My Gripes

[sbk]

OK, since we have had so many different threads wind up hijacked by the complaints of a few, let me tell you my complaints.

I first came to Koh Phangan 17 years ago. The roads were dirt, the electric was on only at night, there was no hospital or bank. A few bungalows (maybe 20 -30 operations on the whole island). The only phone was a radio phone at the Post Office. Within a few years we had some major developments: full time electricity, telephone lines for a good part of the island, quite a few paved roads, a hospital (albeit not a very good one) and several banks. The car ferry started running. Why? Because the Full Moon party took off in a fairly big way, opening Koh Phangan up for some money from the mainland. Nobody complained about these things, electricity, telephones, paved roads and a hospital are all generally good things and a few thousand drunk kids every month is a small price to pay to get some mod cons.

Fast forward about 12 years, things coasted along, more bungalows being added, more paved roads but still nothing big until some clever farangs and non-local thais got the idea that Koh Phangan was the next big thing. In come the developers (farang at first, but the Thais have been quick to sniff out a good deal), then come the farangs with no local ties at all looking for a cheap piece of land. Had enough of Samui/Phuket/Pattaya and want something new. So, they bring in their money, and follow the builders; Isaan, Burmese, whatever, with no concept of local customs and rules. Then follow the bar girls (much to the locals horror) with their inappropriate clothing and poor manners.

We have gone from an island of 7,000 where everyone pretty much knew everyone else to an island overtaken by people with absolutely no connection to the local culture, no interest in it, and generally here to either make a quick baht or get away from someplace they have already ruined.

So, next time you start moaning about Samui and casting about for "the next big thing" think about what you did that helped contribute to the ruin of a beautiful island and think about how moving from one "paradise" to another may affect the place you go to.

Rant over.

[JuergenFFM]

basicly you are right!

in my personal view there should be some kind of control. somebody should say...stop..its enough.

we all love 24 hour electric and a working showers.

month ago there was a report about samui in german tv. singha owner mr. ??? said samui should become a high class holiday destination. i can not imagine how this should work in the current situation.

in my opinion samui is going to become a TUI destination. if they have plenty of guesthouses and hotel beds and each beach overbuild....after that they have to sell it for each price (cheap) and the high class tourist will quick change to low class drinkers :-). same in europe happended to some ski resorts.

open your mind for different ways of tourism. seychelles....limited number of beds and tourists. at the end of the day they earn the same money with less tourists.

in my opinion somebody should "cover" the development of samui. to keep it the place we love(d).

[opothai]

sbk

unfortunately this seems to be human nature

bleed it until it is dry

then do an autopsy [ and agree never to make the same mistake again and sgain and again ]

Edited March 21, 2006 by opothai

[Khun Jean]

Can not agree more. I allways have to laugh when i see a brochure talking about pristine beaches.

Thailand has no pristine beaches when tourist start to arrive.

It happens all over again in Ao Nang in Krabi. It changes quick into a copy of Pattaya.

Not sure, but it seems that when the bargirls arrive, the place changes into a dump.

If you look at Koh Tao, it comes closest to how it should be done in Thailand (from my limited visits). Fact is that foreigners (businesses) are keeping the place tidy, imported thais from other regions couldn't care less. Not too many bargirls too. Same for HuaHin. Again not too many bargirls. HuaHin is on the edge, if they keep some control it will work. Being near to a palace helps a lot i think.

It is the same all over the world. Wherever there is prostitution it changes into a bad area. It is not that the prostitutes themselves are awfull people, their visitors are often nice people too. But it will attract criminals and also the not so good customers who only are there to <deleted> as many girls as possible and completely have no recollection of it after because alcohol intake. Abusive scum i think they are with absolutely no respect for the place. Woman visitors can be like that too, check the Bambi thread. She is not alone.

I live in the Netherlands, and i lived in Amsterdam a long time. Where do you think the junkies, thieves, illegals, illegal casinos, drug sellers are concentrated... yep in the red light district.

Once in a while they are scattered around the city, some politician wants to make a good impression. But not long afterwards they all spiral back to the same place, and because it isn't taken care of this 'circle' gets bigger and bigger. Now a much bigger area has problems. Problems are not exclusive for Thailand.

