Liverpool F.c.

[mrbojangles]

He called Evra "Negro" <deleted> how much more guilt do you want ???

Have you read the report of the hearing? If you have, you will know that they investigated the use of the word in that region and accepted that it is widely used as both an affectionate term and also as an offensive term, dependant on the way you say it. So it wasn't the use of the word alone that caused them to find him guilty.

You are simply quoting the 'defence' argument. The FA DID NOT accept it.

Wrong. Read the attached. para (3) page 112. The FA accepted expert evidence that the word is used in both an affectionate and offensive terms. However, they believed he used it in an offensive manner. I was only stating above that the word alone was not the reason they found him guilty.

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/Disciplinary/NewsAndFeatures/2011/~/media/Files/PDF/TheFA/Disciplinary/Written%20reasons/FA%20v%20Suarez%20Written%20Reasons%20of%20Regulatory%20Commission.ashx

[cardholder]

He called Evra "Negro" <deleted> how much more guilt do you want ???

Have you read the report of the hearing? If you have, you will know that they investigated the use of the word in that region and accepted that it is widely used as both an affectionate term and also as an offensive term, dependant on the way you say it. So it wasn't the use of the word alone that caused them to find him guilty.

You are simply quoting the 'defence' argument. The FA DID NOT accept it.

Wrong. Read the attached. para (3) page 112. The FA accepted expert evidence that the word is used in both an affectionate and offensive terms. However, they believed he used it in an offensive manner. I was only stating above that the word alone was not the reason they found him guilty.

http://www.thefa.com...Commission.ashx

I apologise but we are still splitting hairs. The FA did not accept what Suarez said.

[mrbojangles]

I apologise but we are still splitting hairs. The FA did not accept what Suarez said.

Maybe it's down to my contractual experience but I don't believe it's splitting hairs, these are critical factors in the case. This is totally different to your initial post that i responded to. In this instance, you are quite right. The FA said "Mr Suarez's evidence was unreliable in relation to matters of critical importance".

Anyway. What am I doing in here. I'm off to the City thread. We're top of the league you know

[Abrak]

I apologise but we are still splitting hairs. The FA did not accept what Suarez said.

Neither did the FA accept what Evra claims to have said.

Paragraph 181. 'The experts noted that the use of the verb form "porque tu eres negro" is not the most usual

form for Montevidean Spanish'

Paragraph 182. 'The experts considered it worth noting that the phrase "porque tu eres negro" struck both

of them as slightly unusual.'

Paragraph 191. 'The question "Por qué, negro?" as transcribed in Mr Suarez's interview sounded right

linguistically and culturally and is in line with the use set out by Mr Suarez.'

The key point in terms of guilt refers to para 180.....The experts noted that, in interview, Mr Evra translated the word "negro" as French

"nègre", which is translatable as both "Negro" and "nigger" and in current French usage is

clearly a racially offensive term. The more neutral term in French is "noir".

It was unfortunate for Suarez that despite Evra openly admitting that he knew enough Spanish to insult Suarez.....

Para 178 Mr Evra stated that the goalmouth incident started when he addressed Mr Suarez,

beginning with the phrase "Concha de tu hermana". According to the experts, the literal

translation is "your sister's cun_t"

...his Spanish was not good enough to know that 'negro' was a generic term for the word 'black' and that he got confused and thought it was a term for the word 'nigger'......

Edited February 13, 2012 by Abrak

[MiG16]

I just said something on the ManU thread, which might be worth repeating here? even though the level of emotions might be a bit calmer already

calm down lads

seeing how this Suarez - Evra saga has been going, might be best we leave it here and just let it rest?

there are going to be differing opinions, and no point in bringing the antoginising feel to what has always been good natured humour and banter on our footie forum

back to the games shall we cheers

I know Im on the wrong thread, but while Im here, might as well leave a plug - we've got a big game coming up mid week!

