The Even Hand Of The Law.

[samran]

People trying to undertake shortcuts in Thailand will always be exploited. Working in an area which is highly regulated anyway, without all the proper documents lined up in a row is just asking for trouble. On top of that, trying to do it yourself is just naive. Please lets stop with this 'oh poor little me, the paperwork isn't coming when I need it'. Paperwork always takes time, even for the big and powerful in Thailand.

If you did this anywhere else in the world you'd be hiring lawyers/solicitors to help on the regulatory side of things and to push your interests, people who are trained to game the system themselves. Opening your business until all your regulatory approvals have been approved is just dumb. Selling products without having done due dilligence on regulatory approvals needed is also just dumb.

[DiNiro]

Rule by law. Not rule of law.

The cops and people with money use the law to harass and intimidate.

Never invest in Thailand.

[Beetlejuice]

Never invest in Thailand if trying to cut corners and by pass the legal system that includes Thais and foreigners.

I wonder how much the OPs farang husband is involved in this so-called Pharmacy business and how the OPs pharmaceutical dealings were tumbled?

Rather than accuse the authorities of corruption, I would first consider the exploits of those like the OP and how they operate their businesses here? Noticed that she has not returned to directly answer any of the questions I put to her and will assume that she is an illegal business owner unless convinced otherwise. But that’s not up to me, it`s for the court to decide and dish out the relevant penalties in this case.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[FunFon]

...

Rather than accuse the authorities of corruption

...

-

-

All fine and good to recommend doing everything the right way, particularly necessary when a foreigner or his/her money is involved here

Just as long as people realize that in many locations and particular industries that such a policy is often necessary but not sufficient, that "the legal system that includes Thais and foreigners" often requires some level of greasing the wheels, in some contexts little more than the kind of gratuity you'd give to the porter at the airport back home, just a little additional unofficial tax that's all.

And note this is simply my own personal observation of Thai culture, I am not condoning nor encouraging such illegal behaviour.

A good lawyer knowledgeable of that specific type of business with personal contacts with the local authorities can certainly help with all these requirements, but taking a "high horse" stand that not one baht will be paid on the side to help facilitate matters will usually cause nothing but extra delays and expense.

[poanoi]

Don't pretend corruption doesn't exist here, this place is rotten to the core.

If you need an official paper, you have to pay the official under table to get it,

if you are higher up you can tell them how high to jump

[Honkie]

OP . so your husband condones the way you operate your business without the proper paperwork ??

read up matey , she said she had been waiting for jo bloggs at the council to do their paperwork

OP . so your husband condones the way you operate your business without the proper paperwork ??

read up matey , she said she had been waiting for jo bloggs at the council to do their paperwork

Right , so it is ok to operate without the license ?

Imagine telling the copper that stopped you when driving a car in England .." Sir , I have already applied for a learner license , should be in the post !!! "

[samran]

Don't pretend corruption doesn't exist here, this place is rotten to the core.

If you need an official paper, you have to pay the official under table to get it,

if you are higher up you can tell them how high to jump

No one is pretending that there isn't corruption.

[Beetlejuice]

Don't pretend corruption doesn't exist here, this place is rotten to the core.

If you need an official paper, you have to pay the official under table to get it,

if you are higher up you can tell them how high to jump

Corruption does exist in Thailand, but one criminal act does not justify another, especially in this case when dealing with medicines and pharmaceutical products. For example, would any of you buy pharmaceutical drugs or medicines for yourself or family from this woman or her husband? Or would you recommend someone like this to your friends or families?

The amazing thing is that this woman or her farang husband created this thread to explain that she broke the law and expected to recieve sympathetic responses. Do they really believe that the Thai authorities are stupid and under handed business that would never be acceptable in the West, should be acceptable here?

Anyone who decides to become involved in shady and illegal business practices do so at their own risks of getting caught and paying the penalties.

The solution is, abide and stay within the boundaries of the laws and save themselves a lot of inconvenience and trouble, because nobody cares.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[Jitar]

I have sympathy for the OP because simply complying with the law or not taking short cuts is not the total answer. Thailand has a multitude of laws that apply to business and many are poorly defined. A lot are enforced poorly or not at all. The interpretation varies over time so even if you comply today, tomorrow you may not.

Anyone trying to operate a legitimate business in Thailand is vulnerable to inadvertently falling on the wrong side of an officials interpretation of applicable laws. The poor enforcement leads people to think the system is flexible. However a business or owner, (Thai or Farang) can a strict interpretation if there is a well connected competitor or pissed off customer that wants to cause problems, or an official that wants some supplemental income.

