Liverpool F.c.

[Devil]

I rest my case.

Sooooo easy you lot,always have been,always will be.

Toodle pip.

PST.

Where is Stevie when we need him, at least banter with him is challenging. You two realise their is a children's forum on TV, run along now.

Challenging banter? ha...so why are you posting pics of poo on the forum...that's real kids stuff...I guess it boils down to the fact your just not funny, you've never been to see your team play but go on about Man Ure on the Liverpool forum non stop. Why is it you spend more time on the Liverpool forum than any other. Its ok James just admit your love for LFC its so obvious now.

Hey good news Liverpool are possibly visiting Asia in the off season!they will play in Bangkok, Sing and HK you can then get to see you fave team play in person! then we will leave you alone

Edited March 5, 2009 by Devil

[bkkjames]

I rest my case.

Sooooo easy you lot,always have been,always will be.

Toodle pip.

PST.

Where is Stevie when we need him, at least banter with him is challenging. You two realise their is a children's forum on TV, run along now.

Challenging banter? ha...so why are you posting pics of poo on the forum...that's real kids stuff...I guess it boils down to the fact your just not funny, you've never been to see your team play but go on about Man Ure on the Liverpool forum non stop. Why is it you spend more time on the Liverpool forum than any other. Its ok James just admit your love for LFC its so obvious now.

Hey good news Liverpool are possibly visiting Asia in the off season!they will play in Bangkok, Sing and HK you can then get to see you fave team play in person! then we will leave you alone

Nope, not up to standard yet, keep trying though, you are getting close.

[StevieH]

this is a good read from paul tomkins. far too much common sense in it for the mainstream media to cop on though.

TOMKINS: END SHOCKING TRANSFER MYTH

Paul Tomkins 04 March 2009

Okay, it must end NOW! I've reached breaking point. The shocking transfer myth must be put to rest, once and for all.

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m

Manchester United £206m*

Spurs £188m

Manchester City £140m

Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N...090304-1429.htm

[bkkjames]

Sorry, stevie, that's too long to read.... to summarize - is this just another excuse story?

[StevieH]

it's a common sense deconstruction of the myths put about by the mainstream media james, those ones that are intended to convince plastic football fans that they too are experts and know what they're talking about. so you wouldn't get it.

[bkkjames]

it's a common sense deconstruction of the myths put about by the mainstream media james, those ones that are intended to convince plastic football fans that they too are experts and know what they're talking about. so you wouldn't get it.

Hence why it was only published on LFC.TV then.

[StevieH]

it's a common sense deconstruction of the myths put about by the mainstream media james, those ones that are intended to convince plastic football fans that they too are experts and know what they're talking about. so you wouldn't get it.

Hence why it was only published on LFC.TV then.

well paul tomkins is the official liverpool fc website's resident author, james.

i posted it for the benefit of liverpool fans by the way, and as ever you feel strangely drawn to all things LFC. one day you will have an epiphany, give in and join us jedi instead of continuing down that path of the dark side of the force.

[bkkjames]

it's a common sense deconstruction of the myths put about by the mainstream media james, those ones that are intended to convince plastic football fans that they too are experts and know what they're talking about. so you wouldn't get it.

Hence why it was only published on LFC.TV then.

well paul tomkins is the official liverpool fc website's resident author, james.

i posted it for the benefit of liverpool fans by the way, and as ever you feel strangely drawn to all things LFC. one day you will have an epiphany, give in and join us jedi instead of continuing down that path of the dark side of the force.

actually, if you ever decide to wander over to the general topics forum, old redscouse is really taking it hard on the scouse abuse - not from me I might add.

[StevieH]

it's a common sense deconstruction of the myths put about by the mainstream media james, those ones that are intended to convince plastic football fans that they too are experts and know what they're talking about. so you wouldn't get it.

Hence why it was only published on LFC.TV then.

well paul tomkins is the official liverpool fc website's resident author, james.

i posted it for the benefit of liverpool fans by the way, and as ever you feel strangely drawn to all things LFC. one day you will have an epiphany, give in and join us jedi instead of continuing down that path of the dark side of the force.

actually, if you ever decide to wander over to the general topics forum, old redscouse is really taking it hard on the scouse abuse - not from me I might add.

there's a general topics forum?

[bkkjames]

any thoughts LP lads?

Liverpool 'over-priced', say Kuwaitis

The Kuwaiti family negotiating to buy a stake in Liverpool have threatened to end talks with the club’s American co-owners unless they reduce their £500 million asking price.

Telegraph Sport disclosed last month that the Al-Kharafi family was in talks with Tom Hicks and George Gillett, but the Kuwaitis have taken the unusual step of publicly talking down the price.

It is understood that the talks centre on the Kuwaitis purchasing Gillett’s share with Hicks intent on staying on.

