Where To Live - 20 Years On

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You are working on the assumption that the old farts on this forum will actually be alive in 20 years, Winnie.

No, the working assumption is that there will be new old farts (including myself in this) ranting about how everything was better in the old days. (i.e. today).

[PoodMaiDai]

20 years from now... I really doubt I'll be here unless I'm tucked away in the boonies somewhere. Though, I can't imagine spending the rest of my life jumping through their immigration hoops and driving on death roads full of drunk drivers and people who don't even have a license to begin with. That's all fine now, but it will get old as I do. And things will get worse here, not better. Crime will rise, poverty will rise, pollution will rise, and so on. If we're lucky there will be another financial crash here, but if not it is going to be expensive in the future. And all of this is assuming the extremists in the south don't turn the place upside down or the country isn't torn into a civil war, because there is an event unfortunately coming within the next 10 years or so that is going to either destroy or unite this country. Being the cynic I am, I'm leaning towards destroy. There are just too many variables to think 20 years on, especially here.

Having said that, I have no idea where I will grow old. 20 years will change every country on earth.

[rene123]

Fortunately, I have enough investments to take care of me for a long time. I have no intention of making Thailand a permanent home because I can't own property. I'll just rent whatever I need to make me happy. And, as I've recently learned from my mentor, I don't need a lot to make me happy. Personal possesions just tie you down. I already have a small, fully paid for home and property in Canada. All I have to pay is the taxes. By staying in Thailand for the winter I don't have to pay for heating or maintenance for 6 months. I can easily find suitable accommodation for 5000 baht a month in Thailand. That is what I pay for internet and cable television in Canada.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Fortunately, I have enough investments to take care of me for a long time. I have no intention of making Thailand a permanent home because I can't own property.

You can own property, just not land. You can own a unit in that Baiyoke Santitham Tower just fine.

[narkeddiver]

You are working on the assumption that the old farts on this forum will actually be alive in 20 years, Winnie.

No, the working assumption is that there will be new old farts (including myself in this) ranting about how everything was better in the old days. (i.e. today).

Does that mean that the current old farts will become the old old farts?

[narkeddiver]

20 years from now I will be living in the Immigration car park as I will have to queue for 89 days to get to the front of the 90 day reporting queue

[hellodolly]

Fortunately, I have enough investments to take care of me for a long time. I have no intention of making Thailand a permanent home because I can't own property. I'll just rent whatever I need to make me happy. And, as I've recently learned from my mentor, I don't need a lot to make me happy. Personal possesions just tie you down. I already have a small, fully paid for home and property in Canada. All I have to pay is the taxes. By staying in Thailand for the winter I don't have to pay for heating or maintenance for 6 months. I can easily find suitable accommodation for 5000 baht a month in Thailand. That is what I pay for internet and cable television in Canada.

Well I am aiming to make Thailand my long term home. That being said I refuse to buy a house or condo. Reason being I have had all that in Canada and The U S. Now I refused to buy any thing I can not walk away from. My possessions no longer own me. I am free to change my mind. Example the wife really loves Bali. The door is not closed on it. As is, it looks like Chiang Mai until they barbeque me at the temple.

That being said I do invest $5 a week in lotteries with my ex wife in BC and we will split the money in such a case i might buy a home and the gardener can double as my driver and his wife can be the maid.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

My possessions no longer own me.

You do have your moments.

[rene123]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

[elektrified]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

Huh? The English speaking C.M. population is the main attraction?

Maybe expand your knowledge and learn to speak some Thai. There isn't a day that goes by where I would not be able to get things done around here if I could not speak some Thai. I couldn't imagine living in a small town in Spain as I did without speaking some Spanish. Sometimes a week passed before I met an English speaker. I really don't understand how people can spend time in a country and not be able to communicate with the locals.

Edited April 20, 2013 by elektrified

[Paagai]

85 storey skyscraper that will be built there in 2027.

Current rate of building in Santitham it will be a lot sooner than 2027. High end projects are already starting to appear - D'Vieng Santitham for example (admittedly not a skyscraper) a sure sign of changing times. And sold out before construction started.

In twenty years, most of the low end dormitory condos being built now will have already been demolished and replaced with high end condos. Not that there will be many left after the 2018 earthquake that WTK omitted from his predictions I hope they don't allow skyscrapers though, anything over the current building heights would seriously spoil the city.

For me, retirement will be somewhere between Phayao and Laos! But that's still a way in the future.....

