Uk Settlement Visa Refused And Confused...

[DRRunglawan]

HI all,

newbee so I'll try and keep it swift

Just been refused SV for my wife for 2 reasons and would like to hear your views:

1. relationship is not genuine etc...

2. financial

to throw out 2, I supplied the following:

P60

12m payslips (30k + pa)

6m bank statements

letter from employer

ECO refused because no contract from Employer?

but I am not worried about this, I can clarify this point (Employed 15 year, same company)

however the first point of refusal is what is annoying. Here are the facts...

I met my wife online 2 years ago

we got engaged in her hometown a year later, married 6 months later, had 5xholidays together in that time in Thailand (about 12 weeks total) and applied SV 3 month after our registration.

ECO said our relationship is in question with the usual phrase on the refusal letter, however my quandary is I supplied the following evidence and am unclear what more I can show?

1. 18month (extracts) Skype/MSN conversations

2. 8x hotel receipts, some in my name, some both names, and one in my wife's

3. at least 10-20 pics of each of our holidays including engagement and registration (total 50-100)

4. four flight tickets (of both of us) for internal flights together

5. money transfers (some) during the 2 year period

ECO said

1.skype/MSn was not clear who is who

2. all hotels in my name

3.pics not show span of time

4.only 1 flight

5. no comment

From the above I'm sure some may be as confused as I am but the twist in the story is that we also applied for 2x VV during this time (while we were together in Thailand) and both refused due to her'commitment to Thailand'. I believe the ECO read this in the letter we wrote stating the fact this is so and instant refused as we had not 'satisfied the previous ECO decision'. However a SV is totally different from VV.

Any comments on what else I could have done would be welcome.

Ps i have appealed, included Employment Contract, x100 page more of Skype, +100 photos all with dates/description, the boarding passes (again) and Hotel bills (again)

cheers

DRR

[DRRunglawan]

Hope to hear from some of you guys and to put an answer to the inevitable questions...

we are both 35

no children

both work (I am Engineer, she works in Spa)

the question is, shall I instant apply for SV again or await the appeal....my only issue is the reasons of relationship.

Don't want to give another 43,000 if I made a mistake in the first time and dont rectify the situation...

thanks

DRR.

[sbk]

Moving to visas to other countries forum

[DRRunglawan]

Thanks sbk

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You should post the refusal notice here ( deleting personal details, names, etc) as I find your description of the reasons for refusal unclear. What exactly does ( under "ECO said" ) "5. No comment" mean ?

There is no requirement for a contract of employment to be submitted. That requirement was removed last year, so I don't see how the ECO can refuse on that point.

Saying that the application was refused on "financial" means nothing without us seeing what the refusal notice says.

You say the ECO used the "usual phrase" in the refusal letter. What is the "usual phrase" ?

You say you have appealed. Have you submitted the appeal form and paid the fee, or just written to the Embassy ?

[DRRunglawan]

Thanks for the reply, I will scan a copy of the refusal to show, but to answer your questions:-

5. no comment = ECO did not mention this fact

Financial

A. wage slips - wage slips covering Dec 11 - Dec 12 showing gross salary of xxxx per month (OK)

B. ...a letter from th employer(s) who issued the wage slips... Not Met - you submitted a letter from xxxx detailing your sponsors salary and salary increments for the past Year - no other Employment details

C. Personal Bank statements...NOT MET online bank statements covering 6 months, original bank statements covering further 6 months showing no salary credits

D. P60 - P60 submitted (OK)

E. signed letter of employment - none submitted

You have failed to provide the specified documents ... I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1(d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration rules (E-ECP.3.1)

However, my Bank statements of 12 month showed salary credits by bank transfer, all 12months wage slips were shown being credited to my bank ( the exact amount). I agree my letter from employer lacked details - my fault for this but I have worked for the same company for 15 years and earn way in excess of the requirement, my employment contract which I requested recently was dated 15 years ago and does not really match my current position.I have rectified this and have a current letter from Employer.

Relationship requirements

You stated you met your sponsor online in xxxx and in person on xxx and a further four occasions and keep in contact by skype, msn chat. In addition UKBA records show you applied previously in xxx and xxx to visit the same sponsor however these were refused as the ECO was not satisfied, amongst other matters, that you had evidenced your relationship with your sponsor and therefore satisfied your intentions in the UK. Given the above it is not unreasonable to expect you fully evidence your relationship within this application, however you have failed to do so.

