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[ThaiVisaExpress]

UKBA have announced that appeals for family visit visa refusals will end soon ( probably in June). This is very bad news. This is the official announcement :

Change to family visitor appeals

26 April 2013

The Home Office is removing the full right of appeal for applicants refused leave to enter the UK as a family visitor.

On 25 April 2013 Royal Assent was given to a clause in the Crime and Courts Bill, published on 10 May 2012, which will allow the change to be pushed through.

The change is expected to come into force on or soon after 25 June. The new appeal arrangements will apply to anybody who applies to enter the UK to visit a family member on or after the implementation date.

By removing the right of appeal, we are bringing the family visitor visa in line with all other visitor visa categories. Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

We will update our guidance, forms and website information to reflect these changes in time for implementation.

[theoldgit]

Thus removing the need to make correct and justifiable decisions in the first instance.

Better make sure we beat the deadline then.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[ThaiVisaExpress]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

[Secondmouse]

doesn't look like too many are touching this one......

Edited May 8, 2013 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[somtampet]

This new law makes it even more important to get the facts 100% correct on paperwork,or get a company to do it for u,then if refused its genuine rather than incorrect paperwork filled in

Edited May 8, 2013 by metisdead
Underscore removed.

[theoldgit]

Off topic posts removed, this thread is about the loss of appeal rights for people wishing to visit family in the UK, it is not about settlement.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[GeorgeO]

I, for one, fully understand the reason for this change. The UK has been inundated by "family visitors" who have somehow become permanent residents.

Any attempts to get these "illegal immigrants" to leave have been blocked by "loopholes" resulting in hundreds of thousands of immigrants entering the country by alternative means that those already in place. Many of these attempts have come up against the intransigence of the ECHR, who incidentally, are now trying to remove any rights that the UK has to reject applications for residence from "welfare" immigrants.

If we do not place some sort of restrictions on the influx, then all of us who continue to pay taxes in our home country will see them being frittered away by the welfare state providing support for these "extended families".

This is not a racist comment, but simply a realistic one. For example, I remain in Thailand because I maintain my legal status, not because I managed to circumvent the rules.

Edited April 28, 2013 by GeorgeO

[Jay Sata]

I, for one, fully understand the reason for this change. The UK has been inundated by "family visitors" who have somehow become permanent residents.

Any attempts to get these "illegal immigrants" to leave have been blocked by "loopholes" resulting in hundreds of thousands of immigrants entering the country by alternative means that those already in place. Many of these attempts have come up against the intransigence of the ECHR, who incidentally, are now trying to remove any rights that the UK has to reject applications for residence from "welfare" immigrants.

If we do not place some sort of restrictions on the influx, then all of us who continue to pay taxes in our home country will see them being frittered away by the welfare state providing support for these "extended families".

Agreed.

This statement sums up the sensibility of the ending of the old procedure.

By removing the right of appeal, we are bringing the family visitor visa in line with all other visitor visa categories. Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Civil servants have to process thousands of these appeals every year and that costs money.

If the paperwork is correct and the applicant is a genuine visitor there should be no problem with obtaining a family visit visa.

Thai Visa can you explain why you think this is "very bad news"?

Edited April 28, 2013 by Jay Sata

[theoldgit]

Well I think it's bad news, as you point out a number of refusals are overturned on appeal with no further evidence being submitted, this leads me to believe that the original decisions were flawed.

The cost of the appeal is met by the appellant.

Encouraging those who have been refused a visa to reapply does nothing to address the "issue" of those family visitors who overstay.

Of course applicants should submit a robust application, unfortunately some of those who still have the applications refused, and now can do nothing to rectify it.

As I mentioned earlier the refusal of the right of appeal does little to encourage the ECO to make the correct decision in the first instance.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Jay Sata]

Well I think it's bad news, as you point out a number of refusals are overturned on appeal with no further evidence being submitted, this leads me to believe that the original decisions were flawed.

The cost of the appeal is met by the appellant.

Encouraging those who have been refused a visa to reapply does nothing to address the "issue" of those family visitors who overstay.

Of course applicants should submit a robust application, unfortunately some of those who still have the applications refused, and now can do nothing to rectify it.

