Thailand's Tropical Gulag

[Waterloo]

As to what solutions there are to offer is anyone's guess....

Let me just add that I respect your interest and willingness to learn about the Kingdom of Pattani.

Stay cool.

Many happy returns Andrew!

Gentlemen as you appear to have called a truce, would you both be so kind as to point me in the right direction as to were on the internet I might be able to read a good potted history of the troubles in the south, I freely admitted to being almost totally ignorant on this subject, but would like to be better informed.

[smokie36]

Happy Birthday!

[the cougal]

Read Thongchai Winichakul: Siam Mapped University of Hawaii Press 1995. The fluctuating boundaries, and incorporations and losses of territory into what Thais like to think of as 'Thailand' has by no means been stable....There have been numerous meddling with concepts of borders, race, ethnicity on all of Thailand's so called borders for many a year; some by Europeans, some by Burmese, Lao, Khmer, Vietnamese and Malay interests..but imperial Thailand has fought pretty ruthlessly to secure what is perceived as the entity of 'Thailand'...not surprising that where language, culture and history confront that myth there is trouble.

[bonobo]

I am not an expert in the totality of the situation, but I have some experience in Naratiwat. In my friend's village, about 70 people have now been killed (out of about 600). The latest was last week when a young man was shot dead while riding his motorcycle. Rubber trees have been cut down, and prices offered to Buddhist farmers are about 10% of market. When another Muslim buyer offered to drive down from Hat Yai and buy for 75% of the market price, he and his son were shot and killed while coming down in their truck for a second load.

I have been in a home when rounds came in through the walls. I have seen signs posted that said, I was told, that all Buddhists have to sell their property or they will be killed. For the last two nights in this village, the soldiers have patrolled all night long while cutting off the electricity and making everyone stay inside. When my friend tried to buy something at a stall today, she was told to keep walking and come back in five minutes. The vendor didn't want to have a Buddhist hanging in front of her stall, so she wanted to get things ready for a quick transaction.

These are just some objective occurrences, You can draw your own conclusions as you will.

[HeavyDrinker]

As to what solutions there are to offer is anyone's guess....

Let me just add that I respect your interest and willingness to learn about the Kingdom of Pattani.

Stay cool.

>Many happy returns Andrew!

Gentlemen as you appear to have called a truce, would you both be so kind as to point me in the right direction as to were on the internet I might be able to read a good potted history of the troubles in the south, I freely admitted to being almost totally ignorant on this subject, but would like to be better informed.

Wouldn't we all? The fact is there is no 'potted history' really, however Wyatt pulls some of the basic strings concerning the root of the problem in the Colonial era....

There are plenty of opinions knocking around, but they are just that; Opinions, and not fact. However read first hand accounts such as those which have been posted here as to what is happening there now.

My advice to you though is to read what you can on the subject then 'read between the lines' as it were, and make your own conclusions...

[rene123]

A simple solution would be to give it all back to the Muslims and then fence off the entire area... both south on the Malaysian border and north on a Thai state that is not in contention, Then patrol the area by army with orders to shoot and kill anyone coming or going. Let them all go back to the stone ages if that is what they want. I know that is not practical, but it is what they deserve. I certainly wouldn't want to live in constant threat of a relatively minor group of terrorists.

Canada should have done the exact same thing to the radical French Canadians in Quebec. Call their bluff.

[bigbamboo]

A simple solution would be to give it all back to the Muslims and then fence off the entire area... both south on the Malaysian border and north on a Thai state that is not in contention, Then patrol the area by army with orders to shoot and kill anyone coming or going. Let them all go back to the stone ages if that is what they want. I know that is not practical, but it is what they deserve. I certainly wouldn't want to live in constant threat of a relatively minor group of terrorists.

Canada should have done the exact same thing to the radical French Canadians in Quebec. Call their bluff.

Hmm...........

Next?

[bonobo]

One thing I should add is that many of the Buddhists in Naratiwat have relatives living over the border in Malaysia. They don't seem to have any problems due to their religion and essentially enjoy their lives.

Referring to that, I have had more than one Buddhist say just cede the three provinces to Malaysia. They really don't care now if they are in Thailand or Malaysia, just that they are safe and can make a living. Their belief is that the Malaysian government could impose peace between the peoples of the region.

