Open Heart And Vascular Surgery In Thailand

[MrTudo]

I had open heart surgery 11 months ago and may need other vascular surgery done eventually. I had the surgery done in th US . The surgeon then recommended a stent in my left common illiac as well as a bypass on my right femoral artery. I was not able to walk 1/10th mile without having unbelievable pain.

I decided to take a shot and try "chelation therapy" instead and have thus far had 32 session which last about 3 hours each time. The surgeon looked me right in the eye and told me it's nonsense.

Nonsense maybe but I'm now averaging 10-12 miles of walking a week, generally in 1-3 mile intervals, nonstop and have walked a little over 8 miles without stopping. I'm not interested in what the surgeon has to say at this point.

That said, I am getting really sick of being here and the only reason we endure this and not move back to Asia is concern over "what if I need a major surgery in the near future, as well as the bull market in my industry that's nothing short of breathtaking. It will surely come to a close and then we'd like to move back to Asia, preferably Vietnam, although I have looked into Thailand hospitals and they seem OK. My question is multi-fold. Has anyone here been diagnosed with illiac disease, heart disease, atherosclerosis and have you have treatments ( stents, open heart, etc) in LOS or elsewhere in Asia and how was the experience other than terrifying as it was for me.

Another question , is anyone familiar with chelation and does anyone know where it might be available in Thailand, Vietnam, etc???

I didn't plan on typing this much but there ya go. Thanks for the latitude .

Mr T

[leisurely]

A collegaue had very sucessful cardiac surgery in Samitivej over the summer. He had 4 veins bypassed ?CABAG, no idea what chelation is though. He was in hospital for just over a week and is now in the pink.

Try contacting the hospitals directly to find out about what you need to know.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful

Leisurley

[MrTudo]

Thanks Leisurley,

It's more important for me to hear experiences and even opinions rather than what the hospital has to say. Ever hear a hospital say "we aren't taht good in that kind o procedure"?

Quadruple bypass is significant! Any open heart surgery of course is significant but a quad is on the pump and the chest is opened considerably more than mine was during my single bypass.

Chelation therapy is an intravenous solution ( EDTA ) run thru your body which has not been "proven" or considered an alternative to slice and dice ( not by the surgeons anyway) but I'm familiar with quite a few people who have avoided surgery after chelation therapy as I have avoided the additional surgery and wish I knew about it years ago. Who knows, maybe the bypass could have been avoided.

[h90]

I don't know about your problem, but want to add that my mother had heart problems and shall eat heavy amount of tabletts every day.

She asked the specialist if it would be possible to exercise instead and reduce weight.

She first got some stupid comments from the average old women does it for a week or two and than stops again, but they gave her three month with recording anything.

After that all the parameters were there where they should be accourding to the first visit.

The doc did not even look at that and told anyway medication is necessary, (even all parameter are where they should be).

By now 6 month, she reduced the weight 5 kg (which is not enough), but is on the room-bicycle every day for 1 hour. And everything improved a lot.

I don't know chelation, but I belive there are many things which are not promoted by doctors, but work.

Thanks Leisurley,

It's more important for me to hear experiences and even opinions rather than what the hospital has to say. Ever hear a hospital say "we aren't taht good in that kind o procedure"?

Quadruple bypass is significant! Any open heart surgery of course is significant but a quad is on the pump and the chest is opened considerably more than mine was during my single bypass.

Chelation therapy is an intravenous solution ( EDTA ) run thru your body which has not been "proven" or considered an alternative to slice and dice ( not by the surgeons anyway) but I'm familiar with quite a few people who have avoided surgery after chelation therapy as I have avoided the additional surgery and wish I knew about it years ago. Who knows, maybe the bypass could have been avoided.

[Sheryl]

I researched open heart facilities in Thailand (including visiting them -- and I am a former head nurse of an open heart surgical ICU) for a friend who needed a valve replacement. Of the private hospitals, I was most impressed with Samitivej. They can definitely do any necessary surgical procedure as well as angioplasty. But cost would be about $10,000 for open heart surgery. You can review the qualifications of their cardiac surgeons on their website, several areboard certified in the west.

My friend, for cost reasons, wound up going to Rajawethi which is the government hospital with the most experience in cardiac surgery (they have a whole building devoted to it), cost less than $3,000. Care there was excellent and their mortality rates rival those of the U.S. However, being a large government hospital, it takes sometime (and defintiely a Thai speaker along) to get through the initial buearaucratic hurdles of being admitted.

Bottom line -- you can get top quality cardiac care here. I don't however know anything about chelation, suggest you google it. If none in Thailand look up Singapore.

