Of Men And Monks …

[David48]

Don't monks get free transportation in Thailand? Not airplanes but I think everything else like busses and Songthaw's right?

It seems there is a real range of monks. Very smiley ones with great energy to really colossal douche bags.

I guess its good to make the effort at least to refine oneself. Just think if they didn't study?

I asked that question to the gf when I saw one hopping into a taxi in Thailand.

Apparently they pay the same as everyone else if the meter gets turned on.

[David48]

Socks and sandals - OMB

Yep, socks and sandals.People wear them when they are cold, or whatever other reason . And don't forget, monks are people, too. You should check out some of the photos from the temples in England. They have sweatshirts sometimes to stay warm.

The smiley was there to indicate a lighthearted comment. My real issue with the monk's attire is that he seems to be carrying some sort of phallus under his left arm.

Nothing being carried. What they did do was to wrap their rode in different styles depending on weather they were hot or cool. Sometimes a bare shoulder, sometimes the full wrap. Was a windy day, so mostly a full wrap.

As for the phallus under his left arm ... I know where you are coming from ... but no, from the photo above, just the different approaches to the Robe Wrap.

Socks and sandals ... these guys had no idea where they were going and maybe he simply 'feels the cold' more then the older Monk. He also wore a beanie ... something I've seen a few times at Doi Suthep, Chiang Rai.

Referring to the comment below ... yep the phallic symbol described is given by the Monk sometimes.

There were presented in Thailand by the Monk, whose home we visited. Different story, different country, but hookedandhamma is correct

But not yesterday ... they made us a coffee on returning to the Temple as a thank you.

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[chris1dna]

David. What country I this temple in?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[David48]

What county is this David?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

In Australia ...

.

[David48]

As a reply to whose posters who are not believers ... fair enough ... I'm certainly not about to mount an argument to change your mind. I'm not a Buddhist, nor do I class myself as a Christian, certainly not Muslim. But I am a believer in the charitable work that is done.

Things and actions that build a sense of community, that build common bridges over what seemed insurmountable chasms.

Sure, there are examples of where each faith could be picked to pieces by either their philosophies, doctrines or, only too often, their flesh and blood representatives.

The Monks that Miss M and I had the pleasure of joining with yesterday showed themselves to be both great emissaries for their faith and good people in their own right. They were greatly humbled to be invited to be a tourist for an afternoon ... but were also good company with the stories they shared with Miss M. She didn't stop smiling nor laughing for most of the trip ...

The afternoon could have been a disaster ... but it wasn't. We treated them with the respect they rightfully deserve. For Miss M, that respect most likely based on her upbringing and religious belief and for me it was based on their high standing in their/our community.

... in the end they are also flesh and blood. Collectively we had a great time ...

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[FunFon]

Great story from the lucky country, good deed, pretty pics.

Completely OT but I love those linga amulets, referred to as "Plaht Khik" (not sure about the transliteration), kind of a male power version of the female fertility symbol, all pre-Buddhist stuff but incorporated into Thai Buddhism, especially in the southern Isaan very much in Khmer culture, and probably in other countries with overlapping ancient religious traditions.

If you buy one in Thailand you should take it to a temple to be purified and blessed, and if you want to carry it on you, have to wear it below your midsection, certainly not around your neck. Obviously if you're not around any Thais and don't believe in such superstitious nonsense do what you like with it, but it's kind of like sitting on a Buddha statue's head, once you know what's correct and are aware of millions of people that would be offended if they say your sacrilegious abuse, for me anyway I find it easier to go with the flow.

My favorite's on a key chain, have a collection of about 80 different animal-designs in brass, prefer that to the carved wood ones myself.

PS if I were in the OP situation, I'd probably have told the missus to spend the day with her friends and have a more relaxing day with the monks "just us guys". But then maybe they needed her to go along as a chaperone

[wayned]

Here's a short explanation of the penus amulets: http://www.soravij.com/showcase/penisworship/penisworship.html

My wife's father still wears one tied around his waist hanging over his private parts and he's in his late 70's and has had 5 children?

