Street Harassment

[MiG16]

I hope you dont have to run into him again, but if you do, get a photo with your phone

but be sure you do it discreetly. you dont want to be antagonising the man when you are by yourself and no one near by that you can shout out for help to.

definitely report him whether you manage to get a photo or not. make sure you tell the police it has happened on more than one occasion. ask them if they can patrol the area at certain hours

if you live in or near a compound (mooban) let the security there know, and ask them to keep their eyes out for the man

talk to people in your neighbourhood

change your route. change the times you leave and return home

get one of those loud alarm things

carry an umbrella which you can use to push him to a distance if he tries to get too near

all the best

[candypants]

Thank you so much Boo. I've not seen pepper spray being sold here but obviously I wasn't looking for it. Where can I find it and do you know the Thai word for it?

Thanks again.

be aware that the legality of pepper spray is uncertain, despite the fact that it is readily available. look for weapons stalls at markets, even some pharmacies have been known to stock it.

id probably go for it though, but use it carefully as has been said, blowback can be a bitch.

[HeavyDrinker]

I would NOT advocate any form of confrontation on your part here at all and find it disturbing that so many are suggesting it.

You are right away putting yourself in the wrong. The guy could (and probably would) plead all innocence and could easily put you in the mire.

Go to colleagues and then to the police and see where that gets you but for the love of God do NOT take matters into your own hands.

Get some of Kurnell's lads to walk a few yards behind you and let them do sort it out Thai style, but don't put yourself in a position where you may get a whole heap of sh*t landing on your head.

[NancyL]

My heart goes out to the OP -- as they say "been there done that", but the venue was Washington D.C., where I was a 16 year old whiz-kid political geek know-it-all who snared an appointment as an intern. Boy, did the street harrasers bring me back to an ugly reality.

Pepper spray (actually Mace) became my friend. Practice with the stuff and report troubling situations before you use the sa-pray. This is why everyone is saying to document the perp, get as many details as possible and report the situation to the police. That way, when the pervert comes to the police complaining about YOU, you can show who was really in the wrong. Maybe the police can give you advise about self-protection when you file a complaint -- they did when I was in Washington, D.C., both "on the record" and "off the record" advise.

Unfortunately, what worked the best for me was having a guy walk with me. It was a real PITA to try to have male friends walking with me and often I'd buy them a meal or something to have an incentive to hang out with me. Also, I had many fewer problems when I was riding a bicycle, but unfortunately the bicycle died around week 4 and I never was able to replace it.

Edited March 13, 2013 by NancyL

[ragamuffin]

Are you alright today?

[dgm102]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's been very very helpful. By way of an update, I spoke to the only Thai person I know, who happens to be the daughter of a very influential Thai personality. She mentioned this incident to her father and he contacted two police officers who came to see me today. We went to talk to the neighbours and people in the soi to ask them to keep an eye on suspicious behaviour. Then went to the police station to file a report and the police told me that they'll send two undercover officers on the days I go out to follow me and see if anything happens.

That they took it more or less "seriously" is reassuring, but still I think I'll go for the pepper spray because I just cannot have someone with me 24/7, and not even at the times and days I normally go out as most people I know are already at work. Thanks again to everyone who took time to read this post and reply, I feel better now!

[Boo]

well that's about a good a result as any could expect from the boys in brown tbh but at least you have someone with a bit of clout behind you.

Heavy drinker, no one is suggesting she go out looking for this guy & start a fight but she has a life & should not stop living it because someone has become fixated on her. My suggestion for pepper spray & a baton is sensible, if, whilst living her life this idiot tries something again then she is prepared & can defend herself enough to get to safety, I have no doubt that this will escalate as in 2 days he went from verbal to physical harassment so arming herself will give her a fighting chance to come away unharmed.

[VocalNeal]

Be very careful with pepper spray as you have to be aware of the wind direction.

[HeavyDrinker]

well that's about a good a result as any could expect from the boys in brown tbh but at least you have someone with a bit of clout behind you.

Heavy drinker, no one is suggesting she go out looking for this guy & start a fight but she has a life & should not stop living it because someone has become fixated on her. My suggestion for pepper spray & a baton is sensible, if, whilst living her life this idiot tries something again then she is prepared & can defend herself enough to get to safety, I have no doubt that this will escalate as in 2 days he went from verbal to physical harassment so arming herself will give her a fighting chance to come away unharmed.

