Aircon Gas Charges, Was I Charged Too Much?

[Cobrabiker]

I was charged for 20 baht per pressure pound, almost 80 pounds pump into 2 compressors, so was charged for 1500 baht, I think it is kind of ripped off, I thought it is supposed to be charged at per fill regardless of the amount, and not pressure pound. What is the market rate for gas filling? Mine was in Pattaya.

[Naam]

a completely empty 12,000btu/h unit costs usually 600 Baht.

[Sommaz]

It can vary according to distance pipe run but not a great amount.

Amount of refrigerant charge (kg) based on 5 meter runs can sometimes be found in the O&M manual.

[BrianCR]

Everything and anything is a rip off in Pattaya so I would be very surprised if you got a fair deal. Like you I have never heard of being charged "per pressure pound" but have (in the past) been given a "price per fill" usually around the 500 baht mark!

Edited April 28, 2013 by BrianCR

[Naam]

one has to differentiate between a service call to fill up or top a single unit and a service call to clean and top up half a dozen or more units. naturally the cost for the single unit is exponentially higher.

[lemoncake]

i once was also charged same price, because my regular guy was away. Naturally never used that company again.

To my regular guy, clean and gas refill 400 baht, just gas refill 50-150 per air con unit

[Cobrabiker]

Mine were just 2 old 8000 btu units, so definitely it was a ripped off. This small shop is on Siam country road towards Sukumvit, on the same side and before Kiss Restaurant or the Sauna, they put out a few aircon units just outside their shop, watch out!

I hate dishonest merchants or businessman, they made a quick gain but they have lost all future businesses and referrals, but too bad, they are just too many in Pattaya.

Thanks guys for your inputs.

[Cobrabiker]

i once was also charged same price, because my regular guy was away. Naturally never used that company again.

To my regular guy, clean and gas refill 400 baht, just gas refill 50-150 per air con unit

Is this guy in Pattaya? If so please post his contacts here, so all of us can give more business to an honest guy like him.

[lemoncake]

i once was also charged same price, because my regular guy was away. Naturally never used that company again.

To my regular guy, clean and gas refill 400 baht, just gas refill 50-150 per air con unit

Is this guy in Pattaya? If so please post his contacts here, so all of us can give more business to an honest guy like him.

He is already very very busy.

PM me if you want his number.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

To my regular guy, clean and gas refill 400 baht, ...

That's what the chap that did mine charged also, though luckily for me someone else paid the bill. The girl in the office downstairs who arranged for him to come said that 400B was normal.

[mervyn]

I used to use the same shop but stopped after I was charged 4 times the price for some multicore cable after a rat had got into one of my airconditioners.One of my neighbours was also overcharged the same ammount for a spare part for a toilet and will also not be going back there again !!!

[kiniyow]

I have always payed 300 Baht to top up my air con system..If Oil is added a little more....Look for Leaks and have then repaired..

[farang62]

Gas (freon) is sold by the Kg. the technician has to have his jug (he had to buy the jug) filled at a Freon supplier, there are many kinds of Freon R-11, R12, R22, R134, R502 the list goes on and on depending on the system and it's use.

Most Home A/C systems use R-22 it cost about 450 to 500 (depending on the accuracy of the vegetable scale) baht a KG and requires a lot of time and patience to transfer to the technicians tank, it requires Ice waste cooling the tank to get the Freon in.

Basically it is a pain, not many suppliers, time consuming. I advise my technicians to charge 700 baht a Kg, and again if they need to put a lot of freon in the system it takes a long time as the freon boils in the tank and the tank cools down and there is no pressure so they need to put hot water on the tank to raise the pressure.

The cost of Freon is going up and has increased by 60% in the last 18 months.

So give the guy a break it is a bitch to just get the Freon into his tank. Also the bigger the system the more freon required, if the unit is a long way from inside unit more than 6 meters the tubing should be the next size bigger, this adds approximately .5 Kg (500 grams) of freon per meter of tubing.