Edited March 17, 2006 by Sheryl

[lopburi3]

Bangkok Hospital Group has recently opened a dedicated Bangkok Heart Hospital and are the control group for the major international class hospitals in Thailand, including Samitivej and Bangkok Nursing Hospital (two of the most recommended) and or course Bangkok Hospital. The price for quad bypass at the Heart Hospital two weeks ago was 600,000 baht ($15,000) (operation charge only) for a neighbor who was admitted during a major heart attack and in very serious condition. Thailand has always been considered up to international standards at the front line hospitals and even the government run hospitals located in Bangkok have excellent staff and facilities but you have much less choice and information to work with and I have seen some really poor nursing/tech type work in my very limited experience. But I also experienced this first hand at the self proclaimed number one hospital here. I do not believe the facilities in Viet Nam are even close.

[MrTudo]

I do not believe the facilities in Viet Nam are even close.

What do you base that opinion on?

[MrTudo]

I researched open heart facilities in Thailand (including visiting them -- and I am a former head nurse of an open heart surgical ICU) for a friend who needed a valve replacement. Of the private hospitals, I was most impressed with Samitivej. They can definitely do any necessary surgical procedure as well as angioplasty. But cost would be about $10,000 for open heart surgery. You can review the qualifications of their cardiac surgeons on their website, several areboard certified in the west.

My friend, for cost reasons, wound up going to Rajawethi which is the government hospital with the most experience in cardiac surgery (they have a whole building devoted to it), cost less than $3,000. Care there was excellent and their mortality rates rival those of the U.S. However, being a large government hospital, it takes sometime (and defintiely a Thai speaker along) to get through the initial buearaucratic hurdles of being admitted.

Bottom line -- you can get top quality cardiac care here. I don't however know anything about chelation, suggest you google it. If none in Thailand look up Singapore.

Thank you Sheryl. It's an amazing difference in costs. My open heart surgery, mammary to LAD, minimally invasive meaning "off pump" was $104,000.00

10 G's for open heart in Thailand is an incredible difference.

I just returned from my 33rd chelation session. It's keeping the knife away.

Rgrds

Mr T

[JSixpack]

I decided to take a shot and try "chelation therapy" instead and have thus far had 32 session which last about 3 hours each time. The surgeon looked me right in the eye and told me it's nonsense.

Which it is. You might as well come to SE Asia now if you wish.

from American Heart Assoc

"Is there any proof that chelation therapy works?

Supporters of chelation therapy rely on the testimonies of people who’ve had it done. Many people claim that their lives were saved and their health improved because of chelation therapy.

But these aren’t the only claims. Supporters also claim that chelation therapy significantly improves blood flow through previously narrowed blood vessels in some patients. Another claim is that chelation therapy has restored lost bodily function and reduced pain in some cases.

The American Heart Association can’t say why some people feel better after having chelation therapy. And we don’t deny that some people actually may feel better after treatment. So what’s the problem?

The problem is, we question whether these patients feel better because of chelation therapy. It’s possible they feel better because of something else.

For example, chelation therapists usually require their patients to make lifestyle changes. This can include quitting smoking, losing weight, eating more fruits and vegetables, avoiding foods high in saturated fats and exercising regularly. These are healthy changes for anyone to make, and patients make them at the same time that they’re undergoing chelation therapy. That’s what clouds the issue. Research has shown that these lifestyle changes improve patients’ quality of life and sense of well-being. In fact, we have advocated these lifestyle changes for many years.

The American Heart Association believes that these lifestyle changes are probably why the condition of some patients improves. We believe they don’t feel better because of chelation therapy with EDTA, but because of better, healthier habits that they adopt.

Patients also may feel better for psychological reasons. Sometimes a sick person’s symptoms disappear for no apparent reason, due to a placebo effect. This could be why some patients report that they feel better after they’ve spent $3,000 to $5,000 for chelation therapy.

Can chelation therapy be dangerous?

EDTA isn’t totally safe as a drug. There’s a real danger of kidney failure. (renal tubular necrosis). EDTA can also cause bone marrow depression, shock, low blood pressure (hypotension), convulsions, disturbances of regular heart rhythm (cardiac arrhythmias), allergic-type reactions and respiratory arrest.

In fact, a number of deaths in the United States have been linked with chelation therapy. Also, some people are on dialysis because of kidney failure caused, at least in part, by chelation therapy."

See also Quack Watch

If I were you, I'd get interested in the opinion of a qualfied heart specialist and follow the recommendation before it's too late. If lifestyle changes are sufficient, and you have the self-discipline to make them, so be it.

[lopburi3]

I do not believe the facilities in Viet Nam are even close.

What do you base that opinion on?

