Fidel Castro Asks North Korea To Avoid War

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. Please stay on topic.

[harrry]

Too much like the Movie..The Mouse that Roared....... they gained much from losing that war.

Edited April 6, 2013 by harrry

[papa al]

The USA has bombed/shelled over 25 countries since WWII, killing well over 1,000,000 souls. Mostly women and children.

Cambodian and Laotian farmers, children, elephants, etc., are still being maimed/killed by US ordinance from the USA/Vietnamese war.

41 years ago American soldiers shot dead students (Kent State) who were peacefully protesting the illegal bombing of neutral Cambodia and Laos.

I am much more afraid of the US government than I am of North Korea.

[Hedghog]

At the end of the day it is only posturing.

Unless missiles are actually launched,there is no problem.

But NK has certainly got everyone's attention.

Surely the older wiser leaders of western countries,could of held council,with Kim Jong Un,shortly after he took up office.

Maybe he is so far backed into a corner by sanctions,against his country,and reared on missinformation, about the west,

That he feels a show of strength is his only option.

It begs the question what would you do in his shoes at his age?

[Credo]

At the end of the day it is only posturing.

Unless missiles are actually launched,there is no problem.

But NK has certainly got everyone's attention.

Surely the older wiser leaders of western countries,could of held council,with Kim Jong Un,shortly after he took up office.

Maybe he is so far backed into a corner by sanctions,against his country,and reared on missinformation, about the west,

That he feels a show of strength is his only option.

It begs the question what would you do in his shoes at his age?

I would be a lot less suicidal than he is.

[Hedghog]

It would be quite easy to relieve tensions in the area,if the USA ceased military exercises in SK,relieved some of the sanctions strangling the N.Koreans and give this young,man Kim Jong Un time to think and reassess.

Number one he is a young man,with tremendous responsibility that he needs time to adjust to.

As we all know when young we don't always make the wisest of decisions.

What would be the point of destroying,NK and creating disharmony with all the nations involved.

I am quite confused as to how you have turned this around so that it is now the U.S. that is threatening to destroy NK. The U.S. performs military operations all over the world, not to threaten, but to prepare for instances like now where NK is swinging a sword it does not even need to touch. Yes, I am an American, and have spent a great deal of my own tax money to help protect the world with our military stength. I would rather you just say "Thank You". If not for us, you would be speaking either German or Japanese.

Yes I can see you are confused,requesting a thank you.

[papa al]

At the end of the day it is only posturing.

Unless missiles are actually launched,there is no problem.

But NK has certainly got everyone's attention.

Surely the older wiser leaders of western countries,could of held council,with Kim Jong Un,shortly after he took up office.

Maybe he is so far backed into a corner by sanctions,against his country,and reared on missinformation, about the west,

That he feels a show of strength is his only option.

It begs the question what would you do in his shoes at his age?

The missiles are a minor concern.

NK has many thousand large artillery pieces capable on devastating Seoul in short order.

Nothing could stop it.

[Publicus]

I'm certain Castro has a vivid memory of the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962 when Soviet leader Nikita Krushechev tried to put his missiles in Cuba, missiles that could hit 90% of the United States. Pres Kennedy took the U.S. military worldwide to DEFCON 2 (Defense Condition). DEFCON 5 means situation normal; DEFCON 1 means everyone starts pushing all the red buttons. It was the most dangerous moment in world history so everyone got a close shave, Castro especially as Moscow left him out on the limb he'd crawled onto.

Castro now is old and dying but I'd make a wager he remembers the time, the moment, as if it were yesterday. With age the number one determinant in N and S Korean society, Kim Jong Un is the exception, but then Kim doesn't need to listen to anyone. Yes, Kim would be wise to consider Castro's statement to him.

Wasn't this the best thing that could happen to Castro, because part of the package that made the Russians remove their missiles was the guarantee that the US would leave him in peace for good? Anyway, I watched the movie about that crisis a couple of times, the one with Kevin Costner. It was all about Kruchev 'communicating' with Kennedy by odd means. Maybe this time some communication is also going on, in plain view but we don't understand it? Maybe Obama signaled earlier, 'Un, I need a reason to build up military strenght in the Pazific because I'm not comfortable with the Chinese. Can you make some noise? In return, we leave you in peace as long as you live'.

Cuban 'exiles' and other adventurers failed miserably in their attempt to invade Cuba in 1961 to try to drive Castro out of power. The attempted amphibious landings of the ragtag group at the Bay of Pigs was conceived during the Eisenhower-Nixon administration; the CIA was charged with organizing and executing the effort. Prez Kennedy inherited the scheme and conducted the disastrous operation on schedule, as planned. It never had a prayer of a chance to succeed.

