Substantial Amount Missing From The Bank Account

[MegaRanter]

Once upon a time, i was depositing 99K baht thru ADM , after counting, my card came out and ' sorry, machine out of order appeared on the screen.

next day walked in dragged the desk guy to the machine and filled out a form 11 am money was in my account.

Using one branch increases the chance of the staff going extra to help.

[MegaRanter]

All the bank cards from thai banks dont work in Nigeria, must have chip, and for purchase must use pin to confirm. Its kinda loose in Thailand. I wrote thousands of cheques over the years with just 'pay the bearer' luckily never had any issues. where i live now, you have write the names spelt correctly and on the back of specify the type of Identification the bearer would present.

find out the tellers on duty on the said date and see if you can Identify who received your cash.

If it were to be in a business district that the bank is located, i guess it would help better.

[masuk]

In principle, there is no protection in Thailand for this kind of fraud. Select a bank which provides SMS alerts weekly, showing the balance of your account. They will also have a SMS service for withdrawals exceeding a certain amount, lets say Baht 1000 or more. That is the only way to safeguard yourself in Thailand.

Bangkok Bank SMS me immediately I use the account. This gives me some protection, and as others do, I only keep an operating amount in my Debit Card account.

I have been particularly concerned that NO-ONE ever checks my signature on the card against what I sign for. Seems that no Thai bank uses PINs for card transactions apart from ATMs.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

I love to respond by saying I am better then you. It helps make me feel superior and hope to get a pat on the shoulder.

Really? How odd. Maybe you have some sort of personality disorder. Personally I'm not very bothered about what people on here think of me.

But I do think that it is worthwhile taking the trouble to point out to people how they can avoid or at least minimise potential problems, and I dont care whether they thank me or not. Even if they dont take the message to heart maybe someone else will, and that makes it worth the effort.

[matthewt]

Let me get this right.....4 months ago 150K was withdrawn and only now you have noticed it. mmmmmmm also you do not check your deposits or update your bank book to see that everything was done right??? Also you might have been 'distracted' ???.......my advice is go to the main branch and explain why you have not checked your account for 4 months and how you might have been distracted and see if they keep a straight face.....come on---- what world do you live in that you have very little regard for your personal finance????......I suspect that there is more to this story then we are getting....good luck

[yoshiwara]

Unfortunately could not find any receipt.It was either not given to me or i 've lost it. As i 've said earlier i might have been distracted that moment so i don't remember if i had a receipt at all. Normally i am very attentive but there are moments..

Hi Dick,

so you still have the receipt from the deposit? if so, make sure you make a copy of it, go to your home branch where you opened the account with a Thai who can speak English and who you trust just incase the manager does not speak English. Show then the original receipt but give them the copy! and take it from there.

As a point, sometimes when I have not updated my book for a long time when they do update it, they won't show all the transactions, they just summarize the totals because if it is a busy account like mine there maybe 400 transactions over the course of a few months.

If no joy from the branch call the helpline they speak good English and it will take about 2 days for them to investigate but they will get back to you with answers. They are very helpful.

Let us know how you get on

You want the bank to investigate your claim that you made a deposit at a time when you were very distracted, that you don't have a receipt for it and it is not recorded in your passbook?

Tell us if that ever works and your phantom deposit is credited to your account.

I might be getting somewhat confused by the storyline.

If I am right in thinking that there is no record of such a deposit having been made ie it never appeared on the account records (if the monies appeared on the account then loss of receipt can be discounted), then there cannot be any record of such monies having been withdrawn. Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

[fire and ice]

Id go to head office even if you dont live in Bangers and need to fly there.

Teh fact the branch staff wer ento only unheloful but seme to have directly stolen your counter deposti infers the branch staff are the culprits.

[wooloomooloo]

Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

I'd reckon that that is the Bank's understanding, too.

Unless there's incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, dick, you've no chance. Sorry.

[Joe Mamma]

Sounds like an inside job. ATMs are a risky new convenience. I prefer the government banks here.

