Rise In British Men Marrying Thai Brides Behind Foreign Pensions Increase, U K Govt Suggests

[AnotherOneAmerican]

This post is so full of crap. Next it will be blaming people who have paid pensions for living too long. If you have paid into a pension; then you are fully entitled to what you are owed regardless. Just a shame that the government now is full of rich hi-so dipshits that have no grasp of what it is like to live like a normal person. Stop letting immigrants in with no way to fund themselves, stop foriegn aid to countries that hate us and that will save the honest tax payer more than the money quoted in the above crap.

Good point - but nowadays foreign aid to poor countries from western countries is a pittance and western countries are generally no longer funding useful infrastructure projects like they used to. China on the other hand is. I have noticed that over the last decade western funded aid projects for infrastructure purposes have all but dried up in SE Asia but China seems to fund every new road and now even a high-speed rail project to SE Asia is on the cards.

UK government currently spends 10bnUKP/year on foreign aid, 40bnUKP/year on defence.

Then the government special reserve (hidden defence spending) 2.5bn/year

Then security and intelligence (more hidden defence spending) 2bn/year

Edited May 10, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Waterloo]

why should a foreign wife watever nationallity,get a uk pension if shes never paid a penny in the uk,and moreover wont go there,and spend it in uk,its wrong and you know it,,about time the gravy train stopped

I don't know it's wrong, and my opinion is shared by many. You are arguing that I should marry a UK girl or else the Government should financially penalise me? That I and my wife should be penalised because after a blameless life, including a long engagement in the Armed Forces, and working hard to better myself and to increase my income that I should be confined to a country slowly submerging into mediocrity? How many billions are being spent on 2 aircraft carriers that will never justify their building and running costs? The UK is not a World power any more and should stop acting as if it is and spending priorities should be re-examined. Guaranteeing the freedom of the citizens of Europe (and I include those of Germany in that number) cost the UK dear and the country has never really recovered from that. Now the UK Government is spending money to house, clothe and feed people from those countries - and others who voted to run their countries their way - and failed. They have made their own beds and should be left to lie in them.

This move may well disturb the tranquility of my fading years and I despise those who support it. If only the Sale of Goods Act applied to this crap that the UK Government is selling. It seems to me that the Government is as corrupt and uncaring as the bankers that have left us all in a parlous state. I am usually not in favour of demonstrations, especially those by the great unwashed masquerading as 'students', but I sincerely hope that the mobs will take to the streets and stay there until this cruel plan is filed away in a dustbin.

If you are already retired this measure will not affect you it is not retrospective & it comes into force in april 2016

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

why should a foreign wife watever nationallity,get a uk pension if shes never paid a penny in the uk,and moreover wont go there,and spend it in uk,its wrong and you know it,,about time the gravy train stopped

I don't know it's wrong, and my opinion is shared by many. You are arguing that I should marry a UK girl or else the Government should financially penalise me? That I and my wife should be penalised because after a blameless life, including a long engagement in the Armed Forces, and working hard to better myself and to increase my income that I should be confined to a country slowly submerging into mediocrity? How many billions are being spent on 2 aircraft carriers that will never justify their building and running costs? The UK is not a World power any more and should stop acting as if it is and spending priorities should be re-examined. Guaranteeing the freedom of the citizens of Europe (and I include those of Germany in that number) cost the UK dear and the country has never really recovered from that. Now the UK Government is spending money to house, clothe and feed people from those countries - and others who voted to run their countries their way - and failed. They have made their own beds and should be left to lie in them.

This move may well disturb the tranquility of my fading years and I despise those who support it. If only the Sale of Goods Act applied to this crap that the UK Government is selling. It seems to me that the Government is as corrupt and uncaring as the bankers that have left us all in a parlous state. I am usually not in favour of demonstrations, especially those by the great unwashed masquerading as 'students', but I sincerely hope that the mobs will take to the streets and stay there until this cruel plan is filed away in a dustbin.

If you are already retired this measure will not affect you it is not retrospective & it comes into force in april 2016

If you have a wife who does not have NI contributions of her own and reaches state pension age after April 2016, then she will not receive the State Pension. If she makes state retirement age before April 2016 then she can still rely on her husbands record to get a State Pension. Whether the husband is currently retired or due to retire at some future date will make no difference.