[villagefarang]

Your girlfriend sounds quite traditional and correct in her reluctance to socialize with monks. It is seen a bad form for a woman to be riding around in a car with a monk or doing anything with a monk for that matter. When monks are collected and driven to a ceremony outside the temple, it is always a man who picks them up.

Monks are also supposed to be dedicated to the disciplines of the religion and less attached to the material and social aspects of society. You could be seen as corrupting them, in a way. Then again they could be using the whole monk thing as a way to get a visa, so no real harm done.

In Thailand though, I would suggest you listen to your girlfriend if she insists that somethings are just not done.

So much to reply to and nowhere better to start with then VF's comments ...

My lady ... traditional Thai and practising Buddhist. Not uber religious ... but mainstream for want of a better definition.

I asked her about the comment you made about nor being driven around with a Monk in that car and her response was that ...

... both Monks sat in the back, I drove and she was the passenger in the front.

Due to the Monks friendly but respectful attitude, there were no real nervous moments. When the camera was handed from the Monk to Miss M for a photo, it was either passed through my hands or cradled in his cloth so no contact was made.

We didn't take them to a theme park or the ilk ... but to a National Park / Nature reserve ... it seemed fitting.

The Monks are the Temple Monks and live at the Temple 24/7. They are the spiritual guidance for the Thai Community in the City that I live so no ... their Visa is not a sham ... surprised that you would pen that comment ... without asking the whole story ...

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It sounds like, in this instance, going against the advice of your girlfriend led to a successful outcome. While you are still learning and growing in your relationship it may not always workout so well but an occasional bump in the cross-cultural road can be a great learning experience. Still she is in your country now so you get to take the lead and introduce her to new experiences. I am sure you are a great teacher and guide.

[Bluetongue]

Tis interesting the whole relationship with monks and how your partner's advice might go against your own "gut" feelings. I wanted to buy a motorbike early on in my life here. Me and the wife went to the abbott that we had used for all our life events and he advised that as I had just bought a car I should wait until next year, this was October. I waited about 3 weeks, then one day I cycled 8km over to the temple and arrived in an obvious lather. He gave me coffee and sat me in front of the fan. I proceeded to tell him that it was only a small bike to be used for local transportation and that I was a sensible and safe rider. After some other small chat I left. He got another monk, my nephew, to telephone his mother and tell her that I could buy the bike. On arrival home my wife and family who didn't know that I was going to the temple were very surprised by my actions and the outcome but no further objections. I just felt that as I wanted the bike it should be me that asked him, not my wife on my behalf.

I know that story is not relevant to the OP, my answer to that is I do not think Thai people are overly deferential to monks but that in some instances do tend to forget they are people too. I have taken monks anywhere from having their teeth fixed, to Bangkok to buy books for the wat, to forest temples and markets. I try to treat them normally after making sure that all due respect and custom is followed. Twice I have been pulled over by the BIB with monks in front seat. The first time was on the motorway with stuff in back of pickup - a no no apparently. He took one look at the monk and waved me on as he walked away. The monk said "gloouh pra". The second time similar. As long as you remember you have to feed them before twelve you can take them anywhere. Sometimes I have noticed they do not like being too public, like to just stay in the background a bit. They are quite comfortable going to other temples or touristy temples.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Bluetongue

[David48]

I know that story is not relevant to the OP, my answer to that is I do not think Thai people are overly deferential to monks but that in some instances do tend to forget they are people too.

I have taken monks anywhere from having their teeth fixed, to Bangkok to buy books for the wat, to forest temples and markets.

I try to treat them normally after making sure that all due respect and custom is followed.

Thanks Bluetounge ... excellent post as usual.

I just asked the gf again just now why she didn't want to ask the Monk for going sight-seeing/travel ... and she replied that she thought that 'it might be rude to ask them'. I actually thought that it might be that she felt shy ... but I was wrong.

Your comment that "I try to treat them normally after making sure that all due respect and custom is followed." was spot on for what I tried to achieve.

[David48]

Next week the Monks from the Temple have a less then pleasant event to attend to.