Rafed Al-Kharafi and another potential investor, Abdulla Al-Sager, visited Anfield and the club’s training ground as part of the American’s presentations, but on Thursday Al-Sager said talks had deteriorated. “Things are going really badly because they’re asking for too much,” he said. “I don’t think anything will happen unless we get a better price, but we’re still talking,” he said.

The Al Kharafis are among a number of potential Middle Eastern and American investors talking to Hicks about taking a third-party stake in the club to break the deadlock on the board and help reduce bank debt. Hicks and Gillett bought the club in 2007 for £220m and have a £350m bank facility against the club due to be re-negotiated in July. The relationship between the men has since soured.

It has also emerged that the Al-Kharafis are being sued by former advisers Seymour Pearce for unpaid bills arising from a previous attempt to buy the club last July.

Seymour Pearce chairman Keith Harris is suing the Al-Kharafis for £288,000 in unpaid fees due after he affected the introduction between the Americans and the family, and will increase the claim to cover a success fee if the club do end up under their control.

Harris was allegedly left unpaid after the Al-Kharafis walked away from negotiations without explanation last July. Those negotiations had been started by Gillett, but the most recent talks are an initiative by the Hicks camp.

Hicks is keen to retain a stake in the club and head the management team, with a view to ultimately building a new stadium. Plans to replace Anfield are on hold because of the financial crisis, though planning permission and designs have been agreed.

[StevieH]

they're right. what cost 220m less than 2 years ago has not more than coubled in value, in fact it's worth less than it was thanks to the absurd debt that hicks and gillett have placed on the club (despite promising that they would never do that). the stadium plans have been shelved, we've just sacked our CEO and our two owners, who are both looking to make a profit of about 100m each for actually doing a crap job, hate each other.

my hope is that hicks and gillett will continue to be refused refinancing on their loans and will be forced to sell at a more realistic price.

[MSingh]

The God dam_n Reds are in Thailand & elsewhere in Asia this Summer..

GO LIVERPOOL !!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id...849&cc=4716

Liverpool are planning a pre-season tour of Asia this year with stops in Thailand, Singapore and Hong Kong, officials said on Thursday. The 18-times English league champions have been in talks to visit the three countries in July to fortify the club's massive Asian fan base.

Worawi Makudi, president of the Football Association of Thailand, said he had been approached by Liverpool's representative, former England international Steve McMahon, with a view to setting up the club's third visit to the kingdom in eight years.

"We've had a few meetings already and the visit is very likely to happen," Worawi said. "We have so many Liverpool fans in Thailand, this will be great for them and great for Thai football."

[bkkjames]

Maybe they can sign Joey Barton as a good will ambassador prior to their visit.

[MSingh]

Maybe they can sign Joey Barton as a good will ambassador prior to their visit.

Or get E Hadj back in the famous Shirt...

[Devil]

The God dam_n Reds are in Thailand & elsewhere in Asia this Summer..

GO LIVERPOOL !!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id...849&cc=4716

Liverpool are planning a pre-season tour of Asia this year with stops in Thailand, Singapore and Hong Kong, officials said on Thursday. The 18-times English league champions have been in talks to visit the three countries in July to fortify the club's massive Asian fan base.

Worawi Makudi, president of the Football Association of Thailand, said he had been approached by Liverpool's representative, former England international Steve McMahon, with a view to setting up the club's third visit to the kingdom in eight years.

"We've had a few meetings already and the visit is very likely to happen," Worawi said. "We have so many Liverpool fans in Thailand, this will be great for them and great for Thai football."

Fantastic... I heard the rumors a few months back they may come to Asia.

[mrtoad]

The God dam_n Reds are in Thailand & elsewhere in Asia this Summer..

GO LIVERPOOL !!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id...849&cc=4716

Liverpool are planning a pre-season tour of Asia this year with stops in Thailand, Singapore and Hong Kong, officials said on Thursday. The 18-times English league champions have been in talks to visit the three countries in July to fortify the club's massive Asian fan base.

Worawi Makudi, president of the Football Association of Thailand, said he had been approached by Liverpool's representative, former England international Steve McMahon, with a view to setting up the club's third visit to the kingdom in eight years.

"We've had a few meetings already and the visit is very likely to happen," Worawi said. "We have so many Liverpool fans in Thailand, this will be great for them and great for Thai football."

Fantastic... I heard the rumors a few months back they may come to Asia.

Even as a United fan, I guess I'll make the effort to go along, as it's always good to se top flight teams in action.

[bkkjames]

The God dam_n Reds are in Thailand & elsewhere in Asia this Summer..

GO LIVERPOOL !!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id...849&cc=4716

Liverpool are planning a pre-season tour of Asia this year with stops in Thailand, Singapore and Hong Kong, officials said on Thursday. The 18-times English league champions have been in talks to visit the three countries in July to fortify the club's massive Asian fan base.

