Fuses, Breakers, Amps, Max Load... Crossy!

[Mudcrab]

Ah
but when Crossy is the CEO of a company in Oz (and more countries
progressively......sick of people dying by electrocution) when things go
pear shaped and in front of the judge...he will have to know the Standards,
Regulations. and Codes of Conduct pertinent to the case. It doesn't matter if
he is the electrical engineer, Chief Engineer, PhD or CEO at that point. trust
me ...I grew up in the era of 3 or 4 people getting crushed to deaths in mines
...that doesn't happen anymore in the developed world. If you can accept this,
and I guess you do, by running a brothel, nothing will change

[jbrain]

Personally I prefer to have the main breaker open and locked and (if possible) the reassuring bulge of the fuse in my pocket.

Failing that, a neon screwdriver and/or a voltstick on the relevant circuit (verify it's working by testing the incoming supply).

Even then I treat every wire as potentially hot and avoid touching exposed copper, I've been bitten too often.

Apart from the required periodic calibration and possibly monthly confidence checks, does anyone in the sparking industry check his meter other than when it gives an unexpected reading?

Most likely they don't...never implied they did. Just stated standard procedure. can't agree with the neon screwdriver though...too easy to swap the resistor/neon for a glass fuse....as we all did for a laugh back in the good old days. I'll stick with a Fluke.

I guess the other point to make and, I'm sure you will agree, is that when a fault is found in an electrical install, it is very often the case that there are other faults also. This bloke needs to have the whole installation checked out by someone qualified and experienced.

this bloke holds a doctorate in physics as well as a Master's degree in mechanical engineering and was for nearly two decades sole project manager in half a dozen countries building and starting more than half a dozen industrial projects none smaller in value than several hundred million Dollars. and this bloke never worried about a single tripped fuse.

p.s. this bloke also is highly amused when teasing Brits or Aussies concerning their paranoia about electrical danger. he also laughs out

loudly (or feels like crying) when he looks at British Engineering such

as a simple socket.

Crossy is well aware of the above-mentioned and never held it against me.

Naam, I know you are a smart man, but I'm still curious why you ordered off grid inverters to protect your electronics. I'm sure you are aware that the inverter you pictured does not auto switch, so does not protect anything.,

Edited April 12, 2013 by jbrain

[Naam]

Personally I prefer to have the main breaker open and locked and (if possible) the reassuring bulge of the fuse in my pocket.

Failing that, a neon screwdriver and/or a voltstick on the relevant circuit (verify it's working by testing the incoming supply).

Even then I treat every wire as potentially hot and avoid touching exposed copper, I've been bitten too often.

Apart from the required periodic calibration and possibly monthly confidence checks, does anyone in the sparking industry check his meter other than when it gives an unexpected reading?

Most likely they don't...never implied they did. Just stated standard procedure. can't agree with the neon screwdriver though...too easy to swap the resistor/neon for a glass fuse....as we all did for a laugh back in the good old days. I'll stick with a Fluke.

I guess the other point to make and, I'm sure you will agree, is that when a fault is found in an electrical install, it is very often the case that there are other faults also. This bloke needs to have the whole installation checked out by someone qualified and experienced.

this bloke holds a doctorate in physics as well as a Master's degree in mechanical engineering and was for nearly two decades sole project manager in half a dozen countries building and starting more than half a dozen industrial projects none smaller in value than several hundred million Dollars. and this bloke never worried about a single tripped fuse.

p.s. this bloke also is highly amused when teasing Brits or Aussies concerning their paranoia about electrical danger. he also laughs out

loudly (or feels like crying) when he looks at British Engineering such

as a simple socket.

Crossy is well aware of the above-mentioned and never held it against me.

