Should We Learn The Language?

[Naam]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

[Neeranam]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

I think it is easy, I've looked at the process and am going to apply. It may take 3 years or longer but will be well worth it. There's a points system based on job, education etc. Need to have a yellow house registration which was easy.

Most think it's too hard and can't be bothered trying IMO.

[laislica]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

+1, although for some unknown reason I am very good with the Thai Numbers,and I can add up and subtract Etc,better than most Thais.

Just thought,that does't mean much,as most Thais require a calculator to add one and one.

Guys, are you in the "older brigade"?, find it hard to learn?

I can recommend Learn Thai Podcast, find it on the web.

There is some free stuff that is just what a beginner needs

You can download some mp3 files and some with video to help read/write if you want to go that far.

Just let the mp3's play in the background, don't actively listen, do it say when driving. I did this with German, Spanish and Thai. It doesn't matter how old you are, it works, especially if you give your self permission to learn and remember!

Steadily a few words will suddenly become familiar and you will start to recognise them when listening to the S(ignificant) O(ther) chatting to family/friends.

What ever happens, do not let on that you are beginning to understand.

Just keep up the listening in private and one day surprise the <deleted> out of em........

Go for it lads - you can do it.

Oh, maybe when you are that good (and it doesn't take long, honest) go for the whole course, I did, not too expensive and especially if you can catch a special offer....

Good luck.

[Neeranam]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

So Naam, are you saying you can't learn or don't want to learn?

[roamer]

It never hurts to learn a new language, or even to learn anything new. It keeps your brain active and that is always a good thing. However, most Asian languages are tonal, and just a slight change in tone changes the meaning entirely. Learning all those tones is very diffiucult for a westerner who is not trained to listen to tones. I can't imagine how hard it must be for someone who is hearing impaired.

English has become the universal language because no matter how much you mangle it, the basic concept is still understood. However, I heard some London England guys talking and I barely understood what they were saying. But, when I listened closely I realized they were actually speaking English.The same can be said for some Welsh and a few Scotts. Deep south USA lingo is sometimes strange as well.

" However, most Asian languages are tonal, and just a slight change in tone changes the meaning entirely."

Please not that old chestnut again, lost count of the amount of people who use the fact that they have not learnt Thai due to the difficulty in "mastering" tones.

Yes tone changes can completely change the meaning of a word, and completely different Thai words can still sound identical to Western ears. However even if you are strangling the language you'll be understood if you have sufficient vocabulary. Tones or similar sounding words are rarely a cause of misunderstanding provided your able to string a few words together, context is key, a waiter will know your ordering rice and not a mountain.

Strange how many farang who have taken time to acquire some vocabulary and probably have far less than perfect pronunciation (and know it!) never seem to have problems being understood most of the time

Btw. Rene I do take your point, just hate to see folk using it as an excuse.

Edited April 23, 2013 by roamer

[LingLek]

If you want to inhabit the culture, rather than merely spectate it, of course you must. If you want to understand other people, you have to speak their language. If you want to keep your distance and difference, then stick to English or whatever it is you speak.

[laislica]

It turns out I'm too stupid to learn Thai. After 16 years of trying and failing miserably I concluded that my time was better spent learning how to survive here without knowing the language.

you might not be too stupid but it could also be your age and your hearing capability. the ability of hearing and/or discerning high frequency sounds diminishes with every year after age 25. learning a tonal language when you have problems to differentiate between consonants when your wife sits only two meters from you and you mainly here the vowels of the word she speaks disqualifies you from learning Thai. period!

the afore mentioned is only one of the facts some ignorant and arrogant Farangs do not take into consideration when they present their ridiculous and heartbleeding claims how wonderful life has become, how their brain cells were protected from Alzheimer's, how they now understand Thai culture and how they are able to rip off any Thai who has nothing else in mind than ripping off a Farang... after they learned to communicate and participate in highly sophisticated conversations such as "whatcha cookin' for supper today?" or "hey neighbour, what be da weather morrow, rain or shine?"

now i am waiting patiently for more fairy tales such as how much less their dogs are salivating, their grass looks much greener, the chickens laying more and bigger eggs, the village headman awarded them with a decoration and that they are entitled to report every 89 instead of every 90 days with immigration.

Naam, wow, how do you know all this as facts?

I thought everyone was an individual and that it is not correct to generalise.

I have read amny of your posts and there is a huge amount of wisdom in them in general.

I take my hat off to you, I salute you and ask you to tell me the secret of how you know this stuff.

Now perhaps I should tell you that I met an amazing German chap in Spain a good few years ago.

He also knew everything, his secret was that he moved around with his eyes open and he asked questions all the time.

He knew stuff like why they would have a flat roof here or a higher pointy one there, why certain plants should be planted together (or specifically not). A million things. His trailer was also full of books.

