Should Thai People Be Able To Recognise Khmer ?

[Asiantravel]

I was given a T-shirt at a hotel I stayed in Phnom Penh which has Khmer writing on the front. What amazes me is that not one Thai that has commented on it seems to know that it is Khmer? They say what is that ? !

I'm not saying I would expect them to understand what the writing means but just that I would have thought they could recognise what language it is?

The reason I thought this is because I remember a Monk in Chiang Mai told me many words in Thai were actually derived from Khmer?

[HeavyDrinker]

It is "widely considered" (it's actually a fact but I'm not going there) that the Thai script was developed from - though not directly copied from - the Khmer alphabet/writing system.

There are a fair few similarities in the characters* , however you wouldn't get a Thai admitting that their writing system came from the Khmers in a million years even though the Khmers were 'writing' some 3-400 years before the Thai alphabet allegedly came into being...

While there are many similarities in the characters - Thai and Khmer share many 'roots' from Sanskrit and to a lesser extent Pali - the two are from completely different language families.

If you look at some early Thai writing systems which are now 'defunct' such as Lan Na (or more commonly Northern Thai) the similarities with Khmer become more apparent.

There is a can of worms being opened here and I'll leave this one to Richard....

However in answer to your question, Would a Thai be able to understand a Khmer in full flow as they may be able to follow a Lao? No. Would they be able to read Khmer as they may be able to read Lao...no...

[Asiantravel]

It is "widely considered" (it's actually a fact but I'm not going there) that the Thai script was developed from - though not directly copied from - the Khmer alphabet/writing system.

There are a fair few similarities in the characters* , however you wouldn't get a Thai admitting that their writing system came from the Khmers in a million years even though the Khmers were 'writing' some 3-400 years before the Thai alphabet allegedly came into being...

While there are many similarities in the characters - Thai and Khmer share many 'roots' from Sanskrit and to a lesser extent Pali - the two are from completely different language families.

If you look at some early Thai writing systems which are now 'defunct' such as Lan Na (or more commonly Northern Thai) the similarities with Khmer become more apparent.

There is a can of worms being opened here and I'll leave this one to Richard....

However in answer to your question, Would a Thai be able to understand a Khmer in full flow as they may be able to follow a Lao? No. Would they be able to read Khmer as they may be able to read Lao...no...

No, but I would have thought they would merely be able to recognise that it is the written language of the country “ next door “? Again, I'm not expecting them to understand the content

[HeavyDrinker]

There are elements of the script they may recognise but it's a whole different writing system and a whole different language family.

How many Englishmen do you know who can speak (or read) Welsh?? let alone understand it, or for that matter Gaelic? Or French...??

Whereas Lao is 'easy' for most Thais to read, speak and write as the twain are closely related, Khmer is miles away and the only links are through (mainly) religious and ceremonial Sanskrit content and a shared orthography (open for debate).

If you really want to see a Thai flummoxed, show them a page of Burmese....

[Morakot]

I would doubt that comparison, in all respect.

Many English people would recognise Welsh, if they see a written phrase.

[Morakot]

they say what is that ?

Very interesting!

Are you sure they did not recognise the script? The statement in the sense: "Why are you wearing this?"

[HeavyDrinker]

I would doubt that comparison, in all respect.

Many English people would recognise Welsh, if they see a written phrase.

Indeed but it's the same script.

Maybe a better contrast would be could a Hindi speaking Indian from Uttar Pradesh recognise Punjabi Gurmurkhi script off the cuff?

[Asiantravel]

they say what is that ?

Very interesting!

Are you sure they did not recognise the script? The statement in the sense: "Why are you wearing this?"

Believe me not one Thai person has recognised what language it is

[Asiantravel]

I would doubt that comparison, in all respect.

Many English people would recognise Welsh, if they see a written phrase.

Indeed but it's the same script.

Maybe a better contrast would be could a Hindi speaking Indian from Uttar Pradesh recognise Punjabi Gurmurkhi script off the cuff?