[Waterloo]

why should a foreign wife watever nationallity,get a uk pension if shes never paid a penny in the uk,and moreover wont go there,and spend it in uk,its wrong and you know it,,about time the gravy train stopped

I don't know it's wrong, and my opinion is shared by many. You are arguing that I should marry a UK girl or else the Government should financially penalise me? That I and my wife should be penalised because after a blameless life, including a long engagement in the Armed Forces, and working hard to better myself and to increase my income that I should be confined to a country slowly submerging into mediocrity? How many billions are being spent on 2 aircraft carriers that will never justify their building and running costs? The UK is not a World power any more and should stop acting as if it is and spending priorities should be re-examined. Guaranteeing the freedom of the citizens of Europe (and I include those of Germany in that number) cost the UK dear and the country has never really recovered from that. Now the UK Government is spending money to house, clothe and feed people from those countries - and others who voted to run their countries their way - and failed. They have made their own beds and should be left to lie in them.

This move may well disturb the tranquility of my fading years and I despise those who support it. If only the Sale of Goods Act applied to this crap that the UK Government is selling. It seems to me that the Government is as corrupt and uncaring as the bankers that have left us all in a parlous state. I am usually not in favour of demonstrations, especially those by the great unwashed masquerading as 'students', but I sincerely hope that the mobs will take to the streets and stay there until this cruel plan is filed away in a dustbin.

If you are already retired this measure will not affect you it is not retrospective & it comes into force in april 2016

If you have a wife who does not have NI contributions of her own and reaches state pension age after April 2016, then she will not receive the State Pension. If she makes state retirement age before April 2016 then she can still rely on her husbands record to get a State Pension. Whether the husband is currently retired or due to retire at some future date will make no difference.

yes you are quite correct, I was incorrectly assuming both were retired, it is of course possible that he is retired & she is not.

[osiboy]

the problem to me is that its not a level playing field in the UK, those of us born and bred there are now in competition for min wage jobs but with eastern europeans and other immigrants that come and live 8/10/12 to a house and have such small bills to pay out compared to the rest of us , our standard of living is being erased via the back door and now the Govt want to tax us all for having a spare room , do they expect us to welcome the immigrants stealing away our standard of living ??

[MAJIC]

better get used to all these cutbacks

I can understand you being miffed by not having your pension being index linked while you are in Thailand. You can blame Thatcher and her Government for that one. It's about half way down the list of Pension alterations etc.

http://www.opalliance.org.uk/penhistory.htm

1980, If the link to indexing had not been broken,pensioners would be receiving £30 a week more,....thanks for nothing!

Edit for Additional info,above.

Edited May 10, 2013 by MAJIC

[7by7]

Sorry, Majic, but the 1980 Social Security Act is not the reason why expats in Thailand and other countries do not receive annual increases to their state pensions whilst pensioners in the UK and expats in some other countries do.

It's mainly to do with the UK having reciprocal arrangements with some countries but not with others, I believe.

There's a topic in General running to many pages on this if you want to wade through it.

[MAJIC]

Sorry, Majic, but the 1980 Social Security Act is not the reason why expats in Thailand and other countries do not receive annual increases to their state pensions whilst pensioners in the UK and expats in some other countries do.

It's mainly to do with the UK having reciprocal arrangements with some countries but not with others, I believe.

There's a topic in General running to many pages on this if you want to wade through it.

Well if that is the case? then she didn't do any of the British Residents any favours either,and we were talking about index linking,which is another issue,i.e abolishing index linking cost all retirees extra money they would have got from 1980,which is what the BBC stated on the link.

[7by7]

Pensions were still indexed linked, but instead of being linked to earnings they were, and still are, linked to inflation, now measured by the Consumer Price Index.

Which meant that last autumn the chancellor raised the state pension by 5.2%.

Don't know about you, but that's more than the 0% my pay has increased over the last year!

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Sorry, Majic, but the 1980 Social Security Act is not the reason why expats in Thailand and other countries do not receive annual increases to their state pensions whilst pensioners in the UK and expats in some other countries do.

It's mainly to do with the UK having reciprocal arrangements with some countries but not with others, I believe.

There's a topic in General running to many pages on this if you want to wade through it.

To assist,the relevant legal instrument is Section 3 of the Social Security; Up rating Regulations 2001. To change this law is relatively easy so this is not the problem. The problem arises because the government, as a matter policy, has decided not to up rate state pensions for non resident UK pensioners except for those living in the EU (and it's territories) and those residing in countries with which the UK government has a reciprocal Social Security agreement. Contrary to logic, the fact of or the absence of such an agreement makes not a jot's worth of difference to the capacity of the UK government to award the increases.

