Why Not More Solar Energy?

[laban]

There are currently several solar farms being built across Thailand which will feed the main grid, in Korat, Suphanburi and kanchanaburi and other places I do not know about. European expertise and sub-contractors have been helping on these projects.

I am unsure whether they are government funded or by the electricity board.

[jbrain]

Solar energy would be devestating for Shell's - and BP's profits.

Ask yourself why the electric car (which has been around for some 60 odd years) has not replaced the fossile fuel car decades ago?

The large industrialist company's have put a hold on it's developement.

Yes, the large industrialist companies are too stupid to make money selling electric cars and electricity to run them.

It is more complicated then that.

You see, what will happen to all the Oil Sheiks and Carribean oil exploiteurs not to mention the russians who thrive and also depend on this macro economic system.

You just cant say: "Ok guys! Oil is out and elec is in!" It doesnt work like that. A big part of the world economy depends on it.

To proof my claim a small example:

Rumours are that the entire world's oil supply will be depleted in 20 or 30 odd years. Now.... My question is: Where are all the electric vehicles?

The world economy, the industrialist, the banks, "They don't care if the world will be destroyed by their system"

Hope explained myself better now

It is a complicated issue

At the moment, Oil is used to make and power just about everything we use in modern society. There is not a power source that is able to replicate the sheer performance power of oil and that could readily replace everything that relies on oil for its manufacture.

With BIG oil and BIG manufacturing, there is vested interest in keeping the status quo. Oil is remarkably cheap for what it does and is currently in abundant supply.

As DAL states, it is most likely we will run out of enough oil to feed the worlds consumption in the very near future. At that time I am sure there will be other power sources developed, but none will likely match the power of oil.

As you say, there are enough alternatives to oil already, only thing is that none can offer the same benefits as oil at the price of oil. And that is while the government earns a lot of money by the tax it earns from oil instead of subsidizing the alternative energy sources.

BP by the way is heavily invested in solar energy since they have there own solar devision. I think all oil companies have invested in solar energy.

@ Bunta71 : you say photovoltaic panels are cost effective already. Then please explain that while the solar manufacturers are already heavily subsidized by the Chinese government, and then their product is again heavily subsidized by the Western governments, why those manufacturers are defaulting at a high rate ?

Edited April 16, 2013 by jbrain

[NeverSure]

Yes, somehow the power must first be generated to charge the batteries in an electric car. Also, an electric car has a very limited range. Then it must be recharged from electricity generated in the conventional way, and it takes a lot of time to charge the batteries. It is a fraud. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

Also, about every 8 years the batteries wear out. Then what happens to the environment when the batteries are no longer wanted? What happens to the value of the car when it is about to need about 120,000 baht in new batteries at 8 years? I can buy a lot of gasoline for that much money, and I don't have to buy new batteries with a gasoline car.

Also, gasoline is actually a byproduct of other things made from a barrel of oil. If not burned in cars, what happens to that gasoline? Plastics, some medicines, car tires, paraffin, fertilizers, farm and home chemicals, cleaners, paints, asphalt shingles, driveways and roadways and many other things are made from a barrel of oil. Are we ready to give up using those things? If not, what happens to the gasoline that is cracked from that barrel of oil so that other products can be made?

If we all had cars that used something other than an oil product, we would have an environmental problem disposing of the gasoline in the making of all of the other things mentioned above and there are many other things that are made from oil like the grips on your golf clubs, carpet, vinyls, the case and keys and many other things on your laptop, and even your synthetic clothes. Look around your room. How much plastic do you see? I see a lot. It is all made from oil and consumers demand it.

Electric cars are a greenie's feel-good waste.

[Dancealot]

I think some of you guys are just being too realistic.

What if electric powering and generation was developed more other discoveries would have been made.

[Lantern]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

[bunta71]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

100_4644 (Small).JPG

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

The power of propoganda is real....I like you, am amazed at the lack of knowledge. Google is still your friend.

[mikecwm]

disposing of the gasoline in the making of all of the other things mentioned above

Now I'm no Greenidiot, so it feels good that I can actually help the planet by driving my car more - just to get rid of the unwanted gasoline that would otherwise be polluting landfills etc.

I think I'll pass on your logic there.

But - the idea that we are running out of oil has been debunked so many times since it was first raised about 60 years ago.

Fracking is producing so much oil and gas in N.America that the rest of the world will eventually follow suit.

Coal can be converted to oil and gasoline - and there is plenty of that.