I too saw the Hollywood movie, Thirteen Days in October which was a four-star movie well received by critics. However, it was a Hollywood production, not a BBC documentary. The movie omitted that it was unknown to the U.S. government at the time that small tactical nuclear missiles had already been installed in Cuba, missiles the U-2 spy planes had totally missed photographing due to their smallness and camouflage. So had Prez Kennedy acceded to the roaring and table pounding demands of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to invade Cuba immediately, the risk was extremely high U.S. invading forces would have been obliterated on the beaches by the Soviet tactical nukes and World War Z would have commenced.

The reality is however that after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, which occurred before the Cuban Missile Crisis, there never would have been any further attempts to invade Cuba, period. The United States, the CIA in particular, got burned severely in the eyes of the world for the whacky invasion attempt and forever swore off such overt use of force to try to dispose of Castro. The fiasco also alerted any would-be president of the huge cost to his own prestige globally and awful embarrassment domestically of such a perilous mindset.

The present N Korean situation has similar inherent risks of miscalculation or incomplete information. Take the two Aegis class destroyers deployed off the Korean peninsula - Aegis class destroyers are anti missile warships. There's presently a great but not too noisy commotion over this in Washington because SECDEF Chuck Hegel didn't know of the deployment, never signed off on the deployment, which in the absence of a signed order by proper Pentagon civilian authority makes the deployment an unauthorized one. The White House is keeping mum which means the commander in chief didn't know of it either until after the fact. It turns out the naval commander in chief of the Asia-pacific, at Pearl Harbor, and another four star, an army general agreed themselves the deployment was a good idea.

The direct consequence of the destroyers' presence off the Korean peninsula changes the entire nature of the U.S. response to Kim et al. The flyovers of (two) B-2 nuclear capable stealth bombers, several B-52 bombers, F-22 fighter planes were symbolic acts, sort of like clenching one's fist when the lady of the house momentarily gets under our skin. The presence of the Aegis destroyers however is a real deployment that puts in place two super modern high tech warships. This only heats up the N Korean situation more and increases room for error simply by adding more physical presence of weaponry assets to the hottest place in the world one can find. It just is highly doubtful Secretary of Defense Hegel or Prez Obama would have approved, i.e., signed off on this order or any order like it.

So now think of all those PRchinese troops assembled on the N Korean border, the N Korean troops all psyked up, S Korean troops and forces on high alert, other U.S. forces in S Korea also on high alert; U.S. forces in Japan on immediate standby, simply one highly excited commanding officer of any side etc and we see how easily the already existing chaos could quickly become World War Z.

It would be quite easy to relieve tensions in the area,if the USA ceased military exercises in SK,relieved some of the sanctions strangling the N.Koreans and give this young,man Kim Jong Un time to think and reassess.

Number one he is a young man,with tremendous responsibility that he needs time to adjust to.

As we all know when young we don't always make the wisest of decisions.

What would be the point of destroying,NK and creating disharmony with all the nations involved.

It might be quite easy for Kim to shut up and go watch Dennis Rodman highlight tapes in the comfy TV room of his palace in Pyongyang so that the people who started it can quit their lunacy.

The main reason for the Cuban missile crisis was that Russia wanted the USA to remove it's missiles from Turkey, which borders Russia. Maybe NK are doing something similar because it is annoyed with the USA playing war games on it's border once again.

I think myself that the new leader wants to bring NK in from the cold, but has to thread very carefully. Just because he is leader, doesn't mean he can do what he likes. I'd like to see an invitation to talk extended to NK where an agreement to lift sanctions and help NK rebuild it's infrastructure is an outcome.

You are 100% speculating that Kim Jon Gun [sic] would delight the Boyz in Beijing and, down the road the people of N Korea also, by taking Deng Xiao Peng as his model of economic reform. The facts before us are the reality we need to deal with, and the facts are that Kim Jong Un emulates his father and his grandfather in the Kim dynasty rule of N Korea. The principal reason Kim and the N Korean military and other elites are jumping up and down flapping their arms hollering is that Prez Obama has introduced a new sanctions strategy that focuses on the leaders of a country and much less on the population.

Obama and his national security team at the White House are well aware of the reputable studies done over decades by reputable groups, such as Amnesty International to name one, that all previous sanctions regimes hurt the populations much more than their rulers. Obama is hitting the ayatollahs in Iran in their wallets and bank accounts; he's now hitting Kim where it hurts, i.e., no more caviar, illicit cash, unfettered secret Swiss and offshore bank accounts; no more living high off the hog while the N Korean people are treated like animals instead of the human beings that they are.