PS. truth be told, Im probably repeating myself just so I can throw in that last line again

[carmine]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

[Abrak]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

Well there are about 3 questions there.

The first thing to say is that it is debatable to what extent Suarez has done anything wrong apart from get on the wrong end of the publicity machine. To the extent he has made mistakes it is also arguable whether the club has compounded those mistakes through their own actions.

I would be very surprised if the club took Suarez's actions as a sign they should sell him. More likely they will feel, if anything, they have not handled his case well. There is little doubt that he is more an asset to the club than a liability.

From KD's perspective I think he has handled a difficult situation pretty well, although not perfectly. It would be strange to resign over such an issue. I doubt there are many supporters who could honestly say they would have handled matters better.

As for Suarez wanting to leave and move elsewhere, that is perfectly possible. It would be easy for him to think that he had been treated badly.

[Devil]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

Well there are about 3 questions there.

The first thing to say is that it is debatable to what extent Suarez has done anything wrong apart from get on the wrong end of the publicity machine. To the extent he has made mistakes it is also arguable whether the club has compounded those mistakes through their own actions.

I would be very surprised if the club took Suarez's actions as a sign they should sell him. More likely they will feel, if anything, they have not handled his case well. There is little doubt that he is more an asset to the club than a liability.

From KD's perspective I think he has handled a difficult situation pretty well, although not perfectly. It would be strange to resign over such an issue. I doubt there are many supporters who could honestly say they would have handled matters better.

As for Suarez wanting to leave and move elsewhere, that is perfectly possible. It would be easy for him to think that he had been treated badly.

Fair points Abrak - personally I can see him wanting to leave come the summer and I don't blame him. All that surrounds the English Premier League has become a farce of late.

"Bastion of Invincibility" Liverpool Football Club.

[nellyp]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

Where has this info come from? I have not read that "Standard Chartered are so annoyed by recent events".to be honest this sounds like tabloid journalism undertaken by WUMs. Where do you get this crap. By the way did you hear about Harry Rednap being put in charge of the bank of england? Apparently he will save us a load on tax. That headline comes from........who knows where, but does that matter??????????No.

oooppps hand s up and apologies all round. i really did know nothing about this, and to be honest I don't want to. They are our sponsers not our owners or masters. they can go twiddle as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the look of our tops with their logo on it and am quite sure we can replace them tout suite. Hopefully with a less demanding sponser. Who do they think they are saying we should buy more players from Asia to increase their profile. Basically f&*k Off. Should we really be taking lessons in morals from a bank?????????????????????????????????

Edited February 14, 2012 by nellyp

[carmine]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

Where has this info come from? I have not read that "Standard Chartered are so annoyed by recent events".to be honest this sounds like tabloid journalism undertaken by WUMs. Where do you get this crap. By the way did you hear about Harry Rednap being put in charge of the bank of england? Apparently he will save us a load on tax. That headline comes from........who knows where, but does that matter??????????No.

oooppps hand s up and apologies all round. i really did know nothing about this, and to be honest I don't want to. They are our sponsers not our owners or masters. they can go twiddle as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the look of our tops with their logo on it and am quite sure we can replace them tout suite. Hopefully with a less demanding sponser. Who do they think they are saying we should buy more players from Asia to increase their profile. Basically f&*k Off. Should we really be taking lessons in morals from a bank?????????????????????????????????

Nelly's posts have brought so much to the forum, wit, knowledge and general good humour aside.

[nellyp]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

Where has this info come from? I have not read that "Standard Chartered are so annoyed by recent events".to be honest this sounds like tabloid journalism undertaken by WUMs. Where do you get this crap. By the way did you hear about Harry Rednap being put in charge of the bank of england? Apparently he will save us a load on tax. That headline comes from........who knows where, but does that matter??????????No.

oooppps hand s up and apologies all round. i really did know nothing about this, and to be honest I don't want to. They are our sponsers not our owners or masters. they can go twiddle as far as I'm concerned. I don't like the look of our tops with their logo on it and am quite sure we can replace them tout suite. Hopefully with a less demanding sponser. Who do they think they are saying we should buy more players from Asia to increase their profile. Basically f&*k Off. Should we really be taking lessons in morals from a bank?????????????????????????????????