35 years of living in the area and the recent records with bird flu and SARS in the top rated hospitals of that country. The fact that Bangkok has always been the preferred medevac location for US in this region. I can not imagine anyone believing you could obtain the state of the art care in Vietnam that you can obtain in Bangkok (if that is what you are suggesting).

[MrTudo]

I do not believe the facilities in Viet Nam are even close.

What do you base that opinion on?

35 years of living in the area and the recent records with bird flu and SARS in the top rated hospitals of that country. The fact that Bangkok has always been the preferred medevac location for US in this region. I can not imagine anyone believing you could obtain the state of the art care in Vietnam that you can obtain in Bangkok (if that is what you are suggesting).

Oh OK, I'm glad to have your 1st hand knowledge of what the medical care is like in Vietnam. So tou were treated or at least visited hospitals in Vietnam? Or this opinion is based on experience in Thailand?

Further, I wasn't suggesting anything. I asked a question . I see there's 2 all-knowing ones here.

This was supposed to be a serious thread on a serious issue. Believe you me if you ever have the experience that I have had in having your sternum cut so as to do some slice and dice inside your chest you'll take it as serious as I do.

But thanks for the "experience" despite your not specifying any. Have a nice life.

Edited March 18, 2006 by MrTudo

[MrTudo]

JSixpack, an opinion doesn't get any more worthless than that

[uhuh]

JSixpack, an opinion doesn't get any more worthless than that

You seem not want to hear it but medical care in Vietnam is generally very poor, and for procedures like cardiac surgery you cannot even compare it with Thailand. Thailand gives you a level of care like an average hospital in the West. If you want top-notch world class medicine, you don't get it in Thailand. Singapore and Hong Kong, yes.

[MrTudo]

JSixpack, an opinion doesn't get any more worthless than that

You seem not want to hear it but medical care in Vietnam is generally very poor, and for procedures like cardiac surgery you cannot even compare it with Thailand. Thailand gives you a level of care like an average hospital in the West. If you want top-notch world class medicine, you don't get it in Thailand. Singapore and Hong Kong, yes.

Excuse me but if that's what you read into what I said then you don't read very well.

A) the quote is in response to a post that was in fact worthless and had nothing to do with the quality or lack thereof of medical care in Asia. Far as chelation, my experience wasn't a copy and past job from a jerk off in Pennsylvania who isn't even a medical doctor and in fact is a paid cheerleader from the US medical community. Mine is actual experience.

How do you KNOW? What hospitals are you referring to specifically and what procedures have you actually had done/endured and where?

The purpose of the thread was to solicit feedback on either actual experiences or opinions based on experience. If that wasn't clear, then hopefully it will be now.

[Digger]

I remember seeing something a while (3/4 years ago) about Raffles Medical Group (singapore private hospital operator) opening a limited service (i.e quite small) hospital in Vietnam. I do know though for a fact that many of the multinationals with expat staff in Vietnam ALWAYS medivac them into Singapore, HKG or BKK for anything serious in terms of illness. The reason I know, is that I help set up some of the programmes. I would assume, therefore that these companies did not feel that the health services in Vietnam were sufficient quality.

[MrTudo]

Thanks Digger,

Critical care becomes a very scary topic ( when it's happening to you). Most of us when faced with these situations and most us WILL be faced with them eventually, think the doctors have a solution. In the case of heart disease, what's scariest if there are no bonafide double blind studies which prove that bypass surgery as a case in point lengthens ones life except in a very small and almost infinitesimal way.

Hence I wonder what the real differences are with regard to this type of surgery in Asia and the West. We are getting ripped off by western doctors who will not admit ( unless you word your questions in such a way to suggest you are walking out of his/her office and going elsewhere, which of course in the most socialized of countries that option doesn't really exist) the absense of double blind studies, and certainly won't openly admit that most bypass surgeries ( most) will have to be done again, or that stents almost guarantee a surgery. Meanwhile in the east where the money has not flowed as easily , the focus as a result of necessity seems to be more along the holistic, and philosophy of prevention whereas western and I'll speak about US doctors haven't the time or clue as to these important philosophies or treatments. Hey the guy who "did me" on the chopping block did TWO that day. Mine was over a 100 G's. Contemplate those numbers and think how un-motivated they are to even consider that prevention is a good thing.

That said, I've been to a hospital in Bangkok and evaluated. I have not been to a hospital for this type of critical care in Vnam hence the thread. But I have heard that Franco-Vietnam Hospital is doing good work along these lines and I heard it from a friend of mine who was treated there after refusing treatment in Australia and apparently everything went fine.

I was frankly impressed with the hospital I went to in Bangkok........at least from a standpoint of appearances. However they prescibed STROKE medication to me as a way to quit smoking ( ! ). I guess I would have quit ( everything) had I continued taking that presciption, not just smoking.