A larger town of 10,000, about 6 hours drive from where I live has had a hanging suicide.

A Farang husband of a Thai lady.

His restaurant business had gone belly up and was left with a load of debt.

There is no inference of foul play, nor confirmation that it was a Thai Restaurant ... could

be a pizza place for all I know ... but the Thai widow has asked the Monks to attend to the

house where the suicide occurred.

The Monk will be asked to perform a Ceremony to allow the allow the man's spirit to travel

onto his final destination. True followers believe that the Monk can communicate with the

spirit of the deceased and by the Monk making merit, the spirit can then complete his journey.

Means a 4am start for the Monks.

The large town has, I presume a small number of Thai's living there and I hope that she has

developed a larger group of friends who she can turn to after losing her husband.

If she hasn't ... it's going to be a long and lonely time for her.

[krisb]

Would love to see the pics David! Good friend of mine is a Luang por at the local temple. Great bloke, great tattoo artist who has done some great art for me, mostly free only they can't tattoo in color which is a shame. Love the Thai monks, lovely chaps, wouldn't be Thailand without em!

[David48]

Most of the photos are above.

But just to confirm that the event actually happened and was not some figment of an overly active imagination ... a photo of me and the Monks.

Sunnies added afterwards.

Just liked this photo

and

The balance of the photos are above in other posts.

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[Radar501]

A very interesting thread you started David.

My home town is Melbourne and there is a purpose-built Thai wat in Forest Hill. I have been there quite a few times, but not for several years, as I am now elsewhere.

I was there once at Songkran. Tossing water around is not quite as much fun when it is about 10 degrees celsius outside.

I don't think there is a huge community of Thais anywhere in Australia, even in Melbourne. The costs of running a temple must be substantial, more than what the locals can donate to keep services going.

Do you know if these Aussie wats get monetary support from back home in Thailand?

[David48]

The costs of running a temple must be substantial, more than what the locals can donate to keep services going.

Do you know if these Aussie wats get monetary support from back home in Thailand?

I know that they got financial support from the Main Sydney wat to get started ... but not privy on the finer points of their funding.

We make a modest donation (think $10 - $20) when we visit ... as do many of the others.

It's working at the moment.

They got a loan to initially buy the place ... so they jumped through the Banks hurdles ... so there must be something solid there.

[Robby nz]

I have hesitated to write this because this topic is about good times with monks and in the 7 years I have been in Thailand have only had personal experience of 2 bad instances of monks behavior

The first and worst was when the lady in the house next door to where we were staying died, she had lived alone and we had rarely seen her.

A few days after she died a monk turned up with 2 trucks and half a dozen helpers.

He opened the front door of the ladies house with a key and the helpers proceeded to bring out very nice looking furniture and load it on to the trucks.

We assumed at this point that she had left it to the temple.

Then a ute arrived and a man got out and started arguing with the monk who then made a phone call and a policeman arrived.

After more arguing the man went into the house and came out with 2 pictures, of monks, got back in his ute and left.

The helpers then filled the 2 trucks and with the monk also left.

My lady later talked to the people in the house on the other side of ours who had also been watching and they told her ' no the furniture had not been left to the temple'.

What in fact had happened was that the monk had been having an affair with the lady for the last 10 years and in that time he had bought her a lot of things.

It seems when she died the monk had turned up to claim all the things he had bought her.

The man in the ute was the ladies brother who was trying to stop the monk taking the things but had been sent packing by the policeman on threat of arrest.

I am sure that and the other that I wont go into, are isolated instances and no way reflect on monks in general but after having seen that, well it does make me think.

[David48]

Robby nz ... no worries ...

Seriously, thanks for sharing.

Everyone has different experiences. Mine are not better then yours ... just different.

If this thread just relies on my stories ... it dies a quick death.

I'd like to know others experiences and interactions ... good, bad or indifferent.

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[endure]

Posts discussing moderation have been removed. It might be an idea to re-read the forum rules you signed up to when you joined...