Nelly's posts have brought so much to the forum, wit, knowledge and general good humour aside.

[StevieH]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

i can see why standard chartered did what they did carmine, but i wouldn't expect them to go as far as saying 'sell the player'. i don't like their involvement but it is what it is. according to better informed than most journos the sale of suarez for this is simply not being considered.

i think there's every chance that suarez will want to move in the summer, depending on how much <deleted> he gets from the press and opposing fans between now and the summer. i'm also expecting lots of stories about madrid and barca being interested in him.

i'd be very surprised if kenny considered his position on this but then who knows? he's not used to being undermined from the top down as a manager. we'll see.

i am though totally and utterly bored of talking about this subject and just want to move on and get on with the bloody football. here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast, magic of the cup, on we go. would be ace if suarez got to win a couple of cups this season though.

[alfieconn]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

i can see why standard chartered did what they did carmine, but i wouldn't expect them to go as far as saying 'sell the player'. i don't like their involvement but it is what it is. according to better informed than most journos the sale of suarez for this is simply not being considered.

i think there's every chance that suarez will want to move in the summer, depending on how much <deleted> he gets from the press and opposing fans between now and the summer. i'm also expecting lots of stories about madrid and barca being interested in him.

i'd be very surprised if kenny considered his position on this but then who knows? he's not used to being undermined from the top down as a manager. we'll see.

i am though totally and utterly bored of talking about this subject and just want to move on and get on with the bloody football. here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast, magic of the cup, on we go. would be ace if suarez got to win a couple of cups this season though.

I think your forgetting whos still in the FA cup stevie,you'd better just make do with the Milk Cup and not get above your station me thinks

[StevieH]

I think your forgetting whos still in the FA cup stevie,you'd better just make do with the Milk Cup and not get above your station me thinks

oh far from it alfie, i'm too long in the tooth for counting poultry before it exists. brighton this weekend is very much as lynn faulds-wood would have it a potential banana skin.

i'm by no means discounting cardiff either, however large favourites we may be for the rumbelows.

Edited February 15, 2012 by StevieH

[cardholder]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

i can see why standard chartered did what they did carmine, but i wouldn't expect them to go as far as saying 'sell the player'. i don't like their involvement but it is what it is. according to better informed than most journos the sale of suarez for this is simply not being considered.

i think there's every chance that suarez will want to move in the summer, depending on how much <deleted> he gets from the press and opposing fans between now and the summer. i'm also expecting lots of stories about madrid and barca being interested in him.

i'd be very surprised if kenny considered his position on this but then who knows? he's not used to being undermined from the top down as a manager. we'll see.

i am though totally and utterly bored of talking about this subject and just want to move on and get on with the bloody football. here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast, magic of the cup, on we go. would be ace if suarez got to win a couple of cups this season though.

I think we are all bored with the subject but a couple of interesting bits have come out of it.

1. Despite a slightly myopic support for Suarez (until the handshake debacle) Dalgleish comes out this with increasing stature.

2. Although I think that Suarez is a tw4t, he is a great footballer and I agree that this is certainly not a 'selling incident'.

[StevieH]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

i can see why standard chartered did what they did carmine, but i wouldn't expect them to go as far as saying 'sell the player'. i don't like their involvement but it is what it is. according to better informed than most journos the sale of suarez for this is simply not being considered.

i think there's every chance that suarez will want to move in the summer, depending on how much <deleted> he gets from the press and opposing fans between now and the summer. i'm also expecting lots of stories about madrid and barca being interested in him.

i'd be very surprised if kenny considered his position on this but then who knows? he's not used to being undermined from the top down as a manager. we'll see.

i am though totally and utterly bored of talking about this subject and just want to move on and get on with the bloody football. here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast, magic of the cup, on we go. would be ace if suarez got to win a couple of cups this season though.

