Gwo are certain they have the natural right to control you and your life. So you need to do something radical: think of yourself as an honorary Uighur, or a German Jew in the 1930's. Can you do that?

An honorary Uighur, that'd be an honour...it's strange and irrational that the Han Chinese consider themselves so great, but are dependent on (stealing from) the west for their survival. Same goes with Koreans, Japs, etc...all of these Asian people seem brain-washed to think of themselves as the Superior Race.

Anyways, I'd take cultural domination by the Chinese over psychotic tyranny of an Islamofascist any day of the week. Chinese don't seem to assimilate so well into the west (or anywhere), but also don't impose their rule like the Muslims are compelled to by the Holy Book.

All this is irrelevant to the original topic, though, so I'll leave it at that.

Catch up on modern history, the CCP is just as ruthless & oppressive as any Islamic dictatorship for any who oppose them or when imposing their rule i.e. Tibet

[Publicus]

Steely Dan, on 17 Mar 2013 - 13:45, said:

Publicus, on 17 Mar 2013 - 01:19, said:
If cultural dominance by the Han were to occur - a highly unlikely development - you would get the CCP's political opression and repression; you would get the party's indoctrination from birth, through all the grades of school/college and from the mass media, family, relatives, friends etc. You would be a clone of the CCP. People would press your button and you'd recite verbatum the complete party line

You really gotta get a better wish list.

I think you are in danger of conflating culture with ideology. Chinese culture is centuries old and contains much that is good along with the not so good. Communism is an ideology, and the CCP at least would claim to act based on said ideology. Chinese people in Taiwan, or anywhere else in the world cause little problem and seem to discard communism like they would an old sock. Islam is both a religion and a political ideology. Should the Uighur want to follow their own religion and culture and let others do likewise then good luck to them. If however they act based on an ideology that tolerates no other then coexistence will be a big problem, history will eventually pronounce on the western versus the Chinese approach to such issues.

The late Yippie Abbie Hoffman once made the accurate declaratory that "ideology is a brain disease." Chinese culture can continuously be traced back in time to, at the least, 5000 years ago. (I urge you to stay with me on this.) The one constant of Chinese culture is dictatorship: From the early warlords of the feuding states, to the first emperor Qin Shi Huang, to the first dynasty of emperors and onwards to all of the many dynasties of emperors, all were absolute, arbitrary dictators.

The imperial dynasties collapsed in the early 20th century, succeeded by a gang of CCP ideologues in Mao jackets carrying copies of Das Capital. In the CCP's PRC, East meets West, i.e., the early 20th century Chinese turned to a mid-19th century European, German Jew who wrote about capitalism in its most rudementary of stages. Mao's dictator-ideologues in turn were succeeded by Deng Xiaoping's new emperor-ideologues in business suits and ties. So the Chinese have staggered from Qin (chin) the dictator to Mao the dictator-ideologue, who was succeeded by Deng the dictator-ideologue, right up to the present dictator-ideologue, Xi Jinping (she). In China culture meets ideology and both snuggle comfortably together.

The crusader-era ideology of radical Islam is as reactionary as the 5000 year old culture of the Chinese and their love of dictatorship.

Ideology is a brain disease; culture is created by the people of a given place. Edited March 20, 2013 by Publicus

[Steely Dan]

Ideology is a brain disease; culture is created by the people of a given place.

Ain't that the truth. I recall travelling through Tibet with a Chinese girl and some westerners. The Chinese girl seemed very much how you would have expected an educated student to be, except when some subjects were touched on, such as the Chinese annexing of Tibet, you were then listening to a script, probably learnt verbatim. I know that English teachers there are told exactly what subjects are off limits and the great firewall of China controls the dialogue too. So how I wonder do you know whether someone has an ideology?

Reading your post I thought of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where the bottom of the pyramid are automatic metabolic functions. Then comes safety, your own survival on the next level, followed above that by love and family, then above that esteem, then self-actualization at the top. With ideologies you seldom get past the second tier of the pyramid. In other words the ideology ensures that even family don't compromise it, hence you have honor killings or reporting family members for thought crimes depending on the ideology in question.

I observed that Chinese people living outside China pretty quickly lose the ideology, but keep the culture, I suspect this is to do with the limits of control exerted by the CCP. The USSR was similar, save for a few high profile dissidents getting bumped off by KGB agents. I would venture Islamic ideology has a more powerful control mechanism, which is based partly on magical thinking based on the hereafter but also due to universal sanction against apostates and blasphemers etc, which transcends any national border.

