Uk Settlement Visa Options For Thai Stepdaughter

[paul771]

Hi

I am British and my Thai wife and her daughter are planning on applying for Uk settlement visas in about 6 months time. Because my stepdaughter will have just turned 17 around the time we plan to apply, we are unsure about the best option for her. If we bring her now she will miss the final year of her schooling here but if we wait for her to finish then she will be over 18 and then I believe ineligible for the settlement visa.

Some further info concerning sole responsibility: I have lived with my wife in Thailand for 4 years and in that time her daughter has lived mostly with us, apart from on 2 occasions over the last 2 years when my wife and I visited my parents in the UK (2 two month periods), and because of school activity related obligations, she had to stay at her grandmothers house where her father also resides. At the time of applying for my wifes visitation visas we had put on the form that her daughter was living with her father, although we meant it as only temporarily until we returned. My wife and her daughters father were never legally married (just had the ceremony) and seperated when her daughter was about 3 and since that time my wife has had sole custody (signed document form also) and her daughter has always lived with her. My wife and I also have a 3 year old daughter who has British/Thai nationality and also lives with us and she has a very close relationship with her step sister.

I have a few questions for any experts here if I may. Based on the above, and also that we can meet the £72,000 cash financial requirement and have a place to live in the Uk:

1) Would it seem likely in your view that a settlement visa for my wife and more specifically, her stepdaughter would be granted easily if applied for in 6 months time as planned?

2) How soon must one travel to the Uk after the visa is granted? Is it possible to apply before shes 18 but then not leave until shes finished her schooling here at 18? If so then how does this affect the 5 year living in the Uk probationary period before ILR?

3) If no 2 above isn't possible and she has to apply after finishing school over 18, would a student visa be a viable option for now with regards to future settlement?

4) What about adult dependent visas?

Thanks for your time. Any helpful feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Thai Visa Express]

In my opinion ( and remember that it is only my opinion, as you will probably get other views on this), the answers are :

1. Your wife should qualify easily for a visa. Your stepdaughter's visa may be a problem for exactly the reason you have identified. It is now a matter of record that she lived with her father. To convince the ECO that you meant that she lived with her father only temporarily might not be easy, and even the fact that it was only temporarily could lead the ECO to refuse the application as he believes that responsibility was "shared". You will need to present a very good argument, and documentary evidence, that tips the balance in favour of sole responsibility by your wife.

2. You have 3 months to travel after the visa is issued ( it is issued for 33 months, which gives 3 months to travel, and 30 months to meet the requirement of leave to qualify for the next "Further Leave to Remain" period ( also of 30 months ). You can also defer the visa issue date by 3 months, so in theory the holder could travel just under 6 months after the visa is issued.

3. Any student visa application will be treated on its merits. She would have to meet the requirements, and the visa might not lead to settlement after studies are finished.

4. She will not, on the information you given so far, qualify for an adult dependent visa. The requirements for this are that the applicant :

You can apply to join a settled person in the UK if:

• You need long-term personal care to perform every day tasks, such as washing and cooking.
• The care you need is not available in the country where you are living, either because it is not available and there is no person in the country where you are living who can reasonably provide it or it is not affordable.
• Your sponsor can show that he or she is able to provide adequate maintenance, accommodation and care for you without having to rely on public funds. Your sponsor will need to sign a sponsorship undertaking form to confirm that they will be responsible for your care without relying on public funds for a period of at least 5 years.

Tony M

[7by7]

I agree with Tony on the visa aspects; but I do have something to add from another angle.

Namely, what's best for the girl?

We were in a similar situation when my wife and I married; she has a son and a daughter from her previous marriage. At the time (2000) her son was 16 years 9 months old and her daughter 1 month shy of 10.

Her daughter came to the UK with her mother; there was never any doubt about that. But her son was a different matter.

As he was soon to enter his last year of high school with (unless he cocked it up) a university place assured we decided, after much discussion and thought, that it would be best for him if he remained in Thailand with my wife's sister and continued his education there.