Whilst you submitted a number of hotel receipts you shown no evidence you cohabited...

You submitted 1x flight ticket

Small number of photographs

MSN chat but these do not say who the parties are and limited content...

I therefore am not satisfied your relationship with your sponsor is genuine...and intend to live permanently in uk, I therefore refuse under paragraph EC-P 1.1 (d) of Appendix FM (E-ECP 2.6 &2.10)

I mentioned in my previous post what I submitted and list the additional documents I supplied to the first-tier tribunal form IAFT2 and paid the fee.

I would welcome your thoughts and do you think I have a good case for Appeal? Or should I submit a new application ensuring the above points are met (although i 'm sure this is the case already?)

thanks
DRR

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Your explanation is as confusing as your first post. With respect, if your application was submitted with a supporting letter written in similar vein, then I'm not surprised that the ECO was confused.

Firstly, you said that one of the reasons for refusal was that you hadn't supplied a contract of employment. I don't see where the ECO said that ? And I say again, there is no requirement for a contract of employment.

Second, did you make it clear in our supporting letter that the salary payments were shown in your bank statements ? For instance, did you highlight them ? Are they clearly shown ? If so, then how can the ECO say that there are no salary credits shown on the statements ? If it is already clear from the statements that they are salary payments ( shown as credit payments from your employer ) then you must highlight this in your appeal, stating that the ECO missed this evidence.

Third. The rules specify what financial evidence you must provide. If you didn't, then the ECO must refuse the application. He has no choice. That said, he could have contacted you and asked you to provide the extra documents. The fact that he didn't leads me to believe that he was satisfied that he had enough evidence to refuse on relationship grounds alone.

Fourth, did you make it clear that the hotel receipts show, variously, you, your wife, and the both of you ? If so, then the ECO has missed this too.

Fifth, I'm not sure why the ECO is not satisfied about the relationship. It's a weird kind of logic that says your girlfriend/wife can't have visit visas ( twice) because they think she will stay in UK, and then go on to refuse a visa because your wife now wants to settle in the UK with you as her husband. I would have thought that you have provided enough evidence of a relationship, especially with the two visit visa refusals, but without seeing exactly what you did provide, I really can't say. The ECO does say you only provided a small number of photos, so how many did you provide ? By the way, ECOs cannot use that as a reason for refusal as there is no legal requirement to provide any photos at all. That said, photos can go towards confirming a relationship, of course.

I think you stand a reasonable chance of winning an appeal. But, the Immigration Judge can say that as you didn't provide the required specified financial evidence, the ECO had no choice but to refuse the application as he has no discretion to do otherwise. You might have been better off writing to the Embassy, with the added evidence, plus evidence that the ECO missed important documentation that was submitted, and asking them to review the decision.

[Kevin1908]

I don't see how the lack of a contract trumps a P60 and wage slips and bank statements confirming receipt of wages.

Edited May 4, 2013 by theoldgit
Suggestion of creating evidence removed.

[hotwinter]

B. ...a letter from th employer(s) who issued the wage slips... Not

Met - you submitted a letter from xxxx detailing your sponsors salary

and salary increments for the past Year - no other Employment details

C. Personal Bank statements...NOT MET online bank statements covering 6 months, original bank statements covering further 6 months showing no salary credits

letter has to explain employment, like full time and salary etc. not sure what you put, i guess you could look over it yourself and see what you missed.

im pretty sure you have to show that wageslips and bank payments match up. if yours shows no 'salary credit' (wages) as they put it, going into the bank, then you havent satisfied that

[Kevin1908]

B. ...a letter from th employer(s) who issued the wage slips... Not

Met - you submitted a letter from xxxx detailing your sponsors salary

and salary increments for the past Year - no other Employment details

C. Personal Bank statements...NOT MET online bank statements covering 6 months, original bank statements covering further 6 months showing no salary credits

letter has to explain employment, like full time and salary etc. not sure what you put, i guess you could look over it yourself and see what you missed.

im pretty sure you have to show that wageslips and bank payments match up. if yours shows no 'salary credit' (wages) as they put it, going into the bank, then you havent satisfied that

Not sure why they would need a letter from the employer and a contract of employment but I guess it makes them happy. The letter is just a summary of the contract any way.