So you saying if she fires pepper spray in his face, it isn't confrontational.

Your advice was ludicrous.

You seriously have little or no understanding of life here in Thailand if you think that telling a single Western female to attack a Thai male, or even to 'fight back' is good advice.

[Boo]

why does it always have to come down to how much time someone has spent in Thailand? really, that particular pissing contest is just pointless with me as I'm pretty sure my number surpasses most people on this forum. Regardless I traveled alone around Thailand & other parts of the world for years so am well placed to advise a lone woman on how to protect herself.

Do you not agree that the op should be prepared enough to protect herself or use defensive tactics should this person assault her again?

What is your advice for her? Become a recluse, avoid having a life, cower in fear, let herself be assaulted?

OP has stated she has no colleagues or friends to help out so it's her or no one. She has already reported this to the police so if she does end up in a confrontation with him it is on record. The police have also offered to send a couple of undercovers to follow her so even though you ignored the part advising the op to go to the police, she has had quite a good result which hopefully will result in the police witnessing him harassing her & scaring him off.

[HeavyDrinker]

What is your advice for her? Become a recluse, avoid having a life, cower in fear, let herself be assaulted?

No Boo. My advice is to let the Thais sort it out for her as I posted above.

I meant no offence nor do I want to get into a pissing contest but to suggest that she tries to deal with this off her own back through aggression is ridiculous.

It shows a lack on knowledge of how Thai males think - and how they would respond to such action; and is frankly highly irresponsible.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HeavyDrinker

[Boo]

I've been married to a thai man for 13 years so I actually do know how they think ( actually no one knows how "they" think as "they" are all individuals so will all react differently but anyway) but the op still has to live her life.

Any thai people she might know, which by her own admission is very few, can't follow her around at 24/7 so she needs to be able to handle this alone. She can't bargain or reason with him as she can't speak thai & he probably wouldn't take notice anyway which leave physical self defense. If this person attacks her & she has pepper spray & a baton, she has a very good chance of walking away unharmed, without what are her options?

[HeavyDrinker]

Her options are to tell her neighbours/colleagues/police that some freak is chasing her down the road each day with his knob out, and let them sort the <deleted> out.

It's that easy. But to attack him, to be the aggressor,...the boot is on the other foot and then she could be in the wrong...it's a stupid suggestion and you should revoke it at once.

[Boo]

i will just point out that every woman on this thread has said the same thing, get pepper spray, learn how to use it & defend yourself if necessary. None of us have said to go looking for him but have all agreed that if he does it again the op needs to be able to defend herself.

This is basic common sense, I don't know a single person, male or female, who having this happen to them would not then improve their self defense abilities in some way.

[Boo]

Her options are to tell her neighbours/colleagues/police that some freak is chasing her down the road each day with his knob out, and let them sort the <deleted> out.

It's that easy. But to attack him, to be the aggressor,...the boot is on the other foot and then she could be in the wrong...it's a stupid suggestion and you should revoke it at once.

I've not said the op should attack him. I have advised the op to arm herself & if he attempts to assault her again to defend herself. They are different things entirely.

OK I just re-read my first post & see where you think I suggested attacking him, this was not my intention, my post was in relation to if he attacked her again but can see that wasn't clear.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Boo
clarity

[wooloomooloo]

I've been groped in BKK, and I'm a man. Mace, 9mm calibre pistol, baton, Taser and knuckle duster at the ready for the gamins.

[HeavyDrinker]

I understand that Boo, but no-one has told her to use it as a last line,

She needs to 'nip this in the bud' as it were, and the only way this will happen is to get the 'law' - be it the Police, the local lads,Kurnell's boys or whomever..

Her spraying pepper spray around will only lead to sorrow...

[2unique]

I must admit I hate to advocate violence whether the OP be male or female. Yes buy pepper spray to keep in reserve but perhaps buy a whistle first.

Where you live is hardly the country side - whistle and scream pervert (lahmok) while backing away - if he comes at you pepper spray his eyes, at least you'll have witnesses.