It was a hard decision to make, but we believed bringing him to the UK, where he would enter a different education system in a different language, would be far worse for him in the long run than remaining in Thailand and completing his education there.

It was not an easy decision to make, believe me. His mother missed him terribly; still does. But in the end I think it was the right one. He graduated from university and has embarked upon a successful career in banking; a path I believe it would have been impossible for him to follow had he changed to a completely different education system in a strange language at the age of 16.

Another factor to consider is that local education authorities are only obliged to provide a school place to children up to the age of 16; your step daughter is 17.

I see you have already considered the education factor; but only until the end of high school. What are her plans for when she finishes school?

In other words, what does she want to do; move to the UK or stay in Thailand?

We involved my step-son fully in the discussions and at the end it was basically his decision to remain in Thailand. How much input into this has your step-daughter had?

[paul771]

In my opinion ( and remember that it is only my opinion, as you will probably get other views on this), the answers are :

1. Your wife should qualify easily for a visa. Your stepdaughter's visa may be a problem for exactly the reason you have identified. It is now a matter of record that she lived with her father. To convince the ECO that you meant that she lived with her father only temporarily might not be easy, and even the fact that it was only temporarily could lead the ECO to refuse the application as he believes that responsibility was "shared". You will need to present a very good argument, and documentary evidence, that tips the balance in favour of sole responsibility by your wife.

2. You have 3 months to travel after the visa is issued ( it is issued for 33 months, which gives 3 months to travel, and 30 months to meet the requirement of leave to qualify for the next "Further Leave to Remain" period ( also of 30 months ). You can also defer the visa issue date by 3 months, so in theory the holder could travel just under 6 months after the visa is issued.

3. Any student visa application will be treated on its merits. She would have to meet the requirements, and the visa might not lead to settlement after studies are finished.

4. She will not, on the information you given so far, qualify for an adult dependent visa. The requirements for this are that the applicant :

You can apply to join a settled person in the UK if:

• You need long-term personal care to perform every day tasks, such as washing and cooking.
• The care you need is not available in the country where you are living, either because it is not available and there is no person in the country where you are living who can reasonably provide it or it is not affordable.
• Your sponsor can show that he or she is able to provide adequate maintenance, accommodation and care for you without having to rely on public funds. Your sponsor will need to sign a sponsorship undertaking form to confirm that they will be responsible for your care without relying on public funds for a period of at least 5 years.

Tony M

I agree with Tony on the visa aspects; but I do have something to add from another angle.

Namely, what's best for the girl?

We were in a similar situation when my wife and I married; she has a son and a daughter from her previous marriage. At the time (2000) her son was 16 years 9 months old and her daughter 1 month shy of 10.

Her daughter came to the UK with her mother; there was never any doubt about that. But her son was a different matter.

As he was soon to enter his last year of high school with (unless he cocked it up) a university place assured we decided, after much discussion and thought, that it would be best for him if he remained in Thailand with my wife's sister and continued his education there.

It was a hard decision to make, but we believed bringing him to the UK, where he would enter a different education system in a different language, would be far worse for him in the long run than remaining in Thailand and completing his education there.

It was not an easy decision to make, believe me. His mother missed him terribly; still does. But in the end I think it was the right one. He graduated from university and has embarked upon a successful career in banking; a path I believe it would have been impossible for him to follow had he changed to a completely different education system in a strange language at the age of 16.

Another factor to consider is that local education authorities are only obliged to provide a school place to children up to the age of 16; your step daughter is 17.

I see you have already considered the education factor; but only until the end of high school. What are her plans for when she finishes school?

In other words, what does she want to do; move to the UK or stay in Thailand?

We involved my step-son fully in the discussions and at the end it was basically his decision to remain in Thailand. How much input into this has your step-daughter had?