Edited April 21, 2013 by Paagai

[AnotherOneAmerican]

85 storey skyscraper that will be built there in 2027.

Current rate of building in Santitham it will be a lot sooner than 2027. High end projects are already starting to appear - D'Vieng Santitham for example (admittedly not a skyscraper) a sure sign of changing times. And sold out before construction started.

In twenty years, most of the low end dormitory condos being built now will have already been demolished and replaced with high end condos. Not that there will be many left after the 2018 earthquake that WTK omitted from his predictions I hope they don't allow skyscrapers though, anything over the current building heights would seriously spoil the city.

For me, retirement will be somewhere between Phayao and Laos! But that's still a way in the future.....

Slightly off topic here,

But when 'they' want to knock down one of the 'low end dormitory' condos and an ageing expat or two refuses to sell, what happens?

I was under the impression that when you buy a condo, it is yours forever, to own and to occupy.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ Yes. Though all of those dormitory style apartment buildings are not individually owned; one owner owns their crummy building and rents out rooms by the month. If/when they decide to sell they can just sell on fairly short notice.

Paagai: Do you remember how much those units went for in D'Vieng? I realize it's sold out completely (pretty amazing in itself) but what sort of money were they charging?

Edited April 21, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[rene123]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

Huh? The English speaking C.M. population is the main attraction?

Maybe expand your knowledge and learn to speak some Thai. There isn't a day that goes by where I would not be able to get things done around here if I could not speak some Thai. I couldn't imagine living in a small town in Spain as I did without speaking some Spanish. Sometimes a week passed before I met an English speaker. I really don't understand how people can spend time in a country and not be able to communicate with the locals.

You are truly amazing, electrified. You actually learned to write and speak Thai fluently within a 6 months time period? Wow, let me be the first to congratulate you. I was only able to learn a few dozen words and a handful of phrases to help me order food, tell a tuk tuk where to take me and ask where the nearest bus station was located. Maybe I'll learn a little more on my next visit.

However, I'll stand behind what I wrote. Chiang Mai is an easy Thai city for a foreigner to get around for the simple reason that someone nearby will have some knowledge of how to speak English. That is more than can be said for most other Thai cities. In small Thai villages it's unusual for more than a few people to speak English. In Germany almost everyone can speak English to some degree or another.

Most immigrants take baby steps when immersing themselves into a new country. They congregate in areas where everyone else has the same culture or common language. Vancouver BC in Canada is a multi-culture city. There are many different ethnic groups located throughout the city. Many speak no other language than the one they came to Canada with and that can last for 10 years or more. There are second generation Chinese that still can't speak English. But, that is unusual.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

Huh? The English speaking C.M. population is the main attraction?

Maybe expand your knowledge and learn to speak some Thai. There isn't a day that goes by where I would not be able to get things done around here if I could not speak some Thai. I couldn't imagine living in a small town in Spain as I did without speaking some Spanish. Sometimes a week passed before I met an English speaker. I really don't understand how people can spend time in a country and not be able to communicate with the locals.

You are truly amazing, electrified. You actually learned to write and speak Thai fluently within a 6 months time period? Wow, let me be the first to congratulate you. I was only able to learn a few dozen words and a handful of phrases to help me order food, tell a tuk tuk where to take me and ask where the nearest bus station was located. Maybe I'll learn a little more on my next visit.

Speaking Thai or not is besides the point.

I can speak Thai, but find Thai people among the dullest conversationalists in the world (out of the varying peoples I have met).

If I want an interesting conversation, I must seek out English speakers.

[hml367]

I have found that it is much harder to find local people that speak English than not, If one goes outside of the areas that foreigners frequent.

In my experience, Chiang Mai is far harder to find English speaking locals than Bangkok.

MSPain

[mamborobert]

Twenty years...Twenty Years...... .Hell, I can't even see the half of the walking dead in God's waiting rooms (Veerachai Court et al) getting their money's worth out of a five year diary.

The exchange rate has seen a lot of my acquaintances move on or planning to, perhaps the missionaries go on to save in Burma....

I know the cliche that the only certainty is change....but I hope that with some moving on, and Burma, Laos, Cambodia picking up (for tourism as well),with China slowing down a bit, the condo vacancy rates, and the wishful property bust........sleepy old CM will continue its snails pace forward.