I think it depends on how much BS and complaining influences how much he charges. You are paying a for a service which the technician has (hopefully) knowledge, his transportation, his fuel, specialty tools, and Freon. It all cost money which he has spent for these items. Be prudent ask about how much for the job, but the freon will always extra.

Or as I have told some go out and buy your own tools, shreader valves, vacuum pump, Freon tank, freon, amp meter, again the list goes on and on.

If you are cool when he leaves PAY THE MAN!

[Cobrabiker]

Gas (freon) is sold by the Kg. the technician has to have his jug (he had to buy the jug) filled at a Freon supplier, there are many kinds of Freon R-11, R12, R22, R134, R502 the list goes on and on depending on the system and it's use.

Most Home A/C systems use R-22 it cost about 450 to 500 (depending on the accuracy of the vegetable scale) baht a KG and requires a lot of time and patience to transfer to the technicians tank, it requires Ice waste cooling the tank to get the Freon in.

Basically it is a pain, not many suppliers, time consuming. I advise my technicians to charge 700 baht a Kg, and again if they need to put a lot of freon in the system it takes a long time as the freon boils in the tank and the tank cools down and there is no pressure so they need to put hot water on the tank to raise the pressure.

The cost of Freon is going up and has increased by 60% in the last 18 months.

So give the guy a break it is a bitch to just get the Freon into his tank. Also the bigger the system the more freon required, if the unit is a long way from inside unit more than 6 meters the tubing should be the next size bigger, this adds approximately .5 Kg (500 grams) of freon per meter of tubing.

I think it depends on how much BS and complaining influences how much he charges. You are paying a for a service which the technician has (hopefully) knowledge, his transportation, his fuel, specialty tools, and Freon. It all cost money which he has spent for these items. Be prudent ask about how much for the job, but the freon will always extra.

Or as I have told some go out and buy your own tools, shreader valves, vacuum pump, Freon tank, freon, amp meter, again the list goes on and on.

If you are cool when he leaves PAY THE MAN!

Thanks for the detailed info, btw how many kg is required to fill a 30% full 8000btu compressor?

So give the guy a break it is a bitch to just get the Freon into his tank.

This guy came in and filled 2 compressors, was in and out in 20 minutes, no cleaning at all. Those listed here that charges way lesser went through the same bitch to get their freon into their tanks, furthermore, it is less than 5 mins drive to my house, this is purely a get rich quick mentally trying to squeeze more out from foreigners to pay for his mia noi expenses, this kind of practice should be condemned and not encouraged, should be black listed, should be on FBI most wanted list...... Oops, did I go to far?

[Pib]

20 pounds for 2 compressors...must be a couple of BIG A/C's. The system charge label on a couple of York split air A/Cs 18K BTUs in size I have both say 4.62 lbs is the R-22 charge level, which would be well under 10 lbs total for these two A/C's if having to completely recharge them....and I expect you were only topping off a low charge.

[Thighlander]

If you didn't fix the leak, then you did get cheated. Adding refrigerant is not normal.

[Pib]

20 pounds for 2 compressors...must be a couple of BIG A/C's. The system charge label on a couple of York split air A/Cs 18K BTUs in size I have both say 4.62 lbs is the R-22 charge level, which would be well under 10 lbs total for these two A/C's if having to completely recharge them....and I expect you were only topping off a low charge.

Correction to my post above, I just noticed the OP said almost 80 lbs for 2 compressors instead of 20 lbs....those two A/Cs must be large enough to cool a 10 story building. I think there may have been a miscommunications as to just how many pounds were charged/added. Then it just boils down to was the service call total charge (i.e., parts, Freon, and/or labor) worth it.

Here in Bangkok it usually costs around B1,000 just to have a reputable A/C service man "show up." I expect you could get Somchai of the FlyByNight Company to do the job cheaper. Just a few days ago one of my 5 year old 18K BTU York split air's was not cooling properly...we made an appt for Johnson Controls/York to come out, we were told up-front when making the appt the minimum service charge will be B1,000, they showed-up and determined my compressor (condenser) coils/fins were just too dirty (and they were), they cleaned it with a pressure washer (they had to climb up to the compressor unit using a ladder as its mounted half way up the house wall), they were at the house for about 45 minutes and didn't have to do anything else other than clean the compressor unit which included some disassembly. They didn't need to any add Freon as they checked the Freon pressure level/psi and it was good. Final charge B1,000...and the A/C is cooling great again.