[marstons]

s

didn't see it yet, but Thaksin did surely a lot to make it worse. Of course it isn't his fault but he did a lot things that increased the problems.

He didn't really. His detractors like to think so, but in truth the insurgents were waiting for an excuse to flare up again and given the encouragement of 9/11 and later Bali, coupled with Thaksin's public siding with the US, they had a perfect excuse.

Thaksin's policies about the south are still somewhat ambiguous, therefore speculation of this nature are somewhat moot, not to say unhelpful.

I apologise for nutshelling things somewhat however to go into too much depth makes things dull, not only for the reader but also for me when I'd much rather be making 'fart gags' elsewhere on the internet.

Cheers!

The Bali Bombings of the Sari Club and Paddy's Bar happened before 9/11,not later,your facts are wrong!

check your facts at least before posting and making a complete ass of yourself, your dates are wrong 9/11 was before Bali

OP you are the chosen one on the ins and outs of Pattini, and contradiction of yourself.

[Waterloo]

Read Thongchai Winichakul: Siam Mapped University of Hawaii Press 1995. The fluctuating boundaries, and incorporations and losses of territory into what Thais like to think of as 'Thailand' has by no means been stable....There have been numerous meddling with concepts of borders, race, ethnicity on all of Thailand's so called borders for many a year; some by Europeans, some by Burmese, Lao, Khmer, Vietnamese and Malay interests..but imperial Thailand has fought pretty ruthlessly to secure what is perceived as the entity of 'Thailand'...not surprising that where language, culture and history confront that myth there is trouble.

Had a quick look on Amazon & Wikipedia, seems as good a place as any to start cheers

[Waterloo]

Heavey Drinker

Wyatt? please expand, as for the rest sounds like pretty sound advice for reading any history.

Would like to start with recognised authors before picking the bones out of a forum, too ignorant currently to take that line

[simple1]

Heavey Drinker

Wyatt? please expand, as for the rest sounds like pretty sound advice for reading any history.

Would like to start with recognised authors before picking the bones out of a forum, too ignorant currently to take that line

Plenty of background information available from authors who have resided in Thailand and studied the Deep South through to a study by Thai military officer

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/files/pubfiles/Liow_and_Pathan,_Confronting_ghosts_web.pdf

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/11/13/review-of-buddhist-fury-tlc-nmrev-xlvi/

http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Staff/mccargo-map-national-anxieties-rusi-09.pdf

http://www.slideshare.net/ikhwanng/history-and-politics-of-the-muslims-in-thailand

http://www.defence.g...d_Nurakkate.pdf

http://www.openbriefing.org/thinktank/publications/prospects-for-peace-in-thailands-deep-south/

[simple1]

A simple solution would be to give it all back to the Muslims and then fence off the entire area... both south on the Malaysian border and north on a Thai state that is not in contention, Then patrol the area by army with orders to shoot and kill anyone coming or going. Let them all go back to the stone ages if that is what they want. I know that is not practical, but it is what they deserve. I certainly wouldn't want to live in constant threat of a relatively minor group of terrorists.

Canada should have done the exact same thing to the radical French Canadians in Quebec. Call their bluff.

Suggest you familarise yourself with the ramifications of the Thai slogan "Nation, King, Religion" before posting such nonsense.

[mrtoad]

The OP claims to know "more about Pattani than anyone else on the forum".

I assume you were born and raised in Pattani andrew?

This is a Thai forum....having lived in Pattani for a while hardly qualifies "the man who knows nothing" to make such statements.

Please stop contradicting yourself.

I could have sworn that one of the Mods here is from Pattani, and I think they might have even been born there.

Anyone who claims to know more about something, than anybody else is not worth listening to.

[andrew]

The OP claims to know "more about Pattani than anyone else on the forum".

I assume you were born and raised in Pattani andrew?

This is a Thai forum....having lived in Pattani for a while hardly qualifies "the man who knows nothing" to make such statements.

Please stop contradicting yourself.

Wrong.

Let me try to help.

Socrates said that the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

This is because knowledge -- from a philosophical as well as practical viewpoint -- is infinite.

You and I cannot therefore claim to have amassed 50% of all knowledge. Equally, I cannot indulge in petty oneupmanship by saying that while you have amassed 25% of all knowledge, I am superior to you by virtue of my more impressive 26%.

Ultimately, we can only ever know nothing. A percentage or fraction of something which is infinite is an impossibility.