But look at everything you said in post #2 regarding similarities and that there is indeed more than just a connection between Khmer and Thai ? I would not be surprised to find a Hindi speaking Indian from Uttar Pradesh would be unable to recognise Punjabi Gurmurkhi. Why should they?

I am talking about learning the basic history of your own language which quite clearly from the responses I get doesn't seem to be covered at all in their education system?

[Richard W]

No, but I would have thought they would merely be able to recognise that it is the written language of the country “ next door “? Again, I'm not expecting them to understand the content

Thais also use the Khmer script - it's the Khom script, widely used for magical tattoos.

[Barabbas]

Richard, with all due respect, I seriously doubt that even widely used for magical tattoos script would be identified with something other, than magical tattoos with most of Thai people. Anyways, I've got a bunch of Thai friends, who are perfectly capable of identifying Khmer, Burmese, Lao, Singalese scripts with no problem. Thus OP's opinion is not quite statistically correct.

[wooloomooloo]

I agree, Barabbas. My wife can converse and recognise / understand the dialects and script for the region. She's never batted an eyelid.

[Mole]

I am also puzzled over that none of your Thai friends recognize the Khmer script. Most Thais should have no problems identifying Lao, Burmese and Khmer, although they'll usually won't be able to read it. (except for Lao, which I'm pretty sure most Thais should be more or less able to read, at least phonetically)

Regarding tattoos, I'm pretty sure most Thais who are vaguely interested in these things will know what kind of script is used on the particular tattoos. The most common is Khmer when done in north-east and Lanna when done in north.

[HeavyDrinker]

You seem to think that Thais should all be cunning linguists able to read/recognise/identify several different scripts just because there are linguistically linked .

How many different scripts can you read?

Can you read/pronounce/recognise Gaelic for instance?

FYI ^ Burmese is in no way linked to Thai in any way, shape or form.

[Mole]

NO

I base my assumption on that these are neighbouring countries and most Thais would have had some exposure to them at one point and should be able to recognise them. Especially Lao and most probably Khmer.

I think it is your own assumptions which are not quite right.

Besides, exactly what do you mean by "Gaelic" is it Irish, Scottish or Manx? Would you for example be able to distinguish between them?

Personally, I have had almost none exposure to the Gaelic languages, so I would not be able to at a glance recognise it, but I'm pretty sure an average Brit would recognise, albeit probably not distinguish exactly which of the Gaelic language.

Also, what does it has to do with this for me being a native Thai, to be able to recognise Gaelic has to do with Thais able to know their neighbour countries scrips??

Do you think an average Brit would recognise Cyrillic?

What would your response be if I came to a British forum and complained that none of my British friends knew my cool T-shirt from Kiev with Cyrillic written on it was and then assumed that this was the case with most Brits.
Would you rather question the intellectual capacity of the group of my friends instead perhaps???

Also, I'm probably not the average Thai, but I can identify many scripts and most written European language (or at least guess it's approximate geographical location) as well as identify many spoken language. However I don't have slightly clue what they mean.

[HeavyDrinker]

I base my assumption on that these are neighbouring countries and most Thais would have had some exposure to them at one point and should be able to recognise them. Especially Lao and most probably Khmer.

A nice well reasoned reply!! Thank you laddie!!

Exposure doesn't always equate to recognition though. I see where you are coming from, but it's really not that simple.

You are Thai - and obviously well educated - so you will know that the education system here isn't really geared up to giving too much credit to outside influences in modern Thai culture...? Any exposure to these outside influences is only ever explained as a result of Thai supremacy...

You seem to think your fellow countrymen should have the same international awareness that you have, but in truth, they simply don't. Ask a Thai where Gautama comes from...

(this is as far as I'll go on this one)

Also, I'm probably not the average Thai, but I can identify many scripts and most written European language (or at least guess it's aproximate geographical location) as well as identify many spoken language. However I don't have slightly clue what they mean.

Again, this is a fair point, however I wonder how many 'everyday' Englishmen could even really identify most Indo-European languages at a glance?