Hi, thanks for your reply. I was aware that the fact we said she lived with her father on previous visa forms, and didn't explain that it was temporary and that her Grandmother was the main person responsible might be an issue. At that time we were more concerned with getting the visitation visa quickly and weren't yet at the point of thinking about settlement visas. It does seem like a no win situation though since surely almost all thai children in this situation would have lived with their fathers or had enough contact at some point to give the ECO exactly the reasons they need to refuse. She lives with us, we make all the financial decisions concerning her life and every important decision she has to make in her life is made after consultation with us. Her father and his family do not have the ideal living conditions, education nor drive for her to get what she really needs and wants from her life. Her father is happy that she wants to go to the Uk with us as he knows we can provide a far better life for her and as for my stepdaughter herself, we have discussed the situation many times with her and it is what she wants. She understands the difficulties awaiting her in another country but is prepared to work hard to learn and fit into British life as she knows that it will be beneficial for her future. I believe that the father would even sign a statement as such if it would make any difference to the final decision.

If we decide to go ahead anyway with the applications, would you have any ideas regarding presenting the best arguments and documents? From your experiences in these matters, what percentage chance would you give that we might be successful? If this option is dead then we will have to pursue the student visa option after shes finished school here. She wants to study english there anyway, and we may enrol her in a course in Thailand for a year before hand to prepare her but I haven't researched about the different tiers etc and really don't know much about that side of things yet.

[7by7]

This is the guidance issued to ECOs regarding sole responsibility; SET7.8 What is sole responsibility?

Note that the sponsoring parent must have been exercising sole responsibility for some time; shared responsibility wont meet the requirement; even if responsibility has been shared with members of the other parent's family rather than the other parent him/herself.

You need to convince the ECO that, on the balance of probabilities, your wife has been exercising sole responsibility (Edit: Tony M is far better placed to advise on how to do that than I). A letter from the father agreeing to his daughter migrating to the UK is not, by itself, enough.

Before deciding on the student route you should read Studying in the UK

Note that, apart from student visitors, this category is points based, and most of the points come from being sponsored by an approved educational establishment.

If she wants to come to the UK to study English she must apply under the Tier 4 category, even if she is under 18. See Can you apply?

It is extremely unlikely that if she comes to the UK to study English that she will later be able to apply for settlement; unless she meets and marries a UK resident!

[Thai Visa Express]

7x7 is correct. A letter from the father giving permission for the child to go to the UK can, in fact, be counterproductive as the ECO can say that this is a decision, in the child's life, made by the father. Therefore, the father is showing some responsibility. Therefore the mother cannot have sole responsibility. I would actually go further than 7x7 and say that the requirement to show sole responsibility goes further than the balance of probabilities, and is pretty hard to prove. Often in these type of case the application is refused by the UKBA in Bangkok, and then overturned at an appeal hearing in the UK. The immigration judges actually consider the best interests of the child, which ECOs tend not to do. This appeal process, however, takes time, and can mean an extra 8 months or so in getting the refusal decision reversed. And, of course, there is no guarantee that you will win the appeal.

Trying for the visa will cost you the visa fee ( currently 851 GBP). If the application is refused, then an appeal will cost a further 80 or 140 GBP. So, it's an expensive exercise. You ask for a percentage chance of the visa being issued. On the information you have given, I would say no more than 35 - 40% ( purely because of the fact that you have said that the father has some responsibility), and that is on record. There is nothing to stop you making a new case for "sole responsibility" but it will need to be solid and documented.

[7by7]

A letter from the father giving permission for the child to go to the UK can, in fact, be counterproductive as the ECO can say that this is a decision, in the child's life, made by the father. Therefore, the father is showing some responsibility. Therefore the mother cannot have sole responsibility.

Excellent point; not something I had considered.

[paul771]

A letter from the father giving permission for the child to go to the UK can, in fact, be counterproductive as the ECO can say that this is a decision, in the child's life, made by the father. Therefore, the father is showing some responsibility. Therefore the mother cannot have sole responsibility.

