Us Masters

[Forethat]

Something I find incredibly disturbing is that Tiger CHANGES his statement after the first interview when he's been told that he admitted on Live television that the broke the rules and claims that he was trying to drop as close as possible to the original spot. Whereas in the first interview he gladly described how he actively backed up 2 yards to make the yardage perfect for his wedge.

For those of you who're not that rules savvy, what Tiger SHOULD have done is:

a. Take one penalty for dropping in the wrong place

b. Take one penalty for playing from the wrong place (even 20-7 could be applied here)

He should be disqualified for returning an incorrect scorecard.

But he was not disqualified. What he should have done, or should not have, is totally inconsequential in our discussion. All that matters is what the official ruling was. It is funny they did not teach you about official rulings when you were studying to become an offical.

In golf you're expected to penalise yourself when you have broken the rule. What the officials say doesn't matter. You always have the right to penalise yourself. There are several examples of players who's done this. It's nothing uncommon.

[isawasnake]

He will forever be branded as a cheat unless he withdraws.

If listening to and abiding by official rulings is going to result in "forever being labeled as a cheat", well, that will be a new one.

[Forethat]

He will forever be branded as a cheat unless he withdraws.

If listening to and abiding by official rulings is going to result in "forever being labeled as a cheat", well, that will be a new one.

Keep in mind this is the first time where rules are neglected in favor of a home-made decision. More than one player in the field is laughing at this spectacle, I can tell you...

Dont be too surprised if this spectacle continues. I really hope Tiger doesn't win (for his own good). I'm a huge fan of Tiger, but this time he needs to do the right thing, which is to tell the dorks and clowns at Augusta that he's decided to play by the book and come back next year.

Simple as that.

[isawasnake]

Something I find incredibly disturbing is that Tiger CHANGES his statement after the first interview when he's been told that he admitted on Live television that the broke the rules and claims that he was trying to drop as close as possible to the original spot. Whereas in the first interview he gladly described how he actively backed up 2 yards to make the yardage perfect for his wedge.

For those of you who're not that rules savvy, what Tiger SHOULD have done is:

a. Take one penalty for dropping in the wrong place

b. Take one penalty for playing from the wrong place (even 20-7 could be applied here)

He should be disqualified for returning an incorrect scorecard.

But he was not disqualified. What he should have done, or should not have, is totally inconsequential in our discussion. All that matters is what the official ruling was. It is funny they did not teach you about official rulings when you were studying to become an offical.

In golf you're expected to penalise yourself when you have broken the rule. What the officials say doesn't matter. You always have the right to penalise yourself. There are several examples of players who's done this. It's nothing uncommon.

You are acting like everything is not out in the open here. There were a dozen cameras on him, the situation has been reviewed likely for hours by officials. They came to their conclusion. In fact, how do you know for example that the officials , fans and tour aren't encouraging him to continue based on their cumulative review of the video? You are not in his shoes.

I don't think there is much of an argument here. Sorry. He has the right to play, and if he does, all heat should be directed at the officials if there was in fact a breach.

The problem here is that peolpe get biased on both sides, but they don't know it. Players are biased, because Tiger has supposedly had too much success. Not good. Officials can be biased as well, for obvious reasons. So take it out on them, more power to you. I have watched enough golf to know who a guy like Nick Faldo wants to see win though. I like Nick a lot, I really do, but he was WAY WAY out of line. There is just no disputing that imo.

[valrhona]

In golf and tennis, it is common to see players directing officials and admitting their errors. I guess in your book, if a tennis linesperson calls the ball out and it is in, the player should keep his mouth shut. Thank goodness for the game that many players still know how to be gentlemen.

Many people recognize that the decision of the officials would likely have been different if it was a different player.

[Forethat]

Doesn't matter what the officials say, the rule they have applied doesn't apply. It's a fabrication.

Rule 33-7 can only be applied when a player is not aware he has breached a rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. In cases like this, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying rule, but is not disqualified.

What is it about Tigers breach of rules (he broke two rules before breaking a third rule by signing and returning an incorrect scorecard) that he "could not reasonably have discovered"..??

"In the spirit of the game"...? Masters and Augusta is a JOKE. I can only imagine Bobby Jones is spinning in his grave right now...