I'd love to see my old Dad tell me which language was German, French, Spanish or Italian were I to show him a multi-lingual menu...I'd be there all day...

Besides, exactly what do you mean by "Gaelic" is it Irish, Scottish or Manx? Would you for example be able to distinguish between them?

I could as I can speak Gaelic well thanks to an Irish Mother.

[Mole]

What if I then told you that you are wrong to base your judgment on that an average British would be able to recognize Cyrillic just because it's remotely related to the Roman alphabet. (In matter of fact about as related as Thai is to Khmer script [not language though which is perhaps as related as to German is to Hungarian])

After all I base my judgment on my own experience being a native Thai living in Britain and my handful of British friends not being able to identify my cool T-shirt with a bit stylized Cyrillic (although it may be quite artistically rendered, but I admit I'm not an expert on Khmer, I mean Cyrillic to be able to tell just how much stylized it is… who knows it may be so obscurely rendered that even an average Russian would have difficulty reading it…). This is why I can conclude that majority of British people are so ignorant to not know about this.

So nobody else, not even native British living in Britain would tell me otherwise, because as I said, your judgment must obviously be wrong and my own experience with my British native friends must be the norm.

For example, would a British be able to recognize written Malay? I thought not, so why should they also recognize Cyrillic??

[Mole]

Distinguish between written German and French should not be of any problem for the average European. Some people may have problems distinguishing between French, Spanish, Portuguese and Italian, or German and Dutch.

But this all depends on their interest and level of education. The higher educated the more likelihood is that they should know the difference of these languages.

[HeavyDrinker]

I take your point. However you say the 'average European' should be able to differentiate between French and German, but in reality I'd guess few actually could...

I'm merely trying to 'reverse the polarity' if you will and ask would the OP expect the same level of linguistic ability from his fellow Europeans as he expects from Thais.

Why should your average Bangkok Thai be able to recognise Khmer and Burmese or even Malay or Jawi for that matter, just because they are from neighbouring countries which share a degree of historical cultural merging?

I'm sure were the OP to go to Surin or Buriram he'd find a fair few Thais who could read his T-Shirt. My first Khmer teacher was a Thai lady from Nang Rong.

But this all depends on their interest and level of education. The higher educated the more likelihood is that they should know the difference of these languages.

There you have hit the nail on the head and I refer you to my earlier reply re: education...

What if I then told you that you are wrong to base your judgment on that an average British would be able to recognize Cyrillic just because it's remotely related to the Roman alphabet

I'd say Greek was a better call for being closely related to the Roman alphabet than Cyrillic which is actually itself based on Greek (Unical) but went the 'other way' if you will....

[Mole]

I know very well both are based on Greek, but I said remotely related similar to Thai and Khmer script which is also derived from a common ancestor.

[Mole]

We're not talking about that high level of education are we? Even in secondary school level people will get the option to have either French or German or Spanish and would be able to recognize them or at least tell which is and is not.

[Mole]

In Thailand naturally it would depend on your geographical location. People in northeast most likely would recognize Khmer, in north Burmese and in south Jawi.
But you are right, the ignorant BKK middle class people may probably have no reason to be so enlightened, even though most of them may think they know much much better than most of the so called low-educated folks (and un-educated farmers) in the country side…

[HeavyDrinker]

I know very well both are based on Greek, but I said remotely related similar to Thai and Khmer script which is also derived from a common ancestor.

I'm frankly a bit fogged as to your point here. Are you trying to say that most Thais should at least be able to recognise Khmer and if so, why?

They (Thai and Cambodian) are 2 completely, utterly different languages (though with a common influence) which is why many - wrongly - feel as the OP does.

The first time I went to Cambodia with my wife, she expected everyone to understand her....she wound up speaking English 99% of the time and she should have known better...

[HeavyDrinker]

In Thailand naturally it would depend on your geographical location. People in northeast most likely would recognize Khmer, in north Burmese and in south Jawi.