I think we are all bored with the subject but a couple of interesting bits have come out of it.

1. Despite a slightly myopic support for Suarez (until the handshake debacle) Dalgleish comes out this with increasing stature.

2. Although I think that Suarez is a tw4t, he is a great footballer and I agree that this is certainly not a 'selling incident'.

i don't expect us to agree about this but i feel that kenny's been used as a pinata by the club. i'm pretty disgusted with ian ayre to be honest.

suarez might be a <deleted> but he's our <deleted>. he's done nothing comparable to cantona, keane, giggs, schmeichel etc. and ferguson defended those player to the hilt.

[Abrak]

Heres a question for Liverpool fans;

What with the owners and Standard Chartered being so annoyed by recent events do you think that JW Henry will instruct the sale of Luis Suarez in the summer?

Secondly is it possible/likely that Dalglish would resign under those circumstances?

Maybe Suarez will want to leave anyway which can't be ruled out.

i can see why standard chartered did what they did carmine, but i wouldn't expect them to go as far as saying 'sell the player'. i don't like their involvement but it is what it is. according to better informed than most journos the sale of suarez for this is simply not being considered.

i think there's every chance that suarez will want to move in the summer, depending on how much <deleted> he gets from the press and opposing fans between now and the summer. i'm also expecting lots of stories about madrid and barca being interested in him.

i'd be very surprised if kenny considered his position on this but then who knows? he's not used to being undermined from the top down as a manager. we'll see.

i am though totally and utterly bored of talking about this subject and just want to move on and get on with the bloody football. here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast, magic of the cup, on we go. would be ace if suarez got to win a couple of cups this season though.

I think we are all bored with the subject but a couple of interesting bits have come out of it.

1. Despite a slightly myopic support for Suarez (until the handshake debacle) Dalgleish comes out this with increasing stature.

2. Although I think that Suarez is a tw4t, he is a great footballer and I agree that this is certainly not a 'selling incident'.

i don't expect us to agree about this but i feel that kenny's been used as a pinata by the club. i'm pretty disgusted with ian ayre to be honest.

suarez might be a <deleted> but he's our <deleted>. he's done nothing comparable to cantona, keane, giggs, schmeichel etc. and ferguson defended those player to the hilt.

Stevie, I guess it is a matter of opinion. I dont think that say Suarez has done anything wrong but I think he should have shaken hands with Evra not out of any principle but he is paid a lot of money to generally enhance and protect the clubs image rather than his own. I just think the right thing for him to have done (leaving all personal differences aside) was to shake hands for the good of the clubs image. (I also feel that the club decided not to appeal against his case (not because they felt it was right but it was the most productive thing to do).

I suspect that Ian Ayre is in a position he wouldnt like to be but damage control is often the best of the worst options.

[rixalex]

Stevie, I guess it is a matter of opinion. I dont think that say Suarez has done anything wrong but I think he should have shaken hands with Evra not out of any principle but he is paid a lot of money to generally enhance and protect the clubs image rather than his own. I just think the right thing for him to have done (leaving all personal differences aside) was to shake hands for the good of the clubs image. (I also feel that the club decided not to appeal against his case (not because they felt it was right but it was the most productive thing to do).

I suspect that Ian Ayre is in a position he wouldnt like to be but damage control is often the best of the worst options.

I think LFC have badly mismanaged this whole saga from the beginning. In the lead up to the hearing, they were well within their rights to defend Suarez vigorously, but i don't think having the manager or the players doing so, be it with either comments made or with t-shirts printed, was the right way of going about it. Speaking in his defence should have been left to the club's advisers and spokespeople. Manager and players should have left their comments at something along the lines of "everyone here fully supports the kick racism out campaign... no further comment".