The last thing you want to do is escalate the situation particularly with you being quite vulnerable. Hopefully the "whistleblowing" will see him slink away however if he shows a violent nature it probably wont stop at him being pepper sprayed. As you do live/travel alone you could pray for him to accidentally break both legs while you're at home knitting.

[sbk]

Thailand is not a culture that intervenes, some may consider it a "domestic" and ignore it if she were to scream, hence the rising number of incidents of violence against women in this country. Last year I recall a report saying 3 incidents an HOUR involving women or children were reported in Bangkok.

Studies and interviews with rapists have shown that in general f the woman is too much trouble they will run away, if she fights back and screams and makes it too difficult. They are after the victim mentality, this goes for flashers as well.

As for the men who want to tell me I don't understand Thai men, err after 24 years with one I do better than you ever will, so please don't bother.

OP, if you appear scared or like a victim he will come after you. If you make it clear you are not a victim and make it clear to him that his actions will get him in trouble then he will most likely back off. Not 100% but its certainly better than living in fear cowering around the corners. Sorry but I don't think that is any life for anyone.

Since the police have already agreed to follow her around (well done for having a good connection OP), which I would take them up on, this may just do the trick. Bullies are just that, bullies. Show them that you will not be bullied and usually they will go find someone else weaker than you to pick on.

[dgm102]

I hate having to bring gender into the equation but actually harassment IS about gender dynamics, here and everywhere else. About whether carrying pepper spray or any other kind of weapon is a good idea or not, I think many males can simply not put themselves in the situation, because they are not women! After all, how many times a psycho has followed a guy with his dick out and tried to grope you? You can imagine how it feels I'm sure, but the again you cannot, really.

Good that the police says they'll send someone, but this is not over yet as I'm sure the perv will try again, it's just been a coincidence that these days I've not walked much because of the heat, and also I'll be going away for 2 weeks tomorrow, but things can still happen, and do I have to rely on the police to sort it out for me?? I think that still shows an ever greater lack of knowledge about Thailand. I'll not go out hunting him down (although in all honesty that's what I'd want to do) as I understand the dangers, but I have a right to defend my physical integrity when others can't. Could that potentially lead to trouble (as in what? ending up in jail for spraying this idiot? being thrown out of the country? Him retaliating and bringing his mates over?) Ok, so be it. It's called life and it's tough, more when you are a female on your own. It's a risk but as things are now the risk is there anyway.

By the way, although I haven't been here for long I can speak Thai, I think I managed to explain what happened to the police although I needed some help at times. I'm sure the psycho picked on me because he assumed "young foreigner living alone, no speaking Thai, won't complain". I was just so shocked when it happened that the words didn't come to me. The one thing I cannot yet do is give shit in Thai, so how do you say "<deleted> off"???

Edited March 15, 2013 by dgm102

[teacher17]

I understand that Boo, but no-one has told her to use it as a last line,

She needs to 'nip this in the bud' as it were, and the only way this will happen is to get the 'law' - be it the Police, the local lads,Kurnell's boys or whomever..

Her spraying pepper spray around will only lead to sorrow...

There is a difference between attacking someone and defending yourself....you are not a woman, I presume? So, no, you don't know what it's like to walk around and at times, feel intimidated or harassed. She already told the police...but if they don't keep their word to help her, she will have to find ways to keep herself safe. It's not practical to have someone with her at all times. She can't stop living life...so yes, pepper spray is a good option, as is learning self defense, etc. I don't understand how pepper spray will lead to sorrow...it would probably lead to her attackers eyes hurting like heck if he ever tries to do this again!!

[teacher17]

I hate having to bring gender into the equation but actually harassment IS about gender dynamics, here and everywhere else. About whether carrying pepper spray or any other kind of weapon is a good idea or not, I think many males can simply not put themselves in the situation, because they are not women! After all, how many times a psycho has followed a guy with his dick out and tried to grope you? You can imagine how it feels I'm sure, but the again you cannot, really.