But you are right, the ignorant BKK middle class people may probably have no reason to be so enlightened, even though most of them may think they know much much better than most of the so called low-educated folks (and un-educated farmers) in the country side…

I'm not saying this is a question of ignorance. I'm just confused as to why the OP expects people to be able to recognise a different script to their own in spite of similarities and common influences.

[Mole]

Nobody in the world would be able to identify a different script just based on relation alone with no prior experience or exposure of it.

This is why I compared to somebody in Britain would be able to instantly recognize Cyrillic.

However, a person who has spent their life in Thailand would have one point or another have some exposure to it enough to be able to identify what it is.
This would be the same as somebody living in Britain would recognize Cyrillic or Gaelic for that matter because they would have had enough exposure of it to know by merely spending ones life in that country.

The same would be in Thailand that somebody would also know the other scripts. But a native East-ender may not really recognize Gaelic as much as a native Klong Toey residence would Khmer.

[Mole]

I think you may have misunderstood OP's intention. His question was not whether Thai should have automatically recognized these scripts based purely on their relationship. But that his assumption is that majority of Thais are so ignorant to know about this based on his experience that none of his friends was able to recognize his t-shirt has having Khmer script.

But as many in this thread (me included) has pointed out that this is not the case and most Thais should be able to identify the various neighboring scripts because they would have been exposed to them at one point in their life.

As I said, nobody would automatically be able to know such thing without prior knowledge about this first.

There is no way for somebody to be able to even guess that this is Greek or Khmer purely based on the similarities of them to Latin and Thai respectively. The only way to know is to have prior knowledge.

[Richard W]

For example, would a British be able to recognize written Malay? I thought not, so why should they also recognize Cyrillic??

Script recognition generally goes by shape. Cyrillic in capitals is recognised as looking like the Roman script until one suddenly notices things that don't fit. Strange styles make things look unusual. German black letters (as originally loved by the Nazis) actually look stranger than Cyrillic in capitals. I'm not sure one would immediately recognise a Thai Khuen font as being for the Lanna script - it lacks the swirls and swashes so beloved of the Northern Thai style.

For example, the Burmese script is generally recognised by its love of circles. As a result, I can rapidly recognise Burmese on banners as Burmese, though possibly I would possibly misrecognise other things as Burmese. Now, whether Thais can reliable tell Shan from Burmese is another matter - the tone marks are the obvious cue.

As to recognising Gaelic, it's probably more a matter of recognising Gaelic 'script'. In a normal face, the giveaway for Scots Gaelic is the great many 'h's. Welsh is recognised by its lack of vowels - 'w' and 'y' are very common vowels in Welsh. Any other cues rely on a knowledge of the languages, as when one tells Spanish, Portuguese and Italian apart.

[Mole]

At a glance Shan and Burmese should be more or less alike since it is after all the same characters, exept some additional letters respectively. I'd say it would be like comparing German to Polish or Farsi to Jawi.

Personally, I wouldn't be able to tell apart Farsi and Jawi, but Polish definitely look distinct enough. Shan and Burmese would also look the same to me.

I suspect this Khmer T-shirt may have been written in a stylized way, which may explain why people had difficulty recognizing it.

Some Thai fonts even makes the Thai characters almost look like Western characters.

S = ร

И = ท (like in the Thai Rak Thai logo)

W = พ

u = น

n = ท

l = เ

a = ล

Ո = ก (sans serif)

M = ต

[Nuna]

We don't use Khmer in daily life why should we recognize it? Most Khmer don't understand Thai either and we never had a problem.

Instead of expecting Thais to know Khmer, I think you should campaign on the right group such as foreigners who have lived here for years and have no interest in learning Thai. They are real ignorant people, not us.

[kriswillems]

I believe almost every Thai will recognize khmer script (but they can't read or understand it). Even I, just by living here for a few years I can recognize it and I've never read any book about it nor have I been to Cambodia . It's just around everywhere and it's often seen in a religious context. There's a huge difference between recognizing the script and knowing or understanding the language.