I want to be able to make my daily shuffle to the San Pakoy markets, buy my chicken from the nice toothless old crone (perhaps the daughter of current crone) and gaze fondly (just as the Italians did at the balcony of Il Duce) at the spaces where the smiling face of Thaksin looks down upon the chicken gizzards, stop for my Oreo/Nestle milkshake and shuffle home for wifey to cook lunch....Eat, rinse down with ice and Leo ......wash rinse repeat .

[rene123]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

Huh? The English speaking C.M. population is the main attraction?

Maybe expand your knowledge and learn to speak some Thai. There isn't a day that goes by where I would not be able to get things done around here if I could not speak some Thai. I couldn't imagine living in a small town in Spain as I did without speaking some Spanish. Sometimes a week passed before I met an English speaker. I really don't understand how people can spend time in a country and not be able to communicate with the locals.

You are truly amazing, electrified. You actually learned to write and speak Thai fluently within a 6 months time period? Wow, let me be the first to congratulate you. I was only able to learn a few dozen words and a handful of phrases to help me order food, tell a tuk tuk where to take me and ask where the nearest bus station was located. Maybe I'll learn a little more on my next visit.

Speaking Thai or not is besides the point.

I can speak Thai, but find Thai people among the dullest conversationalists in the world (out of the varying peoples I have met).

If I want an interesting conversation, I must seek out English speakers.

For someone to be an interesting conversationalist takes having spent an interesting life. Most Thais can not afford to do much interesting. They are too busy working a 6 day week. All they can converse about is their immediate family. The same can be said for people who watch television all day or sit on a bar stool every day. Foreign travellers who have seen and experienced the world often have many stories worth listening to. And, some people are just naturally good story tellers. The Thai government prefers to keep its people ignorant. The same is true of North Koreans. Compare North Koreans to South Koreans and there is a world of difference within a basically similar culture.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup,

The language issue. Many expats come to live here with no desire to learn the Thai language at all; some come with a strong motivation to do so (or its just "natural" to them to want to "embrace and explore" whatever is around them, and learning the language to some degree is part of that aspect of character); and, a rare few come with the goal of becoming fluent in Thai, even learning to read and write (or evolve into seeking that level of depth in Thai, after some years).

I don't mean to imply that I think there's anything a given expat should do here in terms of learning the language: I think that's a matter of personal choice. But, I do think that even a small investment in learning Thai can open many doors, depending on the person.

While I consider myself "more than street fluent" in Thai, and can make puns, and I can improvise songs in Thai that really amuse Thai people because of the way I am "murdering" their mother-tongue, as well as my bizarre analogies:

I consider it a kind of a blessing that I can't have a deep conversation in Thai where I discuss the exquisite details of my personal existential angst !

And, while, yes, verbal language is our Homo Saps' distinguishing double-edged glory, I'd also assert that if you have an open-heart, and a sense of humor, and genuine curiosity about people, that interacting with Thais on non-verbal, as well as verbal, levels ... with all types of Thais, in all kinds of situations ... can be great fun ! I think that spontaneity, and a wonderful sense of humor, are strong aspects of the very complex "Thai character," more so among the "common folk."

Writing this reminds me of one of my favorite authors, Milan Kundera, who wrote: "The greater the cultural and social differences between people, the more magical the light can spring from their contact"). [1]

yours, ~o:37;

[1] The quote comes from his 1993 book, "Testaments Betrayed:" a work, not of fiction, but of literary essays, which I read in English translation from the original French: "Testaments Trahis"). I am quoting from memory from reading the book about twelve years ago, so I may have slightly misquoted, here

[Paagai]

Paagai: Do you remember how much those units went for in D'Vieng? I realize it's sold out completely (pretty amazing in itself) but what sort of money were they charging?

Sorry, Don't know. And all they have on their website (sansiri.com) is one page saying it's sold out. The artists impressions look cool though.

[elektrified]

I have found that it is much harder to find local people that speak English than not, If one goes outside of the areas that foreigners frequent.

In my experience, Chiang Mai is far harder to find English speaking locals than Bangkok.

MSPain

Agree 100%. But not only Bangkok. I was recently traveling down from Hua Hin to Chumpon and was often amazed when I met locals in little tiny beach resort towns where hardly any farang tourists ever frequent, and they would speak absolutely perfect English. I was in one town so small that there was no Post Office and nothing more than one 7-11 to shop in, certainly no lady bars or anything. When I went somewhere and spoke to a local in Thai, they would answer me in perfect English; even the kids working in 7-11! I seldom ever meet a local shopkeeper here who speaks any English.