Hence it is that although I know considerably more than you, I still know nothing. There is no contradiction here.

One claim I can make, however, is that one of us may have studied PPE at Oxford and one of us may not have.

-------------------------

The real benefit of knowing that you know nothing lies in the retention of intellectual curiosity.

I am an artist with a permanently blank canvas. I am a child with a permanently enquiring mind.

----------------------

Deep, huh?

[Waterloo]

Heavey Drinker

Wyatt? please expand, as for the rest sounds like pretty sound advice for reading any history.

Would like to start with recognised authors before picking the bones out of a forum, too ignorant currently to take that line

Plenty of background information available from authors who have resided in Thailand and studied the Deep South through to a study by Thai military officer

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/files/pubfiles/Liow_and_Pathan,_Confronting_ghosts_web.pdf

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2012/11/13/review-of-buddhist-fury-tlc-nmrev-xlvi/

http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Staff/mccargo-map-national-anxieties-rusi-09.pdf

http://www.slideshare.net/ikhwanng/history-and-politics-of-the-muslims-in-thailand

http://www.defence.g...d_Nurakkate.pdf

http://www.openbriefing.org/thinktank/publications/prospects-for-peace-in-thailands-deep-south/

Cheers for that Simple1, looks useful

[Waterloo]

The OP claims to know "more about Pattani than anyone else on the forum".

I assume you were born and raised in Pattani andrew?

This is a Thai forum....having lived in Pattani for a while hardly qualifies "the man who knows nothing" to make such statements.

Please stop contradicting yourself.

Wrong.

Let me try to help.

Socrates said that the only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.

This is because knowledge -- from a philosophical as well as practical viewpoint -- is infinite.

You and I cannot therefore claim to have amassed 50% of all knowledge. Equally, I cannot indulge in petty oneupmanship by saying that while you have amassed 25% of all knowledge, I am superior to you by virtue of my more impressive 26%.

Ultimately, we can only ever know nothing. A percentage or fraction of something which is infinite is an impossibility.

Hence it is that although I know considerably more than you, I still know nothing. There is no contradiction here.

One claim I can make, however, is that one of us may have studied PPE at Oxford and one of us may not have.

-------------------------

The real benefit of knowing that you know nothing lies in the retention of intellectual curiosity.

I am an artist with a permanently blank canvas. I am a child with a permanently enquiring mind.

----------------------

Deep, huh?

For someone who claims they can't indulge in petty oneupmanship you appear to be having a pretty good stab at it!

[HeavyDrinker]

Andrew....when people have to start quoting Socrates to defend an argument they couldn't even make in the first place, I'd say you're out of your depth here.....

[Bluenose BKK]

Andrew....when people have to start quoting Socrates to defend an argument they couldn't even make in the first place, I'd say you're out of your depth here.....

"Heavy Drinker" weighs in with another gem there,did your AA collective help you out with that one?Let's all hope that no nation has been foolish enough to issue you with a permit to drive!

[HeavyDrinker]

But at least I know what year it is...

[andrew]

Andrew....when people have to start quoting Socrates to defend an argument they couldn't even make in the first place, I'd say you're out of your depth here.....

Huge explosion today here in central Pattani. Bomb went off at exactly 13H20.

MCOT reports 1 dead and 10 injured.

This forum's news section only reports 10 injured.

The explosion was close to a place where I sometimes get my shoes fixed.

-----

In view of the above, do you honestly think I care about the opinions of clueless pipsqueaks on anonymous forums?

[HeavyDrinker]

Andrew....when people have to start quoting Socrates to defend an argument they couldn't even make in the first place, I'd say you're out of your depth here.....

Huge explosion today here in central Pattani. Bomb went off at exactly 13H20.

MCOT reports 1 dead and 10 injured.

This forum's news section only reports 10 injured.

The explosion was close to a place where I sometimes get my shoes fixed.

-----

In view of the above, do you honestly think I care about the opinions of clueless pipsqueaks on anonymous forums?

Then move or get your shoes done elsewhere.

To use early news reports as a stick to beat the forum with doesn't work as early reports from 9-11 thought as many as 10,000 had died....

I still fail to see how you think just because you've lived somewhere for a year, you 'know' more than the rest of us when as you rightly said, this is an 'anonymous' forum, and you know nothing about anyone who posts here.