The increase in CO2 is warming the planet you say?

So how come there has been no warming for 17 years?

On that subject - all ice core samples show that CO2 follows temp - and is not a cause of temp increase.

But, back to Solar panels, which was why I came here in the first place.

I too am interested in the economics of using solar electricity. It seems only to be worthwhile though when the surplus can be sold to the electricity company - saving on expensive short lived batteries.

Maybe I'll wait until that becomes an option in Thailand.

Solar hot water? Yep - going to build my own as soon as the workshop gets a roof on it.

Edited April 16, 2013 by mikecwm

[jbrain]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

100_4644 (Small).JPG

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

Ever considered why the panels are so cheap? Answer, because they are subsidized from the source all along to the end consumer.

And ever considered where the money for subsidizing comes from ? Right out of that very same end consumers pocket.

[yoslim]

With growth slowing down in the BRICS and mostly China peak oil is a long way to happen. Also US is switching from Oil to Gas which is also helping in pushing peak oil to a far away time

[FunFon]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

100_4644 (Small).JPG

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

Yes all the benefits you talk about are the result of (IMO wisely far-sighted) government policies and subsidies.

Wish all the world worked that way.

But in the absence of such what you've done however admirable idealistically would make absolutely no sense economically.

[NeverSure]

I think some of you guys are just being too realistic.

What if electric powering and generation was developed more other discoveries would have been made.

Dancealot, in my country, almost every type of new electrical generation plants are illegal. Obama promised to get rid of every coal fired plant. Well, we have technology to scrub the exhaust from those plants and run them cleanly. But no, let's let the Chinese build a new coal fired plant at the rate of about one per week, run them dirty, and pollute all of our air, the world around. Nukes are out even though France has generated most of its electricity with nukes for years. One or two disasters from poor design and maintenance, and they are out. Hydroelectric dams are criticized. Gas fired plants are criticized.

So how would people feel if there was suddenly no electricity? Solar is not very powerful, takes up lots of land in what I think is an ugly way, and works only during the daylight on sunny days. Wind towers are uglier than h3ll, work only when the wind blows at a rate neither too light or too strong, and are not very efficient for the cost and space. If you have seen a beautiful hill along the beautiful Columbia River in the US covered with huge wind generators, you have been saddened, I hope. Talk about a visual environmental disaster.

Even so, solar and wind are so inefficient that they are only built to get the government tax breaks for the wealthy. The government has to subsidize them, and they are otherwise a joke. Wealthy people invest in them because they are repaid by the government in the form of not paying income taxes on other money they already make. So you and I pay for them, for the wealthy people, and don't get a good return on our investment.

Nuclear fusion rather than fission, and hydrogen converted from air may be the future, but the technology for financially viable mass production isn't here yet.

My bet is that long before we run low on oil, there will be innovative alternative that actually make sense.

We are not running low on oil. No where near it. The US has more oil reserves than all of the rest of the world combined. It just hasn't tapped it. It has far more than the Middle East. Some day the people will demand a government that will allow the use of it. It will create jobs and taxes form the companies and the workers, and it will balance the balance of payments for foreign exchange.

It will also provide the world with oil for 100 years. The US already has natural gas wells that can provide the world with natural gas for the next 100 years.

The US abounds with coal and knows how to burn it cleanly.

Sleep well tonight. We are not faced with an energy shortage other than that caused by governments.

Edited April 16, 2013 by NeverSure

[khunPer]

Thailand is actually the second biggest producer of electric from solar cells, according to an article in the Nation last year.

I checked a lot on solar energy, when I build my house three years ago. For electric it is not profitable as long as you have mains supply – but it is a good alternative source for electric power, when you are in a remote area without a power grid.

Some three years ago the initial investment would take 17 years to pay back at present Kwh, without interest and maintenance. The solar cells have become a bit cheaper since, but not cheap enough, and the inverters are better now and can be connected directly to the power grid. However, maintenance is a quite unforeseen cost – like how long will the panels with cells last with a descent energy production? I am not sure, if you can have credit for over production of power, supplied to the grid.

The solar power systems available in Thailand are mostly based on closed circuits with storage in batteries – mainly aimed at areas with no power grid. That may work as a back up in case of black outs, which are common in some areas, for example the island where I live. The batteries seem to last only two to three years and are quite costly compared to the output.