No need to get into the specifics of the case, nor any need to declare Suarez as innocent - i mean, it's not like they really could have known, as the only "evidence" that they seemed to be going on, was the word of their player. This is how it came across: "Suarez says he didn't intend his comments to be in a racially abusive manner so he must be telling the truth, ergo because he is a Liverpool player... Evra must be lying, ergo because he isn't". Pretty silly.

After the hearing outcome was announced - which i agree by the way seemed harsh in terms of its punishment, and i agree should have considered taking some sort of action regarding the comments Evra is supposed to have made - LFC had the choice of either appealing or taking it on the chin - something along the lines of, "we adamantly feel that Suarez is not a racist and that his comments were never intended to be so, but we accept that language and cultural differences have caused confusion and misunderstanding, and that Suarez's appreciation of these differences was lacking - we and Suarez apologise for this and reiterate our and the club's commitment to stamping out all forms of racism".

Instead what LFC did was to not appeal, but then to show not an iota of culpability or contrition for all that happened, and to make themselves out as complete victims under unfair persecution - i think this showed how one-eyed they were viewing it all, and it was this general attitude from the club as a whole that i think played a major role in Suarez's decision to not shake hands with Evra - the manager telling him in one ear that he should shake hands, but in the other telling him he was completely innocent and that Evra was a lying low-life bastard - or words to that affect.

As i say, badly mismanaged from the get-go.

[SantiSuk]

"here's to a win against the seagulls at the weekend. lovely spring day on the coast". Stevie - take it from another northener who has lived close to Brighton. Mid to late Feb is rarely a lovely spring day, even in Brighton and even to us hardy souls!!

[Devil]

http://www.theanfiel...le-ignorance-2/

Edit: Sorry - some issues when posting via iPad.

Good piece from John Barnes, he also seemed the only ex player/pundit to give some commone sense to the whole Suarez situation in some other pieces.

To tackle racism, we must tackle ignorance

By John Barnes

IT’S not about football, it’s about destroying modern myths of colour, race and superiority

In 1987 a black friend of mine went into a shop to buy a coat. He asked the assistant if they had it in black and she said no, they only had it in nigger brown. She was a lovely woman, but what would we say if that happened today?

If I were to ask players of my generation if they had made a racist comment in a football match, anyone honest would almost certainly say yes. No one batted an eyelid 20 years ago. Now when Alan Hansen says “coloured” rather than “black” (because black used to be an insult) or Luis Suárez says “negrito”, everyone jumps up and down to distance themselves from such remarks. They believe racism has been consigned to the past.

When Thierry Henry led the campaign to kick racism out of football it might have changed attitudes towards Henry, but it didn’t change anything for the black guy on the Holloway Road. I am often asked if black players can make good managers. That is an inherently racist question, built on an assumption that a manager’s qualities are based on colour, even though the people asking it don’t mean it to be.

The Football Association ticks all the right boxes with its policies and campaigns, the Government passes legislation, the Prime Minister gets involved because someone didn’t shake someone’s hand, people queue up to say ignorance is no excuse. But they are wrong. Ignorance is the excuse. To stop it, we have to start talking seriously about race.

The idea that race is about colour is relatively modern. When Aristotle spoke about races he was differentiating between uncivilised barbarians and civilised Greeks. But it was introduced by governments, backed by the Church, to validate slavery and colonialism, to justify treating some people as less equal than others. Just as Linnaeus classified plants, so people were classified by the colour of their skin. Academics tried to prove differences in skull formation to give scientific support to the idea that black people were morally and intellectually inferior.

But race is not a scientific reality. You could find a tribe in Africa who are genetically closer to Europeans than to an African tribe a hundred miles away. Some Saudis have whiter skin than Italians.

The notion of “whiteness” is an ideology of superiority. Nothing similar has ever existed in black culture. Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda do not see themselves as the same. When the Labour MP Diane Abbott talked on Twitter about “divide and rule” her claims depended on a sense of black identity that wasn’t correct.