It is time for Thailand to protect their natural beauty, if it wants to have a sustained level of tourism.

As it seems it will first have to go really really bad before they realise it. Hopefully if they get reminded every time it doesn't have to come that far. The west learned it the hard way, probably the Thias will go the same way.

Samui is not more than a very big coconut 'farm'. It has limited natural beauty and diversity.

What were once pristine beaches (its greatest asset) are now full with shabby bungalows and big resorts. I have never seen so many rundown resorts in one place. It has lost its 'pristine' status.

Sad thing, families who grew up here gave the beaches to their 'bad' children. It was considered useless. The other land (coconut farm land) went to the 'good' children.

If we find a nice pristine place, better not tell anyone, especially not on the internet. It will be "ruined" before you know it. Such a shame.

[suegha]

This thread really makes for depressing reading! It's true though, it's called progress! As the world gets smaller everywhere suffers - it's human nature writ large. Is there anything that can be done? Any positive suggestions?

[LaoPo]

This thread really makes for depressing reading! It's true though, it's called progress! As the world gets smaller everywhere suffers - it's human nature writ large. Is there anything that can be done?

Any positive suggestions?

Yes, I will start a new -positive- thread/topic here.

LaoPo

Edited March 21, 2006 by LaoPo

[mosquitoman]

OK, since we have had so many different threads wind up hijacked by the complaints of a few, let me tell you my complaints.

Then follow the bar girls (much to the locals horror) with their inappropriate clothing and poor manners.

Sadly its also the locals who rent the propertiers that allow these bar girls to ply there trade.

[Jim 50]

We have gone from an island of 7,000 where everyone pretty much knew everyone else to an island overtaken by people with absolutely no connection to the local culture, no interest in it, and generally here to either make a quick baht or get away from someplace they have already ruined.

So, next time you start moaning about Samui and casting about for "the next big thing" think about what you did that helped contribute to the ruin of a beautiful island and think about how moving from one "paradise" to another may affect the place you go to.

Rant over.

Basically nothing. Can't blame the foreigners for what the Thais do, or do not do, with their own island. Farangs have no vote, can't own land and basically no rights so it is really a Thai issue.

If Farangs owned land and voted the place may have had some zoning laws and not gotten spoiled. Anyplace that caters to transients will deteriorate over time.

[somchai jones]

Interesting topic.

Too simplistic to blame this purely on prostitution though, idyllic locations tend to get fuc*ed up.

The ghastly 'Hawaii syndrome' awaits. Very sad.

[sbk]

OK, since we have had so many different threads wind up hijacked by the complaints of a few, let me tell you my complaints.

Then follow the bar girls (much to the locals horror) with their inappropriate clothing and poor manners.

Sadly its also the locals who rent the propertiers that allow these bar girls to ply there trade.

The one that I know that rented their land out to one of these places was unaware it was going to be a girlie bar.

Basically nothing.

Well, mark, clearly you missed the entire point of my post. As did somchai jones. Since I neither blamed the prostitution, nor the farangs.

However, the idea that farangs that come to live here are entirely blameless is a load of <deleted> IMO. There are more ways to contribute to a local culture than by voting. And when a bunch of farangs come here and open land development offices and girlie bars they are certainly contributing in a negative way.

My point was the fact that so many of the people on this forum sit and moan about how Koh Samui has deteriorated but are unwilling to look at the fact that the gross commercialism and rapid overgrowth brought about by too many people looking for their slice of paradise has caused most of these problems. Certainly, locals shouldn't sell their land but since many of them enjoy having a nice lifestyle and money too, it is a bit hard to tell them no, you can't have it but I can, isn't it?

It seems to me that with each wave of successive farang invasion, things have changed, and not for the better. That the ones who are always looking for the "unspoiled paradise" are the first ones to bring in the spoilers.

[Jim 50]

The local Thai people have no concept long term interest, just quick financial gain. This is their culture. It is also perfectly acceptable to Thais to have a gogo bar next to a grade school for example.

No paradise can survive a background of low values and short term greed. Thailand lacks a value system and modern zoning laws to control this plight.

[zzap]

Start to get yourself informed, Jim.