So, tell me your secret, please.

[GooEng]

Thai is not among the easiest languages (French, Italian, Indonesian)

for Westerners but it is very far from being the most difficult

(Chinese, Japanese, Arabic)

no offence meant Khun Jayboy but i think you possess a wealth of no idea when

it concerns the languages you mentioned.

No offence taken because it's not my original thought.It's the view of many professional linguists including the astonishingly accomplished J.Marvin Brown whom many older hands will remember as the main developer of the AUA Thai Course.

A linguist by definition is some one accomplished in languages. Sometimes these same professionals have no idea how hard it is for others to learn languages. I personally have a difficult time with the tones. Also trying to find an accomplished teacher within the confines of my work schedule. The few Thai words and statements I know often hit a brick wall. Not solely due to pronunciation but also the inability of many Thais in hearing thai from a foreigner.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

I understand your problem with some Thais inability to even realize that the farang i speaking Thai.

I just downloaded a Thai reading application on my ipad for my 6 year old daughter and thought wow, if they had had this 20 years ago it would have saved me so much time. Great app with sound - learn all the different tones, letters etc.

May I ask the name of that App or the publisher, website, etc. Thank you.

Talking Thai app for iOS by Paiboon publishing.

Expensive but excellent.

Sent using the iPad App.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

I think it is easy, I've looked at the process and am going to apply. It may take 3 years or longer but will be well worth it. There's a points system based on job, education etc. Need to have a yellow house registration which was easy.

Most think it's too hard and can't be bothered trying IMO.

Less than 40k monthly taxable, don't bother.

Yearly contract, don't bother.

That's just excluded 95% of potential applicants.

[farang000999]

If you have money it means that you can speak the local language in any country you visit.

[Iusedtocycle]

I was learning Thai, 2 hours a week with a private teacher, for a few months and it was going well. However the teacher's brother was killed in gang related violence and she headed back home to bangkok.

That was 5 months ago and I never got around to finding another private teacher. My time in thailand ends in a few weeks and I really regret leaving without being able to speak the language.

The wife is no use as a teacher but I think she doesn't want me to learn anyway.

[Neeranam]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

I think it is easy, I've looked at the process and am going to apply. It may take 3 years or longer but will be well worth it. There's a points system based on job, education etc. Need to have a yellow house registration which was easy.

Most think it's too hard and can't be bothered trying IMO.

Less than 40k monthly taxable, don't bother.

Yearly contract, don't bother.

That's just excluded 95% of potential applicants.

Really? I think most expats would earn a lot more than that. Nothing wrong with yearly contracts, as long as you've been paying tax continuously. I know one guy who didn't even have a job but got it in less than 2 years.

[BradinAsia]

Fluency is difficult, the tonal aspect of Thai ( and other Asian languages ) is effectively a cunning barrier against learning for we of a Western extract.

This issue has been the topic of conversation a few times in the last few days in my residence/hotel. My attitude is that it's retarded not to be able to count to 10 in Thai, not to know the words for left and right, not to be able to return a greeting in Thai.

Seriously, think about it........" I've lived here for three years and I can't count to 10 ".

Shocking and ignorant.......shame can be a good motivator to learn.

The tonal aspect of Thai is often invoked by those who don't know it as being a major obstacle to learning the language.It isn't.

Thai is not among the easiest languages (French, Italian, Indonesian) for Westerners but it is very far from being the most difficult (Chinese, Japanese, Arabic)

The language test you set (counting up to 10 etc) for foreigners after 3 years is absurd.After a fortnight - if that - seems about right.

What does it really mean when we say that a language is difficult or easy?

Japanese is usually very easy for Koreans to learn. And vice versa.

Indonesian is very easy for filipinos, because the languages are related.

Whether acquiring a new language is "difficult" or not largely depends on

how different the person's mother tongue is from the new language. Also,

whether they've previously learned a similar language.

For me, Chinese was very easy. Russian was quite complex, but not really

that difficult once I got serious about it.

Japanese is surely the most difficult language I've ever learned, but it's the

one I'm most fluent in now (other than English).

When a person says they speak Thai fairly well, but that it has not benefited

them much -- based on my experience, they are not being entirely honest,

and in fact, probably have learned very little Thai.

The posters who say that learning Thai has been a life-changing experience

-- these are obviously the guys who have actually learned Thai.

BTW, Japanese and Korean are Asian languages, but are not tonal languages.

[Ambrosia]

If I am in the USA, I expect people to speak English and get frustrated when people try to make the country "dual language" with Spanish. There is nothing wrong with speaking Spanish in the USA, but English is the national language and people should know how to speak it. I feel the same way about Thai and Thailand.

My view is that it is, at the very least, polite to learn the language(s) of the country you are going to live in. I plan to take classes to learn as much Thai as I can. As a side note, the USA has no official language, due to the fact that three major countries systematically stamped out as much native culture as possible while colonizing.