Good that the police says they'll send someone, but this is not over yet as I'm sure the perv will try again, it's just been a coincidence that these days I've not walked much because of the heat, and also I'll be going away for 2 weeks tomorrow, but things can still happen, and do I have to rely on the police to sort it out for me?? I think that still shows an ever greater lack of knowledge about Thailand. I'll not go out hunting him down (although in all honesty that's what I'd want to do) as I understand the dangers, but I have a right to defend my physical integrity when others can't. Could that potentially lead to trouble (as in what? ending up in jail for spraying this idiot? being thrown out of the country? Him retaliating and bringing his mates over?) Ok, so be it. It's called life and it's tough, more when you are a female on your own. It's a risk but as things are now the risk is there anyway.

By the way, although I haven't been here for long I can speak Thai, I think I managed to explain what happened to the police although I needed some help at times. I'm sure the psycho picked on me because he assumed "young foreigner living alone, no speaking Thai, won't complain". I was just so shocked when it happened that the words didn't come to me. The one thing I cannot yet do is give shit in Thai, so how do you say "<deleted> off"???

My thai boyfriend told me to say "bpai hai pon" which means <deleted> off... Sorry, not sure if that's the correct spelling....couldn't find it on thai translation

Agree 100%. Many of you (no offense, ok,) think like a man (well, because you are men,) and think that women shouldn't go out and protect themselves...which really, is not practical. We have the right (just like men) to defend ourselves. I also agree with SBK, in that, a whistle may not work...because many men don't get involved physically here. Have you seen the video of that Thai man berating the Thai women over her car? Although, there ARE many Thai men I know who wouldn't hesitate to get involved...but you could end up in a place where there aren't many people around. So...I still think pepper spray is the best option. A whistle is good to have as well.

Anyway, good for you for taking this to the police! Hopefully they do something about it.

[Kilgore Trout]

I live on my own in the outskirts of Bangkok and never had a problem with this until now, so I'm very shocked about what happened. Yesterday as I was walking to the bus stop I saw this guy on a motorbike who was hanging out around the soi corner. When I walked past he pulled his pants and underwear down and something like "hey you". I ignored it and kept walking, then he started the bike and kept stopping every few meters with his fly open. I yelled at him "what are you doing?" in Thai and next thing I know is he disappears, until he comes on his bike from behind me and grabs my butt. By that time I'd reached the bus stop and got on the first bus I saw.

Then today I saw the same guy, again on the motorbike, he kept driving along and saying something in what he probably thinks it's English but it's not, I couldn't understand him anyway. To get to the bus stop I have to go up a footbridge, and as I was going up the stairs, someone was coming down, but I didn't realise it was him until he grabbed me again quite violently. I picked up an empty glass bottle and threw it at him, unfortunately it didn't do much damage. What unnerves me is that somehow he KNEW I had to go up that bridge, went all the way there, parked his bike, and went up the bridge to cross his path with mine. So I'm thinking maybe he's been following me?? It's quite scary.

Where do I stand here? If this happens again I'd feel very inclined to get physically violent against him but I guess as a foreigner and a woman I don't have a chance if the police gets involved. And what if he gets some other skunk involved too? I really don't know what to do and I don't want to put my safety at risk. I'd appreciate any suggestions you can make.

Im sure many on here would say that because it never happened to them it must be your fault

I sympathize with you though

Take a picture and make a police report

Edited March 15, 2013 by Kilgore Trout

[ragamuffin]

I'm a youngish female in Bangkok myself if you'd like to meet up and go out sometime .

[cougar]

If you live on your own an and you don't have any influential or tough Thai friends it's a pretty difficult situation. Mostly, don't show any weakness, this is what he's looking for. You should certainly report it to the police, just so you have something on record if the worst happens. After that it depends on you. Mostly I would just say move. You could take a confrontational approach, but that's always risky wiv Thais. You probably need to develop a better relationship with your neighbors, or move to an area where this is possible. Thais act in a collective fashion, and behaviour like this would be knelt upon pretty heavily if they felt you were part of their community. Your friends, neighbors should be coming down on this guy like a ton of bricks. You obviously have an outsider image, you need to lose this and get integrated. As a single Farang woman you're looked on as loose, fair game, you need to change that perception. Would he do this to a Thai girl, I doubt it. He'd have her father, brothers, sisters tearing off his balls.