[Pib]

Thanks for the detailed info, btw how many kg is required to fill a 30% full 8000btu compressor?

I also have a 8K BTU split air unit...I just went and looked at the specs label on it and it says the system charge is 1.91 lbs. So if my system charge is typical for other 8K BTU split air units, 30% of 1.91 lbs is 0.573 lbs (basically a half pound).

[gmac]

Gas (freon) is sold by the Kg. the technician has to have his jug (he had to buy the jug) filled at a Freon supplier, there are many kinds of Freon R-11, R12, R22, R134, R502 the list goes on and on depending on the system and it's use.

Most Home A/C systems use R-22 it cost about 450 to 500 (depending on the accuracy of the vegetable scale) baht a KG and requires a lot of time and patience to transfer to the technicians tank, it requires Ice waste cooling the tank to get the Freon in.

Basically it is a pain, not many suppliers, time consuming. I advise my technicians to charge 700 baht a Kg, and again if they need to put a lot of freon in the system it takes a long time as the freon boils in the tank and the tank cools down and there is no pressure so they need to put hot water on the tank to raise the pressure.

The cost of Freon is going up and has increased by 60% in the last 18 months.

So give the guy a break it is a bitch to just get the Freon into his tank. Also the bigger the system the more freon required, if the unit is a long way from inside unit more than 6 meters the tubing should be the next size bigger, this adds approximately .5 Kg (500 grams) of freon per meter of tubing.

I think it depends on how much BS and complaining influences how much he charges. You are paying a for a service which the technician has (hopefully) knowledge, his transportation, his fuel, specialty tools, and Freon. It all cost money which he has spent for these items. Be prudent ask about how much for the job, but the freon will always extra.

Or as I have told some go out and buy your own tools, shreader valves, vacuum pump, Freon tank, freon, amp meter, again the list goes on and on.

If you are cool when he leaves PAY THE MAN!

As I understand aircon systems they should be sealed and therefore in theory never need topping up. The problem to my mind is that it is a lucrative business repeat selling freon rather than doing a proper job of finding and repairing the leaks which make the regular top-ups necessary.

Edited April 29, 2013 by gmac

[Deke]

As I understand aircon systems they should be sealed and therefore in theory never need topping up. The problem to my mind is that it is a lucrative business repeat selling freon rather than doing a proper job of finding and repairing the leaks which make the regular top-ups necessary.

Exactly (Although it's not actually freon anymore).

[Thighlander]

There are even laws regarding just that in the US. Second time in one year could be a criminal offense (re-filling).

[Cobrabiker]

HI Pib, it was 80 psi,(pressure pound, like tyre pressure), to be exact, one was very low at 25 psi, so he topped up 50psi to 75, and the other was about 50 psi, top up about 25 psi to 75psi, so total about 80 so called "pounds" is actually psi, not mass weight, both are 8000 btu.

Great, thanks for finding the answer, so it's 1.91 lbs, I guessed the most he used 1.5kg of gas for my 2 compressors, and I was told a 5kg tank of gas cost a few hundred baht only.

Well this sucker did not check the problem of the leak, just top it up and said no problem, hoping to get return business again.

As I understand aircon systems they should be sealed and therefore in
theory never need topping up. The problem to my mind is that it is a
lucrative business repeat selling freon rather than doing a proper job
of finding and repairing the leaks which make the regular top-ups
necessary.

Well, I have never have an aircon that does not require a top up, whether car or house, I thought it was just natural, is it true a properly installed unit does not require a top up?