Empires that conquer new territory find they cannot impose their own ideas for long. The only way to evolve is to assimilate cultures. The Greeks and Romans learnt that and we are learning it now in Britain.

In the 1970s when the Arsenal and England footballer Ian Wright arrived from Jamaica, his family would have retained their Caribbean identity. And Tony Adams, his Arsenal and England team-mate, would have had his English culture. But their children, like other black, white and Asian children, have grown up together and formed a new British culture.

I was on a train listening to four boys who all sounded like Vicky Pollard. One was black and one was white and, in what sounds like a joke, the others were Asian and Chinese. Their shared culture superseded any sense of race.

It would probably be the same for John Terry and Anton Ferdinand. If they were at a nightclub they would be more likely to gravitate to each other because they wear the same jeans and move in the same world than to someone of the same colour who had nothing in common with them.

As long as racism exists in society it will exist in football. Passing laws saying it is illegal might stop fans shouting abuse in public, but it won’t stop racist feelings any more than theft laws stop people stealing. It won’t stop if we ban players who make racist remarks.

As football finds itself at the heart of arguments about handshakes and insults, let’s use it to make real progress. There is a positive change between the generations and we can speed that up by destroying some basic myths about colour, race and superiority.

"Bastion of Invincibility" Liverpool Football Club.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Devil

[Abrak]

Stevie, I guess it is a matter of opinion. I dont think that say Suarez has done anything wrong but I think he should have shaken hands with Evra not out of any principle but he is paid a lot of money to generally enhance and protect the clubs image rather than his own. I just think the right thing for him to have done (leaving all personal differences aside) was to shake hands for the good of the clubs image. (I also feel that the club decided not to appeal against his case (not because they felt it was right but it was the most productive thing to do).

I suspect that Ian Ayre is in a position he wouldnt like to be but damage control is often the best of the worst options.

I think LFC have badly mismanaged this whole saga from the beginning. In the lead up to the hearing, they were well within their rights to defend Suarez vigorously, but i don't think having the manager or the players doing so, be it with either comments made or with t-shirts printed, was the right way of going about it. Speaking in his defence should have been left to the club's advisers and spokespeople. Manager and players should have left their comments at something along the lines of "everyone here fully supports the kick racism out campaign... no further comment".

No need to get into the specifics of the case, nor any need to declare Suarez as innocent - i mean, it's not like they really could have known, as the only "evidence" that they seemed to be going on, was the word of their player. This is how it came across: "Suarez says he didn't intend his comments to be in a racially abusive manner so he must be telling the truth, ergo because he is a Liverpool player... Evra must be lying, ergo because he isn't". Pretty silly.

After the hearing outcome was announced - which i agree by the way seemed harsh in terms of its punishment, and i agree should have considered taking some sort of action regarding the comments Evra is supposed to have made - LFC had the choice of either appealing or taking it on the chin - something along the lines of, "we adamantly feel that Suarez is not a racist and that his comments were never intended to be so, but we accept that language and cultural differences have caused confusion and misunderstanding, and that Suarez's appreciation of these differences was lacking - we and Suarez apologise for this and reiterate our and the club's commitment to stamping out all forms of racism".

Instead what LFC did was to not appeal, but then to show not an iota of culpability or contrition for all that happened, and to make themselves out as complete victims under unfair persecution - i think this showed how one-eyed they were viewing it all, and it was this general attitude from the club as a whole that i think played a major role in Suarez's decision to not shake hands with Evra - the manager telling him in one ear that he should shake hands, but in the other telling him he was completely innocent and that Evra was a lying low-life bastard - or words to that affect.

As i say, badly mismanaged from the get-go.

Rix, I think you make your point very clearly and accurately.

But the reason there is a feeling of injustice amongst LFC supporters is because Suarez has been labelled a 'racist'. Look at Red who calls him a 'racist cun_t'. Evra said he did not think he was a racist. The report said they did not think he was a racist. LFC and LFC supporters do not think he is a racist.

