Special Questions About Buying Land & House

[Swiss1960]

I have some specific questions about buying a house with my GF / wife. I have done loads of reading and found some information, based on which I have come to those questions. Besides Thaivisa and it’s sponsors, the main source of my information is a website called “Samouiforsale” which is linked to pretty often in this Forum. Unfortunately, I did not find answers to my special questions in this forum. Now this is what I “know” from reading:

A ) Samuiforsale has a section on their website where they say “and in case of a foreigner buying real estate in Thailand ownership of a house can be registered and transferred separate from the land it stands on “. They describe the procedure how to split ownership of land and house, full text here

B ) I did read about Usufruct and the importance in case the owning Thai partner should die first. I did read that it can be giving for (my) lifetime and it must be registered in the Land Office. I also did read that when such an Usufruct has been signed during marriage, “any agreement concluded between husband and wife during marriage may be voided by either of them at any time during marriage or within one year from the day of dissolution of marriage; provided that the right of third persons acting in good faith is not affected thereby'. “.

C ) I did read about the prenuptial contract and the importance to clearly define which of the assets are “'Personal property (Sin Suan Tua)” and which are “marital assets ('Sin Somros)“. I did also read that it is not possible to do post-nuptial agreements.

D ) Finally, I did find this text: “Also the Ministerial Regulation and 'letter of confirmation' by which land has been registered as a personal property of the Thai spouse cannot supersede the system of property between husband and wife as laid down in the Civil and Commercial Code. This in effect means that even though real estate in Thailand has been registered as a personal property of the Thai spouse it will not per definition be allocated to the Thai national in the event of a divorce. In the event of a contested divorce the courts in Thailand must divide the properties according to the Civil Code's system, irrespective the content of the certify or confirmation letter signed during the marriage and registration of the land as a personal property of the Thai national. “.In addition, I did find a text about the Civil and Commercial Code that says “Section 1474 marital assets ... consists of ...property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will of gift made in writing if it is declared by such will or document of gift to be Sin Somros"

So now based on all that, here are my questions:

1 ) Has anybody on here ever tried the “split” route as described in A )?

2 ) If the house is bought and an Usufruct is established BEFORE marriage, can the (future) wife still void the agreement in case of a divorce? From how I read the text, that should not be possible.

3 ) Is it possible and legal to do a contract (both with GF or wife) to say something like “The property bought for 5 Mio is split as follows: The land is Sin Suan Tua of the Thai partner of value 1 Mio, the house on the land with value of 4 Mio is joint ownership between X and Y” and could such a contract be legally enforced? Could a prenuptial agreement have such a clause to say something like “during marriage, if the spouses buy land and house, the land will be Sin Suan Tua of the Thai partner and the house on the land will be Sin Somros”?

4 ) Reading the text found under point D ) above, would that not also mean that if we declare that the money used to buy the property (house only) is a gift, then during a dispute, I would legally and automatically be allocated 50% of the ownership, independent of the land title which is always in the Thai partners name? Would such a provision give me full ownership of the house in case my Thai partner would die before me?

I know all the “if you don’t trust, don’t buy”... but I have another saying “be informed is be prepared”. That is why I would like to ask these questions and hope to find somebody who did do any of the above and can tell me whether it works or not.

[fredob43]

Well done you on looking all this up.

Reply in a nut shell your not Thai so you lose out whatever you do.

You will know you can't own land. Yes you can own the House but if the push come's to a shove you would loose almost everything the Thai solicitor's and her family would see to that.

Think on this who would buy a house from you when you don't own the land that it sit on.

Had a friend who did just that thought he had got it right but it turned out that the small print in the contract (All in Thai) favoured the spouse as it would. In the end several year's he just walked away was costing him to much heart ache, not to mention monies.

Lot's of people will tell you it's not a problem they have done it with some success.

There is an old adage here that is if you cant afford to throw it away don't bring it over. I have lived in Thailand for well over 20 year's and have always found that saying to be correct.

Best of luck with what ever you decide to do.

Edited March 24, 2013 by fredob43

[Swiss1960]

thanks fredob43

your last sentence first: Yes, the house will be written off by me the minute it will be paid for and I'll be able to continue living in Thailand without major issues (I will be well financed when I retire).

However, what I am trying to do is find the most leverage in case things should go down the gutter and be able to show the then opposite party that it will not be easy for them to get hold of everything and maybe make them more willing to accept a deal...

[fredob43]

thanks fredob43

your last sentence first: Yes, the house will be written off by me the minute it will be paid for and I'll be able to continue living in Thailand without major issues (I will be well financed when I retire).