Of course salary does not necessarily have to be paid into a bank account although in most instances it is.

[DRRunglawan]

Thanks ThaiVisaExpress for your reply, I will try and respond to your comments

1. contract of employment - none submitted was on the ECO refusal - I apologize, it was point E contract not letter of employment as i posted previously

2. I did not highlight the salary payments, but my salary is paid as shown on my wage slips into my bank, I mean every month there is a large payment into my account that stands out, i did not think necessary to highlight this. However, I did address this point on my appeal.

3. Yes this is exactly what I believe. The relationship requirements is what I believe the ECO refused the application. I thought a p60, wage slip x12, bank statements x12m, letter from employer (but only showing salary increase and level for 12m) was sufficient to show I was in full time employment and I also stipulated the fact in my supporting letter declaring I have been employed 15 years at the same company... I have again noted these facts in the appeal and included a contract of employment

4. Yes. It clearly shows x5 hotels in my name, x2 in both, x1 in her name. Photographic evidence was provided (although I did not comment on each photo) and obviously my visa stamps match up with the dates. Again I spelt this out in the appeal form

5. as posted earlier this is what I provided:

1. 18month (extracts) Skype/MSN conversations

2. 8x hotel receipts, some in my name, some both names, and one in my wife's

3. at least 10-20 pics of each of our holidays including engagement and registration (total 50-100)

4. four flight tickets (of both of us) for internal flights together

5. money transfers (some) during the 2 year period

Lastly, as with many others I just must wait the ECM review (if one takes place) and then the tribunal hearing date. I hope all goes well, but if not I must apply again. I don't have an issue with the Financial requirements and if this is a reason of refusal then its my fault. The relationship requirements is what I was concerned about. I added another 50 + photos to the appeal AND included description/dates of each, also additional 100 pages of Skype/MSN, made them aware of 4 flights not 1 and hotel details.

I thought my application for my wife's visa was straight forward but I guess I was wrong...

thanks

DRR

[DRRunglawan]

Hi Kevin 1908,

i agree this is 'a joke'. I did supply wage slips, P60, bank statements and a letter but according to the ECO i only supplied 2/5 from the list. As TVE says there is no need for a contract of employment I thought I supplied the 4 things required. If the appeal is rejected on these grounds then I am annoyed with myself more than anything as I pass the financial requirements and I hope I have an opportunity to prove this at Tribunal..

PS I did actually get a contract of employment form my work to send to the appeal, just as quick as the download you suggested

[DRRunglawan]

Hi Hotwinter

thanks for your input.

I see your point about letter of employment - Yes what i originally supplied did not fully meet the requirements I believe, it was a signed letter from my employer stating my salary details but not the whole list. I have of course amended this by including one for the appeal.

My Bank statements clearly show my monthly income of XXXXX being paid into my account every month. I did not highlight this but it does stand out. I have also raised this point in my appeal letter.

I don't mind applying again with all the (financial) information correctly supplied but I am still wary of the 2x refused VV and why they refused on relationship requirements...

[DRRunglawan]

HI all,

ignoring the appeal (i know it can take 6-9m) my question is what do you need to fulfill the relationship requirements? I mean beyond the basics of online chat/holidays/engagement/marriage/pictures?

what other things can you show?

maybe joint account (if we can have next time in BKK) ?

regular payments?

hmmm, I would welcome any more suggestions to my list...

DRR

[wooloomooloo]

DRRunglawan. If you post the entire refusal letter as ThaiVisaExpress has suggested, less personal details, you will get a far more succinct response.

I've completed all my wife's applications, on her behalf of course, but you've crossed a bridge now. I'd recommend getting some heavy duty OISC registered representation. I'm not one for throwing good money after bad but if your wife's appeal fails where do you go from there? If you approached the appeal with representation and fail at least you know you tried.

[DRRunglawan]

I guess i will be in Thailand soon ... again !!!!

like i shown in my photos

ps. earlier post show the refusal letter

[wooloomooloo]

ps. earlier post show the refusal letter

Not really. Post it start to finish.