Mr T

[JSixpack]

JSixpack, an opinion doesn't get any more worthless than that

a copy and past job from a jerk off in Pennsylvania who isn't even a medical doctor and in fact is a paid cheerleader from the US medical community.

The purpose of the thread was to solicit feedback on either actual experiences or opinions based on experience.

from (cough) CANADA, a double-blind study that looks a lot like actual experience:

"In 2001, researchers at the University of Calgary reported that cardiac patients receiving chelation therapy fared no better than those who received placebo treatment. The patients were randomly assigned to get intravenous infusions twice weekly for 15 weeks and monthly treatments for 12 more weeks. Thirty-nine patients in each group completed the 27-week protocol and were followed for about six more months. The chelation and placebo groups showed no difference in exercise capacity or feelings of well-being, but both groups increased their ability to walk on a treadmill by an average of one minute [7]. Edzard Ernst, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of complementary medicine who has closely examined published reports on chelation therapy, responded to the report with this comment:

The present study is of immense importance. The authors screened a huge number of patients to eventually include 84 in the trial. The trial was conducted carefully and with appropriate endpoints. The results show significant improvements in both groups. Imagine this had been an uncontrolled study: its results would have been celebrated by the 'chelation lobby' as a proof of efficacy! One now also understands the strikingly discrepant results of controlled and uncontrolled trials [8]. Luckily, in this trial, we have a placebo control group. The group comparisons yield no significant differences. Perhaps there was a type II error? The answer is no: the authors have done their homework well and did include a proper power calculation. I am therefore confident to concede that this was a definitive study and that chelation does not benefit heart patients beyond the placebo effect. Given its costs and risks, it should therefore be banned from the therapeutic repertoire of CAM [9]."

Quack Watch

But a person has a right to his placebos and his spiritual beliefs, and I won't try to upset yours further. In fact, let me help out by informing you that Coretta Scott King's "alternative medicine" clinic in Mexico has been shut down after her death there: Clinic Shutdown. But happily this one is still open to welcome your funds for most anything that ails you: Santa Monica. Perhaps they may have a blue-light special on chelation.

I think you'll find that no one around here has had exactly your proposed surgery in Thailand as he/she also has had done in Viet Nam, and compared each as well with having no such surgery (all for the bona fide double-blind/ACTUAL EXPERIENCE) requirement). Yes, I fear that your concrete evidence requirement, which led you to chelation in the first place , is simply too rigorous for our humble forum! Hence, if it boils down to expense and just whatever you want to believe, you might also consider Burma, Laos, and Bangladesh.

Best of luck and bye now, MrTudo.

[uhuh]

Thanks Digger,

Critical care becomes a very scary topic ( when it's happening to you). Most of us when faced with these situations and most us WILL be faced with them eventually, think the doctors have a solution. In the case of heart disease, what's scariest if there are no bonafide double blind studies which prove that bypass surgery as a case in point lengthens ones life except in a very small and almost infinitesimal way.

Hence I wonder what the real differences are with regard to this type of surgery in Asia and the West. We are getting ripped off by western doctors who will not admit ( unless you word your questions in such a way to suggest you are walking out of his/her office and going elsewhere, which of course in the most socialized of countries that option doesn't really exist) the absense of double blind studies, and certainly won't openly admit that most bypass surgeries ( most) will have to be done again, or that stents almost guarantee a surgery. Meanwhile in the east where the money has not flowed as easily , the focus as a result of necessity seems to be more along the holistic, and philosophy of prevention whereas western and I'll speak about US doctors haven't the time or clue as to these important philosophies or treatments. Hey the guy who "did me" on the chopping block did TWO that day. Mine was over a 100 G's. Contemplate those numbers and think how un-motivated they are to even consider that prevention is a good thing.

That said, I've been to a hospital in Bangkok and evaluated. I have not been to a hospital for this type of critical care in Vnam hence the thread. But I have heard that Franco-Vietnam Hospital is doing good work along these lines and I heard it from a friend of mine who was treated there after refusing treatment in Australia and apparently everything went fine.

I was frankly impressed with the hospital I went to in Bangkok........at least from a standpoint of appearances. However they prescibed STROKE medication to me as a way to quit smoking ( ! ). I guess I would have quit ( everything) had I continued taking that presciption, not just smoking.

Mr T

FV Hospital is probably the best hospital in Vietnam and they do a good job providing health care of reasonable quality in a country like Vietnam. But there is no way you copuld compare them with hospitals in Bangkok.

[uhuh]

"How do you KNOW?"

I am a medical doctor and my work includes assessment of hospitals in Vietnam and Thailand. We routinely evacuate patients from Vietnam, usually to Bangkok.