[marell]

Just visit the head office. They will deal with this matter fast

Maybe...but don't hold your breath

[gaucho]

missing money was a big thing 10 to 12 years back in the philippines ...it turned out to be inside jobs ....very well organised and random selection ....the biggest headache was the attitude of the staff at the banks ...dismissive and could not give a flying fxxk ...best to get the online phone message as soon as a withdrawal is made ....was in patts at the mall once and the atm took this guys card ...he had funds just a mal function ...it took him TWO WEEKS to sort it out ...

[Pib]

In principle, there is no protection in Thailand for this kind of fraud. Select a bank which provides SMS alerts weekly, showing the balance of your account. They will also have a SMS service for withdrawals exceeding a certain amount, lets say Baht 1000 or more. That is the only way to safeguard yourself in Thailand.

Bangkok Bank SMS me immediately I use the account. This gives me some protection, and as others do, I only keep an operating amount in my Debit Card account.

I have been particularly concerned that NO-ONE ever checks my signature on the card against what I sign for. Seems that no Thai bank uses PINs for card transactions apart from ATMs.

No checking of signatures on credit and debit card purchases in Thailand is the norm.

The wife and I use our U.S. no foreign transaction fee credit cards numerous times per week in Thailand to buy all kinds of things....and we use our Thai bank debit cards on occasions to pay for things when they don't want a foreign card. Buying fuel at various gas stations (usually PTT), buys at stores like Lotus, Big C, HomePro, Foodland, Tops; paying for visits to the hospital; buying meds at the pharmacy, paying for food at restaurants; I could continue on with the list for all kinds of stores. In the years the wife and I have been using our cards for hundreds of buys, only twice has a checkout clerk compared the signature on the card to the signature on the receipt...both times that was at the same Tops in the Pinklao Central Plaza here in Bangkok. On one of those signature checks the wife signed her name in Thai when the card was signed in English...the clerk caught that and the wife just signed again in English....the other time was an apparently close comparison/look of my signature. However, but, most of the time at this Tops the clerks just briefly glance at the card.

In many stores clerks hand the card back to you immediately after swiping the card or immediately lay it down until you finish signing the receipt but they never compare the signatures. So, a lost/stolen credit or debit card in Thailand can easily turn into a shopping spree for the crook. And due to little to no consumer protection in Thailand you are pretty much on the hook or the charges all the way up to the time you report the lost to the card issuing bank and then another 5 minutes or so after they have received (and accepted) the notification and cancelled the card number. Remember when it comes to credit/debit card consumer protection in Thailand it really should be called bank protection. And stores now this and probably have little worry of a charge-back ever occurring on use of stolen card, especially a charge-back against a Thai credit/debit card.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Pib

[pmarlin]

"I might haven been distracted by the phone call ,walking away without even checking receipt and the book."

Wow.

I always check every single receipt I am ever given, anywhere in the world, and I have noted an astonishing number of errors on them. And not necessarily to my detriment.

As for the phantom withdrawal, does not the code on the passbook debit entry indicate how it was made? It does on all my Thai passbooks.

I check all my bank accounts online at least once a month, and any account with more than a small balance gets checked at least weekly. My main UK current account gets checked more or less daily, which allows me to move money to interest-bearing accounts as it arrives.

I find it advisable to ensure that my Thai ATM cards (which offer no fraud protection, unlike my UK cards) are only connected to an account with very little money in it. I have other accounts with the same banks for the bulk of my deposits. This means that no matter what happens, no one can ever withdraw large sums from my account via ATM fraud.

WOW is right - Why would anyone keep a large amount in an ATM account..?? Keep most money in a pasbook savings account and transfer when you need to. Alwas keep ATM accounts at a bare bones minimum.

Then get hit by a bus on a Saturday night when the banks are closed and the hospital demands payment before they will treat you? No thanks. Almost lost my GF because she urgently needed blood that night and the banks were closed. Insurance eventually reimbursed, but had a neighbor not loaned me $2000 that night, she wouldn't have survived until the banks opened. Yeah, it's a one-off, but served me notice. I'm not in Kansas any more.