[hellodolly]

My possessions no longer own me.

You do have your moments.

That little jewel allows me to have a lot of them.

[hellodolly]

Having visited many cities and villages in Thailand in the short time I was there it is obvious that the main attraction of Chiang Mai to westerners is the large English speaking population. There isn't anywhere you can go in the city without having someone to speak to. Chiang Mai offers most of what any North American city offers, but with a different flavour. It's big enough that there is always something new to learn. Small cities with only a Thai speaking population would soon become boring.

Huh? The English speaking C.M. population is the main attraction?

Maybe expand your knowledge and learn to speak some Thai. There isn't a day that goes by where I would not be able to get things done around here if I could not speak some Thai. I couldn't imagine living in a small town in Spain as I did without speaking some Spanish. Sometimes a week passed before I met an English speaker. I really don't understand how people can spend time in a country and not be able to communicate with the locals.

You are truly amazing, electrified. You actually learned to write and speak Thai fluently within a 6 months time period? Wow, let me be the first to congratulate you. I was only able to learn a few dozen words and a handful of phrases to help me order food, tell a tuk tuk where to take me and ask where the nearest bus station was located. Maybe I'll learn a little more on my next visit.

However, I'll stand behind what I wrote. Chiang Mai is an easy Thai city for a foreigner to get around for the simple reason that someone nearby will have some knowledge of how to speak English. That is more than can be said for most other Thai cities. In small Thai villages it's unusual for more than a few people to speak English. In Germany almost everyone can speak English to some degree or another.

Most immigrants take baby steps when immersing themselves into a new country. They congregate in areas where everyone else has the same culture or common language. Vancouver BC in Canada is a multi-culture city. There are many different ethnic groups located throughout the city. Many speak no other language than the one they came to Canada with and that can last for 10 years or more. There are second generation Chinese that still can't speak English. But, that is unusual.

I lived in Vancouver area for 13 years and never once had a problem communicating. I worked all over the city and it was never a problem.

That being said I wanted to remind you of how much French plays a part in the culture in Canada. Walk into any store in Canada and the product will have French on it. Now if Thailand could only become that multicultural it would be great. As is I will plod on with my slow learning of Thai and enjoy my many mistakes with the Thai people (if you accept is your fault they are willing to laugh with you) while some just seem to pick it up magically and are unable to communicate with out it.

[Thakkar]

_snip_

And, while, yes, verbal language is our Homo Saps' distinguishing double-edged glory, I'd also assert that if you have an open-heart, and a sense of humor, and genuine curiosity about people, that interacting with Thais on non-verbal, as well as verbal, levels ... with all types of Thais, in all kinds of situations ... can be great fun ! I think that spontaneity, and a wonderful sense of humor, are strong aspects of the very complex "Thai character," more so among the "common folk."

_snip_

If I didn't know any better, this seems almost like you're describing the joys of playing with puppies.

T

[orang37]

If I didn't know any better, this seems almost like you're describing the joys of playing with puppies.

Oh, despair: I had hoped, so, your take-away would be a more anthropocentric "Happy Meal," than that !

Now, as I write this, the dark words of Camus echo in my minds: “At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman.”

yours, ~o:37;

[rene123]

About all we can predict is there will be more people, more vehicles, more traffic, less parking available and government services always two steps behind what is necessary. Oh, and the police will continue to collect their bribery auxilliary money taxes through road blocks on blind corners.

[Thakkar]

If I didn't know any better, this seems almost like you're describing the joys of playing with puppies.

Oh, despair: I had hoped, so, your take-away would be a more anthropocentric "Happy Meal," than that !

Now, as I write this, the dark words of Camus echo in my minds: “At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman.”

yours, ~o:37;

Despair not, my friend, for I do know better.

Camus: I'm never sure what he really means, whatever he says. Maybe something really is Lost In Translation. I've always fancied the last words of that line to be: "other than human" rather than "inhuman"—but that's just my fancy.

Cheers/T

[Thakkar]

About all we can predict is there will be more people, more vehicles, more traffic, less parking available and government services always two steps behind what is necessary. Oh, and the police will continue to collect their bribery auxilliary money taxes through road blocks on blind corners.

Extrapolating from the present is almost always wrong.

Interestingly, the few people who got a few of the big things right were fiction writers.

T