As I mentioned earlier the refusal of the right of appeal does little to encourage the ECO to make the correct decision in the first instance.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

But surely if the visa is refused they can do the sensible thing and reapply via one of the expert visa agencies here and elsewhere? As the UKBA point out appeals take an average of 8 months.

It worth remembering that most appeals come from the Indian subcontinent.

Phil Douglas, the UKBA director of appeals and removals says the move is a "crucial part of plans to reduce the number of appeals and resultant cost to the taxpayer". He says family visit visas are the only visit visa decisions taken by entry clearance officers abroad that still attract a full right of appeal.

Abolishing the right of appeal could save the UKBA between £8m and £12m a year, and the justice ministry up to £24m in the cost of immigration judges and tribunals.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Jay Sata

[theoldgit]

But you're missing my point, some applications are incorrectly refused, and there will be nothing the applicant can do to seek redress.

Of course if an application has been correctly refused then I agree that the services of a trustworthy agent could prove invaluable, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

I agree that the biggest problem is the Indian Sub Continent, a friend of mine is an ECM over there, but even there applicants have a right to expect the correct decision to made on the evidence submitted, and should have the right of appeal.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Jay Sata]

But you're missing my point, some applications are incorrectly refused, and there will be nothing the applicant can do to seek redress.

Of course if an application has been correctly refused then I agree that the services of a trustworthy agent could prove invaluable, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

I agree that the biggest problem is the Indian Sub Continent, a friend of mine is an ECM over there, but even there applicants have a right to expect the correct decision to made on the evidence submitted, and should have the right of appeal.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

You say there is nothing an applicant can do to seek redress if they are refused but they have the quicker and easier option of re-applying.

An appeal takes a lot more paperwork and evidence than a correct and bona fide application. Visa agents exist to rectify problems with

incorrect and sub standard applications.

The policy paper concedes the appeal success rate (36%) "might be perceived as high" but claims a large proportion of appeals are allowed because they involve the submission of further evidence. Officials argue that, in these cases, relatives should have to pay for a new visa application rather than make an appeal.

[7by7]

Comments about family visitors overstaying, applicants not submitting the correct paperwork and using an agent next time are completely missing the point.

As are comments about so called 'welfare immigrants.' If someone has overstayed their visa and so is in the UK illegally, how are they going to be able to try and claim benefits? They're not.

Most successful appeals, I'm told, are granted without any extra evidence (note that they don't say in what percentage of successful appeals any extra evidence is provided) and without the UKBA even bothering to turn up!

Why?

Because the ECO got it wrong!

Even ECOs are human and so make mistakes; but the number of mistakes they make is way too high. That should be addressed before any consideration of removing the right of appeal.

I see this as the start of a slippery slope. I don't think it will be very long before the right of appeal is removed from settlement applications; both those made outside the UK and in.

Jay Sata, your confidence in visa agents is, in my opinion, somewhat naive.

Unfortunately, those outside the UK are not all as professional and competent as Paul and Tony at Thai Visa Express.

Worse still, some lie to and con their victims clients; and in Thailand the worst of these are run by Brits!

Even some of those inside the UK and registered with the OISC, and therefore supposedly regulated, are not as professional as one would wish.

Edited April 28, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

Comments about family visitors overstaying, applicants not submitting the correct paperwork and using an agent next time are completely missing the point.

Most successful appeals, I'm told, are granted without any extra evidence (note that they don't say in what percentage of successful appeals any extra evidence is provided) and without the UKBA even bothering to turn up!

Why?

Because the ECO got it wrong!

Even ECOs are human and so make mistakes; but the number of mistakes they make is way too high. That should be addressed before any consideration of removing the right of appeal.

Entry Clearance Officers are doing the job day in day out and I'm sure they have the skills to make correct decisions in 99% of case or they would not be in employment for long.

I doubt they reject applications just for the hell of it.

I'm not defending visa agents just saying that they can help people who have made simple mistakes that alert the ECO.

Reading a few recent rejection threads I'm amazed at how many naive visitors ask for the full six months in their first application. If I was an ECO I'd wan't to know how a genuine visitor can afford to abandon jobs and family for a six month visit to another country.

It appears most appeals succeed because more or correct information is supplied. A second application following failure of the first is no different to an appeal but cheaper and quicker for both the UKBA and the applicant.

[7by7]

I don't think anyone thinks that ECOs reject applications just for the hell of it; I certainly don't.