However, what I am trying to do is find the most leverage in case things should go down the gutter and be able to show the then opposite party that it will not be easy for them to get hold of everything and maybe make them more willing to accept a deal...

I don't know what you personal position is, example where you are thinking of living buying but what ever you do come here first and rent 'cheap' for a minimum of I would suggest two year's and see how thing's go, if all seems ok then get something that at best is very cheap. Most of all not near the family, if they have transport not nearer than 400 km and I'm not joking otherwise you would have them on the doorstep every day. The good lady will have no option but to listen to them and there in the problem's start.

Does/has she ever sent any monies over to help out if she has then she/you would be a walking ATM if you live here.

Always remember that you are not Thai so will come at best last.

Sorry to be a party pooper but I have seen more problematic situations than one's that go ok on a ratio of about 20 to 1.

Before you do anything think think and think again if your not 1,000% sure don't do it.

Hopefully you will get more info from other people that have gone down the same route. Then again the one's that have had it bad don't always own up about it.

What's wrong with a flat/condo you can own that in your own name, then you wouldn't need any leverage.

Edited March 24, 2013 by fredob43

[fredob43]

thanks fredob43

your last sentence first: Yes, the house will be written off by me the minute it will be paid for and I'll be able to continue living in Thailand without major issues (I will be well financed when I retire).

However, what I am trying to do is find the most leverage in case things should go down the gutter and be able to show the then opposite party that it will not be easy for them to get hold of everything and maybe make them more willing to accept a deal...

So you think you have all the corner's covered.

Look at the post FOUR WAY'S TO LOSE YOUR PROPERTY IN THAILAND. Bit of a sorry state the man found himself in, and they are only some of the thing's that can happen here as I said they are Thai and your not. All they have to do is give somebody a few thousand bt back hander and your in the do do's big time. RENT.

Edited March 24, 2013 by fredob43

[Swiss1960]

fredob43

Thanks again for your thoughts. However, I am only looking for the specific answers to my specific question and not for counceling about whether to buy or not to buy. I am not looking for counceling about Thai women and their families and money and being an ATM and where to live, as I have seen and read all about that for years now and travelled the country, made my experience with women and know exactly where I like it and where not.

[bushwacker]

Another over riding problem is that the correct answer in one location is not correct in many of other locations. For example, it has been stated in many places that a forang can get a usurfrut from his thai gf, say for life or 30 years if you like. Legal companies that advertise on this forum talk about setting it up. Yet last month, I went to the land office with the gf bought land and asked for a usurfrut. "Cannot .... you forang". After much discussion and talking to the next two levels up the ladder the answer still had not changed. The best they would offer is a 20 year lease. Not 30 because in their opinion that is too long. If I no like or no trust then buy a condo .... assh*les.

So the point is ... well you get it!

Good luck, I have the same problem, and no solution yet in site.

[fredob43]

I will try and answer some of your question's.

1. Cannot answer that as it's not happened to me.

2. You state that you didn't think this could be altered in Thailand if your Thai everything is possible look at four way's to lose your house.

3.A. Could you state via a contract the value of the said property land I have no doubt you could that's if you partner agreed to it in the first place, whether it would stand up in a court of law if she disputed it I very much doubt it I'm sure it would be written in such a way to cover her from all angle's.

3.B. Prenuptial agreement's are worth about as much as the paper they are written on a Thai could change that anytime they wanted to and without you knowing. (Copy of your passport is all they would need)

4. You cannot give as far as I am aware your Thai Wife a gift all monies has to come from her own bank account when buying a property, this does not go if she is your girl friend.

When I paid the monies for the G/L house we were not married so the monies could come from my Thai bank account, she had to show that we were not married, otherwise I would have had to put the cash in her one, that would have been quite a problem as she would have had to show where she got it from 'not a gift' plus they would go into everything how long it was in her account and where had it arrived from. Also I would have had to sign a paper to say that I didn't have any hold over the land or would ever seek it.

When you buy a property all the paper work show's is the land (Not the house on it) so she would at

time of purchase have control of everything. Then your best bet is later or at the same time 'done at the same place' she could sign a agreement to give you up to a 30/20 according to Bushwacker year legal lease on the place/house it would all be entered on the deed's Chanute that would give you a hold on the property even if the land was sold, not easy as who would want to buy land under those circumstances, consequently give you a bit of an upper hand.

Re post nuptial agreement's your wife can at anytime grant you said lease on the house as I read it it can be done, in my book that put's pay to you cant. How do you see it???