Business licences should be clear cut and straight forward, but they are not. Some licenses for my company have taken years to resolve. probably because we would not pay back-handers. Luckily I work in a different industry to the OP and some licenses were not critical or we could leave the work on hold until the Thai bureaucracy felt they had penalised us enough. In one case they got their revenge by simply by changing the interpretation of the work category after all the delays to make the license useless.

The OP must have thought operating while her license was "in process" was acceptable or unlikely to be punished. I wonder what advise was given to her by the the officials dealing with the license application.

[FunFon]

especially in this case when dealing with medicines and pharmaceutical products. For example, would any of you buy pharmaceutical drugs or medicines for yourself or family from this woman or her husband? Or would you recommend someone like this to your friends or families?

I think it's stupid to take advice on such matters from even the most qualified pharma-brainwashed medical professional.

The consumer should know exactly what they want and be able to get it - only legal interference IMO should be that the ingredients are what they are supposed to be.

[Beetlejuice]

especially in this case when dealing with medicines and pharmaceutical products. For example, would any of you buy pharmaceutical drugs or medicines for yourself or family from this woman or her husband? Or would you recommend someone like this to your friends or families?

I think it's stupid to take advice on such matters from even the most qualified pharma-brainwashed medical professional.

The consumer should know exactly what they want and be able to get it - only legal interference IMO should be that the ingredients are what they are supposed to be.

Really.

So if I decide to call myself a pharmacist or a herbalist or any other sorts of persons of the medical profession, exempting myself from all imposed requirements, regulations and unregistered, answerable to nobody, are you going to take my word for it and trust in what potions and lotions I sell to you?

My spam box becomes full of these so-called pharmaceutical miracle cure specialists on a daily basis that rely on people like you.

As the wise man says; there is one born every minute.

[FunFon]

especially in this case when dealing with medicines and pharmaceutical products. For example, would any of you buy pharmaceutical drugs or medicines for yourself or family from this woman or her husband? Or would you recommend someone like this to your friends or families?

I think it's stupid to take advice on such matters from even the most qualified pharma-brainwashed medical professional.

The consumer should know exactly what they want and be able to get it - only legal interference IMO should be that the ingredients are what they are supposed to be.

Really.

So if I decide to call myself a pharmacist or a herbalist or any other sorts of persons of the medical profession, exempting myself from all imposed requirements, regulations and unregistered, answerable to nobody, are you going to take my word for it and trust in what potions and lotions I sell to you?

My spam box becomes full of these so-called pharmaceutical miracle cure specialists on a daily basis that rely on people like you.

As the wise man says; there is one born every minute.

-

Speaking for myself personally, I'm not asking for nor accepting any advice from anyone selling such products, I know what I want long before I enter such a shop. All I ask from the government is that the odds are good that what's on the label is in the package.

The quality and effectiveness of government regulation here is well illustrated by the fact that the major hospitals were selling off industrial quantities of ephedrine precursors to "druglord" (most likely mafias headed by high government officials) amphetamine manufacturing - hundreds of millions of tablets just last year.

Sure it's a good thing that now they're tightening up enforcement of their regulations, just don't claim abiding by "the law" here in any strict western-concept way is always the way to go when trying to deal with the practicalities of setting up and running a business here.

And I think very very few places here in Thailand employ pharmacists actually trained to the level we'd expect from back home.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

This is common in so many countries.

Set the legal bar high to keep out fair competition and force people to compensate the authorities such as police with bribes.

Until a country has a independent judiciary system then groups or individuals can't sue the govt/police etc to apply the law uniformly.

Even when enforcement is more fair then legislators will craft laws to favor their "friends".

At least in that case everybody can read the law and know what the rules are.

Following the letter of the law is a recipe for failure in Thailand, China, Laos, Vietnam and long list of other countries.

[Beetlejuice]

This is common in so many countries.

Set the legal bar high to keep out fair competition and force people to compensate the authorities such as police with bribes.

Until a country has a independent judiciary system then groups or individuals can't sue the govt/police etc to apply the law uniformly.

Even when enforcement is more fair then legislators will craft laws to favor their "friends".

At least in that case everybody can read the law and know what the rules are.

Following the letter of the law is a recipe for failure in Thailand, China, Laos, Vietnam and long list of other countries.

I agree with much of what you say, but please keep in mind that in this specific case the woman is peddling drugs and medicines.

[kevvy]

we went through the same thing , no service for 3 months and then we gave a donation to the service people and we had our job done in a week,s time . this is Thailand and get use to it.