Excellent point; not something I had considered.

In that case, how about a signed statement from the father explaining how he walked out on his daughter at 2 years old and also how he now absolves himself of any responsibility towards her?

[Thai Visa Express]

A letter from the father giving permission for the child to go to the UK can, in fact, be counterproductive as the ECO can say that this is a decision, in the child's life, made by the father. Therefore, the father is showing some responsibility. Therefore the mother cannot have sole responsibility.

Excellent point; not something I had considered.

In that case, how about a signed statement from the father explaining how he walked out on his daughter at 2 years old and also how he now absolves himself of any responsibility towards her?

With respect, the ECO will probably not give it much weight as evidence, especially as it directly contradicts what you have previously stated in a visa application. Plus, it still shows that there is contact with the child's father ( whether the child has contact or not is a matter of opinion, and the ECO's opinion will count). Other things that the ECO will consider are, where does the father live ( is it close ? If so, then it is likely there is contact ) ? You say that when you applied for the visit visa you said that the child was living with grandparents. Was that your wife's parents, or the child's father's parents ? If it was paternal grandparents, then that is another negative in a potential application, as if the child was with father's parents, then it is again difficult to show sole responsibility on the part of the mother ( the ECO will expect the child to have been with maternal family, not paternal family).

As stated earlier, you will have to make strong case for sole responsibility. It is not impossible, but it will certainly not be easy. It is probable that the ECO will try to refuse the visa application, but you may well win any appeal. That said, each case is different, and will stand or fall on the evidence provided and the "argument" submitted to back up the application. You have a lot in your ( your wife's ) favour, but it is not going to be easy to get over the written record that the ECO has.

[paul771]

A letter from the father giving permission for the child to go to the UK can, in fact, be counterproductive as the ECO can say that this is a decision, in the child's life, made by the father. Therefore, the father is showing some responsibility. Therefore the mother cannot have sole responsibility.

Excellent point; not something I had considered.

In that case, how about a signed statement from the father explaining how he walked out on his daughter at 2 years old and also how he now absolves himself of any responsibility towards her?

With respect, the ECO will probably not give it much weight as evidence, especially as it directly contradicts what you have previously stated in a visa application. Plus, it still shows that there is contact with the child's father ( whether the child has contact or not is a matter of opinion, and the ECO's opinion will count). Other things that the ECO will consider are, where does the father live ( is it close ? If so, then it is likely there is contact ) ? You say that when you applied for the visit visa you said that the child was living with grandparents. Was that your wife's parents, or the child's father's parents ? If it was paternal grandparents, then that is another negative in a potential application, as if the child was with father's parents, then it is again difficult to show sole responsibility on the part of the mother ( the ECO will expect the child to have been with maternal family, not paternal family).

As stated earlier, you will have to make strong case for sole responsibility. It is not impossible, but it will certainly not be easy. It is probable that the ECO will try to refuse the visa application, but you may well win any appeal. That said, each case is different, and will stand or fall on the evidence provided and the "argument" submitted to back up the application. You have a lot in your ( your wife's ) favour, but it is not going to be easy to get over the written record that the ECO has.

She was living with us but then stayed with her paternal grandmother for 2 months in each of the last 2 years when my wife and I visited the Uk. Her father technically lives in that house also but isn't always around. My wifes mother has lived in Italy for over a decade and her father died a few years ago so the grandmothers house was the only half acceptable option locally without moving her to stay with even lesser known relatives in Nakhon Sawan or Chiang Mai which wouldn't have been possible because of her schooling in Bangkok. The house is maybe 25 minutes drive away from ours on a good traffic day.

I understand all your points and appreciate that it will be difficult since we made the earlier mistake of not writing "grandmother" as the place she would be staying at and also that it would only be temporary. It sounds to me as if the ECO's here would refuse even if the father were a drug dealing, serial killing child abuser, in prison for life, just because he might occasionally bother to call his child once a month for 5 minutes to apologise. Seems like madness but not much I can do except give it a go and hold out for the appeal if neccessary or do the student option even though there won't be any settlement at the end of it. At least then she'll get maybe a few years with us while studying and can visit from time to time after that if finances allow.