Get the SMS service that texts you when there's any activity. My phone usually buzzes before I even get the card out of the ATM.

Have two savings accounts both with atm cards, one with a large balance and the other with a small balance for every day use, Also having a credit card for emergencies helps.

[dick]

Yeah,i know the chances are really slim but i need still to exhaust all the means . Don't like to give up without the fight. If i only could compel the staff to review a CCTV footage that would be an incontrovertible proof that i made a deposit that day. Even if i don't get to see a penny from this money i would like to punish those involved in the scum or covering up such.

Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

I'd reckon that that is the Bank's understanding, too.

Unless there's incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, dick, you've no chance. Sorry.

[yoshiwara]

Yeah,i know the chances are really slim but i need still to exhaust all the means . Don't like to give up without the fight. If i only could compel the staff to review a CCTV footage that would be an incontrovertible proof that i made a deposit that day. Even if i don't get to see a penny from this money i would like to punish those involved in the scum or covering up such.

Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

I'd reckon that that is the Bank's understanding, too.

Unless there's incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, dick, you've no chance. Sorry.

If there is no record of the money being deposited there certainly isn't a record of said monies being withdrawn.

It would appear that since the money was not in your account when you checked, you have assumed that it went in and then it went out. It would appear that there is no record of any transaction of this amount on this account. Therefore assuming you entered the bank with some money, something happened but whatever happened the money has not gone through the account.

[dick]

You didn't get the story right. There are two separate cases here: 1.Missing from the account 150k entered in the book later 2. Unaccounted deposit of 37000-50000 baht on the other date which is not in the book.

According to the call center which i've contacted 5 minutes ago 150k was not withdrawn in January as it states in the bank book. However it is of the little consolation because the money is gone.As they just confirmed on the phone the statement won't indicate the exact place of withdrawal or particular account where the money could have possibly been transferred.

Yeah,i know the chances are really slim but i need still to exhaust all the means . Don't like to give up without the fight. If i only could compel the staff to review a CCTV footage that would be an incontrovertible proof that i made a deposit that day. Even if i don't get to see a penny from this money i would like to punish those involved in the scum or covering up such.

Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

I'd reckon that that is the Bank's understanding, too.

Unless there's incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, dick, you've no chance. Sorry.

If there is no record of the money being deposited there certainly isn't a record of said monies being withdrawn.
It would appear that since the money was not in your account when you checked, you have assumed that it went in and then it went out. It would appear that there is no record of any transaction of this amount on this account. Therefore assuming you entered the bank with some money, something happened but whatever happened the money has not gone through the account.

[fvw53]

Millions have been stolen from bank accounts also in Thailand

Did OP read this :

http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/computer/349318/thailand-among-victims-of-worldwide-cyber-atm-attacks

[fvw53]

Just 15 minutes after I posted the link

http://www.bangkokpo...ber-atm-attacks

I saw on BBCWorld (at 15h00 BKK time) .... this worldwide theft is on top of the news..... and they show pictures how the money was stolen using fake ATM cards

[StevenHeidbriderSr]

May have no connection but. . Hackers stealing 45 Million USD from such accounts around the Globe is in the news.

[Pib]

You didn't get the story right. There are two separate cases here: 1.Missing from the account 150k entered in the book later 2. Unaccounted deposit of 37000-50000 baht on the other date which is not in the book.

According to the call center which i've contacted 5 minutes ago 150k was not withdrawn in January as it states in the bank book. However it is of the little consolation because the money is gone.As they just confirmed on the phone the statement won't indicate the exact place of withdrawal or particular account where the money could have possibly been transferred.

A statement would rarely showed detailed info...just info that it was deposited, withdrawn, etc. However, the bank's detailed database records would show details...like what specific ATM(s) the money was withdrawn from, which branch the money was withdrawal from, what online ibanking activity transferred the funds, etc. Now if those detailed records have been tampered with then the money trail gets much harder to follow.