But the fact that the governments own figures show that 36% of family visit appeals are successful shows that something is wrong somewhere!

It is also significant that although the policy paper claims that a large proportion of appeals are allowed because of the submission of further evidence, it doesn't say how large this proportion is!

I have read about and heard of many successful appeals, admittedly not all family visit ones, where no extra evidence has been submitted by the appellant and the UKBA hasn't even bothered turning up!

Not a very scientific sample, I'll concede; but as scientific as the government's claims of the number of appeals where extra evidence is submitted!

Civil servants being sacked for incompetence? Have you ever worked in the civil service? I have, you don't get sacked, you get moved elsewhere!

I believe that if an application is rejected then the applicant should have the choice of whether or not to appeal. Of course, not all of those refused will, or have in the past, chosen to appeal; many have re-applied. But they should have the option.

To make it fair regards cost to the taxpayer; if the appeal is rejected, then the appellant pays the full costs, if it's granted due to extra evidence the costs are shared, but if it's granted without extra evidence the UKBA pays the full cost.

[Jay Sata]

Our argument is academic as the decision has been made.

25 April 2013 Royal Assent was given to a clause in the Crime and Courts Bill, published on 10 May 2012.

The Home Office said the abolition of the right to appeal against family visit visa refusals is expected to come into force on or soon after 25 June.

Family visits have always been a contentious issue. On the one hand having a family member in the UK is an advantage, since the visitor has somewhere to stay and financial support. But on the other hand, an ECO often assumes that if the applicant has family in the UK, and few ties in their own country they have no reason to return home. As I suggested in an earlier post most family visit visa refusals originate in the Indian subcon.

The reason a lot of appeals slipped through is the Border Agency fail to defend on a regular basis due to lack of staff.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Indeed, the decision has been made, and the arguments I am making now are the same as those I made when this was first mooted by the government.

That it is now coming into effect does not mean people cannot protest and present arguments as to why it is wrong.

The financial and lack of personnel arguments for abolishing this right are, in my opinion, very weak.

The government's own figures show that the fees for most visa and LTR applications are set well above the actual cost of processing those applications. They have been since the massive rise in fees introduced by Blair and the annual above inflation increases in fees since have meant the gap between cost and charge continues to increase.

Why can they not use some of that profit to employ more staff and better train the ones they have?

They call it a 'service' and refer to applicants as 'customers'; if a business treated it's customers the way the UKBA does it would soon go out of business!

I'm not having a go at the present government on this point. The present lot are merely carrying on what Blair and Brown started.

Edited April 28, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

Appeals were banned by the Tory government years ago but Jack Straw changed that during the last Labour government.

Things have now reverted to where they were decades ago.

At £80 an application I see nothing wrong in the current system. After all if you get rejected you can make another application straight away.

For the UK the advantage is no longer funding staff to process appeals. Cost cutting is going on in every corner of UK public services at the moment.

As I've said before if your case is genuine and backed by good paperwork you'll get the visa no problem.

[7by7]

At £80 an application I see nothing wrong in the current system. After all if you get rejected you can make another application straight away.

For the UK the advantage is no longer funding staff to process appeals. Cost cutting is going on in every corner of UK public services at the moment.

At £80 a time it is a nice little earner for the government as those wrongly refused now have no option other than to pay for a new application; unless they abandon the idea of visiting the UK all together and their UK based family visit them and spend their money in that country rather than the UK; that's going to help the UK economy!

As I've said before if your case is genuine and backed by good paperwork you'll get the visa no problem.

For the majority of applicants; true.

But 36% of family visit appeals are successful. Even though some of those are successful due to extra evidence (the government don't want to say how many; for the obvious reason?), that still leaves a substantial proportion who did provide all the necessary paperwork but still were wrongly refused.

That a previous government removed their right to appeal and then the following one reinstated it does not make it right to remove it again.

Edited April 28, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

At £80 a time I doubt they cover the cost of processing.

My understanding is that a lot of the visa appeals succeeded because the UKBA did not have the staff to oppose them.

That a previous government removed their right to appeal and then the following one reinstated it does not make it right to remove it again.

It was processed through Parliament correctly so they have every right to do it.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Jay Sata

[MAJIC]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above statement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

Edited April 28, 2013 by MAJIC

[AngryParent]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above staement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

Just further cra_p from the UKBA and the new UK that (IMHO) is anti-all-foreigners.