Naam, I know you are a smart man, but I'm still curious why you ordered off grid inverters to protect your electronics. I'm sure you are aware that the inverter you pictured does not auto switch, so does not protect anything.,

by the way, they are not off-grid but always on-grid routing grid power through the inverters. like my existing inverters the new ones do auto switch range, 15-20 milliseconds, according to the manufacturer. none of our computers and modem/routers ever blinked an eye when a phase failed. by the way, i did not install them to protect our electronics but to be able using the PCs or the entertainment electronics such as TV.

however, the overall paramount supreme reason to install the first set was to run the two pumps which supply our house with water because we have neither a gravity supply option nor is continous pressured city water available. without electricity our options would be limited (as already mentioned) "get bucket > fill bucket with pool water > flush toilet > listen to the bitching and threats of the Lady who happens to be my wife".

[Naam]

JBrain,

one of the learned sparkies is (pending his confirmation) visiting me monday april 22 late morning. what if you join us? we could make him drunk and then, under threat of torture, force him to reveal to us all sparky secrets.

not only the ones which are true and real but also the false ones the sparkies use to bullshit and scare us apprentices shitless such as "a tripped fuse means your home will burn down, the slave girls you were lusting after killed, the wine and liquor you cherished will evaporate and immigration will refuse to extend a visa for a homeless poor expat."

what you say? PM me.

no it's not Crossy who is busy explaining sparky secrets in a tongue twisting language called "Kannada" in a far away country.

[Mudcrab]

JBrain,

one of the learned sparkies is (pending his confirmation) visiting me monday april 22 late morning. what if you join us? we could make him drunk and then, under threat of torture, force him to reveal to us all sparky secrets.

not only the ones which are true and real but also the false ones the sparkies use to bullshit and scare us apprentices shitless such as "a tripped fuse means your home will burn down, the slave girls you were lusting after killed, the wine and liquor you cherished will evaporate and immigration will refuse to extend a visa for a homeless poor expat."

what you say? PM me.

no it's not Crossy who is busy explaining sparky secrets in a tongue twisting language called "Kannada" in a far away country.

You are in Thailand...then you are not an electrical apprentice and with your attitude will never be one here or anywhere else. One of the attributes I look for in an apprentice is the ability to listen and absorb information. My job description also includes the requirement to investigate electrical "incidents". Not much fun interviewing a bloke in hospital who has his eyes fused closed due to arc flash burns let me tell you.

Take the p!ss all you want mai pen rai. but please don't be the first RIPper to give your condolences when you hear about the next hotel/club/brothel that burns down.

Oh and by the way ...did you know it is the norm that when an insurance company investigator cannot find the root cause of a fire it is then assumed to be a electrical fault. And often is. If you cannot prove that the work was done to Standard by a qualified electrician then you can kiss your insurance payout goodbye.

On a recent job the fault came down to one of the electrically powered odour generators..the things you plug into a power point....smellys we call them. The only evidence left was the two prongs in the power point...everything else burnt or smoke damaged. Difficult one to find.....but not impossible when you know your craft.

Do all your own electrical work....keeps me employed(after the fact)....have a happy Songkran

[Crossy]

Whilst we hear what you're saying Mudcrab (wise words indeed), we are in Thailand where qualified domestic sparkies are at a premium to non-existent. The truly good ones with the proper kit are on major projects or O&G and earning many times the rate that most locals are prepared to pay.

We went through four (actually five but one ran away before starting) sparkies when wiring our new home. I provided full wiring schedules and all the parts, but the first chap (who the contractor subsequently fired) just followed his own mind. Unfortunately I was away working during the critical phase and the next three (and myself) spent many hours sorting the issues he introduced. We still have several borrowed neutrals, mostly on the lighting, which I'll fix one day. None had even basic test gear (neon screwdriver was the best) and didn't know how to use a lamp and battery to trace a circuit, it's truly scary.

The only option for many of those who worry about the quality of domestic installations here is to DIY, and many come to this forum for advice on the best way to do the job using their limited resources, experience and limitations as to what's available here.

What we try to do is help those who want to be safer get there without expensive (and often unavailable) test gear by taking a pragmatic approach. We have no real regulations to follow so have to adapt BS7671 and (probably better as Aussie wiring is nearer to the local practices) AS3000 to the real local world.

Your input is more than welcomed, but (sadly) to suggest getting a qualified electrician to sort the issues simply isn't helping in this instance.