[yoshiwara]

You didn't get the story right. There are two separate cases here: 1.Missing from the account 150k entered in the book later 2. Unaccounted deposit of 37000-50000 baht on the other date which is not in the book.

According to the call center which i've contacted 5 minutes ago 150k was not withdrawn in January as it states in the bank book. However it is of the little consolation because the money is gone.As they just confirmed on the phone the statement won't indicate the exact place of withdrawal or particular account where the money could have possibly been transferred.

A statement would rarely showed detailed info...just info that it was deposited, withdrawn, etc. However, the bank's detailed database records would show details...like what specific ATM(s) the money was withdrawn from, which branch the money was withdrawal from, what online ibanking activity transferred the funds, etc. Now if those detailed records have been tampered with then the money trail gets much harder to follow.

I am confused what these statements mean:

'1.Missing from the account 150k entered in the book later' What does entered in the book later mean? The deposit was entered in your pass book at a date later than the day you made the deposit? The withdrawal was made before the deposit was recorded?

'2. Unaccounted deposit of 37000-50000 baht on the other date which is not in the book'. Unaccounted deposit of how much? Is this a reference to more than one deposit?

[louse1953]

Chip and pin here already,but still don't fill me with confidence.

Looks like my negative banking experiences, as reported yesterday at post#19 on the thread at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/637525-is-there-a-multiple-entry-retirement-visa/, may not be all that unusual after all!

As I stated in that post, my initial Krung Thai account was the victim of a couple of sizeable phantom ATM cash withdrawals from someone who had presumably cloned my debit card. And exactly the same thing then happened with my replacement Kasikorn account: again, someone apparently cloned my debit card and used it to make a couple of sizeable ATM cash withdrawals!

At least Kasikorn did, in my case, inform me that my card had been used to withdraw cash at ATM in a place 300km away from where I lived and which I had never visited in stark contrast to the complete lack of co-operation with which the OP was confronted. But they did insist on my obtaining a police report before they were prepared to consider the possibility of a refund at which point I simply gave up in frustration.

I also had a problem immediately after moving out here (and before opening a bank account locally), when I attempted to withdraw cash from a local Krungsri ATM using my UK credit card. For reasons best known only unto itself, the ATM refused to produce the money which I had requested but still charged me for the transaction!

And this particular ATM appears to have a long memory because a duplicate phantom transaction appeared in my UK credit card account a couple of years later, even though I had not risked sticking my card into it again in the meantime! Fortunately my UK bank then gave me a full refund and issued me with a new credit card.

My present account here is with the Bangkok Bank, and I keep the balance as low as possible by only transferring from my UK account the amount I expect needing to live on here each month. In addition I do not hold a debit (or any other) card for my Bangkok Bank account.

I simply dont trust ATMs in LOS with a barge pole given the clearly lax arrangements in place to counter their fraudulent use. IMHO you stick a card (local or foreign) into them at your peril. However, should a UK-style CHIP & PIN system ever be introduced here, I might be prepared to think again. Any chance of such a system being rolled out before the start of the next millennium (A.D. not B.E.), perhaps?

[louse1953]

A form from the police will compel said bank to handover atm camera footage.Police then gave me cd to take away and copy.Chilling watching money coming out of my account.Also,plenty of others scammed the same days.I totalled 800k in 3 days

You didn't get the story right. There are two separate cases here: 1.Missing from the account 150k entered in the book later 2. Unaccounted deposit of 37000-50000 baht on the other date which is not in the book.

According to the call center which i've contacted 5 minutes ago 150k was not withdrawn in January as it states in the bank book. However it is of the little consolation because the money is gone.As they just confirmed on the phone the statement won't indicate the exact place of withdrawal or particular account where the money could have possibly been transferred.

Yeah,i know the chances are really slim but i need still to exhaust all the means . Don't like to give up without the fight. If i only could compel the staff to review a CCTV footage that would be an incontrovertible proof that i made a deposit that day. Even if i don't get to see a penny from this money i would like to punish those involved in the scum or covering up such.

Therefore the problem starts and stops on the day of the reported deposit. Is my understanding correct?