I have been trying to go back to the UK for a number of years now. I finally got up the steam to get a job in the UK (about a month back), then was told that I would probably not be able to get a family visit visa for the wife. I really cannot be seperated from the wife and UK citizen son for close to a year (6 months to have the job in the UK and then 4+ months for the visa process). And this visit visa was my last hope to plug a gap - I lost the hope.

Now I need to fully readjust my life and mind to think that I might be burried in Thailand (a country where I was not born and might have to stay in). My son has lost his UK future (education and other) as I am abandoned by the UK and forced into "exile".

If I was permitted to swear and curse on this forum I would probably have a million page post....

Stopping appeals is fully in line with the cold approach your beloved UKBA and govt. has adopted under the coalition.

My wife, son and myself had so much to contribute and give back to the UK (and I gave so much in the past in taxes too). Such a waste, such a depressing situation, such a depressing govt. "service" to its citizens!

Zie_ Hei___ Mei___ Camaron, May, et al... I hope you learnt a lot from Maggie... there will be no more public funerals for those that steal from the poor to pay for the rich.

Edited April 28, 2013 by AngryParent

[wooloomooloo]

I have been trying to go back to the UK for a number of years now. I finally got up the steam to get a job in the UK (about a month back), then was told that I would probably not be able to get a family visit visa for the wife.

Who told you that your wife would probably not be successful at a family visit visa?

There are other options. Your wife can apply for a settlement visa as you've already stated that you want out of LOS.

I'm slightly confused at your post, AngryParent. It doesn't make sense.

Edited April 28, 2013 by wooloomooloo

[Jay Sata]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above statement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

I think it was taken away because a lot of refused applications from the Indian subcontinent were using a loophole whereby if the UK Border Agency failed to attend to the appeal it was granted on default. The same happens in the UK if you sue a company for a faulty toaster or a negative insurance issue via the small claims court. The defendant never turns up and you get judgement in favour of the claim.

Every month I see judgements against Aviva (Norwich Union) which are discharged the following month.

To be fair I think most applications for family visits from genuine Thai's of a holiday nature are granted. I've been married to a Thai for fourteen years and never met anyone who has been refused. I know a few mother in laws who came for six months but did not last six week due to the cold. Elderly parents never have a visa issue. It's the young brothers/ cousins or extended family from India or Pakistan who get the most refusals. The holiday usually involves working in the family takeaway or restaurant in places like Leicester!

[ThaiVisaExpress]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above statement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

Well, for one thing, it's not even correct. How does it cost less ? The cost of a visit visa is 80 GBP. The cost of an appeal is 80 GBP. You would think that the UKBA would know that ?

[Jay Sata]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above statement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

Well, for one thing, it's not even correct. How does it cost less ? The cost of a visit visa is 80 GBP. The cost of an appeal is 80 GBP. You would think that the UKBA would know that ?

It costs the UK Border Agency less in manpower as they do not have to devote staff who can work elsewhere defending these appeals. The job is now done at the coal face by the Entry Clearance Officer. If you've ever watched the UK Border Force tv programme you will have witnessed some of the clever tricks applicants try in places like Nigeria and Mumbai. There is an Aussie version as well.

As I've said before I have been married to a Thai for 14 years and none of our wide circle of friends has ever had an application for a close relative visit to the UK refused.

This move is not aimed at Thailand but at places such as sub Sahara Africa and the Indian subcon.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Jay Sata

[somtampet]

And can you believe the "spin" they've put on it ? "We're doing you a favour by taking away your right of appeal as it stops you having to wait 8 months to see justice done " !

Applicants who are refused can re-apply addressing the reasons for refusal instead of appealing. This will be quicker and cost less than an appeal. In 2011-12 95% of applications were decided within 15 days, whereas the appeal system can take up to 8 months to deliver a result.

Hmm dosn't seem too bad,if the above statement can be believed? (that's not to say I agree with the appeal choice being taken away though)

Well, for one thing, it's not even correct. How does it cost less ? The cost of a visit visa is 80 GBP. The cost of an appeal is 80 GBP. You would think that the UKBA would know that ?