[jbrain]

Naam, I know you are a smart man, but I'm still curious why you ordered off grid inverters to protect your electronics. I'm sure you are aware that the inverter you pictured does not auto switch, so does not protect anything.,

by the way, they are not off-grid but always on-grid routing grid power through the inverters. like my existing inverters the new ones do auto switch range, 15-20 milliseconds, according to the manufacturer. none of our computers and modem/routers ever blinked an eye when a phase failed. by the way, i did not install them to protect our electronics but to be able using the PCs or the entertainment electronics such as TV.

however, the overall paramount supreme reason to install the first set was to run the two pumps which supply our house with water because we have neither a gravity supply option nor is continous pressured city water available. without electricity our options would be limited (as already mentioned) "get bucket > fill bucket with pool water > flush toilet > listen to the bitching and threats of the Lady who happens to be my wife".

I don't want to get in an argument with you Naam, as it is near impossible to find the manufacturer of the inverter you posted a picture as all the links lead to Amazon.de and they give little info.

Anyway I would be much interested to examine the inverters once they arrive as I'm working on a similar set up, but I have never found a inverter without built in charger, that has an auto switch. And it's clear from the listing that no charger is built in.

By the way, have you read the customer review complaint about this item ?

http://www.amazon.de/3000W-6000W-spannungswandler-Wechselrichter-power-Inverter/dp/B007TZWY58

As for your invitation, how about me being the one who's made drunk ? Sounds far more interesting than listening to a sparkie

[Forkinhades]

^

[Forkinhades]

This mere sparky has it seems found the solution to why the thingy transient device developes a fault. Which the degree masters could not it seems .

So let the drunken BS commence

Much rather call myself a test engineer.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Forkinhades

[Crossy]

This mere sparky has it seems found the solution to why the thingy transient device developes a fault. Which the degree masters could not it seems .

So let the drunken BS commence

Much rather call myself a test engineer.

Well done Forky, one assumes you are actually looking at the item in question not just photos

And the fault is / was??

[Forkinhades]

^ sorry forgot to mention that it does need to be verified. Was not having a pop at you

[Naam]

Naam, I know you are a smart man, but I'm still curious why you ordered off grid inverters to protect your electronics. I'm sure you are aware that the inverter you pictured does not auto switch, so does not protect anything.,

by the way, they are not off-grid but always on-grid routing grid power through the inverters. like my existing inverters the new ones do auto switch range, 15-20 milliseconds, according to the manufacturer. none of our computers and modem/routers ever blinked an eye when a phase failed. by the way, i did not install them to protect our electronics but to be able using the PCs or the entertainment electronics such as TV.

however, the overall paramount supreme reason to install the first set was to run the two pumps which supply our house with water because we have neither a gravity supply option nor is continous pressured city water available. without electricity our options would be limited (as already mentioned) "get bucket > fill bucket with pool water > flush toilet > listen to the bitching and threats of the Lady who happens to be my wife".

I don't want to get in an argument with you Naam, as it is near impossible to find the manufacturer of the inverter you posted a picture as all the links lead to Amazon.de and they give little info.

Anyway I would be much interested to examine the inverters once they arrive as I'm working on a similar set up, but I have never found a inverter without built in charger, that has an auto switch. And it's clear from the listing that no charger is built in.

By the way, have you read the customer review complaint about this item ?

http://www.amazon.de/3000W-6000W-spannungswandler-Wechselrichter-power-Inverter/dp/B007TZWY58

As for your invitation, how about me being the one who's made drunk ? Sounds far more interesting than listening to a sparkie

your wish is my command. you want to get drunk? no problem! my wife's driver will be on stand by to drive you home. now make up your mind. will you join us? i have suggested to "Fork-in-Hell" 1000hrs for breakfast before we open the first bottle.

[Naam]

This mere sparky has it seems found the solution to why the thingy transient device developes a fault. Which the degree masters could not it seems .

So let the drunken BS commence

Much rather call myself a test engineer.

Well done Forky, one assumes you are actually looking at the item in question not just photos

And the fault is / was??