If solar cells become cheaper and the Kwh price increase, it may be profitable without subsidizes. All the solar power system installed in Northern European households at the moment, are subsidized via taxes or the price for the power they supply to the grid.

However, using the solar power for heating water is a good idea. A system with a 200-liter tank costs around 40,000 baht, and if placed or installed the right way, it will work without circulation pump. You may have an electric heater included in the tank, for periods with no sun.

I installed a solar water heating system in my house, but with small electric boosters in the bathrooms, so we have instant hot water – saves on water from well or tank – and hot water during the raining season. You need separate warm water pipes and mixing taps, because days with good sun, the warm water is nearly “boiling hot”.

[technologybytes]

I think that truthfully it's because it's not easy to get solar power installed.

Honestly, if a installer approached me and offered to install a system that would provide useful power, come with a warranty, and be installed professionally and without fuss, for a price of below about 200,000 then I'd go for it. But I cannot be bothered to do all the research, find suppliers and organize the whole thing.

[Bpuumike]

Solar energy would be devestating for Shell's - and BP's profits.

Ask yourself why the electric car (which has been around for some 60 odd years) has not replaced the fossile fuel car decades ago?

The large industrialist company's have put a hold on it's developement.

Yes, the large industrialist companies are too stupid to make money selling electric cars and electricity to run them.

It is more complicated then that.

You see, what will happen to all the Oil Sheiks and Carribean oil exploiteurs not to mention the russians who thrive and also depend on this macro economic system.

You just cant say: "Ok guys! Oil is out and elec is in!" It doesnt work like that. A big part of the world economy depends on it.

To proof my claim a small example:

Rumours are that the entire world's oil supply will be depleted in 20 or 30 odd years. Now.... My question is: Where are all the electric vehicles?

The world economy, the industrialist, the banks, "They don't care if the world will be destroyed by their system"

Hope explained myself better now

Now explain how and from what electricity is generated.

[NeverSure]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

100_4644 (Small).JPG

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

But you still need the grid to have electricity 24/7. Yes you can feed into it some of the time, but not at night and not on cloudy days, and not when you need to run something really powerful such as a 9 hp electric compressor.

You didn't mention how much it costs the average person to do that conversion, or what his payback time is in years. There's more cost to installation than the cost of the panels.

Believe me, if solar was such a great deal, everyone would be doing it. Everyone. I priced it out. I live in a fairly sunny area. My payback time was the same time as the expected life of the panels.

Also, many people live in Northern parts of the globe where sunlight isn't as direct, and where weather is much colder. I've seen solar panels with 2 feet of snow covering them. One size doesn't fit all.

[jackflash]

I've lived on Solar Power for over 20 years. My installation must have paid for itself many times over.

My original second-hand batteries are still running fine and still have far more ampere/hours then I need.

I'm not connected to the mains and don't have a generator and have never needed one.

It worth having Solar just for the reliability alone: No more black-outs.

One caveat however: You do need to adjust your life style. Don't use electricity for Heating or Cooling.

And don't leave appliances switched on when not needed.

People are incredibly wasteful. How many houses do you visit where the TV is running unattended for most of the day?

Edited April 16, 2013 by jackflash

[FunFon]

Yes direct hot water is an absolute no-brainer, into a well-insulated storage tank will keep near-boiling for days, can be rigged for next to nothing for those on a budget.

But of course who needs hot water here?

[FunFon]

I've lived on Solar Power for over 20 years. My installation must have paid for itself many times over.

My original second-hand batteries are still running fine and still have far more ampere/hours then I need.

I don't have a generator and have never needed one.

It worth having Solar just for the reliability: No more black-outs.

One caveat however: You do need to adjust your life style. Don't use electricity for Heating or Cooling.

And don't leave appliances switched on when not needed.

People are incredibly wasteful. How many houses do you visit where the TV is running unattended for most of the day?

No washing machine or did you rig a gas motored one? Gas or kero fridge, no real freezer? No microwave? What do you use to make toast or roast a chicken? Your SO doesn't need a hair dryer or curling iron?

No power tools? I guess you only use portable computers, my 24 TB filer probably sucks more in an hour than your TV/stereo/lights do in 24.

I've never known anyone whose surplus storage cells lasted more than ten years, you're very lucky.

[BookMan]

Jeezus can't believe some of the rubbish talked about in this thread.

100_4644 (Small).JPG

This is my place, it is connected to the mains but the panels produce way more than I can possibly consume.

System not only covers all power used, it covers the daily standing charge, the rates, the water rates and the house insurance.