[Publicus]

I'm certain Castro has a vivid memory of the Cuban Missile Crisis of October 1962 when Soviet leader Nikita Krushechev tried to put his missiles in Cuba, missiles that could hit 90% of the United States. Pres Kennedy took the U.S. military worldwide to DEFCON 2 (Defense Condition). DEFCON 5 means situation normal; DEFCON 1 means everyone starts pushing all the red buttons. It was the most dangerous moment in world history so everyone got a close shave, Castro especially as Moscow left him out on the limb he'd crawled onto.

Castro now is old and dying but I'd make a wager he remembers the time, the moment, as if it were yesterday. With age the number one determinant in N and S Korean society, Kim Jong Un is the exception, but then Kim doesn't need to listen to anyone. Yes, Kim would be wise to consider Castro's statement to him.

I think he also understands that if anything was to happen, he would be involved one way or another.

NK allies would kind of need to help( i am sure they have some agreements) and NK actions at this time do not achieve or prove anything other than ego driven funny looking little man bravado

Who are N Korea's allies? Beijing doesn't want anything to do with Kim and gang. Beijing and N Korea haven't been even de facto allies for a good period of years, drifting apart to the point there now is a schism. Allies? If Castro isn't a N Korean ally, then no one is, and Castro is only trying to give a word from the wise about this nuclearmania in Pyongyang..

I am not on NK staff, so could not tell you what packs they have and what agreements, but rest assured they do

N Korea seems to have few, if any, formal pacts with other governments.

However, let's not overlook Albania, that center of civilization European commentators call the "North Korea of Europe."

On the 100th anniversary last November of Albanian independence, the Kims of the North sent a special congratulations and warm wishes for an equally happy and equally prosperous Albania.

You really don't want to miss this one: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/north-korea-s-leader-wishes-albania-prosperity

In the PRChina too anytime you press the button of a CCP member you'll get in the recitation that Albania is a part of what the Boyz in Beijing like to teach is the "International," all of which comfortably can fit into a phone booth.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Publicus

[F430murci]

At the end of the day it is only posturing.

Unless missiles are actually launched,there is no problem.

But NK has certainly got everyone's attention.

Surely the older wiser leaders of western countries,could of held council,with Kim Jong Un,shortly after he took up office.

Maybe he is so far backed into a corner by sanctions,against his country,and reared on missinformation, about the west,

That he feels a show of strength is his only option.

It begs the question what would you do in his shoes at his age?

The missiles are a minor concern.

NK has many thousand large artillery pieces capable on devastating Seoul in short order.

Nothing could stop it.

"Devastating Seoul," where did you get that from? NK? Kind of lack these nut cases talking about raining jihad or fire down upon US and destroying us. Not reality.

The so called experts here, many of which are from that region, seem to offer a different perspective. Seoul will take hits from some crappy outdated, unguided crap which will be bad, but they seem to indicate anything but devastating occurrences.

[Bwanatickey]

Like anybody listens to Fidel Castro except Sean Penn & Oliver Stone...

And Michael Moore.

And Robert Mugabe,who invited NK soldiers to exterminate the Matabele tribe. Nelson Mandela who is friends with Castro.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[isawasnake]

A result of the Cuban Missile "Crisis" was that Castro negotiated a non-invasion agreement for his country. I can't think of anything better that a leader could do for a people than to guarantee a country like the US wont invade your homeland anymore. Cuban Missile Crisis - Fidel Castro 1, USA 0. USA is so mad about losing that they still keep the embargo -- and perhaps worse, the Cuban propaganda machine -- in full force.

History has proven those with nuclear arms tend to get what they want, and some countries want to be the only ones to get what they want.

I don't blame any of these smaller, developing nations for what they are doing. In my opinion, the only sensible way to ask a sovereign nation to stop developing nuclear weapons is to first destroy or neutralize your own cache of them. There has only been one nation to have used them, so all these arguments about "diabolical leaders" kinda fly right out the window.

Edited April 7, 2013 by isawasnake

[F430murci]

A result of the Cuban Missile "Crisis" was that Castro negotiated a non-invasion agreement for his country. I can't think of anything better that a leader could do for a people than to guarantee a country like the US wont invade your homeland anymore. Cuban Missile Crisis - Fidel Castro 1, USA 0. USA is so mad about losing that they still keep the embargo -- and perhaps worse, the Cuban propaganda machine -- in full force.

History has proven those with nuclear arms tend to get what they want, and some countries want to be the only ones to get what they want.