[7by7]

Whilst I understand your frustration, comments such as

It sounds to me as if the ECO's here would refuse even if the father were a drug dealing, serial killing child abuser, in prison for life, just because he might occasionally bother to call his child once a month for 5 minutes to apologise.

do not help your cause.

I trust that you are merely venting your spleen here and that your submission in her visa application will be more reasoned!

It was your mistake to say that she was staying with her father whilst her mother was visiting the UK with you; but even had you said grandmother it would still show that her father's family, if not the father himself, were around and taking an active interest in her welfare.

You have to explain why you said she was living with her father while her mother was away and convince the ECO that this was an extraordinary situation and that her mother is solely responsible for her and has been for a substantial period..

To have any chance of success you must keep emotion out of it.

The ECOs in Thailand follow the same rules as those in every other country; rules which are set by Parliament.

The relevant part of the Immigration Rules is Para 297(i)(e)

297. The requirements to be met by a person seeking indefinite leave to enter the United Kingdom as the child of a parent, parents or a relative present and settled or being admitted for settlement in the United Kingdom are that he:

(i) is seeking leave to enter to accompany or join a parent, parents or a relative in one of the following circumstances:

(e)one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and has had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing

In my opinion, this is right as it protects the rights of the parent who is not emigrating to the UK; even though it may be hard on the parent who is.

You may be able to convince the ECO that Para 297(i)(f) applies

one parent or a relative is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which make exclusion of the child undesirable and suitable arrangements have been made for the child's care

But considering her age, I think that would be even more difficult than showing sole responsibility.

[paul771]

Whilst I understand your frustration, comments such as

It sounds to me as if the ECO's here would refuse even if the father were a drug dealing, serial killing child abuser, in prison for life, just because he might occasionally bother to call his child once a month for 5 minutes to apologise.

do not help your cause.

I trust that you are merely venting your spleen here and that your submission in her visa application will be more reasoned!

It was your mistake to say that she was staying with her father whilst her mother was visiting the UK with you; but even had you said grandmother it would still show that her father's family, if not the father himself, were around and taking an active interest in her welfare.

You have to explain why you said she was living with her father while her mother was away and convince the ECO that this was an extraordinary situation and that her mother is solely responsible for her and has been for a substantial period..

To have any chance of success you must keep emotion out of it.

The ECOs in Thailand follow the same rules as those in every other country; rules which are set by Parliament.

The relevant part of the Immigration Rules is Para 297(i)(e)

>>

297. The requirements to be met by a person seeking indefinite leave to enter the United Kingdom as the child of a parent, parents or a relative present and settled or being admitted for settlement in the United Kingdom are that he:

(i) is seeking leave to enter to accompany or join a parent, parents or a relative in one of the following circumstances:

(e)one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and has had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing

In my opinion, this is right as it protects the rights of the parent who is not emigrating to the UK; even though it may be hard on the parent who is.

You may be able to convince the ECO that Para 297(i)(f) applies

one parent or a relative is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and there are serious and compelling family or other considerations which make exclusion of the child undesirable and suitable arrangements have been made for the child's care

But considering her age, I think that would be even more difficult than showing sole responsibility.

Agreed, my spleen has now been sufficiently vented for the time being but my submission in her visa application would of course be much more reasoned, with any negative emotion left out of it. I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't be the first person you will have come across who didn't have similar frustration though. I realise that the ECO's follow certain immigration rules to guide them in their decisions but the fact, as you mentioned, that many refusals are then often overturned by immigration judges on appeal tells me that something is either odd in their interpretation of sole responsibility, or the rules themselves are just too rigid for such a complicated issue. I realise that my argument here is pointless, but in my opinion, a father should not be able to take away sole responsibility for his child from the mother in the ECO's eyes just because he might take the time to say hello from time to time, and maybe make conversation on the phone occasionally if he can be bothered, while her mother has spent a good 15 years of her life toiling to support the child alone with no help before I came along.