So in fact it costs me not one cent to live here (house is paid for) appart from general house maintenence.

Before I bought this I lived on stand alone solar for 25 years.

Have you seen how cheap solar has become in the last few years. Panels I sold ten years ago for $1200 are now going for $430 <deleted>

Australia just reached one million homes now with solar

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/solar-milestone-1000000-pv-systems-installed-in-australia-44201

It's just a case of believing in it. When I started in the solar game almost 30 years ago there was only about six other companies doing it, now there are hundreds .

Ever considered why the panels are so cheap? Answer, because they are subsidized from the source all along to the end consumer.

And ever considered where the money for subsidizing comes from ? Right out of that very same end consumers pocket.

Everything to make the solar panel is of course produced with...oil

[BookMan]

disposing of the gasoline in the making of all of the other things mentioned above

Now I'm no Greenidiot, so it feels good that I can actually help the planet by driving my car more - just to get rid of the unwanted gasoline that would otherwise be polluting landfills etc.

I think I'll pass on your logic there.

But - the idea that we are running out of oil has been debunked so many times since it was first raised about 60 years ago.

Fracking is producing so much oil and gas in N.America that the rest of the world will eventually follow suit.

Coal can be converted to oil and gasoline - and there is plenty of that.

The increase in CO2 is warming the planet you say?

So how come there has been no warming for 17 years?

On that subject - all ice core samples show that CO2 follows temp - and is not a cause of temp increase.

But, back to Solar panels, which was why I came here in the first place.

I too am interested in the economics of using solar electricity. It seems only to be worthwhile though when the surplus can be sold to the electricity company - saving on expensive short lived batteries.

Maybe I'll wait until that becomes an option in Thailand.

Solar hot water? Yep - going to build my own as soon as the workshop gets a roof on it.

60 years ago it looked like we would have oil for 'ever'. But back then, compared to now, we hardly used a drop. Of course oil is a limited resource and of course we are running out of it. We use more and more and more of it every year. To say that oil will just keep on lasting, that new and wonderful mega oil fields will be discovered is fantasy stuff.

Solar is a great power source and is 'free'. It can do a lot of things, but it is decades away from being able to, if ever, have an effect where it really counts; within manufacturing and a replacement for oil.

[Lantern]

If someone buys a car why do they never ask "How long till I recoup my investment"

Why is it so with solar?

[FunFon]

If someone buys a car why do they never ask "How long till I recoup my investment"

Why is it so with solar?

-

If you convert your car from petrol to NGV, and the conversion costs 2000 Euro, you figure out how many km per month you drive on average, the price difference and you get the ROI.

Maybe you also feel good about using cleaner fuel, but in the end have to decide if you can afford to be idealistic.

[jackflash]

> No washing machine or did you rig a gas motored one?

> Gas or kero fridge,
> no real freezer? No microwave? What do you use to make toast or roast a
> chicken?

I have a normal electric washing machine, likewise my fridge is a AC/DC model

(admittedly one designed to be efficient).

> No power tools?

I have a large workshop with many power tools, and various computers.

> my 24 TB filer probably sucks more in an hour than your TV/stereo/lights do in 24.

And thus you nicelly illustrate my point. It is your attitude which is the problem.

> I've never known anyone whose surplus storage cells lasted more than ten years, you're very lucky.

High quality flooded cells should last a minimum of twenty years, and after that should have a lot of life left.

I have one set which is well over thirty years in continuous use and shows no sign of deterioration.

the trick is to maintain them properly: Use distilled water, top up regularly, and never, never flatten completely.

Edited April 16, 2013 by jackflash

[Rorri]

Solar energy would be devestating for Shell's - and BP's profits.

Ask yourself why the electric car (which has been around for some 60 odd years) has not replaced the fossile fuel car decades ago?

The large industrialist company's have put a hold on it's developement.

Actually, BP invests heavily in solar panels/technology, I guess they are diversifying and can see the end of fossil fuels.

[FunFon]

Actually, BP invests heavily in solar panels/technology, I guess they are diversifying and can see the end of fossil fuels.

-

Whole operation designed by and run from the PR department, as with any large company's "CSR" program.

All the big oil co's have seen the "green" light over the past ten years or so, pure window dressing IMO, try to help damage control from their environmental devastation, keep stockholders from feeling guilty for profiting from blood money.