I'd reckon that that is the Bank's understanding, too.

Unless there's incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, dick, you've no chance. Sorry.

If there is no record of the money being deposited there certainly isn't a record of said monies being withdrawn.

It would appear that since the money was not in your account when you checked, you have assumed that it went in and then it went out. It would appear that there is no record of any transaction of this amount on this account. Therefore assuming you entered the bank with some money, something happened but whatever happened the money has not gone through the account.

[MrWorldwide]

I have zero 'fiscal OCD' here in Oz - probably naive given the number of homegrown scumbags - but from the instant I get on a plane that all changes. I check everything obsessively, including online transaction checks of my Aussie ATM account, and the only time I have ever been ripped off was when my wallet was stolen in Guilin back in 2002. I know the OP doesnt want any more finger-pointing, but this is one area where you really have to be neurotic, IMO - particularly if you are using outdoor ATMs. I try to restrict my withdrawals to the ATMs in banks, but even when I've had a few on Soi 4 or wherever I always take a second to check the card slot on an ATM to see if anything appears/feels 'non-standard', and I shield the keypad when I'm keying in my PIN - basic stuff, but its surprising to see how many people dont bother.

I've done some very silly things in Asia over the years, and probably should have died from alcohol intake alone, but when it comes to ATM machines I click into paranoid mode, whether I'm in Singapore or South Pattaya - go figure.

[newbepat]

I just copy this from K-Bank website might be worth reading

Security tips for safe electronic banking

Knowledge for safe and secure
electronic banking

Customers of a number of banks
have recently become victims of ATM skimming and PIN code theft by criminals who
forge ATM cards and withdraw cash from customers’ accounts. We would like to
inform you that over the past several years, commercial banks in Thailand have
been cooperating via the Thai Bankers’ Association to introduce various measures
against ATM skimming, which is also a problem in the international banking
community. Among these measures are installations of anti-skimmer devices and
closed-circuit TV cameras to detect any unusual activity, with immediate reports
to ATM-owning banks. Case reports on the detection of thieves’ skimmers are
circulated among banks, while ATM cards of all banks are seized upon suspected
card information copying. Over the past couple of years, banks have cooperated
with police officers several times in tracing and catching ATM card
forgers.

Nevertheless, many customers may still wonder how to
prevent such crimes. Thus, the following security tips are provided as
guidelines for customers:


1. Banking
transactions via ATM

1.1 Fraudsters’
methods
ATM card skimming is the
act of using a skimmer to illegally collect data from the magnetic strip of an
ATM card. Copying card information and stealing the ATM PIN code, fraudsters
will put the stolen ATM card information into a blank card and use it to
withdraw cash from ATMs. Card skimming can be categorized into two
types:
- Card skimming with a hand-held skimmer is the act in which
thieves copy information from the magnetic strip of an ATM card by tricking
customers into handing over their card at the ATM, and telling the thieves their
PIN code.
- Skimmer installation at an ATM can be done by
installing a skimmer device in the ATM card slot, wherein card information will
be copied as customers insert their ATM cards into the card slot for banking
transactions. Thieves will steal customers’ PIN codes by using a mini spy camera
positioned to record customers entering their codes, or installing a forged ATM
keyboard to cover the actual keyboard and record PIN codes entered by
customers.

Although the anti-skimmer devices used over the past
two to three years are effective in preventing skimmer installation, fraudsters
have developed new types of skimmers since the end of 2012 which are much
smaller and able to avoid detection by current anti-skimmer
measures.

At this time, the Bank has already developed and
installed a new version of anti-skimmer device which can effectively prevent
installation of the new skimmers by fraudsters.

1.2 Fraud prevention and
security tips

Customers are recommended to
follow these instructions:
- Check the appearance of the ATM
card slot. In case of abnormal appearance, do not insert your ATM card.
Customers are recommended to immediately inform the ATM-owning bank
accordingly.

- Check the appearance of the ATM keyboard, which may
be thicker than usual. If it appears thicker, do not insert your ATM card or
enter your PIN code.