I suspect there is a flaw with western liberal-left thinking, which concludes everyone will eventually act according to the same set of interests within a society (Maslow's heirarchy). However someone brought up within an ideology will, given specific circumstances, act in a completely unexpected manner.

Coming back to subject I hope the Uighurs keep their culture and avoid being caught up in a war of ideologies, my brother went on a tour of the Silk road and the Uighur lands, the photographs he brought back were breathtaking.

[maidu]

Chinese have a reputation (among other things) of having a v. strong economy. That's one reason (along with giant consumer base) that western countries are trying to depict their relationship with China as warm and fuzzy. In reality, the image of China having an iron-clad economy can be compared with the USSR's image of mega-strong military power, for the years leading up to the Berlin Wall taken down. It's an inflated image. The reality is; If you balance the million of China's well-off urbanites with the hundreds of millions of substenance level rural folk, you'll see a poor (and poorly run) country struggling to make ends meet - similar to USSR's inflated image of immense military might. I predict China's politburo and power structure will implode. When that happens, Tibetans and Uighurs (and others) will assert their demands to be independent. It won't be without messes, but right will triumph over wrong.

[Potosi]

Here's a link that constitutes a good summary of Beijing's takeover of the Uighur (wee-gur) people.

English sometimes is so unfit a language to produce the proper sounds. Uighur = Oo-e-ghoor. Not wee-gur. The Uighurs would have no idea you address them.

[Scott]

I think we will stick to the topic and not linguistics. If a word is difficult for foreigners to pronounce, you would be surprised how quickly people can learn what the people are referring to.

[Publicus]

Chinese have a reputation (among other things) of having a v. strong economy. That's one reason (along with giant consumer base) that western countries are trying to depict their relationship with China as warm and fuzzy. In reality, the image of China having an iron-clad economy can be compared with the USSR's image of mega-strong military power, for the years leading up to the Berlin Wall taken down. It's an inflated image. The reality is; If you balance the million of China's well-off urbanites with the hundreds of millions of substenance level rural folk, you'll see a poor (and poorly run) country struggling to make ends meet - similar to USSR's inflated image of immense military might. I predict China's politburo and power structure will implode. When that happens, Tibetans and Uighurs (and others) will assert their demands to be independent. It won't be without messes, but right will triumph over wrong.

Yes, the CCP's PRC economy has a huge real estate bubble which, when it bursts will be epically ugly and devastating. The state owned banking system long has been making terrible loans which, as the CCP loves to say, don't become non-performings loans until you call them in (so, of course, the loans are both never called in or never paid). Chinese aged up to round 35 detest that the CCP malgoverns absent all accountability to anyone except themselves, and that the corrupt do take care of themselves.

The CCP-PRC system is corrupt, however, much worse is the fact that corruption is the system. The young Chinese know this and they want heads to roll in Beijing and in the provincial capitals. The reaction of the Boyz in Beijing is to spend more on internal security than on the military. During my recent time in the PRC several of my university students asked me if I would sponsor them in the United States after the inevitable first uprising, which they seen not far on the horizon. I of course said yes. However, I said I should think the CCP would be pleased to see those angrily dissatified with the CCP leave China. The students said to me that the CCP will insist on killing everyone who ever attempts to rise against it, chashing their own Chinese youth to the ends of the earth if need be to kill them.

It was then I realized the CCP will not hesitate to kill 100,000,000 Chinese if that becomes necessary to continue to preserve itself it power and to control the new wealth of the 500,000,000 who are participating in the new bogus economy.

[ZhouZhou]

simple1, on 17 Mar 2013 - 07:28, said:

Catch up on modern history, the CCP is just as ruthless & oppressive as any Islamic dictatorship for any who oppose them or when imposing their rule i.e. Tibet

but both are not as bad as the times when tibet was under the rule of the feudal clerics.

[simple1]

simple1, on 17 Mar 2013 - 07:28, said:

Catch up on modern history, the CCP is just as ruthless & oppressive as any Islamic dictatorship for any who oppose them or when imposing their rule i.e. Tibet

but both are not as bad as the times when tibet was under the rule of the feudal clerics.

Your comment did motivate me to do a quick bit of research & came across the URL below that in part criticises westerners "romantic" view of Tibet prior to the Chinese annexation. I guess it comes down to your opinion on the least brutal oppressor.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism

Edited March 25, 2013 by simple1

[Publicus]

simple1, on 17 Mar 2013 - 07:28, said:

Catch up on modern history, the CCP is just as ruthless & oppressive as any Islamic dictatorship for any who oppose them or when imposing their rule i.e. Tibet

but both are not as bad as the times when tibet was under the rule of the feudal clerics.