[charmonman]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Many disadvantages? Could you name a few? I can't think of any. How could being able to communicate with the majority of people around you have disadvantages?

[theblether]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Many disadvantages? Could you name a few? I can't think of any. How could being able to communicate with the majority of people around you have disadvantages?

Some would say when you hear the casual racism that many Thais employ it would be disadvantageous to your daily enjoyment.

Luckily I'm not anywhere near fluent so ignorance is bliss.

[charmonman]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

Could you clarify? You start by saying it is very easy to get Thai citizenship, and then you end by saying it is very difficult.

I am pretty sure there are language requirements, both reading and writing, that many would find difficult to pass.

[charmonman]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Many disadvantages? Could you name a few? I can't think of any. How could being able to communicate with the majority of people around you have disadvantages?

Some would say when you hear the casual racism that many Thais employ it would be disadvantageous to your daily enjoyment.

Luckily I'm not anywhere near fluent so ignorance is bliss.

On the rare occasions where I have experienced this sort of casual racism directed at me, I have been able to respond to the perpetrator in fairly fluent Thai. The shock, confusion, and embarrassment experienced by them gave me great pleasure.

[theblether]

To integrate into the community you need to be Thai. Learning the language is not relevant to that concept.

Learning Thai has other advantages when outside the main tourist areas, but it also has many disadvantages.

It won't stop them calling you the "f" word either.

Many disadvantages? Could you name a few? I can't think of any. How could being able to communicate with the majority of people around you have disadvantages?

Some would say when you hear the casual racism that many Thais employ it would be disadvantageous to your daily enjoyment.

Luckily I'm not anywhere near fluent so ignorance is bliss.

On the rare occasions where I have experienced this sort of casual racism directed at me, I have been able to respond to the perpetrator in fairly fluent Thai. The shock, confusion, and embarrassment experienced by them gave me great pleasure.

I was merely answering your question. ............and good on you for having the fluency to embarrass the perps.

Some of us would be tongue tied though.

[Neeranam]

Neeranam If you are married to a Thai and have paid tax for 3 years, it's very easy to get Thai citizenship, much easier than many developed countries. You don't even need to be able to read and write Thai.Please explain how you think they are never going to give it to you. Don't know why you think this,as it's just not so. Very difficult and is usually a long process for a Farang to obtain Thai citizenship. Simple check out how many farangs gain a Thai passport each year.

Could you clarify? You start by saying it is very easy to get Thai citizenship, and then you end by saying it is very difficult.

I am pretty sure there are language requirements, both reading and writing, that many would find difficult to pass.

I never said the end of the above

[Eesat]

Italian Opera.

Many of the traditional operas were sung in Neapolitan, so most Italians (and everyone else) can't understand the language, but they still attend.

I assume you are joking and not comparing watching or listening to an opera for a couple hours - and passively enjoying the way it sounds plus knowing the story from copious amounts of available summaries etc - to living much of one's daily life surrounded by people speaking a language you don't understand and with whom your interaction would very often be to one degree or another limited.

It would be a ridiculous analogy if you were serious.

There are plenty of Brits living in Spain for example,who don't speak a word of Spanish!

and i think you might find that the majority on thi board who think it pointless, or claim they are unable to learn thai are brits as well.

Spanish and Italians are very poor with languages also,it's not just the Brits!

[roamer]

For a start, it is not “falang” – the word is spelt ฝรั่ง (for- faa ฝ ror-reua ร mai hannakart ฮั mai aek อ่ ngor-ngu ง). It does not have an ‘l’ ( ล lor ling). Don't speak like a peasant unless you want to be treated as one. And, yes you should learn it. Would you expect everyone in Germany to speak English? Or in Swaziland? Learn to read too. Once you know the written language and the tone matrix it all starts to fall into place.

Correct, though a little harsh. You are referring to the OP I take it. It could well be that within the environs that he is trying to learn Thai that is the pronunciation he hears most frequently. Spend long enough in the boonies I would probably end up doing it myself, well no but...

Saw that he also mentioned he was trying to learn Thai via computer, most likely through an AV method, hear the words and see them on screen...using the Roman alphabet to represent sounds that it is incapable of representing . Visual memories are stronger, when you try to recall a word you are more likely to remember it's inaccurate spelling and pronounce what you read rather than what you heard.Use an aural method to learn Thai you are at least in with a chance of learning the correct pronunciation.

Transliteration, how to succeed in speaking Thai badly.

[Eesat]

My experience of trying to learn French in Quebec (after six years of school study in the states) put me off efforts to learn that language completely.

I later found, but much too late, that French people (outside Paris) are pretty cool about people trying to learn their language.

Completely different

Most French people are happy for you to learn their language and everyone is speaking the same words. The French are happy to correct your errors.