[Sheryl]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's been very very helpful. By way of an update, I spoke to the only Thai person I know, who happens to be the daughter of a very influential Thai personality. She mentioned this incident to her father and he contacted two police officers who came to see me today. We went to talk to the neighbours and people in the soi to ask them to keep an eye on suspicious behaviour. Then went to the police station to file a report and the police told me that they'll send two undercover officers on the days I go out to follow me and see if anything happens.

That they took it more or less "seriously" is reassuring, but still I think I'll go for the pepper spray because I just cannot have someone with me 24/7, and not even at the times and days I normally go out as most people I know are already at work. Thanks again to everyone who took time to read this post and reply, I feel better now!

Excellent that you did this. Unfortunately in Thailand being connected, or perecived to be connected, makes ALL the difference especially with police.

In my many years here I have had my share of problems and twice had to get some influential Thais run some interference for me, worked like a charm both times. Basically the perpetrators get the message "it's not on" and that's usually that. And the general community gets the impression you have some clout.

While Thai women certainly suffer their share of harrassment , assualt and outright rape (like women the world over) I find that farang women are subject to types of blatant misconduct that would rarely or ever occur to a Thai women. A certain type of man thinks he can get away with behavior that he wouldn't dare try with a Thai woman, or that being foreign you are a safe mark because you'll have no means of recourse. So the thing to do is correct that impression, as you have, and usually they back off.

Also feel free to enlist as many neighbors in your cause as you can. Appeal to the motherly instincts of the old ladies around. They can help a lot.

Lastly, aside from this immediate problem, it is just not a good idea to be living in Thailand with very few Thai friends or contacts. So make a special effort to start make friends with locals, especially around where you live. Do favors when you can, stop to chat, etc. It will pay off in the long run in many ways. Thai culture emphasizes inter-dependence and it is considered normal and acceptable to have friends and neighbors help out with all sorts of things,. Whereas western culture emphasizes independence more, making us hesitant to be a "burden" on others. That works OK in the West where there are better institutional protections, but here in Thailand it is all in knowing people.

[NoshowJones]

I would buy some pepper stray & a small baton from one of the street vendors then let him have it. I would also go to the local police station today with a thai friend to report him & even if they don't do anything you then have it on record when you pepper spray & beat the crap out of him, that he assulted you.

But that's just me, I am a reactionary type person & would never wait for this to escalate, he needs to be put out of action imo but others will probably be along to offer alternate advices.

Oh & if poster makes a comment about how the ops dresses or acts whilst walking to work I will be giving them a holiday.

Why don't you pay a couple of Thai guys about 2000 Baht each, give them both a hammer to use to put him in hospital for a very long time. All these broken bones and he won't be fit to go near you for a very long time, if ever.

[NoshowJones]

You can, but if you can get a photo of him it will help. Or might there have been any people who witnessed it or at least would know who he was, e.g. people living in the soi he drove by on? If you can find someone who knows who he is it will up the chances of the poice having a word with him.

Street harrassement is very common in Thailand but what you describe goes well beyond that into actual assault and the escalating nature of his behavior is indeed something to worry about. Do report it to police and also see if you can get some help from neighbors/Thai friends.

That's scary Sheryl, street harassment very common in Thailand? I thought not having that was one of the things Thailand had going for it. I have lived here for 7 years with no problem. I better buy some pepper spray.

[Boo]

I think as Sheryl said that if you are involved in your community then you run less risk of having any issues. I lived in one place for years & knew alot of people, male & female friends, people I said hello to every day but never ever spoke to, shop owners where I bought my stuff & on every occasion where I needed help, I got it from numerous quarters. But if like the op you have been quite isolated then you should take extra precautions.

Hopefully, now she has been around & made herself know to the community then she will continue to build personal connection to her neighbors & create a safety net for the future.

[HeavyDrinker]

POPULAR

Thailand is not a culture that intervenes,

It is but they do it their way. The ignorance of the Thai dynamic shown here makes me despair for some of you.

Most Thais would be horrified at this going on. While they wouldn't like to be *seen* to be doing anything, they'd sure as hell help to 'make something happen'.

In our area last year a Lao girl working in a nothing job was set on by 4 men coming out of a club. Luckily she managed to get away but the people she worked for were not going to let it lie. The attackers were hunted down like dogs and punished and pretty publicly too.

So please save your forum status as being 'expert' on Thailand when you are clearly not.