Thanks for all your help. I will study your advice and then make a decision as to what is the best possible option.

[Tony M]

"Agreed, my spleen has now been sufficiently vented for the time being but my submission in her visa application would of course be much more reasoned, with any negative emotion left out of it. I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't be the first person you will have come across who didn't have similar frustration though. I realise that the ECO's follow certain immigration rules to guide them in their decisions but the fact, as you mentioned, that many refusals are then often overturned by immigration judges on appeal tells me that something is either odd in their interpretation of sole responsibility, or the rules themselves are just too rigid for such a complicated issue. I realise that my argument here is pointless, but in my opinion, a father should not be able to take away sole responsibility for his child from the mother in the ECO's eyes just because he might take the time to say hello from time to time, and maybe make conversation on the phone occasionally if he can be bothered, while her mother has spent a good 15 years of her life toiling to support the child alone with no help before I came along."

You are, of course, correct. ECO's seem determined to refuse these applications, and for what seems like no good reason. And that's why many of the decisions in child applications get overturned at appeal. UKBA are often criticised for not considering the best interests of the child applicant, yet they continue to refuse. They wrongly interpret the odd phone call from an absent parent as "shared" responsibility, and it seems impossible to change their mindset. It's inexplicable.

Tony M

[7by7]

The ECOs do not use the immigration rules as a guide; the rules are the rules and the ECOs must abide by them.

To aid them reach a decision they do refer to the Entry Clearance Guidance and other guidance/instructions issued to them by the UKBA/Home Office.

As far as sole responsibility is concerned, the guidance shows that the other parent and/or their family needs to have taken a bit more of an interest in the child's upbringing than that they

might take the time to say hello from time to time, and maybe make conversation on the phone occasionally if he can be bothered

But according to what you have twice told the ECOs in her mother's previous visit visa applications, your step daughter's father does take an active interest in her welfare.

As for how many child settlement applications which are refused on sole responsibility grounds are subsequently overturned on appeal; I have no idea. Tony M said 'often' but what proportion that represents, and of those successful appeals in how many cases the tribunal was given extra evidence which the ECO was not privy to, I have no idea.

Edit, typing above while Tony M was posting. My opinion is based on the official publications whereas his is based upon his experiences. Obviously he has the practical experience in this area that I lack as the only child settlement visa I have been actively involved in is my step daughters, and her natural father had not had any contact for many years so this wasn't an issue.

I would still be very interested to learn how many child settlement visas refused on sole responsibility grounds are overturned on appeal.

[Tony M]

The ECOs do not use the immigration rules as a guide; the rules are the rules and the ECOs must abide by them.

To aid them reach a decision they do refer to the Entry Clearance Guidance and other guidance, instructions issued to them by the UKBA/Home Office.

As far as sole responsibility is concerned, the guidance shows that the other parent and/or their family needs to have taken a bit more of an interest in the child's upbringing than that they

might take the time to say hello from time to time, and maybe make conversation on the phone occasionally if he can be bothered

But according to what you have twice told the ECOs in her mother's previous visit visa applications, your step daughter's father does take an active interest in her welfare.

As for how many child settlement applications which are refused on sole responsibility grounds are subsequently overturned on appeal; I have no idea. TVE said 'often' but what proportion that represents, and of those successful appeals in how many cases the tribunal was given extra evidence which the ECO was not privy to, I have no idea.

Fair comment, 7x7. What I should have said is that many of the child settlement applications from Thailand are overturned at appeal. That is fact, as Paul and I have been involved in several. What happens in other countries, I can't really say as I'm out of contact with many of my former ECO colleagues in those countries. One of the main reasons for refusal being overturned is that the ECO did not consider the best interest of the child.