Many Thai people are extremely wary of foreigners learning Thai. There are many different versions using completely different words. Thai culture expressly forbids correcting other people's errors.

French, Spanish and Portuguese, very easy languages to learn, everyone helpful, many resources, many trained teachers, common script.

Thai, nobody to help, teachers very poor, resources limited, different script. Almost impossible for all except the most talented foreigners to learn.

It's exactly xactly as Lucjoker says.

If you think that Portuguese is an easy language to learn you really,really know nothing about Portuguese!

[GooEng]

I'm amazed that people who live here even debate the issue of whether or not to learn the language. It's a given - anyone choosing to live anywhere that another language is used should learn the lingo.

It's NOT hard to learn a passable and very useful amount of Thai, spoken and read - writing is another matter far more learning involved and far less necessary & useful to the vast majority of expats. Anyone living here who hasn't made the effort to learn the basics is denying themselves all kinds of things - understanding, respect, depth of experience and knowledge, fun ...

Sent using the iPad App.

Edited April 23, 2013 by GooEng

[notmyself]

The problem for me is that I cannot blank it out, turn it into white noise if you like. English is my native tongue but I can blank it out. I also understand a fair amount of German, French and Polish but again I can blank it out. When I'm sitting in a bus, train or restaurant for example I hear what utter inane trash people are talking about and it drives me nuts. In a restaurant I change seat or leave but on a bus or train it's not so easy. I often find the same in English etc. but I can switch it off meaning it is not Thai specific. If I COULD switch off my understanding of Thai there is no question I would put more time into learning it.

[bifftastic]

Thai culture expressly forbids correcting other people's errors.

I must remember to tell my friends that, perhaps they haven't read that 'rule', or any other rule that expressly forbids anything.

I'm interested though, how does a culture expressly forbid something? I know things can be generally regarded as 'things that shouldn't be done'. There are also things that people may be culturally influenced 'not to do'. Equally, there will be people who think differently and will use their own judgement as to how they should behave.

But, given that a culture is an amalgamation of ideas and values, inherited, changed, altered, interpreted, re-interpreted, abused, misquoted, ignored by some of the very people it's supposed to apply to, and is by and large, quite difficult to define in absolute terms.

How does it expressly do anything?

Is there a book?

[laislica]

The problem for me is that I cannot blank it out, turn it into white noise if you like. English is my native tongue but I can blank it out. I also understand a fair amount of German, French and Polish but again I can blank it out. When I'm sitting in a bus, train or restaurant for example I hear what utter inane trash people are talking about and it drives me nuts. In a restaurant I change seat or leave but on a bus or train it's not so easy. I often find the same in English etc. but I can switch it off meaning it is not Thai specific. If I COULD switch off my understanding of Thai there is no question I would put more time into learning it.

I know exactly what you mean. The first period in a new country with an unknown language and all the stuff that goes on around you is just meaningless noise.

However, after a while, you start to understand what kids on the beach are shouting or adults nearby.

Given more learning time and it can grate, cos now you can understand much of what goes on.

No longer is ignorance bliss!

[GooEng]

There's no question that if you DID learn Thai properly you definitely would want to blank some of it out. For all the positives I mentioned in my earlier post, I do get bloody sick sometimes of the comments I hear (about myself, others and things in general) that are made thinking i will not understand, and it's not a class thing or "the company i keep", it goes on everywhere from banks to bar beers, airports, markets, boutiques, hotels... you name it, there's a snide comment for every occasion in every location in LOS

Sent using the iPad App.

Edited April 23, 2013 by GooEng

[notmyself]

There's no question that if you DID learn Thai properly you definitely would want to blank some of it out. For all the positives I mentioned in my earlier post, I do get bloody sick sometimes of the comments I hear (about myself, others and things in general) that are made thinking i will not understand, and it's not a class thing or "the company i keep", it goes on everywhere from banks to bar beers, airports, markets, boutiques, hotels... you name it, there's a snide comment for every occasion in every location in LOS

Sent using the iPad App.

Don't care what they say about me or others, it's the endless drivel which offends me.

[StreetCowboy]

If I am in the USA, I expect people to speak English and get frustrated when people try to make the country "dual language" with Spanish. There is nothing wrong with speaking Spanish in the USA, but English is the national language and people should know how to speak it. I feel the same way about Thai and Thailand.

/quote]

My view is that it is, at the very least, polite to learn the language(s) of the country you are going to live in. I plan to take classes to learn as much Thai as I can. As a side note, the USA has no official language, due to the fact that three major countries systematically stamped out as much native culture as possible while colonizing.

I think people in places like Texas and Southern California have bee speaking Spanish longer than they've been American. When one is part of an aggressively expanding nation, one has to accept that one will pick up a few Johnny Foreigners along the way

SC