[wellred]

Just another off topic finger pointing session from the UK government.They have been doing this for years. They blame one group and then another all to keep Joe public from focusing on the fact they are the reason the economy is in the tank.

Cut backs on benefits, inspection of those that receive state assistance which the majority have been paying into through high taxes all their working life.Although the propaganda would have us believing no one works anymore and just live from claiming welfare.

Where did the money go?

That is in an easy one. They (the government) have been robbing the country blind for years.They manipulate policy to favor those companies, banks, etc that they have an interest in.They prop up a corrupted system.

The British people (of which I am one) need to wake up to the rot that has set in before they all end up like Greece.

The topic of paying pensions to wives of Britons outside the country or of different ethnic/National backgrounds is a test case, if they can do it with one group they will do it to all.

Soon the country will have a welfare system that benefits no one apart from those at the top handling the money.

Enough already! its time people stood their ground and showed the British Government that they are there to serve the public not lord over them.

sorry rant over

How do we show them that? Doesn't matter which party gets voted in. Same shit just a different puppet spitting out the words. I really don't know how we can make things better. Maybe another crash but this time let the banks go to the wall.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

better get used to all these cutbacks

I can understand you being miffed by not having your pension being index linked while you are in Thailand. You can blame Thatcher and her Government for that one. It's about half way down the list of Pension alterations etc.

http://www.opalliance.org.uk/penhistory.htm

1980, If the link to indexing had not been broken,pensioners would be receiving £30 a week more,....thanks for nothing!

Edit for Additional info,above.

Useful link, thanks.

[bikerider21]

why should a foreign wife watever nationallity,get a uk pension if shes never paid a penny in the uk,and moreover wont go there,and spend it in uk,its wrong and you know it,,about time the gravy train stopped

I don't know it's wrong, and my opinion is shared by many. You are arguing that I should marry a UK girl or else the Government should financially penalise me? That I and my wife should be penalised because after a blameless life, including a long engagement in the Armed Forces, and working hard to better myself and to increase my income that I should be confined to a country slowly submerging into mediocrity? How many billions are being spent on 2 aircraft carriers that will never justify their building and running costs? The UK is not a World power any more and should stop acting as if it is and spending priorities should be re-examined. Guaranteeing the freedom of the citizens of Europe (and I include those of Germany in that number) cost the UK dear and the country has never really recovered from that. Now the UK Government is spending money to house, clothe and feed people from those countries - and others who voted to run their countries their way - and failed. They have made their own beds and should be left to lie in them.

This move may well disturb the tranquility of my fading years and I despise those who support it. If only the Sale of Goods Act applied to this crap that the UK Government is selling. It seems to me that the Government is as corrupt and uncaring as the bankers that have left us all in a parlous state. I am usually not in favour of demonstrations, especially those by the great unwashed masquerading as 'students', but I sincerely hope that the mobs will take to the streets and stay there until this cruel plan is filed away in a dustbin.

?Winstonc I agree with your comments and find those of Bagwan typical of many comments on Thai Visa. It's actually better to not even read or answer such unqualified and biased comments.

[Bagwan]

why should a foreign wife watever nationallity,get a uk pension if shes never paid a penny in the uk,and moreover wont go there,and spend it in uk,its wrong and you know it,,about time the gravy train stopped

I don't know it's wrong, and my opinion is shared by many. You are arguing that I should marry a UK girl or else the Government should financially penalise me? That I and my wife should be penalised because after a blameless life, including a long engagement in the Armed Forces, and working hard to better myself and to increase my income that I should be confined to a country slowly submerging into mediocrity? How many billions are being spent on 2 aircraft carriers that will never justify their building and running costs? The UK is not a World power any more and should stop acting as if it is and spending priorities should be re-examined. Guaranteeing the freedom of the citizens of Europe (and I include those of Germany in that number) cost the UK dear and the country has never really recovered from that. Now the UK Government is spending money to house, clothe and feed people from those countries - and others who voted to run their countries their way - and failed. They have made their own beds and should be left to lie in them.