[Berkshire]

People trying to undertake shortcuts in Thailand will always be exploited. Working in an area which is highly regulated anyway, without all the proper documents lined up in a row is just asking for trouble. On top of that, trying to do it yourself is just naive. Please lets stop with this 'oh poor little me, the paperwork isn't coming when I need it'. Paperwork always takes time, even for the big and powerful in Thailand.

If you did this anywhere else in the world you'd be hiring lawyers/solicitors to help on the regulatory side of things and to push your interests, people who are trained to game the system themselves. Opening your business until all your regulatory approvals have been approved is just dumb. Selling products without having done due dilligence on regulatory approvals needed is also just dumb.

But this is Ms. Wildorchild we're talking about. She--allegedly of the Thai persuasion--seems to have neverending problems here in the LOS. Even the hardluck farangs that we hear about here on TV have nothing on her. Either she is the unluckiest person alive, or......who knows? Something is definitely not right in Ms. W's world, and I don't think it has anything to do with Thailand.

[siberianwarcat]

I have found the Thai statutory processes to be the most amenable to my needs. Dates can be changed, deadlines pushed back, guidelines or rules seemingly disappeared. I think it's about playing the game following the laws, customs and practice. At first glance they can appear conflicting but in reality, as far as my experience is concerned, it has been very straight forward. The OP I think is trying to draw an albeit strange comparison, I think based on an assumption of a rule of law. Strange.

[wildorchid]

I have come to the conclusion that Thai's do not want or appreciate farang businesses. Doing business here is an uphill battle because instead of seeing it as "people investing money and creating jobs" they see it as "if you weren't here, they would be making that money"

um, which bit of "....shut my pharmacy and several others" did you not understand? Unless they is a unique concentration of farang owned pharmacies up where the OP is, it seems like the government people discriminated equally between Thai and foreign here.

I'm also perplexed as to why people think getting a pharmacy license should be an easy thing to do? For my money, it should be one of the most regulated industries about.

Correct.

There has been an effort by the FDA to respond to serious allegations in respect to the improper dispensing of regulated products by the pharmacies. Intervention at a retail pharmacy is infrequent and usually comes after complaints or serious allegations. For example, some pharmacies have unlicensed personnel handling regulated products or that sell products classified as a drug, but are unapproved drugs in Thailand.

I am a long time critic of Thailand's medicinal drug distribution system and the lack of enforcement actions. My experience has been that the authorities do not intervene enough. I have no confidence in Thailand's small pharmacies after the Viagra integrity verification I observed. All of the products purchased were obtained without a script and all were counterfeit. Not only were the lot numbers bogus, the product monographs were distinguished by errors.

In respect to the aloe and coconut product referenced, the key question is whether or not the product contained other ingredients and whether the product came under the FDA regulations. If it was an unapproved product, then the authorities had a legal obligation to intervene. Sometimes products sold in Thailand as "natural" products are adulterated with contaminants. I do not know the facts of this specific case, however, I would not be surprised if there was more to the story than just paper work and the selling of an aloe and coconut oil product.

OK, YES i agree with you that there most definitely needs to be a stonger regulation and a closer monitoring of this industry as there are so many NON profetional people in the health buisness, as I see it often when people come in too my phamacy and show mediciene purchased just minets ago and it is not the correct medicine or incorrect dose information given, I welocme regulation but I object to bureaucrats not doing their job in a timly manner and the penalty that is payed by the the peorson they are suposed to be working for, the TAX PAYER...

ps, Paperwork, and aloe and coconut oil is the hole story,

[wildorchid]

OP . so your husband condones the way you operate your business without the proper paperwork ??

Unfortunatly you do NOT know how the system of pharmacy compliance is done, So Honkie your coment of my husband condoning the no paperwork situation is one of ignorance,

In this provence a pharmacy is opened and after some time the verious government bodies vist the pharmacy and tick the boxes so to speak and a pass and documents givern at each diferent level, it is the local section that we have been wiating on to do thier job.

[wildorchid]

Why did the OP not check all the formalities and ensure that all the paperwork was in order prior to operating her Pharmacy business in Thailand?

There are obvious good reasons why those dealing and selling pharmaceutical products must be registered with the authorities.

Trying to compare her situation with the tragic case of those who lost their lives in the mini bus disaster is total nonsense. Is she saying that others have committed offences and got off lightly, so why should she need to abide by the laws and be penalised for operating an illegal Pharmacy?

In my opinion it is good that the officials have closed down this Pharmacy business, it proves they are on the ball and keeping controls on who is dealing in the selling of pharmaceutical drugs and products, considering that there are people’s health, safety and well being involved here.

If she a fully qualified pharmacist? What are her qualifications? What sort of business is she in? Does she intend to sell her products in a store, online or privately from home?