As regard to your question 'gift' I have already answered that one and I very much doubt that even the 50% you had so called legally would even stand up her family would see to that unless of course she had made a will but we all know that can be change the day after it was made. There could be a chance but the legal fee's would put pay to any outcome that would arise in your favour.

When we got married I was told by a local legal chap that if anything happened to my wife all would revert to me, great I thought then the bomb shell but I would have to sell the land within 1 year or I would lose everything how that would be done I don't know as didn't ask, reason we have a daughter born in Thailand so she would take hold of the property problem for me solved.

N/B You can be informed as much as you like but you will never be prepared for what go's on here, a new tale pop's up every day.

Hopefully other people will give you different account's how they got on. But I hope this help's a bit.

Edited March 25, 2013 by fredob43

[Bpuumike]

I have raised this question before but without any answers.

In addition to a usufruct on the land, does a superficie on a house in your own name on that land give you added legal protection?

I know, TIT, but a serious question.

[fredob43]

I have raised this question before but without any answers.

In addition to a usufruct on the land, does a superficie on a house in your own name on that land give you added legal protection?

I know, TIT, but a serious question.

Earlier I contacted my English daughter a solicitor who has a workmate that worked some year's ago for the same English legal company in their BKK office, to find out how they got on with regard's to dealing with westerners buying property. I have just received a reply To-Wit They dealt with all aspect's of legal work but wouldn't touch property, reason it was a mine field mainly due to the Thai language it has so many way's for them to put there interpretation of Thai law on a legal document in most case's you could read into it what ever you wanted.

She didn't say this but as we all know the law in interpreted differently in every district here.

I know it doesn't answer any question's but if one of the 10 biggest solicitor's in the world won't deal with Thai law regarding buying property what chance do us mortal's have.

[hanuman2543]

Provide the money (your sin suan tua) and let her buy the house and land in her name. Sign nothing at the Land Office. Keep all the records about the trans fer of the money with you. If things go wrong you can ask your sin suan tua back( CCC 1471, 1472). Furthermore you can sue her in a Criminal Court for violating the TPC 137 and 267, which is a serious matter. If you get a conviction that shows also a violation of the Land Amendment Act, Sec 96. Another aspect is that if she was sentenced in the Criminal Court the judge in the Civil Court will normally not rule against what the judge in the Criminal Court decided first. You have to be married for this, so buy the house after marriage. I am doing in the moment the same, so I speak from personal experience and it works. But be prepared for a long, costly battle.

PM me for more info

[Swiss1960]

Dear Fredob43

Thank you again for all your thoughts. I do however have to say again that I did read and hear almost everything about what can go wrong. The thread you mentioned (four ways to lose your property in Thailand) is a good example of somebody who obviously did NOT read anything and did NOT prepare anything in order to protect his investment.

Yes, I am ready to write off the investment when things go down the gutter, but at least, I will have will have the peace of mind that I went into the “adventure of owning a house” with open eyes and well informed and prepared the best I can to protect myself. I do however know that all the preparation can turn out to be useless.

With regards to where to live, I have done 5y of travelling until I found the place that suits me most and another two years looking around that place to find out the details of what will expect me when moving there.

With regards to rent, unfortunately the houses I like (with garden & pool, near beach, no huge condo buildings, no undeveloped areas nearby) are not for rent but for sale only. Condo is not an option because of my requirements regarding garden & pool. Issues with rent are that they can be cancelled at anytime and that the rent can raise from year to year without warning.

I also looked into lease. Of course a possibility, but there will be nothing to my heirs when I pass away and of course, I would like my Thai wife’s kids to get the house we buy once we both passed away.

By the way, I know that I can not inherit the land and would have to sell it within one year, however the kids of my wife would inherit the land and having an usufruct would at least give me the right to continue living there.

Also, some people did suggest buy through a mortgage in my wife’s name (received a PM about that). That is an option, given the mortgage is high enough so that (worst case) the wife can not take up more money, as I would be the guarantor for the mortgage. However, the downside then is that I would need to be able to invest my assets in a way to get more interest than I pay for the mortgage. Not an easy thing to do and this is bearing other risks.

[Swiss1960]

Provide the money (your sin suan tua) and let her buy the house and land in her name. Sign nothing at the Land Office. Keep all the records about the trans fer of the money with you. If things go wrong you can ask your sin suan tua back( CCC 1471, 1472). Furthermore you can sue her in a Criminal Court for violating the TPC 137 and 267, which is a serious matter. If you get a conviction that shows also a violation of the Land Amendment Act, Sec 96. Another aspect is that if she was sentenced in the Criminal Court the judge in the Civil Court will normally not rule against what the judge in the Criminal Court decided first. You have to be married for this, so buy the house after marriage. I am doing in the moment the same, so I speak from personal experience and it works. But be prepared for a long, costly battle.