[jackflash]

Many years ago I designed Solar gear (inverters, regulators, etc) and got to know many in the industry.
When the price of Solar Cells first began to drop, there was great hope for the industry and (in my country) small Solar shops appeared in every small town.
Over the years however, most of these shops have closed down.

A while ago I was at an IT function where a ran into a bunch of these early Solar installers, and I asked them what on earth happened to the industry.
Their reply was unanimous: There was no problem with the gear, the problem was with the consumers. The Installers quickly found that they had so many warranty problems that they had to price their installation too high to be economical.

Let me give you one example: A while ago a neighbor of mine built a new house complete with a large Solar Installation.

All went well for a while but then frequently he would discover that his batteries were inexplicably flat. His supplier couldn't figure it out and asked me for help.
To cut a long story short, I built up a Watt/Hour meter to measure the separate feeds to each room.
It quickly became evident the the problem was somewhere in his teenage daughters room.
When we checked the room we found a large electric heater hidden away under the bed.
Mystery solved.

So the problem with Solar is the unrealistic expectations with many consumers. Along with the absolute stubbornness and stupidity of some people.

What this does means is that an intelligent person can research and install their own system quite cheaply.
Bypassing the installer's mark-up means you can save a lot of money.

But probably not if you have an antisocial teenage daughter.

Edited April 16, 2013 by jackflash

[apetley]

If someone buys a car why do they never ask "How long till I recoup my investment"

Why is it so with solar?

Many people feel a car is essential so the cost is largely irrelevant.

With solar the alternative, being on the grid, right now is usually far cheaper which becomes the deciding factor.

Edited April 16, 2013 by apetley

[jackflash]

On the subject of Hydrogen supplies and Electric cars.

The key to all this that the Energy has to come from somewhere.

To make Electricity or Hydrogen you need energy.
And Hydrogen can be converted into Hydrocarbon (Gasoline) with reasonable efficiency.
So if you do have sufficient cheap Energy, you can make any form of fuel.

The big advantage of Gasoline is that it is a liquid at room temperature and contains a fairly high amount of energy (by weight and volume).
Conversely, the disadvantage of Hydrogen is that it's not a liquid (at normal pressures and temperatures), and it contains very little Energy for its volume.

So here is the bottom line:

If you have cheap Energy, you can make any fuel you want.

Hydrogen fueled cars are an irrelevant distraction. And to a lesser extent the same applies to Electric cars.

[bunta71]

Many here are missing a crucial point in assessing home power needs. Instead of just "bolting on solar accessories" onto any style of house... one needs to reduce the overall need for energy in the home by several methods, site orientation, etc. Appropriate technology only does well when planned at the outset of design to incorporate the specifics of where you are in the world and how you can reduce the energy requirements. I have to laugh at the naive statement about the northern regions and how much colder it is. Whew! Absolutely no clues. Again I mention there are very simple techniques to build houses here in way too hot Thailand that can cool themselves naturally. Most have no idea what I am even talking about. Save the oil for the specific uses that cannot be done with other responsible, clean and lot's of time free energy sources. Trust me, there will always be a need for oil.

[robhufton]

Yes, somehow the power must first be generated to charge the batteries in an electric car. Also, an electric car has a very limited range. Then it must be recharged from electricity generated in the conventional way, and it takes a lot of time to charge the batteries. It is a fraud. "There is no such thing as a free lunch."

Also, about every 8 years the batteries wear out. Then what happens to the environment when the batteries are no longer wanted? What happens to the value of the car when it is about to need about 120,000 baht in new batteries at 8 years? I can buy a lot of gasoline for that much money, and I don't have to buy new batteries with a gasoline car.

Also, gasoline is actually a byproduct of other things made from a barrel of oil. If not burned in cars, what happens to that gasoline? Plastics, some medicines, car tires, paraffin, fertilizers, farm and home chemicals, cleaners, paints, asphalt shingles, driveways and roadways and many other things are made from a barrel of oil. Are we ready to give up using those things? If not, what happens to the gasoline that is cracked from that barrel of oil so that other products can be made?

If we all had cars that used something other than an oil product, we would have an environmental problem disposing of the gasoline in the making of all of the other things mentioned above and there are many other things that are made from oil like the grips on your golf clubs, carpet, vinyls, the case and keys and many other things on your laptop, and even your synthetic clothes. Look around your room. How much plastic do you see? I see a lot. It is all made from oil and consumers demand it.

Electric cars are a greenie's feel-good waste.

Interesting article here...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22001356