[simple1]

My wife was born and raised as a Thai Muslim. She became interested in Buddhism and started going to a Wat as at one time she was having some difficulties and wanted to explore Buddhism. She explained to me that at first she was impressed with one of the monks and how he guided her to experience some inner peace. As time went by she observed the selling/buying of blessing for success with things such as the lottery, including by the individual she originally respected. She became disillusioned and stopped visiting the Wat. It's sad as Buddhism has good practices and disciplines, but appears, at least in Thailand, many have deviated from it's core messages.

When in Australia my personal observation was that the Thai Buddhist monks at a house converted for use as a Wat in Sydney (Annandale) appeared to be good and caring people.

Edited March 13, 2013 by simple1

[Neeranam]

So, my question I would ask is ... do you think Thai people are unduly deferential

to monks and forget that they are people just the same as them?

No, I don't. However, I think many foreigners are.

[Dancealot]

So, my question I would ask is ... do you think Thai people are unduly deferential

to monks and forget that they are people just the same as them?

No, I don't. However, I think many foreigners are.

Could be, that some, would think this way.

I, however consider them a higher form of beings and will respect them whenever i can.

[David48]

My wife was born and raised as a Thai Muslim. She became interested in Buddhism and started going to a Wat as at one time she was having some difficulties and wanted to explore Buddhism. She explained to me that at first she was impressed with one of the monks and how he guided her to experience some inner peace. As time went by she observed the selling/buying of blessing for success with things such as the lottery, including by the individual she originally respected. She became disillusioned and stopped visiting the Wat. It's sad as Buddhism has good practices and disciplines, but appears, at least in Thailand, many have deviated from it's core messages.

When in Australia my personal observation was that the Thai Buddhist monks at a house converted for use as a Wat in Sydney (Annandale) appeared to be good and caring people.

Nice story above ...

I'm always curious to visit a new Temple in Thailand if the opportunity arises.

Sometimes the gf pulls me and says "No, don't go, not good feeling", or "is business like Temple' ... so I understand your comment above.

Good to see that you had a better experience in Sydney.

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[David48]

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To those member who live in Australia, does your partner attend the local Wat?

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[Robby nz]

Thanks David

I really did worry about posting that story on this topic.

Will post my other bad experience later.

I wonder, as you now have a good relationship with the monks if you could ask them if they have any expectations from their life as monks or if it is a way they see of helping people or what.

I really am curious about this as I could never imagine living a life under any strict religious order of any sort.

Simple 1

My wife was also brought up a Muslim but is now Buddhist, she also has a bible.

[macksview]

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To those member who live in Australia, does your partner attend the local Wat?

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my wife does not attend the wat/house in australia, her only trusted thai friend does attend.

the wife says bhudda is in her heart she does not need to go to a wat, when in thailand she rarely may travel with her father to a small forest temple in loei, he seems to favour the advice at that temple.

the local temple events she must make an appearance only, she rarely attends otherwise.

the wat/house in our city was virtually sponsored by one woman, she started out as 10 year old issan domestic for a wealthy bangkokian, became his mia noy and had a child to him, dont know the reason why she ended up here, maybe the rich man spread his mia noys around australia.

some local thai business people also are starting to contribute more to the wat, they have plans for a new temple, the wat crowd are the usual transplanted mix of ex-bargirls, uni students rich and middle class, and assorted odds similar to my wife.

[Rimmer]

A post in bad taste has been removed

[krisb]

She hasn't yet which is surprising to me. We only live 5 minutes away from the wat and I've asked if she wants to go but so far hasn't.

[David48]

She hasn't yet which is surprising to me. We only live 5 minutes away from the wat and I've asked if she wants to go but so far hasn't.

If it's not enquiring to much ... which Wat is that?

[geriatrickid]

So, my question I would ask is ... do you think Thai people are unduly deferential

to monks and forget that they are people just the same as them?

No, I don't. However, I think many foreigners are.

Could be, that some, would think this way.

I, however consider them a higher form of beings and will respect them whenever i can.