I would not purchase drugs, medicines or any pharmaceutical products from an outfit such as the OPs; even they were on offer for free. When I need to take medications or any health products, I want to know who`s dishing them out and be assured that the products are correct and won`t do me harm.

I have made every thing CORRECT, my pharmacist has a very high score, FULLY QULIFIDE,,, if you read my OP properly you would see that we have done everything the right way just the local government have not done their job,,, A Pharmacy here opens first and then it is checked by the respective bodies and a pass or fail is given, we have all ready passed the national, the provincial sectors and "waiting on the last city people to come and look and pass, so yes I have been working in the industry for most of my adult life and I have checked all the formalities first, and I welcome regulation, and intervention on those not doing the right thing...

SO it is you who need to check your facts before you pass judgment,

[wildorchid]

How awful,Aloe Vera and Coconut Oil are two of the worlds most safest tried and trusted commodoties,and are sold over the counter,without being prescribed,or needing to be licensed.

I suspect there is much more to the OPs problems than has been declared by the Authorities? Assuming the necessary licences for operating a Pharmacy are in order?

Personaly I belive be it right or wrong, the "LOCAL" governmment figure has aulterior motives for NOT giving me the last documant needed,

because in the time we have taken taken over the last owner, the turnover has more than tripled and so many offers to buy are being forwarded to us as the infrastructor is being highly developed and the whole area is undergoing a copleate transformation. or i'm just being paranoied?

[wildorchid]

Isn't the OP a Thai lady?

yes i'm a thai lady married with farang

Just to clarify? has your Pharmacy ever been open for business,or is this a startup business? and do the Authorities know you are married to a Farang? Think about either or both?

YES we bought it as an operating pharmacy, and yes they know i'm married to a falang, because of my surname.

[wildorchid]

People trying to undertake shortcuts in Thailand will always be exploited. Working in an area which is highly regulated anyway, without all the proper documents lined up in a row is just asking for trouble. On top of that, trying to do it yourself is just naive. Please lets stop with this 'oh poor little me, the paperwork isn't coming when I need it'. Paperwork always takes time, even for the big and powerful in Thailand.

If you did this anywhere else in the world you'd be hiring lawyers/solicitors to help on the regulatory side of things and to push your interests, people who are trained to game the system themselves. Opening your business until all your regulatory approvals have been approved is just dumb. Selling products without having done due dilligence on regulatory approvals needed is also just dumb.

sorry but it you who is naive, if you know anything about this industry you would not make such "dumb" ignoante coments.

have a nice day

[wildorchid]

Never invest in Thailand if trying to cut corners and by pass the legal system that includes Thais and foreigners.

I wonder how much the OPs farang husband is involved in this so-called Pharmacy business and how the OPs pharmaceutical dealings were tumbled?

Rather than accuse the authorities of corruption, I would first consider the exploits of those like the OP and how they operate their businesses here? Noticed that she has not returned to directly answer any of the questions I put to her and will assume that she is an illegal business owner unless convinced otherwise. But that’s not up to me, it`s for the court to decide and dish out the relevant penalties in this case.

I do not have the time to sit and read and coment on TV all day such as you seem to,,

so if you do read on a little further you will see some of the answers you acuse me of doging,,so when you "ASS-U-ME, you make an ASS of you and ,,,you!

[Neeranam]

Many people working in chemists in Thailand are not qualified pharmacists.Last night I went to a store in a shopping mall in Khon Kaen to ask for melatonin to help me sleep. The guy said he didn't have it but asked if I wanted some valium, which I didn't as I am recovering from a long addiction to it. I said, "no thank it's very addictive" and he said, "no, it isn't".

I've been offered valium in at least 4 chemists in Khon Kaen in the last year.I was given tramadol last year over the counter for a broken rib, again no warning. This is an opiate, I think and really screwed me up. I'd say most stores here have even stronger opiates hidden from view.

Many pharmacists are drug dealers and should be put in jail.

I have bought dangerous pharmaceutical drugs from probably 50 different chemists in Bangkok. Not just one or two but bottles of 1000 diazepam 10 mg , for example with no warning of the dangers I even bought diazepam in Foodland, Pat Pong! This was before the law changed in 1999.Thailand is 40 years behind the UK in medical matters.

Chemists/pharmacies/drug stores need to more highly regulated and checked. Many of these pharmacists think they are doctors. The fact is that they most weren't bright enough to become doctors - they are NOT qualified to prescribe medicine. There is a large well know pharmacy here that all the alcoholics go to for their happy pills. This guy should be put in jail.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Neeranam

[Honkie]

OP . so your husband condones the way you operate your business without the proper paperwork ??