I don't blame any of these smaller, developing nations for what they are doing. In my opinion, the only sensible way to ask a sovereign nation to stop developing nuclear weapons is to first destroy or neutralize your own cache of them. There has only been one nation to have used them, so all these arguments about "diabolical leaders" kinda fly right out the window.

And Castro's decision created a great economy and an environment where his people could really prosper. News flash, US was not looking to bomb out or take over Cuba and could have at any time over the years. Cuba is great country with so much potential that has been severly repressed by Castro. As soon as he is dead and Cuba and US redevelop a relationship, Cuba and now poor Cubans living in shacks with nothing to eat will suddenly have a great standard of living.

Edited April 7, 2013 by F430murci

[Payboy]

Fidel Castro asks North Korea to avoid war

Guy deserves a cigar.

[Publicus]

Fidel Castro asks North Korea to avoid war

Guy deserves a cigar.

He's made a fortune selling his fine cigars to the Kims but that's one of the new strategy of sanctions Prez Obama has instituted and implemented, which is the main reason Kim and his gang are squealing like stuck pigs (and this comment has nothing to do with dead pigs, ducks or humans floating in every kind of waterway or body of water in the PRChina).

[Scott]

This topic is about North Korea, not about Cuba. Please stay on topic.

[ChinChanGamble]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking!

Never realised they were an ally before

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Publicus]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ChinChanGamble]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Apologies but your emoticon makes no sense to me, are you for or against my statement??

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Publicus]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Apologies but your emoticon makes no sense to me, are you for or against my statement??

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I regret to say your statement made no sense to me. It simply immediately followed my post and just hangs out in that position in the thread. So let's move on to bigger and better things, as some people say.

[Scott]

It makes no sense to me, either.

[Scott]

Content in another thread about North Korea has been deleted. Please do not post identical material in different threads.

[Fozfromoz]

Let's take a look at possible friends of NK--and in some cases, they are not really friends, just enemies of the US.

Myanmar--probably not anymore since they have moved in a different direction.

Iran--Maybe, but probably not likely to break a fingernail helping NK. They want a bit of technology and stuff that's hard to get, but I doubt they consider themself a real friend.

Venezuela--Maybe, but with the death of it's former leader, probably not likely to go very far out on a limb.

Am I missing anyone?

I think it's fair to say that if NK had a party and invited their friends, a suitable venue to hold the party would be a phone booth.

[folium]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Apologies but your emoticon makes no sense to me, are you for or against my statement??

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I regret to say your statement made no sense to me. It simply immediately followed my post and just hangs out in that position in the thread. So let's move on to bigger and better things, as some people say.

Responding to an earlier post of yours...

It seems that the US has at least 4 Aegis-equipped destroyers in the vicinity of S.Korea (USS Fitzgerald, Lassen, Decatur and John McCain), which stayed on after the recent exercises. S Korea has also deployed 2 of its Aegis-equipped destroyers, 1 to each coastline. Not quite sure where you get the idea that these were deployed without the knowledge of the White House or Pentagon, source please?

Also without being too nerdy about it, the US were aware of the presence of the Sopka anti-shipping missiles and Luna/Frog short range launchers, see photos #11 & 46 in the link below. What the US were not aware of at the time was the presence of nuclear warheads for the Luna/Frogs on Cuba in 1962.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/photos.htm

[I Like Thai]

Why is it acceptable for the USA to test ICBM's, but not NK ??

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/07/north-korea-propoganda-victory-icbm_n_3031104.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The US military has cancelled a planned test of a Minuteman 3 intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) over fears of escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula.

The test, which was due to take place next week from the Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, has been delayed for a month following a series of increasingly bellicose threats from Pyongyang.

According to a US official, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel decided to cancel the test on Friday fearing that a launch in the current political climate may risk escalating tensions further, a move that is likely to be used as a propaganda victory by Kim Jong-un.

[Credo]

I suppose it all depends on whose air space you are overflying. I think Japan didn't care for one of the last tests done by NK.

[F430murci]

Why is it acceptable for the USA to test ICBM's, but not NK ??

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/07/north-korea-propoganda-victory-icbm_n_3031104.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The US military has cancelled a planned test of a Minuteman 3 intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) over fears of escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula.

The test, which was due to take place next week from the Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, has been delayed for a month following a series of increasingly bellicose threats from Pyongyang.

According to a US official, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel decided to cancel the test on Friday fearing that a launch in the current political climate may risk escalating tensions further, a move that is likely to be used as a propaganda victory by Kim Jong-un.

Because sometimes life just isn't fair.

[Publicus]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Apologies but your emoticon makes no sense to me, are you for or against my statement??

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I regret to say your statement made no sense to me. It simply immediately followed my post and just hangs out in that position in the thread. So let's move on to bigger and better things, as some people say.