As for being a 'cun_t' Red has more support as Evra......Para 178 Mr Evra stated that the goalmouth incident started when he addressed Mr Suarez,beginning with the phrase "Concha de tu hermana". According to the experts, the literal translation is "your sister's cun_t"

The problem is the 'penalty' implied he was a 'racist'. The press implied he was a 'racist' etc... And dont lets pretend calling someone your sisters cun_t is great.I agree we handled the PR very badly and certainly lost that battle. But there is a genuine feeling amongst LFC supporters that it is Suarez that has been more abused here than Evra and that it is Suarez who will be more abused in the future because of this incident.

I am not claiming Suarez is innocent - he has made mistakes but he should not be victimized nor should Evra be held up as the poster boy for racial equality. In my personal opinion both players were needling the other to get a reaction. When Evra says call me that again and I will hit you what is he trying to do? Celebrate your racial superiority within your own oxymoryon.

[rixalex]

But the reason there is a feeling of injustice amongst LFC supporters is because Suarez has been labelled a 'racist'. Look at Red who calls him a 'racist cun_t'. Evra said he did not think he was a racist. The report said they did not think he was a racist. LFC and LFC supporters do not think he is a racist.

My inclination is to look at things from the other direction Abrak. For me, i don't think the problem is Suarez being labelled a racist, because it is my belief that whatever we tell people in public, we all deep down discriminate in one way or another, whether it be by race or by otherwise, but the problem is the implication that Suarez is somehow different from all the other players. I don't really think he is. You could call that unfair, but the trick here is censoring oneself and being aware of what you can say, and what you can't. This is where Suarez failed, and he has paid for that. As i say, thing to do was to have taken it on the chin and stop playing the victim card - don't think that has won the club any support or sympathy whatsoever.

(I should add, that whilst i do believe discrimination inherently common in us all, that's not to say that we can't have love and respect for everyone - just some people might have to work that little bit harder to earn it ((in the case of City supporters, bloody hard! )) ).

[rixalex]

Look at Red who calls him a 'racist cun_t'.

Plenty of emotion on both sides. You could just as easily look at one of your fellow supporters on here who said Suarez should have spat in Evra's face for having the audacity to lower the angle of his handshake by about 10 degrees.

[Abrak]

But the reason there is a feeling of injustice amongst LFC supporters is because Suarez has been labelled a 'racist'. Look at Red who calls him a 'racist cun_t'. Evra said he did not think he was a racist. The report said they did not think he was a racist. LFC and LFC supporters do not think he is a racist.

My inclination is to look at things from the other direction Abrak. For me, i don't think the problem is Suarez being labelled a racist, because it is my belief that whatever we tell people in public, we all deep down discriminate in one way or another, whether it be by race or by otherwise, but the problem is the implication that Suarez is somehow different from all the other players. I don't really think he is. You could call that unfair, but the trick here is censoring oneself and being aware of what you can say, and what you can't. This is where Suarez failed, and he has paid for that. As i say, thing to do was to have taken it on the chin and stop playing the victim card - don't think that has won the club any support or sympathy whatsoever.

(I should add, that whilst i do believe discrimination inherently common in us all, that's not to say that we can't have love and respect for everyone - just some people might have to work that little bit harder to earn it ((in the case of City supporters, bloody hard! )) ).

Rix, I have no problem with what you say. You generally choose your words very carefully and fairly.

Suarez is certainly at fault for calling Evra a 'Negro'. Evra was also at fault for calling Suarez his sisters cun_t. When Evra said if you call me that again I will punch you, Evra was trying to get Suarez to repeat the word so that he could be punished and Suarez was repeating the word so that Evra would punch him and be penalized. I think it was stupid in play insults.

I doubt that Suarez knew how badly his insults would be taken but that is no excuse for making them in the first place.