The 'News' section of this forum would make a good start, a search engine such as google would be a great help to you as well.

[LaoPo]

It seems to me that with

1. each wave of successive farang invasion, things have changed, and not for the better.

2. That the ones who are always looking for the "unspoiled paradise" are the first ones to bring in the spoilers.

1. Interesting phrase.

2. Maybe you and me belong to that group also, so are we to be blamed?

I wonder what exactly caused the 'spoiling' of some places in Thailand in general. Is it just the tourists/expats (coming to live here) or can we also point our finger towards the local+country government of doing things completely wrong or doing little to nothing at all?

Some 40-50 years ago there were hardly any tourists or expats from northern Europe, living/coming the the southern European holiday countries like South of France, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

Since than, hundreds of thousands (! true fact) have bought houses in these countries and are still doing so. The same counts for upcoming countries (cheap now) like Turkey. I'm not even mentioning the millions and millions of holiday-tourists.

Why did they came? They came because they were making more money in the aftermath of WWII and because these countries were cheap had sunshine and nice beaches.

These countries promoted to come to 'their' sunshine and beaches very HEAVILY like Thailand/TAT is doing already now for many years also.

SO, what did go wrong?

Is it Thai culture* (and the 'tolerance' since hundreds of years of Mina Nois and prostitution) or was it also a lack of education/experience on the middle and toplevel, handling all these Farangs and their wishes?

I don't know, but what I do know is, that in the European countries there is no such thing like bargirls/prostitution on the enormous scale like in LOS + also dit not have the education/experience handling all these tourists. It took them decades to adapt and improve!

I assume there are many more reasons and not so easy to explain but if there were no tourists (and expats, willing to buy a nice house), Samui and Phangan would still be 'sleepy' islands.

I also, regret what is going on in some places in Thailand because I still have beautiful memories of an unspoiled Patong beach/Phuket or Chaweng/Samui, but to blame the tourists/expats for coming to Thailand is a thing which goes too far and is not fair.

Could anyone, like yourself and your family-in-law, survive and live the lifestyle as you are doing now without the tourists?

Interesting question.

*Yes, in my opinion it is Thai culture why so many people are attracted to Thailand because the Thai in general are sweet, kind, nice and 'tolerant' people next to the many beautifull places, wheather, beaches and (cheap) food in the country.

But....the Thai government still has a lot do do to 'educate' and 'structure' the country in general, like the countries in Southern Europe did so many years ago, and are still working to do so.

It takes a few decades though.

"L'Histoire se repete" for a new destination like Cambodia...

LaoPo

[soic]

I think that there's alway plenty that can be blamed for a situation like that... unfortunately not a single group of people or plan. It's usually "human nature" that is the root cause. Everyone wants the modern conveniences, whether they say it or not, everyone is looking for a new piece of paradise, everyone is looking for the next new investment. Even the island people that opened their arms and sold/leased their land had a need or a want. Modernization and Civilization creeps up on even the most isolated places.

A friend of mine and I were sitting on a balcony in Kumonovo, Macedonia once. We were watching the families walking up and down the street, going to and from the market. We were marveling at the closeness and intimacy you could see in those families. Children holding hands with their parents. Fathers and mothers walking side by side, daughters and mothers, fathers and sons all close together, talking, walking and holding hands. It was so beautiful to see. Then we noticed the market itself. Shanty shacks, awnings, cheap wares, many of which were just piled on the side walk. Mostly cheap chinese materials... My friend said, "you know wouldn't it be nice if these people could actually enjoy a lot of the western things?" I thought for a minute and said "Absolutely Not!" Why? Because of the Cost of modernization. When was the last time that anyone has seen a family go to the Mall together, holding hands or even just sitting and talking. Even in Thailand the youth are playing the Game boys, Playstations and computer games. There's little time for anyone anymore.

Our only real hope it to keep finding these out of the way places and hope that society forgets or stays ignorant of them as long as possible. I understand both concepts of it. The trouble is, even if we all know it, we all can't help but want the nicer things... even if we think we don't.