Responding to an earlier post of yours...

It seems that the US has at least 4 Aegis-equipped destroyers in the vicinity of S.Korea (USS Fitzgerald, Lassen, Decatur and John McCain), which stayed on after the recent exercises. S Korea has also deployed 2 of its Aegis-equipped destroyers, 1 to each coastline. Not quite sure where you get the idea that these were deployed without the knowledge of the White House or Pentagon, source please?

Also without being too nerdy about it, the US were aware of the presence of the Sopka anti-shipping missiles and Luna/Frog short range launchers, see photos #11 & 46 in the link below. What the US were not aware of at the time was the presence of nuclear warheads for the Luna/Frogs on Cuba in 1962.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/photos.htm

I'm concerned that this discussion more appropriately belongs in the North Korea article than in the Fidel Castro-N Korea thread.

Regardless, the two links below are the sources of the information I wrote about and which you rightfully express a keen interest in, i.e., that no Pentagon civilian authority signed off on the deployment of two destroyers, the McCain and the Decatur, as a part of the U.S.'s response to the N Korean missile warhead Kim Jon Gun [sic]. The first link speaks most specifically and directly to this issue.

In the links below, from Foreign Policy magazine online, owned by the Washington Post Co., Kevin Baron reports on the two destroyers in his blog E-Ring, which promotes itself as a source from "Inside the Pentagon's Power Corridors." As you likely know, the Pentagon's E-Ring contains the office of the SECDEF and the most senior civilian and military officials, i.e., the strategic policy makers, inter alia those who sign off on major documents.

Baron also wrote a piece concerning the "recent exercises" you referenced above, named Operation "Foal Eagle," which is an annual two month military exercise of the joint U.S.- Korean forces command. Foal Eagle included four Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyers -- the USS Lassen (DDG 82), USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62), USS John S. McCain (DDG 56), and USS McCampbell (DDG 85) which are a part of the Japan-based Destroyer Squadron (DESRON) 15, For the benefit of the many unfamiliar with Foal Eagle, the second link below is Baron's piece about Foal Eagle itself.

http://e-ring.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/04/04/who_exactly_ordered_those_destroyers_to_korea

http://e-ring.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/04/03/what_is_foal_eagle

It seems there is a kerfuffle in Washington about the McCain and the Decatur being tasked in the present N Korea crisis. The McCain was already in the immediate region as a part of Foal Eagle. The McCain in fact had completed a solid two week 24/7 period of Foal Eagle activity and had returned to its home port in Japan, only to be recalled specifically for the current crisis - the question in Washington is on whose and what authority was the McCain sent to join the U.S. N Korea crisis response strategy and its tactical response. The only authorization the McCain had had was to participate in Operation Foal Eagle.

However, the Decatur had not involved in Foal Eagle. It had been in the western Pacific on its way to its home port, San Diego from the Arabian/Persian Gulf. The question concerning the Decatur is none the less the same, i.e., who signed off to order the Decatur to respond specifically to the crisis? And who signed off on orders to the Fitzgerald to relieve the Decatur so the Decatur could specifically join the N Korea crisis response?

Ship deployments are not normally reviewed and signed off on by the SECDEF or the POTUS, the point being however the N Korea crisis is anything but a normal time or circumstance. While the annual, routine, Operation Foal Eagle was under the U.S. Asia-Pacific Command at Pearl Harbor, the North Korean crisis is an entirely different matter involving specific threats of a nuclear nature by the warhead Kim Jong Eun (the E being the preferred transliteration by U.S. military philologists).

These are the kind of messy squabbles we get in a democracy in which civilian control of the military is a paramount principle, so it's the matter of principle in a given crisis, specifically the N Korea nuclear crisis, that is creating waves in the Pentagon's E-Ring, in the White House and among Washington's military observers, writers and assorted other like experts.

[Publicus]

Very easy to sound wise when you say what everyone is thinking! Never realised they were an ally before Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Apologies but your emoticon makes no sense to me, are you for or against my statement??

Sent from my LT26i using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I well recognize TFV still has some technical problems with its old new format.

However, the quote above, "Publicus, on 07 April 2013 - 09:28 said:" is not a statement made by me. It is a statement made by you, ChinChinGamble in Post #48 of this thread.

In other words ChinChinGamble, you are quoting yourself, attributing the quote to me, and responding to your own quote that you wrongly attribute to me.

It would seem many such misquotes that occur at TVF originate in one of two ways: Either the poster is using his iPad while outside and on the run, or forumists such as myself find we are trying to respond from our pc to more quotes at one time than the system can process.

Mods kindly take note, thx.