At the end of the day, an LFC supporter saying that Suarez should have spat in Evra's face is not an excuse for calling Suarez a 'racist cun_t', it is simply an example of the depths to which our supporters on both sides have fallen to a level that is an embarrassment to us all.

[MrRed]

No embarrassment here Abrak or at United.

Suarez and Liverpool and Dalglish for that matter have all said they are sorry that is because they where guilty of undermining the once great club because of one individuals behavior.

Suarez knows what he is and if you look right back to when you signed him....i said he would be more trouble than he is worth then on these very pages.

[rixalex]

Suarez knows what he is and if you look right back to when you signed him....i said he would be more trouble than he is worth then on these very pages.

I thought despite the baggage that he was a great signing and for me, he remains that. The problem has been as much to do with the way LFC have handled his brushes with "the law", as the brushes themselves. And for that, yes, Dalglish takes a lot of the blame. He needs to shape up as much as Suarez does.

[Abrak]

No embarrassment here Abrak or at United.

Suarez and Liverpool and Dalglish for that matter have all said they are sorry that is because they where guilty of undermining the once great club because of one individuals behavior.

Suarez knows what he is and if you look right back to when you signed him....i said he would be more trouble than he is worth then on these very pages.

No embarrassment here Abrak or at United.

Suarez and Liverpool and Dalglish for that matter have all said they are sorry that is because they where guilty of undermining the once great club because of one individuals behavior.

Suarez knows what he is and if you look right back to when you signed him....i said he would be more trouble than he is worth then on these very pages.

Well a fair point you made but I totally disagree.

Not only do I think that Suarez is worth far more than any trouble he has caused, to the extent people believe otherwise, we may have mishandled him at LFC. I believe he has done little wrong and what wrong he has done been blown totally out of proportion.

You call him a 'racist' when Evra, the FA specifically state he is not. You call him a 'cun_t' for the sake of it. He was suspended based on his own admission that he called Evra 'Negro' which he felt was not racist abuse although clearly the FA chose to disagree. Evra called him his sisters cun_t by his own admission there is not a great deal of difference. He has had his life threatened as well as his family's.

If you feel happy to call him a racist cun_t rather than a person that simply said the wrong thing at the wrong time go for it. I dont want Tevez in the PL. You may not want Suarez. I just see him as an exciting player that has made the odd mistake rather than a disgrace to the sport. And I would take his moral compass over Rooney's any day.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Abrak

[rixalex]

And I would take his moral compass over Rooney's any day.

If we are talking about moral compasses on the pitch - which i assume we are as Suarez's private life has i think yet to be delved into in the depth that Rooney's has - besides which unless it involves other team mates, i don't see the relevance - i don' think there is too much wrong with Rooney's. Fiery temper at times yes, but a work rate and an appetite to win that puts 95% of the rest of the players to shame. Cheating? The occasional dive yes, but generally stays on his feet longer than others.

You complain about Suarez being an easy target and unfairly dumped upon, don't you think you are guilty of jumping on exactly the same sort of media driven take a pop at someone successful bandwagon?

[Abrak]

And I would take his moral compass over Rooney's any day.

If we are talking about moral compasses on the pitch - which i assume we are as Suarez's private life has i think yet to be delved into in the depth that Rooney's has - besides which unless it involves other team mates, i don't see the relevance - i don' think there is too much wrong with Rooney's. Fiery temper at times yes, but a work rate and an appetite to win that puts 95% of the rest of the players to shame. Cheating? The occasional dive yes, but generally stays on his feet longer than others.

You complain about Suarez being an easy target and unfairly dumped upon, don't you think you are guilty of jumping on exactly the same sort of media driven take a pop at someone successful bandwagon?

Yes

[nellyp]

Oh dear, back at it again are we? I'm as bad as the rest, but let's no get into all this tit for tat name calling and dragging other peoples behaviour into this again. it's a merry go round I would happily jump off if I could. Or better still if we all could