Worawi Makudi, president of the Football Association of Thailand, said he had been approached by Liverpool's representative, former England international Steve McMahon, with a view to setting up the club's third visit to the kingdom in eight years.

"We've had a few meetings already and the visit is very likely to happen," Worawi said. "We have so many Liverpool fans in Thailand, this will be great for them and great for Thai football."

Fantastic... I heard the rumors a few months back they may come to Asia.

Even as a United fan, I guess I'll make the effort to go along, as it's always good to se top flight teams in action.

Yes, we may even get to see Agger play!

[Devil]

Torres Injury Boost

Fernando Torres has declared himself fit for Tuesday's game.

The striker has missed Liverpool's last two games after twisting an ankle in the first leg match against Real Madrid. However, he has now recovered and says he will be fit for the second leg this Tuesday and then Saturday's game against Man Utd.

"I hope to be available for both of the matches because they will be two great games," said Torres.

"The ankle injury has been giving me some trouble and the recovery process is taking longer than I hoped.

"However, I am quite optimistic that I will be ready for the match versus Real Madrid, and if the ankle holds out, I will also be at Old Trafford."

LFC Online

[StevieH]

he's due a goal against madrid is nando.

[Jimjim]

All i'm trying to do is engage in an adult discussion. Too much to ask?

Ha ha, angry post? Hardly. Man, I didn't say those things seriously. It was a joke you didn't get and/or I poorly portrayed. Where I said likely the first two (and not the stupid part) I thought I was joining in your game (non-serious, joking game). Just a simple joke. Maybe a stupid or bad joke, but that's how I meant it as it seemed quite obvious you were taking the piss. Not telling me take a schoolmistress tone, or however you termed it, only meant that it was coming and that too, was just a joke. Not serious at all, just having a bit of fun. Sorry, my friends and I call each other stupid all the time.

This is a football forum. Toughen up a bit. People have a go at each other but at least for me, I don't take it seriously. You obviously have. I was saying those things and laughing. If someone else doesn't find it funny, fine, but it's no skin off my back. I don't claim to be hilarious as Ricky Gervais or anything. I can't apologize for what I said but only for the way in which you took it and how strongly it made you feel.

Thanks for clearing that up. I have to say your grammar has really disappointed me here. Wow, your sentence wasn't missing a full-stop (I know you meant to not use one but that doesn't make it any clearer) but a serious re-writing to make grammatical and logical sense in the way you meant it. Not criticizing, I do it all the time. To be make your point clearer, you could have said

Stop kidding yourself in saying Liverpool doesn't have serious money. You do, not the most...

Or, perhaps you meant to say

Stop kidding yourself "Liverpool doesn't have serious money." (rolls eyes)...

Glad I could be of help. Hard to get the inferred meaning that's in your brain without more explanation. Stop kidding yourself in thinking me reading it as you wrote it would have made me understand!

Now, if we want to discuss the original point further I think sanmiguel meant Liverpool don't have Chelsea or Man City or Real Madrid or even ManUsuck type of money and that is quite true. Obviously Liverpool do have more than most. More than Nottingham Forrest or Hull City but he's talking about that extra 50 million quid or so per year that would put Liverpool on equal financial footing with the clubs who have won the Premiership the last four years. Please check out the Tomkins article StevieH quoted and I had already ready myself. Chelsea and Manwe'rerich have squads that cost 100 million quid more than Liverpool's! That's a significant difference.

I agree with him, mostly. It's either going to take more money for Liverpool to get over the hump or a few genius, bargain buys. That said, as is the nature of the fan, I'm optimistic that the challenge is not up for this season. Probably way too optimistic but just the same...

Please take a chill pill yourself. Have a laugh and don't take this whole forum too seriously. I don't. Particularly not the football section. No need for serious, adult discussions here. All I'm trying to do is engage in discussion with Liverpool F.C. fans. Too much to ask?

any thoughts LP lads?

Liverpool 'over-priced', say Kuwaitis

Good job this time on bringing up a good point. That is bonkers. 500 million? For doing what? Those owners need to sell at a loss and get the hel_l out of Liverpool forever.

And StevieH? I seem to remember him run off the rails recently, and at a Liverpool fan. I love his posts, though.

Like I said to rivalex, bkkjames, I am never serious on this thread. Or, even if I am, say things with a laugh as I write them but it's impossible for you to know that reading them, as I can't bring myself to use these queer emoticons all the time.

The God dam_n Reds are in Thailand & elsewhere in Asia this Summer..

Thanks for that. I am definitely going to some of those matches. I'll be looking at plane tickets to Thailand soon, methinks. Awesome.

I wonder if they'll still go to Rafa's favorite place Switzerland taking into account this tour?