Your comment did motivate me to do a quick bit of research & came across the URL below that in part criticises westerners "romantic" view of Tibet prior to the Chinese annexation. I guess it comes down to your opinion on the least brutal oppressor.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism

My view of the Chinese in Tibet is hardly the Guardian's construct that those of us who reject China's ruthless aggression there dream of a previous Tibetan paradise. Shangra La isn't such a hot place either.

The Han as the CCP forcably entered and took control of both (resource rich) Tibet and Xinjiang. The Chinese however assert proudly that they are bringing "civilization" to the barbarian "devils." While the neocons were in power in Washington they barged militarily into Iraq, however, even the neocons asserted that the United States military would pursue an immediately short term mission, then leave, which is what in fact happened (even if not quite as the neocons had envisaged). On the contrary, the Han as the CCP intend not only to occupy Tibet and Xinjiang, but to remake both as a unitary extension of a permanent Chinese civilization, at the core of which for 5000 years is the imperative of absolute rule, i.e., dictatorship. Dictatorship is the model of ancient civilization; democracy is the model of modern and future civilization, which makes the Chinese in their raw aggression a reactionary civilization, dangerous and menacing to the progress of humankind.

There isn't anything romantic in respect to any of this.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Publicus

[maidu]

simple1, on 17 Mar 2013 - 07:28, said:

Catch up on modern history, the CCP is just as ruthless & oppressive as any Islamic dictatorship for any who oppose them or when imposing their rule i.e. Tibet

but both are not as bad as the times when tibet was under the rule of the feudal clerics.

Let me guess: ZZ has been influenced by Beijing's spin on history. Beijing, via textbooks and all other means at their disposal, has been frantically trying to paint pre-Chinese Tibet as woefully miserable. Not at all true. Tibet was primitive leading up to the 1950's but no more so than 3/4 of the world's countries at that time. People were generally content, singing in the fields while tending to barley fields or their animals. China's depiction of Tibet is perfectly in line with their clenched-fist possessiveness of the place. Probably the best a person could do who wants to find the truth of pre-Chinese invasion Tibet, is go to Dharamsala where the Tibetan Gov't in exile is - and talk with old-timers there who used to reside in Tibet. They will tell you the truth of the matter. It's no use trying to talk to Tibetans in Tibet, because you could be endangering them just by being seen talking to them. Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make. Also, hundreds of Tibetan monks and nuns are rotting in prison for daring to speak out, or for even just carrying a little photo of the Dalai Lama. Let's respect their sad struggle.

[Steely Dan]

I believe Tibet was indeed a feudal system in a manner of speaking. Indeed Tibet is a land of extremes. The most pious have been known to crawl on hands and knees circuiting the Potala Palace seven times whilst pushing a marble along with their noses The terrain makes for a hard life, which was no picnic for the serfs who worked the land.

But this is all aside from the point, the Chinese didn't invade Tibet to rescue the masses and any after the fact justification based on life pre-1950 does not pass muster.

[ZhouZhou]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right?

besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style.

http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

[Scott]

A post with an inappropriate reference to a title has been deleted.

[maidu]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right? besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

Let's assume you hail from a certain region in the world, where there are deep thousand year old cultural traditions, your own language, myths, religion, currency, postage stamps, etc. Then all of a sudden, an army comes over the horizon and, through military might and overwhelming numbers, takes over. They destroy as much of your culture as possible (Mao's kids destroying temples and 1,000-yr-old thankas, etc), and they shoot or imprison any locals (mostly peasants and monks) who show any distaste for the occupiers. Later, they bring in thousands of low-lander Han Chinese per week by buses and railroad - thereby outnumbering the locals. Would you not want to grab a gun and fight against the occupiers? I sure would.

[ZhouZhou]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right? besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

Let's assume you hail from a certain region in the world, where there are deep thousand year old cultural traditions, your own language, myths, religion, currency, postage stamps, etc. Then all of a sudden, an army comes over the horizon and, through military might and overwhelming numbers, takes over. They destroy as much of your culture as possible (Mao's kids destroying temples and 1,000-yr-old thankas, etc), and they shoot or imprison any locals (mostly peasants and monks) who show any distaste for the occupiers. Later, they bring in thousands of low-lander Han Chinese per week by buses and railroad - thereby outnumbering the locals. Would you not want to grab a gun and fight against the occupiers? I sure would.

so pogroms are good?

furthermore if that would be a valid description of what happen then you should be outraged at some many other similar occurrences all over the world that could easily described in a similar agitated way.