[valrhona]

We knew that Woods was a cheater in his private life... Now his character is being revealed some more in the game

[isawasnake]

Doesn't matter what the officials say, the rule they have applied doesn't apply. It's a fabrication.

Rule 33-7 can only be applied when a player is not aware he has breached a rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. In cases like this, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying rule, but is not disqualified.

What is it about Tigers breach of rules (he broke two rules before breaking a third rule by signing and returning an incorrect scorecard) that he "could not reasonably have discovered"..??

"In the spirit of the game"...? Masters and Augusta is a JOKE. I can only imagine Bobby Jones is spinning in his grave right now...

So now you have inappropriately digressed to the fact that "official rulings don't matter". Nice statement.

[Forethat]

Pretty incredible though, the margins in this matter are microscopical - but the consequences are astronomical.

If Tigers wedge hadn't hit the stick he could have done a birdie at best, par at worst. That's a 3-4 shot difference on the leader-board, and crazy difference in Tigers head, I'm sure. He would have been in the lead, and he seldom looses when he's in the lead.

Masters lost due to a 1/4 inch freak accuracy.

Incredible drama.

[isawasnake]

In golf and tennis, it is common to see players directing officials and admitting their errors. I guess in your book, if a tennis linesperson calls the ball out and it is in, the player should keep his mouth shut. Thank goodness for the game that many players still know how to be gentlemen.

Many people recognize that the decision of the officials would likely have been different if it was a different player.

No, what I RIGHTLY say is that if he kept his mouth shut, or opened, it would be extremely inappropriate for me to judge him for doing either. Maybe he didn't see if it was in, maybe he's not sure. Who knows? Nobody. You are way off. You need to take your moral high horse Bs and apply it to yourself, which would be fine, and not judge others for doing something you have no idea is right or wrong. If standing by an official lineman's decision when it is wrong is a crime, i'd say every pro out there is a cheat anyway. Just way off, too bad. I actually feel sorry for you guys who erroneously think this way. I find these sentiments typical, sad and self serving bloviations.

[Forethat]

Doesn't matter what the officials say, the rule they have applied doesn't apply. It's a fabrication.

Rule 33-7 can only be applied when a player is not aware he has breached a rule because of facts that he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered prior to returning his score card. In cases like this, the player still receives the penalty associated with the breach of the underlying rule, but is not disqualified.

What is it about Tigers breach of rules (he broke two rules before breaking a third rule by signing and returning an incorrect scorecard) that he "could not reasonably have discovered"..??

"In the spirit of the game"...? Masters and Augusta is a JOKE. I can only imagine Bobby Jones is spinning in his grave right now...

So now you have inappropriately digressed to the fact that "official rulings don't matter". Nice statement.

It's an accurate statement. The rule they have referred to cannot be applied in this case.

I should mention I'm a referee myself.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a danger that this can create a spooky precedence. The process (for those of you who doesn't know, and I presume most of you dont) in cases like this is that the Tournament Leader informs R&A and USGA about the decisions during the tournament. These tournament decisions often creates the presidencies and rulings that ends up in the decision book.

I should also tell you that with every group follows a rules official. If you make a drop, the rules official will be there to check that you drop accordingly. You also have the option to ask him, or call for a referee if you are not sure about the process or rules. What COULD have happened in this case is that the rules official in the group checked the drop and didn't point out that there was something wrong. If Tiger has asked, he would have been in the clear, BUT HE DIDN'T ASK. For this reason, Tiger is responsible. And later someone points out that there was a problem with the drop, and Masters Tournament is in danger of losing face. This opens for the possibility that that the Tournament Officials feels responsible for the situation and claims they should have told Tiger he was in breach of a rule.

The problem is there's no such thing as "apologies for not telling you that you broke the rule", it's your own responsibility to make sure you dont. And in this case it means disqualification.

I hope this explains it.

[valrhona]

I guess your position is that fair play, honor and integrity are just BS and what matters is following the rules regardless of the spirit behind it.

If no one sees it, it never happened... if you get treated differently than others then take full advantage of it. Got it! Not an uncommon attitude.