[DRRunglawan]

apologies if i said something to offend, but i will keep you informed of the appeal

just booking my BA flight for the summer

and of course, to spend 24/7 with the wife *Note to myself - include in next visa photos and more

I guess I reached the stage where I am so happy, nothing matters as much as DRR, one day she will be here, if not, i have many holidays to look forward to

Thanks everybody who replied

it may be Chang beer for me after all

[DRRunglawan]

Woloomooloo

i have given you the facts and figures direct from the refusal letter, what more is required? the ECo's initials?

right now, i explained my case to TV and had a few replies, I must take care of the next application better, but still in my mind the refusal of relationship....

thanks anyway

DRR

[7by7]

The contract of employment is a joke. Down load one from the internet, Put what ever you like in it, sign it and send it in. I don't see how the lack of a contract trumps a P60 and wage slips and bank statements confirming receipt of wages

Firstly, TVE has said twice prior to your post that a contract of employment is NOT required!

There is no requirement for a contract of employment to be submitted. That requirement was removed last year, so I don't see how the ECO can refuse on that point.

Firstly, you said that one of the reasons for refusal was that you hadn't supplied a contract of employment. I don't see where the ECO said that ? And I say again, there is no requirement for a contract of employment.

Perhaps you should read every preceding post before posting your own comments?

Secondly, you are advising the use of a false, forged document.

Very easy for the ECO to discover the document is false and this will result not only in this application being refused, but also the possibility of the applicant being banned for life from the UK in any capacity!

[DRRunglawan]

Hi 7by7

the application was done last Year, I know TVE said twice 'contract of employment' is not required but it is mentioned in the refusal. (see FR.png)

and I got the contract of employment from my work, and just said it was as easy as downloading from internet as suggested by K1908. I may have not made this clear, it is a genuine document submitted with my appeal.

Lastly I attach my refusal letter to clear up all questions.

thanks

DRR

[7by7]

In which case either your application was made and decided before the change or, more likely, they haven't updated their refusal forms.

Any document submitted with an application must be genuine, and a contract of employment needs to be signed by both the employer and the employee.

Edited May 4, 2013 by theoldgit
Quote from removed post deleted

[DRRunglawan]

i understand 7by7,

and as I sent my appeal forms off a good few weeks ago (with the genuine signed contract of employment) i would agree that k1908 advice was taken light heartily and i would never risk the chance of a 10 year ban for falsifying documents.

As it is no longer a requirement then i can mention this fact at the appeal. BTW anybody know when this was removed from the list? My application was done in Nov2012.

DRR

[bobrussell]

The relationship aspect of the refusal is clearly nonsensical. Assuming you are married and provided all the relevant certificates and translations you are not required to do more.

A refusal on relationship grounds would be based on the belief that a relationship was not genuine ie a sham marriage, and/or the two parties had not met.

Failed visit visas strongly support the presence of a genuine relationship and photos show you have met!

Very odd IMO for these issues to have even been raised in the refusal letter.

Edited May 4, 2013 by bobrussell

[DRRunglawan]

cheers Bob

You hit the point exactly of what i am confused about. I mean 2 years together (now 2.5 !!), 5 X holidays together, engagement, marriage photos, flights, hotels, chats etc...all documents + translations supplied... what more can I show that my wife and I are in ' a genuine and subsisting relationship' ???

Edited May 4, 2013 by DRRunglawan

[checkoutcomplete]

Sorry to intervene.

My letter from my employer only claimed that I started work in October and that I am still currently employed.

Included:

6 months wage slips

P60

Contract of employment (wether needed or not) which confirms address of work, job title, yearly income etc...

Also 6 months bank statements with the first amount shown is my wage paid in on the 29th of April.

We applied 30th of April.

[DRRunglawan]

Hi CoC

the way i read it is you said that only 1 salary paid into bank account (April 29) so does not conform to the requirements of bank statements & salary paid in (6 m). You also say you are employed since October - where were you wages paid too ? I don't argue the fact you are employed but I think you need to show how and where and how much you get paid, covering 6 months.

I showed 12 m (with salary credits every month) but yet ECO did not pick up this point, - Not met

I would presume this would be a 'Not Met' but if all else is in order then who knows.

wish you luck, I waited 75 working days for the news, and then it was bad

DRR

[checkoutcomplete]

Sorry.

The last page of my 6 month statements I provided. Was dated the 29th if April. With the first transaction and only of the day was showing my wage being paid into. That was my 6th month pay.

[DRRunglawan]

ok CoC,

just check my refusal letter and you can see what the ECO checks for. If all these points are met then there should be no problem on the Financial requirements.

DRR

[DRRunglawan]

minus the contract of employment