Unfortunatly you do NOT know how the system of pharmacy compliance is done, So Honkie your coment of my husband condoning the no paperwork situation is one of ignorance,

In this provence a pharmacy is opened and after some time the verious government bodies vist the pharmacy and tick the boxes so to speak and a pass and documents givern at each diferent level, it is the local section that we have been wiating on to do thier job.

So , have you been breaking the law or not ?? Are the officials stitching you up ??

[wildorchid]

This is common in so many countries.

Set the legal bar high to keep out fair competition and force people to compensate the authorities such as police with bribes.

Until a country has a independent judiciary system then groups or individuals can't sue the govt/police etc to apply the law uniformly.

Even when enforcement is more fair then legislators will craft laws to favor their "friends".

At least in that case everybody can read the law and know what the rules are.

Following the letter of the law is a recipe for failure in Thailand, China, Laos, Vietnam and long list of other countries.

I agree with much of what you say, but please keep in mind that in this specific case the woman is peddling drugs and medicines.

YOU REALLY ARE NOT WELL INFORMED ARE YOU... A pharmacy has to open FIRST then checks are done for complience, that is the way is is done and that is at the governing bodies require it... SO BEFORE you make your ignorant cliams, try getting all the CORRECT information first... I wait for your OHHH YES I am so sorry yes i really dont know what Im talking about, please forgive me

[Honkie]

So OP , have you been breaking the law or not ? Just because it is a common practice doesn't mean it is right , it just means you haven't be

caught YET. People jump red lights all the time ,does it mean it is right to do that?

If I open a restaurant without a Liquor license ready , I can still operate ,meaning to sell food ONLY , I will be breaking the law if I start serving alcohol while waiting for the council to grant me a liqour license.

Do not accuse others of being ignorant and demand an apology when you yourself are in the wrong.

Having said all that , I have sympathy for you , we are all trying to work hard for a living but TiT , you should know better ,just go with the system..

[samran]

People trying to undertake shortcuts in Thailand will always be exploited. Working in an area which is highly regulated anyway, without all the proper documents lined up in a row is just asking for trouble. On top of that, trying to do it yourself is just naive. Please lets stop with this 'oh poor little me, the paperwork isn't coming when I need it'. Paperwork always takes time, even for the big and powerful in Thailand.

If you did this anywhere else in the world you'd be hiring lawyers/solicitors to help on the regulatory side of things and to push your interests, people who are trained to game the system themselves. Opening your business until all your regulatory approvals have been approved is just dumb. Selling products without having done due dilligence on regulatory approvals needed is also just dumb.

sorry but it you who is naive, if you know anything about this industry you would not make such "dumb" ignoante coments.

have a nice day

Can I just remind you that you were arrested. So it is hard to understand how getting yourself into that position is something that was required of you by the authorities.

[wildorchid]

So OP , have you been breaking the law or not ? Just because it is a common practice doesn't mean it is right , it just means you haven't be

caught YET. People jump red lights all the time ,does it mean it is right to do that?

If I open a restaurant without a Liquor license ready , I can still operate ,meaning to sell food ONLY , I will be breaking the law if I start serving alcohol while waiting for the council to grant me a liqour license.

Do not accuse others of being ignorant and demand an apology when you yourself are in the wrong.

Having said all that , I have sympathy for you , we are all trying to work hard for a living but TiT , you should know better ,just go with the system..

OK I'll say it one last time, this is what we have been instructed to do, first open and operate with everything in place such as

1. A Quilfied pharmacist in shop
2. his/her graduating paper, with photo, name and number
3. medicines kept in each seperate catagory ie, antihistamines, penacillines, acne treatments, herbal, signs in thai and english,
4. temperature control
5. clean. ect, and each item checked and then the box ticked and then you get your last paper,

so now you understand this, what has been happerning is a person working in the sor sor jor government for pharmacys has been obstructing the last paper by lieing to the person that aproves the final paper. so when the regulatoriy bodies from bangkok came to check us she phoned the provincial government and was told we did not have a pharmacist and that is why we did not get the paper, but our pharmacist was standing infront of her, so we asked for the last 2 documents signed by me, my pharmacist and loged, so this person has been caught in lies and it will now go to court. but we still had to shut our doors until the due court date. so YES i say government corruption.

NOW YES I am ofended when an ignorant person coments such as "(QUOTE) this woman is pedeling drugs and medicines" and yes i belive there should be an apollergy when the person has NO knowlege of the (REQUIRED by the governing bodies) system has been followed has made such a slanderous coment. but i wounder if he will be a man and be so free with his words to admit his mistake as he is with his previous comments? I think not.