[isawasnake]

I guess your position is that fair play, honor and integrity are just BS and what matters is following the rules regardless of the spirit behind it.

If no one sees it, it never happened... if you get treated differently than others then take full advantage of it. Got it! Not an uncommon attitude.

Well, we just disagree. I do find there a counter-intuitive nature to your position though, in that you are the one causing harm to the game(s) without knowing it.

But anyway, you somehow didn't read my post, not my points at all. One more time, to elucidate my point, i'll use your own example. You say that if a tennis player is playing for match point (for drama's sake:)), and he sees a ball that is in bounds hit near his feet, yet the line official calls it out, he should jump up and yell "no no, it was in ref"!! If he doesn't do that he has no integrity and is a cheater.

That is your position, whether you know it or not. What I am saying, is I will not judge him no matter what he does, as it is not my place, I am not in his shoes, I don't even know what he saw (how could I) or perceived, along with a host of other reasons that should be obvious to anybody. I don't even know how people can say with a straight face that he is a "cheater" for not calling the ball in.... I mean that is the whole deal with the counter-intuitive nature of your position - you think you are doing "good", but you are doing harm. It is a competition, there are rules. If the players abide by them, there is no fault one way or another.

In short, if Tiger keeps playing some here will think he is a "cheater", and people like me will think no better or worse of him for playing.

[Forethat]

It is a competition, there are rules. If the players abide by them, there is no fault one way or another.

That's the problem in a nutshell. He didn't abide by the rules. And the penalty for breaking one of these rules (read my previous posts for an explanation WHY) is disqualification.

[isawasnake]

It is a competition, there are rules. If the players abide by them, there is no fault one way or another.

That's the problem in a nutshell. He didn't abide by the rules. And the penalty for breaking one of these rules (read my previous posts for an explanation WHY) is disqualification.

Well, full circle now, but as I inferred initially, disqualify him then - it is all on video clear as can be.

If not, then play on.

[valrhona]

I agree that he can't be called a cheater but there's a difference between not being a cheater and being a person of honor and integrity.

Considering the beating he took for being a cheater in his private life, he had a chance to take the high road and gain respect from everyone just like the tennis player who overrules the linesman call(and it does happen regularly) or like the golfers who report their mistakes even though it might have been unnoticed.

Instead, he chooses to take advantage of his position and standing and continue on even though many people have been DQed for similar offenses... No one can call him a cheat but it's pretty hard to call him a gentlemen or a poster boy for fair play.

[isawasnake]

I agree that he can't be called a cheater but there's a difference between not being a cheater and being a person of honor and integrity.

Considering the beating he took for being a cheater in his private life, he had a chance to take the high road and gain respect from everyone just like the tennis player who overrules the linesman call(and it does happen regularly) or like the golfers who report their mistakes even though it might have been unnoticed.

Instead, he chooses to take advantage of his position and standing and continue on even though many people have been DQed for similar offenses... No one can call him a cheat but it's pretty hard to call him a gentlemen or a poster boy for fair play.

That is your opinion. Very entitled to it no doubt.

For me, I would have gained no respect or admiration for him for quitting an event! Not sure why I would. But as you say, up to each person to decide I guess. I think it is misguided to implicate him in any way, as opposed to the officials, but that is clearly just my opinion.

[Forethat]

I agree that he can't be called a cheater but there's a difference between not being a cheater and being a person of honor and integrity.

Ehhh...actually, there are some other disturbing facts in this case.

In his first interview, Tiger happily described the process of thinking that lead up to the incorrect drop. He described how he calculated the distance and added two yards.

Later, when he'd been informed of the embarrassing moment when he admitted to have broken the rule (in Live television), he changes his statements when he's being interviewed, and claims he dropped as close as possible to the original spot.

As close as possible...? This in my book is worse than being a cheat, he's trying to cover it up.

[valrhona]

It should be pretty easy to see why one would... There are many players, commentators and golf fans that feel he was treated differently because of his standing and position.

Certainly the officials should come under fire but Woods doesn't come out of it clean and free. That is very obvious from the commotion that this decision is causing. You might not have more respect for him but clearly many players and fans would do and in light of his damaged image, it would probably have been a good thing. I don't think he has to worry bout being called a quitter either...