PM me for more info

Thanks a lot for that info and for let me contact you for more. Seems to go into the direction of what I wrote in point D of my initial thread? I will take the liberty to contact you when I need more info and when I am further down my decision process.

[fredob43]

Dear Fredob43

Thank you again for all your thoughts. I do however have to say again that I did read and hear almost everything about what can go wrong. The thread you mentioned (four ways to lose your property in Thailand) is a good example of somebody who obviously did NOT read anything and did NOT prepare anything in order to protect his investment.

Yes, I am ready to write off the investment when things go down the gutter, but at least, I will have will have the peace of mind that I went into the “adventure of owning a house” with open eyes and well informed and prepared the best I can to protect myself. I do however know that all the preparation can turn out to be useless.

With regards to where to live, I have done 5y of travelling until I found the place that suits me most and another two years looking around that place to find out the details of what will expect me when moving there.

With regards to rent, unfortunately the houses I like (with garden & pool, near beach, no huge condo buildings, no undeveloped areas nearby) are not for rent but for sale only. Condo is not an option because of my requirements regarding garden & pool. Issues with rent are that they can be cancelled at anytime and that the rent can raise from year to year without warning.

I also looked into lease. Of course a possibility, but there will be nothing to my heirs when I pass away and of course, I would like my Thai wife’s kids to get the house we buy once we both passed away.

By the way, I know that I can not inherit the land and would have to sell it within one year, however the kids of my wife would inherit the land and having an usufruct would at least give me the right to continue living there.

Also, some people did suggest buy through a mortgage in my wife’s name (received a PM about that). That is an option, given the mortgage is high enough so that (worst case) the wife can not take up more money, as I would be the guarantor for the mortgage. However, the downside then is that I would need to be able to invest my assets in a way to get more interest than I pay for the mortgage. Not an easy thing to do and this is bearing other risks.

Glad to hear that you have found the right place for you and the G/L to live I hope everything work's out well for you both.

May I just suggest you don't go down the mortgage route with you being the guarantor as you would be liable for any payment's, those pre organised and any that might be sneaked in without you knowing !!! If you find a way to off set the interest on same with safe investment's please tell.

Re rent even though I suggested that was the way to go you would have seen that I have not gone down that route and bought mine/Hers that's because I rented the place first for one year and when we tried to get another 1 year's rent agreement was told by the owner that she wanted to sell the place, so it was get out or buy at the time several year's ago the price was 1 mil:bt just over £14tho a snip for a well built 5 double bedroom 6 wet room place that had all the right paperwork, but as I said that was several year's ago would I do it now with the exchange rate as it is NO.

At a later date let us all know how you get on as it help's everyone.

Once again best of luck.

[NeverSure]

fredob43

Thanks again for your thoughts. However, I am only looking for the specific answers to my specific question and not for counceling about whether to buy or not to buy. I am not looking for counceling about Thai women and their families and money and being an ATM and where to live, as I have seen and read all about that for years now and travelled the country, made my experience with women and know exactly where I like it and where not.

OK, you have been given the correct and true answers. First, you aren't Thai and the Thai officials will see to it that you lose no matter how much paperwork you do. Second, some farangs have actually found themselves in physical danger when trying to fight a Thai ex in court. Some have had to do a runner to get away from the males in the family. Third, If you fight a property settlement in court it can take years and cost as much as the house. Fourth, you say you are well fixed financially, so just consider it a write-off if the marriage fails. If you can do that without a financial burden, then it's up to you.

No matter what you do, if the marriage fails you will lose your investment almost every time.

[NeverSure]

OP, It's simply that in Thailand you can't count on the rule of law. A court can rule against you even if you are in the right. A court might rule in favor of a Thai just because.

There is no such thing as getting a fair shake to a certainty. Yes you can spend years in court but you still might lose. Even your Thai lawyer may not really care about your interest against a Thai.

Just be prepared to walk away and write it off.

[hanuman2543]

Many people here seem to think that every judge will always rule in the favor of the Thai. This is really not true. I've talked to 2 foreigners who had won similar cases (one is a member of this forum) and in my case the police and the judges are more on my side than on the side of my wife. It is maybe the case if the Thai is well connected, but not if normal Thais are involved. It is like in the West, they want evidence and are not interested in blablabla. This they know all too good from their fellow countrymen. What you need is a determined Thai person who really wants to help you to check all the info available in Thai and a proper lawyer which is really hard to find.