[Thighlander]

http://www.rsandrews.com/knowledge_base/content/Freon%20White%20Paper.pdf

[Cobrabiker]

http://www.rsandrews.com/knowledge_base/content/Freon%20White%20Paper.pdf

Thanks, I think you have cleared up the misconception in many people's mind that it is just normal to top up every now and then.

[Pib]

Cobrabiker,

Oh, you were talking pounds per square inch (PSI) pressure level...my bad....sorry. The PSI pressure level he topped them up to is in the correct ballpark for the low pressure side. Pressure level for each brand/model/BTU size will vary a little. When my York 18K BTU split air system was recently fixed (not cooling very well...much higher power draw that normal according to my clamp-on ammeter...it needed condenser coils/fins cleaning) when the tech checked the Freon low side PSI level it was 65psi which told him the Freon level was OK....he then went on to clean the condenser coils/fins with a pressure washer which fixed the cooling problem and high current draw. How can the compressor unit/motor current draw be reduced by cleaning the coils/fins, well, how well the coils/fins can cool the Freon flowing throw the coils has an effect on Freon pressure which affects how hard the compressor has to work to compress the Freon. I immediately asked him what is the acceptable PSI limits for the low side...and he said about 60 to 75psi...as mentioned, each brand/model/BTU size will have slightly different lower and upper limits. And since each A/C system will contain a different amount of Freon (I'm talking volume not PSI) like a large A/C unit would require more Freon to effect an PSI change in comparison to a smaller unit....kinda like how much gas is needed to make a car gas gauge indicate half fuel in a big car with a big gas tank compared to a little car with a little gas tank.

Regarding leaking, don't try to compare a vehicle A/C system with a residence A/C system Yes, they still operate on the same A/C basic principle but a vehicle A/C is more susceptible to developing leaks. Due to the different design of the compressor a residence A/C has a completely sealed compressor where a vehicle compressor is powered by a fan belt which hooks to the compressor pulley/clutch assembly which is connected to a shaft which runs "through a rubber/neopreme Freon seals" to turn the Freon compression pistons/vanes in a vehicle compressor. Many leaks occur at the shaft rubber seal that wears out over the years with the shaft turning against the rubber seal when the A/C is turned on/compressor engaged.. Additionally, within a vehicle engine compartment it gets "hot" which causes seal degradation faster than the few rubber seals used in a residence A/C. Another common vehicle A/C leak point is the low and high pressure rubber hoses/seals/connectors leading from compressor due to the constant, slight vibration of the engine/compressor and degradation due to engine compartment high heat. Even a vehicle A/C evaporator unit mounted between the engine compartment and passenger area don't seem to be as rugged (coil pipe wall thickness is less) as a home A/C evaporator unit, and are more susceptible to pin-hole leaks caused by coil condensation corrosion.

Up to about five years ago I had a high quality vacuum pump to evacuate A/C systems, pressure gages, leak detector, and some other specialized A/C equipment because I maintained/repaired the A/C systems on my personal cars....I've always had used cars (never had a new one until I moved to Thailand) and the A/C systems would frequently develop problems and I just got tired of paying BIG DOLLARS to have my car A/Cs repaired or just recharged so I bought the $300 retail Robinair vacuum pump off Ebay for $50 (a great buy), pressure gauges from Walmart, leak detector off Ebay for about $30, and I bought the soda can sized R134A Freon cans at most any gas station/Wal-Mart type store in the U.S. Note: But a home residence A/C system usually uses Freon R-22 "here in Thailand."

Anyway, after around 5 years of fixing numerous A/C problems that developed on my vehicles A/Cs the biggest leak problems were the compressor shaft seal (s....l.....o.....w/small leaks that take weeks or maybe month before leaking down too much...then you top up and you may be good for weeks to months...depends on the size of the shaft leak), rubber hose connection joint leaks, rubber hose degradation leaks, and I had to replace the evaporator unit in my truck because a pin-hole size leak developed from corrosion. And I even replaced some Schrader valves (really just the internal little spring loaded rubber seal part) as they developed very small leaks or wouldn't seal 100% everytime you removed a pressure gauge connection....that is, when checking the pressure levels...and just screwing back on the plastic Schrader valve cover was not enough to contain the leak...with home A/C they usually come with metal Schrader valve covers which you can tighten down good if there is a small Schrader valve leak.