At least give some qualification to your assumed credentials. Do you speak Thai, Jawi, Malay? Just what are you doing there? Are you on some 'gap year adventure' so when you go back to University, you can claim to be an 'expert' on Southern Thailand...or just making crap documentaries perchance?

[jocko]

Andrew....when people have to start quoting Socrates to defend an argument they couldn't even make in the first place, I'd say you're out of your depth here.....

Huge explosion today here in central Pattani. Bomb went off at exactly 13H20.

MCOT reports 1 dead and 10 injured.

This forum's news section only reports 10 injured.

The explosion was close to a place where I sometimes get my shoes fixed.

-----

In view of the above, do you honestly think I care about the opinions of clueless pipsqueaks on anonymous forums?

Then move or get your shoes done elsewhere.

To use early news reports as a stick to beat the forum with doesn't work as early reports from 9-11 thought as many as 10,000 had died....

I still fail to see how you think just because you've lived somewhere for a year, you 'know' more than the rest of us when as you rightly said, this is an 'anonymous' forum, and you know nothing about anyone who posts here.

At least give some qualification to your assumed credentials. Do you speak Thai, Jawi, Malay? Just what are you doing there? Are you on some 'gap year adventure' so when you go back to University, you can claim to be an 'expert' on Southern Thailand...or just making crap documentaries perchance? [/quote

Another haymaker from HD but is it a knockout?

[bonobo]

The topic is relevant and of interest to many, but this thread has devolved into a personal spat.

If this continues, I will close the thread--reluctantly perhaps, but I will close it, nevertheless.

[Will2011]

The topic is not about the catchy headline but describing oppression of million of people in some areas. I believe they have the right to live independently just as North of Ireland folks do.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Lots of theories on what causes or caused the problem and lays blame in various parties.

What solutions have been considered or floated up by anybody with credibility?

Independence?

Sell some or all of the problem provinces to Malaysia?

Sort of religious partitioning such as Province A is buddhist, Province B is islamic etc. Or slicing up a province?

What does the Thaksin group want?

Kick the can down the road?

[HeavyDrinker]

Andrew:

Can you answer the following few questions?

-Who do you think was responsible?

-Who were they targeting?

[HeavyDrinker]

Lots of theories on what causes or caused the problem and lays blame in various parties.

What solutions have been considered or floated up by anybody with credibility?

Independence?

Sell some or all of the problem provinces to Malaysia?

Sort of religious partitioning such as Province A is buddhist, Province B is islamic etc. Or slicing up a province?

What does the Thaksin group want?

Kick the can down the road?

Solutions are thin on the ground CSNT. There is not going to be a 'quick fix' here.

Even fairly moderate suggestions like ' give them a degree of autonomy' are met with anger by the Thai Nationalists up in BKK (and aren't they all, no matter what colour shirt they wear?)

This is all so deeply rooted it's going to take a lot of diplomacy to sort out....

[bonobo]

Lots of theories on what causes or caused the problem and lays blame in various parties.

What solutions have been considered or floated up by anybody with credibility?

Independence?

Sell some or all of the problem provinces to Malaysia?

Sort of religious partitioning such as Province A is buddhist, Province B is islamic etc. Or slicing up a province?

What does the Thaksin group want?

Kick the can down the road?

Solutions are thin on the ground CSNT. There is not going to be a 'quick fix' here.

Even fairly moderate suggestions like ' give them a degree of autonomy' are met with anger by the Thai Nationalists up in BKK (and aren't they all, no matter what colour shirt they wear?)

This is all so deeply rooted it's going to take a lot of diplomacy to sort out....

Autonomy has been floated in recent talks, and while Muslim spokesmen have welcomed that coming into discussions as a sign of movement, the more militant among the Muslims have soundly rejected the idea; at least that is what it seems from the posters they have put up.

[HeavyDrinker]

Well Mr B, the drawback to plans of autonomy is that they haven't even come close to hitting the negotiating table. Probably never will....

Hardline Thai Nationalists in "Bangkok" see the South as "Thai Soil" and that is an end to it.

Any compromise is an insult to 'Nation' etc....

Solutions offered by "outside" (overseas) organisations have thus far been rejected off hand as they are seen as 'interfering with Thai Affairs'...

I'm sure I don't need to go further into it all cos I don't want a holiday...but you're clued up...