Even if he miraculously managed to win, there would always be an asterisks beside the win.

[valrhona]

I don't think it's fair to say he's trying to cover it up since he's aware that everything is on camera. Spinning it in a better light would be a closer approximation. Once again, you can't call him a liar but you can certainly put his honor and integrity in play.

[isawasnake]

I don't think it's fair to say he's trying to cover it up since he's aware that everything is on camera. Spinning it in a better light would be a closer approximation. Once again, you can't call him a liar but you can certainly put his honor and integrity in play.

You certainly can, assuming you are willing to operate under the precedent that rulings from officials should be immediately met with self-disqualification when a bunch of people who have always been trying to beat and bring you down cry foul play.

[Forethat]

I don't think it's fair to say he's trying to cover it up since he's aware that everything is on camera. Spinning it in a better light would be a closer approximation. Once again, you can't call him a liar but you can certainly put his honor and integrity in play.

You certainly can, assuming you are willing to operate under the precedent that rulings from officials should be immediately met with self-disqualification when a bunch of people who have always been trying to beat and bring you down cry foul play.

You are wrong again. You don't operate under the proceedings or rulings from the tournament officials. You are expected to play according to the rules of golf. In this case Tiger didn't.

Trust me, there will be a decision added to this rule to prevent this spectacle from embarrassing this sport ever again.

One may wonder what on earth Tigers marker was doing. What was he up to?

[isawasnake]

I don't think it's fair to say he's trying to cover it up since he's aware that everything is on camera. Spinning it in a better light would be a closer approximation. Once again, you can't call him a liar but you can certainly put his honor and integrity in play.

You certainly can, assuming you are willing to operate under the precedent that rulings from officials should be immediately met with self-disqualification when a bunch of people who have always been trying to beat and bring you down cry foul play.

You are wrong again. You don't operate under the proceedings or rulings from the tournament officials. You are expected to play according to the rules of golf. In this case Tiger didn't.

Trust me, there will be a decision added to this rule to prevent this spectacle from embarrassing this sport ever again.

One may wonder what on earth Tigers marker was doing. What was he up to?

Not sure when this is going to sink in, but according to the actual officials (ie the people that matter), he did follow the rules. Well, he incurred a 2 stroke penalty, so they thought that was appropriate per his infraction I should say. The self-disqualification talk is all opinion, nothing more or less.

Not sure if you are aware, but that underlined sentence makes you sound quiet crazy. You are saying that the people who run and officiate the masters don't need to be listened to. I don't know what to say? Maybe here in Thailand, if the King tells you to sit, you think it would be appropriate to stand? If he tells you to leave Thailand, perhaps more appropriate to stay? lol.

[Forethat]

I don't think it's fair to say he's trying to cover it up since he's aware that everything is on camera. Spinning it in a better light would be a closer approximation. Once again, you can't call him a liar but you can certainly put his honor and integrity in play.

You certainly can, assuming you are willing to operate under the precedent that rulings from officials should be immediately met with self-disqualification when a bunch of people who have always been trying to beat and bring you down cry foul play.

You are wrong again. You don't operate under the proceedings or rulings from the tournament officials. You are expected to play according to the rules of golf. In this case Tiger didn't.

Trust me, there will be a decision added to this rule to prevent this spectacle from embarrassing this sport ever again.

One may wonder what on earth Tigers marker was doing. What was he up to?

Not sure when this is going to sink in, but according to the actual officials (ie the people that matter), he did follow the rules. Well, he incurred a 2 stroke penalty, so they thought that was appropriate per his infraction I should say. The self-disqualification talk is all opinion, nothing more or less.

Not sure if you are aware, but that underlined sentence makes you sound quiet crazy. You are saying that the people who run and officiate the masters don't need to be listened to. I don't know what to say? Maybe here in Thailand, if the King tells you to sit, you think it would be appropriate to stand? If he tells you to leave Thailand, perhaps more appropriate to stay? lol.

First of all, there's no such thing as self-disqualification. You can't disqualify yourself. You can WD, but not DQ yourself. So, you've made another incorrect statement...

Secondly, of course my opinion that Tiger should withdraw is an opinion.