This move may well disturb the tranquility of my fading years and I despise those who support it. If only the Sale of Goods Act applied to this crap that the UK Government is selling. It seems to me that the Government is as corrupt and uncaring as the bankers that have left us all in a parlous state. I am usually not in favour of demonstrations, especially those by the great unwashed masquerading as 'students', but I sincerely hope that the mobs will take to the streets and stay there until this cruel plan is filed away in a dustbin.

If you are already retired this measure will not affect you it is not retrospective & it comes into force in april 2016

That was my reading of the report but I found that I was in a minority of 1. I hope that we are correct in our interpretation. As a former gunnery fire control specialist I should know better than to go off at half cock. My comments on the general state of affairs in the UK stand. Like many old timers I do not feel that I abandoned my country but rather that my country abandoned me. I seek nothing more than what my wife and I are due.

One of the great BS lines of all time is "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." In the same comic vein as "i am a jelly doughnut."

[7by7]

One of the great BS lines of all time is "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." In the same comic vein as "i am a jelly doughnut."

Both said by John F. Kennedy, 35th president of the USA (although the second is a myth, he didn't say that at all).

So, what connection does a philandering American president have with the UK social security system in general and the UK's state pension in particular?

Of course, I am well aware that the answer to the question "How can you tell when a politician is lying?" is "Their lips are moving!"

But, as discussed at length earlier in the topic, the money available for state pensions is decreasing relative to the number of people claiming it; and this is going to continue for the foreseeable future.

I can see the logic behind saying that if someone has never paid into the system then they should not be able to withdraw from it; particularly if that person has never set foot in the country.

[bigbamboo]

One of the great BS lines of all time is "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country." In the same comic vein as "i am a jelly doughnut."

Both said by John F. Kennedy, 35th president of the USA (although the second is a myth, he didn't say that at all).

So, what connection does a philandering American president have with the UK social security system in general and the UK's state pension in particular?

Of course, I am well aware that the answer to the question "How can you tell when a politician is lying?" is "Their lips are moving!"

But, as discussed at length earlier in the topic, the money available for state pensions is decreasing relative to the number of people claiming it; and this is going to continue for the foreseeable future.

I can see the logic behind saying that if someone has never paid into the system then they should not be able to withdraw from it; particularly if that person has never set foot in the country.

Never heard the jelly doughnut one but he did say, "I am a sausage"....... (Ich bin ein Berliner)

[7by7]

Jelly doughnut misconception

There is a misconception that Kennedy made a risible error by saying Ich bin ein Berliner (emphasis added): the claim is made that Kennedy referred to himself not as a "citizen of Berlin" but as a "jelly doughnut"..............

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Jelly doughnut misconception

There is a misconception that Kennedy made a risible error by saying Ich bin ein Berliner (emphasis added): the claim is made that Kennedy referred to himself not as a "citizen of Berlin" but as a "jelly doughnut"..............

I thought it was "I am a cocktail-sausage"

[Tafia]

It should be stopped. A friend of mine who is 75 years old receives his pension and rightly so but why does his 36 year old Thai wife who has never set foot in Britain. She will receive this for life if its not stopped. In addition to that in the sad event my friend passes away she will receive a widows pension. <deleted> !!!

Not so.Since 9 April 2001 Widows Benefit can no longer be claimed in the UK as this was replaced from that date by Bereavement Benefit which can be claimed by both men and women. So if he dies and If she is under age 45 yrs and has no children she would only receive the one off £2,000 Bereavement Payment.

If she is 45 yrs or over with no children she would receive the one off £2,000 Bereavement Payment and a weekly Bereavement Allowance paid for a maximum of one year.

If she has a child under age 20 years and in non advanced education she would receive Widowed Parent's Allowance until the child was age 20 yrs or started advanced education. The Bereavement Payment would also be payable.

If she was over state pension age she would claim a State Pension and not Bereavement Benefit.

The amount of benefit she would receive will not be known until the date of bereavement.

[Spalpeen]

Jelly doughnut misconception

There is a misconception that Kennedy made a risible error by saying Ich bin ein Berliner (emphasis added): the claim is made that Kennedy referred to himself not as a "citizen of Berlin" but as a "jelly doughnut"..............

'Jelly Doughnut' it is. Look up 'Berliner' on Wiki.

[Theoutsider]

The great NI scam keeps roiling, it all goes into one big tax pot then split up.

Can you opt out and go private?

They will just keep pushing the retirement age up with living longer.