[suegha]

I think that there's alway plenty that can be blamed for a situation like that... unfortunately not a single group of people or plan. It's usually "human nature" that is the root cause. Everyone wants the modern conveniences, whether they say it or not, everyone is looking for a new piece of paradise, everyone is looking for the next new investment. Even the island people that opened their arms and sold/leased their land had a need or a want. Modernization and Civilization creeps up on even the most isolated places.

A friend of mine and I were sitting on a balcony in Kumonovo, Macedonia once. We were watching the families walking up and down the street, going to and from the market. We were marveling at the closeness and intimacy you could see in those families. Children holding hands with their parents. Fathers and mothers walking side by side, daughters and mothers, fathers and sons all close together, talking, walking and holding hands. It was so beautiful to see. Then we noticed the market itself. Shanty shacks, awnings, cheap wares, many of which were just piled on the side walk. Mostly cheap chinese materials... My friend said, "you know wouldn't it be nice if these people could actually enjoy a lot of the western things?" I thought for a minute and said "Absolutely Not!" Why? Because of the Cost of modernization. When was the last time that anyone has seen a family go to the Mall together, holding hands or even just sitting and talking. Even in Thailand the youth are playing the Game boys, Playstations and computer games. There's little time for anyone anymore.

Our only real hope it to keep finding these out of the way places and hope that society forgets or stays ignorant of them as long as possible. I understand both concepts of it. The trouble is, even if we all know it, we all can't help but want the nicer things... even if we think we don't.

Good post. What 'cost' modernisation?

[somchai jones]

Well, mark, clearly you missed the entire point of my post. As did somchai jones. Since I neither blamed the prostitution, nor the farangs.

No, I fully understood your point. When I said it was a little simplistic to blame the woes purely on prostitution, I was in fact replying to another poster.

[sbk]

Sorry somchai!

Soic, you are clearer than me, I guess. I was trying to point out that we are all to blame, not just the Thais who want the mod cons, not just the farangs who want the piece of paradise. All of us. And instead of moaning about "Well, Koh Samui is trashed, time to move on" that perhaps it is better for a little introspection into the forces that trashed Samui, and to be honest.

Yes, it is all of us, me included. But I did not come to Koh Phangan looking for a place to live, it is my husbands home and it was his wish to live here. Given a choice I probably would have preferred to stay in the US as I am quite close with my family too.

What I object to are the people who come looking for a place to use, use it up and then move on to the next place to use up. This can be both farang and Thai, people who have no interest in the place except what they can get out of it.

[soic]

I can understand your point. It's turned from a beautiful jungle setting into a concrete resort. The best we can hope for is that they at least make the resorts fit into the scenery. It's kind of like that song "They paved paradise and put in a parking lot". At least these builders are constructing something that is useful and maybe beautiful in it's own way. One man's junkyard is another man's paradise. Every mondern convenience has a price tag... and it's not just $19.95, it brings a lot of baggage with it. It's impossible to bring only the technology we want to our little piece of the world. Every new item begats another. The latest accessory or companion device.

I'll never forget the first Christmas my first wife and I had... we were so young and so poor just starting out. I saved all summer because I wanted to buy her the most beautiful thing I could find. I went from store to store to store. I finally found the most beautiful dress I had ever seen... It was so expensive, I mean out ragiously expensive, it was going take everything I had saved and more. I knew that she would be stunning and feel so pretty wearing that. I bought it... I was so proud. Then on Christmas day she opened it, you should have seen the look on her face. She loved it so.... then she told me that we would have to go out and get her a new purse, some new shoes, and a nice necklace to go with it. She thought I was crying because she was so happy with the dress... I know stupid story but it illustrates my point a little... You can't expect to just buy or have one piece of anything...