Masters officials don't decide the rules. Masters officials decision is NOT the rules. PGA Referees will head up the refereeing. Masters officials rules the tournament, which is something completely different than playing and abiding by the rules.

As I said, there WILL be a decision in next issue of the decisions (look it up) that will prevent someone from protecting advertising money like this in the future.

[isawasnake]

"You are wrong again."

Not sure where I was wrong the first time. Are you talking about when I said Tiger does not have to disqualify himself after an official deems he isn't disqualified? lol

[isawasnake]

"As I said, there WILL be a decision in next issue of the decisions (look it up) that will prevent someone from protecting advertising money like this in the future."

But, that being true or not proves nothing per our discussion. We are talking mostly about whether tiger should play or not, and if we should judge him if he chooses to play.

After all this talk, what is your opinion? Stated concisely. Eg, the officials messed up, and Tiger should withdrawal or he's a no good cheat. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but sum it up for me. You will hold something against tiger of he simply plays, correct?

btw, i wanted to use withdrawal in place of dq instinctively, but it is hard to spell lol.

[Forethat]

"As I said, there WILL be a decision in next issue of the decisions (look it up) that will prevent someone from protecting advertising money like this in the future."

But, that being true or not proves nothing per our discussion. We are talking mostly about whether tiger should play or not, and if we should judge him if he chooses to play.

After all this talk, what is your opinion? Stated concisely. Eg, the officials messed up, and Tiger should withdrawal or he's a no good cheat. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but sum it up for me. You will hold something against tiger of he simply plays, correct?

btw, i wanted to use withdrawal in place of dq instinctively, but it is hard to spell lol.

My opinion is that this is a spectacle. Masters officials have created a home-made solution in which they change a ruling on a situation they have already deemed OK. For this reason they can't give him a 2-stroke penalty.

If Tiger is allowed to play - and he is - he should not have incurred the 2-stroke penalty. If he is penalised for an incorrect score card, the penalty is disqualification.

I guess most players (I have only spoken to two of them) are aware that the only reason Tiger is still in the tournament is because of his market value. One would guess Tiger knows this as well. My opinion is that Tiger should demonstrate that he is above this nonsense and withdraw, instead of allowing Masters to imply that Tiger is above golf.

I"m sure Tiger thinks "lol...what a bunch of idiots, but I'll play ball if they want me to"

[valrhona]

There's no debating that Woods broke rules. The penalty strokes are not the issue. It's the fact that he handed in an incorrect scorecard. In this case, players are always DQed, they made a judgment that in this particular situation, he "might not" have been aware his scorecard was incorrect hence the overlook of the rule.

The fact remains that the rule was broken, i.e. an incorrect score card was handed in. In virtually all cases, it results in disqualification but the tournament officials decided to make an exception for Woods.

In any case, he will not win and this will be another footnote tarnishing his already dubious image. He's the one who has to look in the mirror every day.

[isawasnake]

There's no debating that Woods broke rules. The penalty strokes are not the issue. It's the fact that he handed in an incorrect scorecard. In this case, players are always DQed, they made a judgment that in this particular situation, he "might not" have been aware his scorecard was incorrect hence the overlook of the rule.

The fact remains that the rule was broken, i.e. an incorrect score card was handed in. In virtually all cases, it results in disqualification but the tournament officials decided to make an exception for Woods.

In any case, he will not win and this will be another footnote tarnishing his already dubious image. He's the one who has to look in the mirror every day.

So, if he simply plays, and wins or not, his image will be tarnished in your eyes. Forethat seems to feel similarly.

I don't feel that way. Tiger, if you are reading this, you have my full support to keep playing after the tournament officials said you could, lol.

[Forethat]

What appears to be difficult to grasp (for some) is that there is a difference in what we COULD NOT have been aware of, and what is blatantly obvious. Rule 33-7 can only applied if it's the former. The fact that Tiger made a mistake and nobody realised it until a TV-viewer highlighted it, doesn't help him at all.

That someone is not aware of breaking the rules is not an option to apply rule 33-7, you are responsible for knowing and plying by the rules.

He has been incorrectly allowed to continue play in this years Masters. Tragically.