[yoshiwara]

The great NI scam keeps roiling, it all goes into one big tax pot then split up.

Can you opt out and go private?

They will just keep pushing the retirement age up with living longer.

That would be a logical way to go.

[louse1953]

Plenty of Poms scamming benefits here.

This is called passing the buck for their xxxx up in earlier years,

also many Brits married to Philippino women and other Europeans too not only Thais

The uk govt made the mistake of opening its borders to allow unskilled eu workers into the country, these unskilled workers bring in their families and find that they are entitled to claim benefits because they are low earners,, whilst the majority of uk unemployed find that they are better off on benefits so stay there,,, now the purse strings are getting tighter,

I'm not one for claiming benefits whilst I'm still in employment and at this time don't need it, but those idiots running the country grind my teeth,

I just wonder exactly how much I've paid in NICs in my working life to date as I've been paying at the higher rate of NICs for 28 years,

the govt would have been better keeping out the unskilled eu workforce and instead should have better controlled payment of benefits to the unemployed and checks on their job seeking

[louse1953]

The Aussie government pays absolutely nothing, not even thier own citizens who have retired abroad get the pension. My father came over for a 10 day holiday and his aussie pension was cut off because he left the country. Social Security is linked to immigration and they know the minute you step out of the country and pow you are on your own. They even know when you take a dump and how long it took you.

This is total bullshit Chooka,and you know it. I get the Oz pension and come and go as I please,also get telephone allowance and pharma. allowance for 13 weeks,even though I am not in Oz.Your missing out mate.SS will cut off the dole,not old age pension.

So for all the unbelievers with there heads in the sand or in denial, it looks like Ausy and the NZ are way ahead of the game with stopping benifits for none residents. It is just a matter of time b4 the axe falls in your own homelands

[louse1953]

when im brown bread my wife will get my post office pension,it wont be alot i only did 30years with them,but its enough i think,i wont be telling her about the state pension,why should i shes never paid tax there,and she means the world to me VOTE UKIP by post or email if your allowed,maybe its 1 of the reasons we left in the first place,i know it was my main reason,,,,

Gee mate,your all heart.

[louse1953]

It's not just that foreign wives may not have paid into the system but also that the UK economy doesn't get any of the pension when it is spent.

That is a very important point to make and seems to be glossed over by the majority of posters. The millions they are sending overseas is leaving the UK economy, most likely permanently. It is in the interests of the Government, and the UK generally, to keep as much of this money working in the UK economy supporting local businesses and industry etc.

Another point that people don't realise is the Old Age Pension itself. Not sure about the UK but the figures on Oz that I have seen was that the OAP was set at 65 years...when the life expectancy was much lower...mid to late 50's years old. i.e it was for old people (at that particular time).

Not everybody was expected to live to a ripe old age (65yo) to get it. Now that the life expectancy is up around the 80 mark don't be surprised to see the age when the pension kicks in to rise markedly in the not too distant future. it has already started in some countries.

I work in the construction industry,so you want me to work on to what,75 maybe.Get real,I'm stuffed already and only 59.Excuse me for trying to live a healthy lifestyle,and not dying in time.I' ve paid a small fortune in tax and want a pittance back.

[louse1953]

How about the retired people who have migrated to other countries like NZ., Aust, Canada and Sth Africa, to join their children and grandchildren, and find that their pensions are frozen from the time that they left and will not be annually indexed. In my case i left in 1973 and thats where it remains. If i had gone to say Spain, Germany or America, my pension would be indexed annually.

The Norwegians have a good take on this.

It is reduced if you are oversea because the money is not circulating in the local economy so the government loses VAT.

Norwegian live a long time,and don't clog up their home hospitals,nursing homes,etc,therefor saving the tax payer a fortune.

However it increases on line with all normal increases.

[7by7]

I work in the construction industry,so you want me to work on to what,75 maybe.Get real,I'm stuffed already and only 59.Excuse me for trying to live a healthy lifestyle,and not dying in time.I' ve paid a small fortune in tax and want a pittance back.

Yes, there are areas of government expenditure which everyone thinks are a waste of money; but not everyone agrees what those areas are!

Over two thirds of UK government expenditure goes to health and welfare, including pensions.

Would you say that is a waste of money?