I see. Please explain how the mere act of becoming a monk magically transforms a man into a higher being. I am having trouble grasping how an uneducated and ignorant man would become a "higher form". How does donning a saffron robe and following a few rituals do this? I admit to being educated under the principles of the Protestant faith where all humans were considered as being equal before Providence. I find the egalitarian concept to be more appealing, but I also do appreciate the class system of Thailand because I am a beneficiary. I believe basic Judaism shares the same approach to conventional Protestant theology in that regard. However, both faiths, with the exception of some branches, also consider women have a place in the administration and teaching of the faith. I suggest to you that a theology that considers its clerics a "higher" form of life has a fatal flaw and perhaps this may explain why evangelical protestant theology is attracting so many converts in the developing world. It's nice to be able to be given hope and love in the present. I don;t have any use for it, but I can see why those that are suffering do. I also admit to a bias against the religious hierarchy of Thailand as I have yet to see monks as a group engage in true acts of faith, you know stuff like living a simple humble life, engaging in acts of kindness and the like. No argument , that becoming a monk helps some nasty people become a bit calmer, but ta transformation into a "higher" being, I think not.

By any chance were you exposed to the teachings of the RC church because there were generations of people that assumed the same thing happened with priests and we know what the result was when clerics were considered "superior".

The poor of latin America were promised a better life in heaven, sort of like in Thailand where acts of merit will get you a leg up in the next life. It certainly helped preserve the status quo of exploitation in Latin America for a couple centuries. Unfortunately, some of those radical people screwed it up with their provision of non sectarian education and preaching of basic human rights. we'd still be having the military running things in a nice orderly manner in Latin America and people like me having a grand old time if some people hadn't disrupted the "higher being" concept. Fortunately for Thailand's wealthy and elites, the "higher being" concept still holds sway. Lucky for me too as I wouldn't be treated as well as I am if some of these Thais didn't know their "place".

[Dancealot]

So, my question I would ask is ... do you think Thai people are unduly deferential

to monks and forget that they are people just the same as them?

No, I don't. However, I think many foreigners are.

Could be, that some, would think this way.

I, however consider them a higher form of beings and will respect them whenever i can.

I see. Please explain how the mere act of becoming a monk magically transforms a man into a higher being. I am having trouble grasping how an uneducated and ignorant man would become a "higher form". How does donning a saffron robe and following a few rituals do this? I admit to being educated under the principles of the Protestant faith where all humans were considered as being equal before Providence. I find the egalitarian concept to be more appealing, but I also do appreciate the class system of Thailand because I am a beneficiary. I believe basic Judaism shares the same approach to conventional Protestant theology in that regard. However, both faiths, with the exception of some branches, also consider women have a place in the administration and teaching of the faith. I suggest to you that a theology that considers its clerics a "higher" form of life has a fatal flaw and perhaps this may explain why evangelical protestant theology is attracting so many converts in the developing world. It's nice to be able to be given hope and love in the present. I don;t have any use for it, but I can see why those that are suffering do. I also admit to a bias against the religious hierarchy of Thailand as I have yet to see monks as a group engage in true acts of faith, you know stuff like living a simple humble life, engaging in acts of kindness and the like. No argument , that becoming a monk helps some nasty people become a bit calmer, but ta transformation into a "higher" being, I think not.

By any chance were you exposed to the teachings of the RC church because there were generations of people that assumed the same thing happened with priests and we know what the result was when clerics were considered "superior".

The poor of latin America were promised a better life in heaven, sort of like in Thailand where acts of merit will get you a leg up in the next life. It certainly helped preserve the status quo of exploitation in Latin America for a couple centuries. Unfortunately, some of those radical people screwed it up with their provision of non sectarian education and preaching of basic human rights. we'd still be having the military running things in a nice orderly manner in Latin America and people like me having a grand old time if some people hadn't disrupted the "higher being" concept. Fortunately for Thailand's wealthy and elites, the "higher being" concept still holds sway. Lucky for me too as I wouldn't be treated as well as I am if some of these Thais didn't know their "place".

So by your rationality i conclude you don't have any reason to respect a monk unless your are convinced other wise?

I disagree with you. I have faith in what any monks does and therefore respect them blindly.