[7by7]

Thanks for that, Tony; note that I edited my previous while you were posting.

May I add that some time ago I posted that the ECO should consider the best interests of the child, and a past regular poster from Liverpool shot me down in flames!

[paul771]

The ECOs do not use the immigration rules as a guide; the rules are the rules and the ECOs must abide by them.

To aid them reach a decision they do refer to the Entry Clearance Guidance and other guidance/instructions issued to them by the UKBA/Home Office.

As far as sole responsibility is concerned, the guidance shows that the other parent and/or their family needs to have taken a bit more of an interest in the child's upbringing than that they

might take the time to say hello from time to time, and maybe make conversation on the phone occasionally if he can be bothered

But according to what you have twice told the ECOs in her mother's previous visit visa applications, your step daughter's father does take an active interest in her welfare.

As for how many child settlement applications which are refused on sole responsibility grounds are subsequently overturned on appeal; I have no idea. Tony M said 'often' but what proportion that represents, and of those successful appeals in how many cases the tribunal was given extra evidence which the ECO was not privy to, I have no idea.

Edit, typing above while Tony M was posting. My opinion is based on the official publications whereas his is based upon his experiences. Obviously he has the practical experience in this area that I lack as the only child settlement visa I have been actively involved in is my step daughters, and her natural father had not had any contact for many years so this wasn't an issue.

I would still be very interested to learn how many child settlement visas refused on sole responsibility grounds are overturned on appeal.

Yes, it was a mistake to name her father as the person she was living with on my wifes previous visitation visa forms and it was actually my fault. We were not very knowledgable about even visitation visas at that time, I had booked flights already and I was concerned about the possibility of it being refused, thinking in part, and in hindsight wrongly, that they might refuse based on her daughter not being properly looked after while we were away, hence the fathers name rather than the grandmothers. The father lived at the same address anyway so I figured using his name would seem more responsible in the eyes of anyone making the final decision. Regardless if it was the grandmothers name that we used or the fathers, it was only meant to mean temporarily while we were away but again, we made the mistake of not detailing that fact as we weren't even considering future settlement then, let alone any future implications. My stepdaughter got on ok with the grandmother, the father was named but the reality is that he took little or no interest in her welfare despite living in the same house and continues the same to this day.

The sole responsibility guidance link that you kindly provided doesn't help matters either when it states:

"If the sponsoring parent and child are separated, the child will normally be expected to have been in the care of the sponsoring parent's relatives rather than the relatives of the other parent. An application should normally be refused if the child has been in the care of the other parent's relatives and the other parent lives nearby and takes an active interest in the child's welfare."

She has been in the care of my wife almost completely for 15 years but looking at that guidance, it would seem that ECO's must refuse even on the basis of 2x 2 month trips to the Uk.

[Tony M]

Which is why I asked if the child had stayed with maternal or paternal grandparents while you were in UK.

[paul771]

It seems that this issue is starting to get the attention it deserves, the financial aspect anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22806941

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22833136

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22868332

[Jay Sata]

I agree with 7by7 on this.

She'll find it hard to get a degree in the UK and this is a crucial period in her education.

As someone who had two children in boarding school from the age of 11 I found it hard at the time being separated

but it has proved good for them.

(One is a tv news producer and the other gained a commission in the Royal Navy.)

Good luck with whatever you choose.

[paul771]

I agree with 7by7 on this.

She'll find it hard to get a degree in the UK and this is a crucial period in her education.

As someone who had two children in boarding school from the age of 11 I found it hard at the time being separated

but it has proved good for them.

(One is a tv news producer and the other gained a commission in the Royal Navy.)

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Thanks for your comment Jay. I agree that it would not be easy for her but don't believe that it is completely impossible if she really pushes herself. I expect that we will have to leave her here and then bring her over as a student to study for an english degree when she is over 18. It's still spitting the family up and leaving her with family members that won't be much of a positive influence though which is the main issue.