Maybe you and all members of your family have never had the need to access the NHS; private hospitals for all the births, private dental treatment, private everything. But it's nice to know the NHS is there if you or a member of your family is knocked down in the street, is it not? Plus, all those doctors, nurses, dentists etc. working in the private sector; who paid for their training? The tax payer.

Then there's education; maybe you and all of your family were privately educated; but again the taxpayer paid for the teachers in those school to be trained. University? Despite the introduction of tuition fees, still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Except in Scotland, where there's no tuition fees so it's totally subsidised by the taxpayer.

Then there's the police and fire brigade. Maybe you've been lucky enough never to have needed to call upon either; but it's nice to know they're there if needed.

I've based the following on the NICs I paid 2012/13, taken from my P60, and the current basic pension rate.

If I had paid the same amount of NICs every year from 16 and continued paying the same until I was 66 (the current retirement age for someone my age) and the basic pension remained at the current level then it would take me a little under 12 years to get back all my NICs.

Of course, I haven't paid the same NICs for the last 41 years! My income has increased by nearly 40 times since my first full time job at 16; so my annual NICs will have increased by roughly the same.

So the actual number of years I'd need to draw my state pension for in order to get all my NICs back is a lot less than 12; probably less than half that.

(You can ask HMRC for a statement of all the NICs you've paid since starting work, so could do this and make an accurate calculation if you wished.)

So remarks like "I've paid a small fortune in tax and want a pittance back" are ridiculous; you're already getting a large amount of your tax money back in the form of services provided by the government, and will get all your NICs back within a few years of retirement.

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate to die before then; but that's the way insurance works. Do you expect a refund of your house insurance because you haven't been burgled?

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

when im brown bread my wife will get my post office pension,it wont be alot i only did 30years with them,but its enough i think,i wont be telling her about the state pension,why should i shes never paid tax there,and she means the world to me VOTE UKIP by post or email if your allowed,maybe its 1 of the reasons we left in the first place,i know it was my main reason,,,,

Just as a matter of interest, what plans do you have in mind for the people you don't like!

[Waterloo]

I work in the construction industry,so you want me to work on to what,75 maybe.Get real,I'm stuffed already and only 59.Excuse me for trying to live a healthy lifestyle,and not dying in time.I' ve paid a small fortune in tax and want a pittance back.

Yes, there are areas of government expenditure which everyone thinks are a waste of money; but not everyone agrees what those areas are!

Over two thirds of UK government expenditure goes to health and welfare, including pensions.

Would you say that is a waste of money?

Maybe you and all members of your family have never had the need to access the NHS; private hospitals for all the births, private dental treatment, private everything. But it's nice to know the NHS is there if you or a member of your family is knocked down in the street, is it not? Plus, all those doctors, nurses, dentists etc. working in the private sector; who paid for their training? The tax payer.

Then there's education; maybe you and all of your family were privately educated; but again the taxpayer paid for the teachers in those school to be trained. University? Despite the introduction of tuition fees, still heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. Except in Scotland, where there's no tuition fees so it's totally subsidised by the taxpayer.

Then there's the police and fire brigade. Maybe you've been lucky enough never to have needed to call upon either; but it's nice to know they're there if needed.

I've based the following on the NICs I paid 2012/13, taken from my P60, and the current basic pension rate.

If I had paid the same amount of NICs every year from 16 and continued paying the same until I was 66 (the current retirement age for someone my age) and the basic pension remained at the current level then it would take me a little under 12 years to get back all my NICs.

Of course, I haven't paid the same NICs for the last 41 years! My income has increased by nearly 40 times since my first full time job at 16; so my annual NICs will have increased by roughly the same.

So the actual number of years I'd need to draw my state pension for in order to get all my NICs back is a lot less than 12; probably less than half that.

(You can ask HMRC for a statement of all the NICs you've paid since starting work, so could do this and make an accurate calculation if you wished.)

So remarks like "I've paid a small fortune in tax and want a pittance back" are ridiculous; you're already getting a large amount of your tax money back in the form of services provided by the government, and will get all your NICs back within a few years of retirement.

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate to die before then; but that's the way insurance works. Do you expect a refund of your house insurance because you haven't been burgled?

Eloquently & accurately put as usual 7by7 but I do have a little sympathy for this gentlemens position, whilst retirement ages will have to rise to counter the demographic changes these rises will fall heavier on people in positions involving manual labour.

There will need at some point to be consideration of a persons occupation & therefore what is a reasonable retirement age based on occupation.