[girlx]

where everyone pretty much knew everyone else to an island overtaken by people with absolutely no connection to the local culture, no interest in it, and generally here to either make a quick baht or get away from someplace they have already ruined.

where i live in koh phangan is certainly more developed than sbk started out with but not nearly as developed as the rest of the island yet because of the 40 minute pitted road through the jungle to get here. the land around here is gorgeous and there are a couple of big controlling families and a few long term foreigners who've owned the bulk of it for the past decade or two. but now those locals are realizing they can cash in on and develop the beaches and cut out the village life by not paying their (a lot of times burmese) staff any money and forcing them to subsist in dorm-like hovels working 13 hours a day and dreaming of white skinned farangs. there are many foreigners who think it is fun to work in a bar or restaurant here on their holiday (which it is) who are unwittingly taking jobs from more of the thai locals, and screw with their heads while they are here. and wealthy foreigners who are only thinking about business, rather than foreigners who love and respect the place are starting to take advantage of them all by slapping down money. a certain properties agent is snatching up a lot of good land to make it expensive. people are buying half rais of family land at alarming rates. so the locals who were well off before but should have held on to it are suddenly finding themselves priced out of their own market, and they leave. the honest foreigners with modest money go with them, and the rich bastards are left. add that to the fact that there is no police presence or justice system in place here (it's neighborhood honor), this place is going to go crazy.

but for now it is beautiful and excellent.

[LaoPo]

where everyone pretty much knew everyone else to an island overtaken by people with absolutely no connection to the local culture, no interest in it, and generally here to either make a quick baht or get away from someplace they have already ruined.

where i live in koh phangan is certainly more developed than sbk started out with but not nearly as developed as the rest of the island yet because of the 40 minute pitted road through the jungle to get here. the land around here is gorgeous and there are a couple of big controlling families and a few long term foreigners who've owned the bulk of it for the past decade or two. but now those locals are realizing they can cash in on and develop the beaches and cut out the village life by not paying their (a lot of times burmese) staff any money and forcing them to subsist in dorm-like hovels working 13 hours a day and dreaming of white skinned farangs. there are many foreigners who think it is fun to work in a bar or restaurant here on their holiday (which it is) who are unwittingly taking jobs from more of the thai locals, and screw with their heads while they are here. and wealthy foreigners who are only thinking about business, rather than foreigners who love and respect the place are starting to take advantage of them all by slapping down money. a certain properties agent is snatching up a lot of good land to make it expensive. people are buying half rais of family land at alarming rates. so the locals who were well off before but should have held on to it are suddenly finding themselves priced out of their own market, and they leave. the honest foreigners with modest money go with them, and the rich bastards are left. add that to the fact that there is no police presence or justice system in place here (it's neighborhood honor), this place is going to go crazy.

but for now it is beautiful and excellent.

I think you're right.

The basic thing which is spoiling the beautiful places are the enormous gaps in building laws...if there are any.

If, just if, the local authorities would draw up building laws there would be no such thing as houses/villas/apartments built on a small piece of land; so small you can have a look into the bedroom-windows of your neighbours (A certain developer on Samui created such a horrible villa-park). In fact the roofs of the villas are not further away from each other than a mere 1 1/2 or 2 meters

But it's probably a dream because so many authorities have big pockets

Personally I think there should be a law that every villa should have at least 1 Rai or more.

Years ago the 'Green party' on the Balearic islands/Spain (Mallorca/Ibiza/Menorca) finally got a powerful say in the local government/province and they created 'green zones' all over the islands implementing that in certain areas you cannot build anymore, except on a very large piece of land.

It certainly helped a lot, but I'm afraid creating such laws will take a long time in Thailand.

(The negative side of such building laws is the fact that it drove prices right up to the sky. A normal -not extravagant- villa+pool will cost at least Euro 500.000.--/US$ 600.000.-- and way up; or 25 million Baht and up)

LaoPo

[seonai]

God i am really scared for this island now after reading all your posts. We have managed to keep things quiet so far and the type who like our island are couples and families. I, like SBK, admit to being a part of 'progress' but in the best way hopefully. Tasteful, quietly coloured, restaurant/bar with chill music. Actually the only bar on the island. We have a more restrictions than you guys as we are 99.9% Muslim here. Beaches are also no good - thank you Allah/Buddha/God/Shiva

[seonai]

PS - the bar was my husband's idea not mine

[girlx]

which island are you on seonai?

[LaoPo]

which island are you on seonai?

Koh Yao Noi, between Phuket and Krabi area:

LaoPo

[seonai]

Yes it is an island... but beware anyone coming here to try to start up a business... BEWARE.

This is protected land..... I can't say who but no one can come here and start something without connections.

Thanks to whoever for that. Otherwise we would be like Ao Nang or Railay or Phi Phi