And it would be really interesting to hear how many people here know that only from hearsay or really from their own experience.

Edited March 27, 2013 by hanuman2543

[fredob43]

Many people here seem to think that every judge will always rule in the favor of the Thai. This is really not true. I've talked to 2 foreigners who had won similar cases (one is a member of this forum) and in my case the police and the judges are more on my side than on the side of my wife. It is maybe the case if the Thai is well connected, but not if normal Thais are involved. It is like in the West, they want evidence and are not interested in blablabla. This they know all too good from their fellow countrymen. What you need is a determined Thai person who really wants to help you to check all the info available in Thai and a proper lawyer which is really hard to find.

And it would be really interesting to hear how many people here know that only from hearsay or really from their own experience.

I can quote you three cases where westerners 'friend's of mine' have lost the lot with several hanging on by their finger nail's and that's in my local district. Only one got out cheapish at under £50 thousand the other two close to £100 thousand. All three have now gone to pasture's green maybe a little wiser ???

That's why I try to put people off doing the same but if they are set on it best of luck.

They have been advised.

[hanuman2543]

Many people here seem to think that every judge will always rule in the favor of the Thai. This is really not true. I've talked to 2 foreigners who had won similar cases (one is a member of this forum) and in my case the police and the judges are more on my side than on the side of my wife. It is maybe the case if the Thai is well connected, but not if normal Thais are involved. It is like in the West, they want evidence and are not interested in blablabla. This they know all too good from their fellow countrymen. What you need is a determined Thai person who really wants to help you to check all the info available in Thai and a proper lawyer which is really hard to find.

And it would be really interesting to hear how many people here know that only from hearsay or really from their own experience.

I can quote you three cases where westerners 'friend's of mine' have lost the lot with several hanging on by their finger nail's and that's in my local district. Only one got out cheapish at under £50 thousand the other two close to £100 thousand. All three have now gone to pasture's green maybe a little wiser ???

That's why I try to put people off doing the same but if they are set on it best of luck.

They have been advised.

Did they rely only on their lawyers? In that case I do not wonder about the outcome. You (the foreigner) have to give the directions for the lawyer and control everything he is doing.You must be informed about the specific sections you want to use and you must be informed what the rulings of the Dika and Uthorn Courts in similar cases had been. You trust your Thai lawyer and dont't know anything about the subject yourself, you are f****d. Another important aspect is that you should know how to play the "Thai game".

[fredob43]

Many people here seem to think that every judge will always rule in the favor of the Thai. This is really not true. I've talked to 2 foreigners who had won similar cases (one is a member of this forum) and in my case the police and the judges are more on my side than on the side of my wife. It is maybe the case if the Thai is well connected, but not if normal Thais are involved. It is like in the West, they want evidence and are not interested in blablabla. This they know all too good from their fellow countrymen. What you need is a determined Thai person who really wants to help you to check all the info available in Thai and a proper lawyer which is really hard to find.

And it would be really interesting to hear how many people here know that only from hearsay or really from their own experience.

I can quote you three cases where westerners 'friend's of mine' have lost the lot with several hanging on by their finger nail's and that's in my local district. Only one got out cheapish at under £50 thousand the other two close to £100 thousand. All three have now gone to pasture's green maybe a little wiser ???

That's why I try to put people off doing the same but if they are set on it best of luck.

They have been advised.

Did they rely only on their lawyers? In that case I do not wonder about the outcome. You (the foreigner) have to give the directions for the lawyer and control everything he is doing.You must be informed about the specific sections you want to use and you must be informed what the rulings of the Dika and Uthorn Courts in similar cases had been. You trust your Thai lawyer and dont't know anything about the subject yourself, you are f****d. Another important aspect is that you should know how to play the "Thai game".

I must say I don't know all the intricacies of each case but the two that lost out big time did fight it in the court's both lost out and it cost them bundle's not to mention the heart ache for the pleasure.

My advice to anyone buying like I have done is get the place cheap so if it does go belly up you can walk away, maybe a little poorer but not broke with several year's of your life still intact.

You are correct though get all the knowledge you can as most of the lawyer's here are at best rubbish.

Example The G/L and I decided to make will's mainly for our Daughter, popped along to a local chap. His word's why do you want to do that she is Thai so she will get everything anyway. Just show's you how their brain's work.