Forky will have the opportunity to take a look at the item in question. but not before the first bottle is sampled. that way he will overlook that i have hard wired the casings of the "thingy" with 400 volts which will cause a fuse to trip at his first touch. then my standing by lawyers will make him sign a letter of indemnity confessing and stating that his approach was the reason for all evil happening in the electrical system of an apprentice.

Forky! you haven't answered my suggestion. breakfast at 1000hrs or yes?

[Naam]

By the way, have you read the customer review complaint about this item ?

i had one unit tested in Germany before i ordered the other units. it performed without any problems. in two weeks i'll know more.

[Forkinhades]

^ check your inbox

[Naam]

And it's clear from the listing that no charger is built in.

that's what i wanted because the built-in chargers of my present units are giving me problems. i run two of them with external chargers, the one which serves the study of my wife is working without problems since more than 4 years except that the batteries need a topping quite often because the charger does not switch off.

[Naam]

^ check your inbox

checked and answered!

[Crossy]

^ sorry forgot to mention that it does need to be verified. Was not having a pop at you

No pop detected, what do you reckon it is?

[Forkinhades]

I have suggested in previous posts, that when the voltage goes +- 10% thus switching the relay the fault is on the relay or the monitoring device outputs.

I am not reading any other suggestions, and welcome any thoughts.

[Naam]

Dear LORD,

please do not punish me too hard for causing terrible hardship and sleepless nights to a bunch of honest and brave sparkies who did not commit any other crime than trying to answer the stupid question of a technical apprentice.

mea culpa! i promise i won't do it again

[Crossy]

No issue Naam, just don't pump too much Archa into Forky, that trident can become a lethal weapon

[Forkinhades]

Archa Archa, yes time for one, im off

[Naam]

who or what is Archa?

[Forkinhades]

Local brew!

[doglover]

Local brew!

Please do a bring a bottle for Naam and post a photo of his initial sampling reaction.

[Forkinhades]

what a picture that has conjured up

[Naam]

Local brew!

to extinct termites and cockroaches

[Mudcrab]

I know neons are out of favour with the UK sparking community, mainly due to the potential for shock if one gets damaged or damp, they are however a simple and cheap way of proving live (not dead). Voltsticks are the better alternative, but they still only prove live.

It seems that Naam only has an occasional fuse failure and whilst it would be interesting to know why I doubt there is anything fundamentally amiss with his undervolt arrangement.

Do note that the largest single-phase supply available in many parts of Thailand is 45A. Even a modest 'farang' family house with a few A/Cs and on-demand water heaters will be pushing that, 3-phase domestic is far more common here than in the civilised world.

Ok I understand why three phase now.

One thing that has been puzzling me is why would you install the UV relays so far (I think 65m was mentioned) from the load. It is possible that the appliances are experiencing under voltage inside the premises but the UV relays are not sensing the voltage drop out near the feed in. Doesn't take much resistance to drop the voltage at the premises, and given that a fuse holder had previously melted it could well be worth checking (another hot joint somewhere?).Checking the voltage at a power outlet something the OP could do himself. The OP stated also that he had had problems with a charging system for his UPS. A clue perhaps?

Don't have AS3000 with me (it is back in Oz) to verify the cable sizing is correct.

I had a curious one many years ago with a friends washing machine. He took it to the repair shop many times (I avoid appliances like the plague). Every time they could find no fault. I decided to test the voltage inside the house....180V when it should have been 240V. Nothing else in the house was affected. The lights may have been but since they were all running at 180V there was no point of reference.

[Forkinhades]

good points muddy.

65m does seem a little to worry about. So just UV relays? the unit is measuring +-10%. These are extra factors that can be looked into, but logically the control fuse is blowing, and within each control ciruit is just the monitoring equipment, UV relays, and the coil to the contactor. So why is just 1 phase blowing, and indeed the same fuse, whereas the other 2 are not affected?

If the UPS is 65m away aswell then that would be worrying. The whole thing needs to be looked at, and after 4 bottles of chardonay

[jbrain]

who or what is Archa?

Archa is piss, and however the latter sometimes is used as a substitute for beer, it isn't so in this case