[rixalex]

Thanks for the considered reply JimJim. I agree with you that in this medium of communication it's quite easy for people to take things you type the wrong way. It highlights how much extra we take in when speaking with someone face to face, beyond just the words we hear coming from their mouth (or with some from the other end of their body!) and demonstrates that without these little details (like the subtle curling of the mouth, the raising of the eye-brows or a change in tone) how much harder it is to know exactly what they are trying to say and in which manner.

Anyway, when you accused me of trying to be funny or of trying to wind you up (and the words "stupid" and "little boy" also were mentioned) i'll admit i was taken aback because i didn't think there was anything in my comments for you to have read it that way. There are times on this thread when it is undoubtedly about gently winding people up, or banter as we refer to it as - i enjoy this as much as the next poster and am big and ugly enough to take all the well-intentioned insults you care to throw my way! There are other times when you just want to engage in a footballing discussion (of course there are also other times when the two become blurred)!

Well the point i'm making a bad and long-winded job of making was that at the time i was discussing about the money side of Liverpool there wasn't even the slightest hint of goading in my thoughts. Just stating my thoughts and was interested in others opinions.

Regarding my grammar, i apologise if i'm not quite the fine linguist you are (just to be clear my tone is mildly sarcastic). Although i except that my sentence, "stop kidding yourself Liverpool doesn't have serious money", could have been more clearly written as you ably demonstrate, i still think it is understandable and still am confused as to how you got from it the opposite meaning.

Put it this way, if i said "stop kidding yourself you are the the cleverest", would you really think that i was saying that you are the cleverest?

Anyway, apologies for this awfully boring sidetrack. I'm off to take a chill pill or two and have a laugh as instructed by my good Liverpool supporting friend, Mr JJ.

P.S. Wish us luck tonight!

[rixalex]

Not sure if it was all the pills or the 4 - 0 victory, but seemed to have regained the ability to spell "accept" - just to put your mind at rest Jimjim. (no amount of unbridled joy however can help me with any other mis-spelt words you care to find!)

P.S. Been meaning to ask about your name - does it have anything to do with the Thai meaning of the word "Jim"?

[MSingh]

Not sure if it was all the pills or the 4 - 0 victory, but seemed to have regained the ability to spell "accept" - just to put your mind at rest Jimjim. (no amount of unbridled joy however can help me with any other mis-spelt words you care to find!)

P.S. Been meaning to ask about your name - does it have anything to do with the Thai meaning of the word "Jim"?

This one loves it...

[StevieH]

we could be in trouble tomorrow night. arbeloa's still out, torres is doubtful and there are now rumours that benayoun's out too. our squad has proven to be ridiculously thin this season.

[Jimjim]

Where'd you read Torres is a doubt? He's reported to be in contention to start. The Echo says Arbeloa will probably be an option as well. And Benayoun? Are you reading news in Spanish or something? Didn't hear anything about him being injured. The only injuries are Torres, Arbeloa and Agger with Agger having the least chance of playing. Yossi rumors sound bogus to me as I can't find that anywhere. Riera is suspended for this match but otherwise, I think we've got enough to win the tie.

my guess:

Riena

Arbeloa Carra Skrtel Aurelio

Kuyt Alonso Masch Yossi

Gerrard

Torres

bench:

Hyppia, Insua, Ngog, Lucas, Babel, Cavalieri, Spearing

Yes, I just predicted the bench. Looks like El Zhar is not in the Champions League squad. Therefore, the squad rules for this competition are utter BS, in my opinion.

[Jimjim]

Nevermind, just saw in the Guardian that Yossi's out. <deleted>.

[StevieH]

that was on saturday jimjim, and it wasn't something i read it was in an email from a mate back home. yossi is defo out, done his hammy in training, big loss that is. torres and arbeloa to face late fitness tests, but i think we'll push them for this one rather than the mancs game. i don't think that insua is in the CL squad so:

reina

arbeloa carra skrtel aurelio

alonso mascherano

kuyt gerrard babel

torres

bench:

cavalieri, hyppia, ngog, lucas, spearing, dossena, agger(?)

our squad does still look bloody thin. madrid in the first leg were without huntelaar and van nistelrooy and still had attacking options like saviola, guti, van der vaart and sneijder in reserve.

Edited March 9, 2009 by StevieH

[StevieH]

quick trivia question as an aside, name the 7 players who have played for both liverpool and real madrid?

[Jimjim]

Guti's been injured. Not sure if he'll be fit. Babel does seem the only option without Riera and Yossi, right? Just our luck this season that just when one player is playing his best, he gets injured. Happened to Gerrard, as well.

[Jimjim]

I can think of Michael Owen and Steve McMananam.

Also, Fernando Morientes and Anelka, although I cheated halfway on both of them. Happened to see by chance that they played for Madrid, and of course knew they played for Liverpool.

Just thought of Alvaro Arbeloa, and didn't cheat on that one. He only had a couple of appearances for them, I believe.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Jimjim