It costs the UK Border Agency less in manpower as they do not have to devote staff who can work elsewhere defending these appeals. The job is now done at the coal face by the Entry Clearance Officer. If you've ever watched the UK Border Force tv programme you will have witnessed some of the clever tricks applicants try in places like Nigeria and Mumbai. There is an Aussie version as well.

As I've said before I have been married to a Thai for 14 years and none of our wide circle of friends has ever had an application for a close relative visit to the UK refused.

This move is not aimed at Thailand but at places such as sub Sahara Africa and the Indian subcon.

When some farang knows a thai girl for 14 days,then the problems start, i wonder why????/

[7by7]

I have been trying to go back to the UK for a number of years now. I finally got up the steam to get a job in the UK (about a month back), then was told that I would probably not be able to get a family visit visa for the wife.

Who told you that your wife would probably not be successful at a family visit visa?

There are other options. Your wife can apply for a settlement visa as you've already stated that you want out of LOS.

I'm slightly confused at your post, AngryParent. It doesn't make sense.

Angry Parent has been posting for some time about his 'difficulties, going well back before the rule changes last July.

He has been given much advice, over a lengthy period and from what he said at the time had his wife applied before last July she would probably have been successful, as he was advised at the time.

I think that his saying "I have been trying to go back to the UK for a number of years now. I finally got up the steam to get a job in the UK (about a month back)" tells us all we need to know about the effort he has, or rather hasn't, put into this!

The prospect of his wife obtaining a family visitor visa while he spends 6 months working in the UK to meet the financial requirement has also previously been discussed at length. Whilst I admit to being dubious about this at first, the experience of other members who have successfully done so has proven me wrong.

I suspect that there is much AP is not telling us about his situation.

But this is not the place for discussion about anyone's specific situation.

[7by7]

At £80 a time I doubt they cover the cost of processing.

My understanding is that a lot of the visa appeals succeeded because the UKBA did not have the staff to oppose them.

That a previous government removed their right to appeal and then the following one reinstated it does not make it right to remove it again.

It was processed through Parliament correctly so they have every right to do it.

You are correct, visit applications do not make a profit for the UKBA.

But I still believe my point is valid due to the massive profits made on other categories and that appeals are now charged for anyway. The UKBA should use this money to ensure they have the right number of properly trained staff. But the government wont let them; it takes the profit into the general exchequer.

Parliament has the right to do what it pleases, subject to the rule of law and challenges in the courts.

That doesn't make everything it does right, though.

TVE will know more about this than I, but I suspect most family visit appeals are made not so much to get the visa (as you rightly say reapplying would be quicker; assuming they don't get erroneously refused again). I suspect that most are made in order that justice be done.

[Waterloo]

I don't think anyone thinks that ECOs reject applications just for the hell of it; I certainly don't.

But the fact that the governments own figures show that 36% of family visit appeals are successful shows that something is wrong somewhere!

It is also significant that although the policy paper claims that a large proportion of appeals are allowed because of the submission of further evidence, it doesn't say how large this proportion is!

I have read about and heard of many successful appeals, admittedly not all family visit ones, where no extra evidence has been submitted by the appellant and the UKBA hasn't even bothered turning up!

Not a very scientific sample, I'll concede; but as scientific as the government's claims of the number of appeals where extra evidence is submitted!

Civil servants being sacked for incompetence? Have you ever worked in the civil service? I have, you don't get sacked, you get moved elsewhere!

I believe that if an application is rejected then the applicant should have the choice of whether or not to appeal. Of course, not all of those refused will, or have in the past, chosen to appeal; many have re-applied. But they should have the option.

To make it fair regards cost to the taxpayer; if the appeal is rejected, then the appellant pays the full costs, if it's granted due to extra evidence the costs are shared, but if it's granted without extra evidence the UKBA pays the full cost.

What ever the figures for refusals & appeals are, I would suggest that they are an under representation, most people simply don't have the luxury of time to appeal & reapply through necesscity.

Having watched the recent dispatches programme on clearing the backlog at the UKBA, I think some peoples faith in the quality of all decisions is misplaced.

If the programme is to be believed the backlog is being cleared by an army of minimum wage temps, what training are they given?

There is simply something wrong with a system that cannot be held to account for it's mistakes & recinding the right to appeal will in my opinion only see an increase in poor decisions.