[Potosi]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right? besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

Let's assume you hail from a certain region in the world, where there are deep thousand year old cultural traditions, your own language, myths, religion, currency, postage stamps, etc. Then all of a sudden, an army comes over the horizon and, through military might and overwhelming numbers, takes over. They destroy as much of your culture as possible (Mao's kids destroying temples and 1,000-yr-old thankas, etc), and they shoot or imprison any locals (mostly peasants and monks) who show any distaste for the occupiers. Later, they bring in thousands of low-lander Han Chinese per week by buses and railroad - thereby outnumbering the locals. Would you not want to grab a gun and fight against the occupiers? I sure would.

I wouldn't. I would sit back and check whether China's claim over Tibet is legit, and they actually owned it for many centuries in the past. Interrupted by periods of independence, Mongol rule, Sikh and British invasions. Then I would contemplate if I would like to live in the dark age with yaks for currency, and everything tuned for religion, or if I enjoy the stuff that came with the Han. Electricity, education, roads, hospitals, jobs, opportunities, wealth, twice the life expectancy. Did Mao's kids destroy all temples, and shoot or imprison all the locals? I don't think so. Plenty of temples were restored, and Tibetan customs are alive. The shipping of Han to Tibet wasn't a genocide either, they had qualified jobs to fill. The Tibetans were either monks or peasants, they couldn't do it from the start.

[simple1]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right? besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

Let's assume you hail from a certain region in the world, where there are deep thousand year old cultural traditions, your own language, myths, religion, currency, postage stamps, etc. Then all of a sudden, an army comes over the horizon and, through military might and overwhelming numbers, takes over. They destroy as much of your culture as possible (Mao's kids destroying temples and 1,000-yr-old thankas, etc), and they shoot or imprison any locals (mostly peasants and monks) who show any distaste for the occupiers. Later, they bring in thousands of low-lander Han Chinese per week by buses and railroad - thereby outnumbering the locals. Would you not want to grab a gun and fight against the occupiers? I sure would.

so pogroms are good?

furthermore if that would be a valid description of what happen then you should be outraged at some many other similar occurrences all over the world that could easily described in a similar agitated way.

How about clarifying if you support the PLA occupation with 40,000 troops of Tibet in 1950. By any definition it was an act of aggression under international law. Ever since the Tibetan people have been deliberately homogenised into Chinese society by the CCP in an endeavour to destroy all aspects of Tibetan identity. Discussing other conflicts will be deleted by the mods as off topic.

[maidu]

Over 100 Tibetans have immoliated themselves in the past year because they want their country and their leader back. That's the most severe statement anyone can make.

Sounds like a serious case of religious brainwashing, right? besides killing themselves in such dramatic ways, they attack also violently Han Chinese people living there. pogrom style. http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2012/03/21/tibet-s-suicidal-politics/

Let's assume you hail from a certain region in the world, where there are deep thousand year old cultural traditions, your own language, myths, religion, currency, postage stamps, etc. Then all of a sudden, an army comes over the horizon and, through military might and overwhelming numbers, takes over. They destroy as much of your culture as possible (Mao's kids destroying temples and 1,000-yr-old thankas, etc), and they shoot or imprison any locals (mostly peasants and monks) who show any distaste for the occupiers. Later, they bring in thousands of low-lander Han Chinese per week by buses and railroad - thereby outnumbering the locals. Would you not want to grab a gun and fight against the occupiers? I sure would.

I wouldn't. I would sit back and check whether China's claim over Tibet is legit, and they actually owned it for many centuries in the past. Interrupted by periods of independence, Mongol rule, Sikh and British invasions. Then I would contemplate if I would like to live in the dark age with yaks for currency, and everything tuned for religion, or if I enjoy the stuff that came with the Han. Electricity, education, roads, hospitals, jobs, opportunities, wealth, twice the life expectancy. Did Mao's kids destroy all temples, and shoot or imprison all the locals? I don't think so. Plenty of temples were restored, and Tibetan customs are alive. The shipping of Han to Tibet wasn't a genocide either, they had qualified jobs to fill. The Tibetans were either monks or peasants, they couldn't do it from the start.

Sounds like you've also been taken hook, line and sinker by Chinese State propaganda a.k.a. 'revisionist history.' Perhaps Mao's ravaging kids didn't destroy ALL temples, but they sure destroyed as much as they could get to - much of which is irreplaceable. They and their descendants also destroyed countless Tibetan lives and families. Do some research fellows - other than highly effective revisionist pap smear which emanates from Beijing - and you might find some truth in the matter.

As for primitive - who makes that judgement, and is that grounds for a bigger stronger country to go and conquer another? Over half the countries in Africa are primitive, does that justify China going in there and taking over? Actually they are doing that somewhat with their lust for raw materials.