But a home A/C system is much, much, much less susceptible to leaks in comparison to a vehicle A/C system due to different compressor design, no rubber hoses carrying the Freon, operated in a less hostile environment (remember an engine compartment is hot with vibration), etc. While maybe not quite as leak-proof as a refrigerator A/C system (which hardly ever develops a leak) the basic design of a refrigerator and home residence A/C are very similar...of course the refrig design don't use a fan on the compressor unit. But don't get me wrong, home A/C systems develop leaks as connection joints may loosen or pin-hole leaks develop somewhere.

Another example from my life history...about 20 years ago I lived in a rent townhouse with central air...every 6 to 9 months the unit stop cooling and the A/C evaporator freeze up (caused by low Freon)...the landlord would send out a repairman to fix it...the repairman would always find a very low Freon charge, but couldn't find the small, small leak and he had a leak detector...I would watch him in trying to find the leak...after giving up on tyring to find the leak he would charge the system up and it was good-to-go for another 6-9 months...the landlord was pay to have it repaired/topped-up. The repairman told the landlord the leak can't be detected until it gets larger but "most likely" it was in the outside compressor unit somewhere because the repairman though he had detected a leak but couldn't be sure since it was so, so small...after about 3 repairs and paying the repairman the landlord finally figured out it would be cheaper to replace the outside compressor unit that to pay for a repair/recharge every 6-9 months...after the compressor unit was replaced the problem never came back to the few more years I lived in the townhouse.

If a person "must have the home A/C topped up every few months, every year, or few years "they have a small leak." I have 7 York split air systems in my house ranging from 8K to 22K BTUs and they are all a little over 5 years old...and none of them have ever had to have Freon added....even the smallest 8K BTU which only has the 1.91 lbs of Freon in it.

Cheers,

Pib

[Pib]

Gosh, talking about the A/C equipment servicing equipment I "use" to have I decided to go buy some of the basics. Just came back from the Amorn Store in the Lotus Mall where I bought an A/C gauge set with hoses for B600. And so I can check pressure levels on my SUV I also bought a set of R-134A adapters for B200. No plans to buy a vacuum pump as I won't get that deep into servicing my A/C's again....but at least I'll be able to check for correct Freon/pressure levels on my home and vehicle A/Cs. I'll sleep better tonight knowing my DIY equipment inventory has got a little larger.

[Cobrabiker]

Hi Pib, thanks for your info, anyway, it is a matter of time that the freon gas will leak since this time the leaking problem was not fixed, that unscrupulous aircon shop will never get my return business again, thanks all for your inputs.

[Ace of Pop]

Gosh, talking about the A/C equipment servicing equipment I "use" to have I decided to go buy some of the basics. Just came back from the Amorn Store in the Lotus Mall where I bought an A/C gauge set with hoses for B600. And so I can check pressure levels on my SUV I also bought a set of R-134A adapters for B200. No plans to buy a vacuum pump as I won't get that deep into servicing my A/C's again....but at least I'll be able to check for correct Freon/pressure levels on my home and vehicle A/Cs. I'll sleep better tonight knowing my DIY equipment inventory has got a little larger.

Phew, did you buy a Blood Pressure Meter as well.

[Pib]

Gosh, talking about the A/C equipment servicing equipment I "use" to have I decided to go buy some of the basics. Just came back from the Amorn Store in the Lotus Mall where I bought an A/C gauge set with hoses for B600. And so I can check pressure levels on my SUV I also bought a set of R-134A adapters for B200. No plans to buy a vacuum pump as I won't get that deep into servicing my A/C's again....but at least I'll be able to check for correct Freon/pressure levels on my home and vehicle A/Cs. I'll sleep better tonight knowing my DIY equipment inventory has got a little larger.

Phew, did you buy a Blood Pressure Meter as well.

No need, got one already....still working well. BP is definitely an important pressure to monitor.