- Stand close to the ATM with your hand
covering the ATM keyboard while entering your PIN code, to prevent others from
seeing and recording your PIN code in case a mini spy camera has been
installed.

- Do not hand over your ATM card and give your PIN code
to others to conduct ATM transactions for you, even if they are family members
or colleagues. If this is necessary, you should change your PIN code immediately
when you retrieve your ATM card.

- Beware of strangers who offer or
ask for help while using an ATM in cases where the ATM card is stuck in the ATM
or there are any other transaction problems. Also, you should beware of persons
distracting you as you wait at an ATM, as fraudsters may use mobile skimmers to
copy information and deceive customers to enter their PIN code while they are
distracted.

1.3 If you suspect your ATM card
has been copied, and money fraudulently
withdrawn

Customers are recommended to immediately
inform the card-owning bank for card seizure. For KBank customers, please
contact the K-Contact Center by calling 02 888 8888, around-the-clock. The Bank
will examine and verify data immediately in order to prevent any loss and
prevent others from using ATMs that have skimmers.

For any losses
suffered, practices adhered to by all commercial banks will be applied for
losses resulting from skimmers installed at any ATM. The losses are deemed as
not resulting from the mistake or negligence of cardholders. Card-issuing banks
will be responsible for the losses. Customers can have their card renewed at any
KBank branch without additional expense.

Edited May 12, 2013 by newbepat

[Pib]

Above seems to say "if" it can be proven your card info was stolen due to a card skimming device on the bank's ATM, then the bank will reimburse you. But I expect proving the loss was due to a card skimming device on their ATM could be a challenge as scammers place the skinning devices/mini camera on selected ATMs for X-amount of time and then remove them...then the crooks go duplicate the card and they can then use any bank's ATM in the world to withdraw the money---then where is the consumer protection.

[newbepat]

I see ATM card copied and money fraudulently withdrawn, but as we know, TIT

1.3 If you suspect your ATM card
has been copied, AND money fraudulently
withdrawn

Customers are recommended to immediately
inform the card-owning bank for card seizure. For KBank customers, please
contact the K-Contact Center by calling 02 888 8888, around-the-clock. The Bank
will examine and verify data immediately in order to prevent any loss and
prevent others from using ATMs that have skimmers.

For any losses
suffered, practices adhered to by all commercial banks will be applied for
losses resulting from skimmers installed at any ATM. The losses are deemed as
not resulting from the mistake or negligence of cardholders. Card-issuing banks
will be responsible for the losses. Customers can have their card renewed at any
KBank branch without additional expense.

[maidu]

I've been ripped off by ATM scam in Chiang Rai. I'm looking to contact either....

>>> anyone who has been ripped off and is contemplating or has instigated a lawsuit (against the banks, or....) in that regard

OR

>>> An attorney working in Thailand who is not afraid to take banks to task. In other words; Banks are in the biz of securing depositors' money. If they don't do that, they're not doing their jobs well enough.

If this clicks, please contact me, thanks.

[Pib]

I've been ripped off by ATM scam in Chiang Rai. I'm looking to contact either....

>>> anyone who has been ripped off and is contemplating or has instigated a lawsuit (against the banks, or....) in that regard

OR

>>> An attorney working in Thailand who is not afraid to take banks to task. In other words; Banks are in the biz of securing depositors' money. If they don't do that, they're not doing their jobs well enough.

If this clicks, please contact me, thanks.

Sincere good luck but you'll probably only hear crickets versus any serious replies. But hopefully others who may have been successful in recovering lost money will share their circumstances and how they went about getting the money reimbursed as this info could be very helpful for those trying to get reimbursed. I've seen so many ThaiVisa posts regarding folks who say ATMs or banks have ripped them off, but sometimes their details do indeed sound strange. But regardless, consumer protection laws in Thailand (and many other less developed nations) are weak at best. Protect your credit/debit card and ibanking info like the family jewels, which includes being aware of how the family is using the jewels.

[maidu]

I've heard two stories of farang who suffered from ATM rip-offs, and their farang banks reimbursed them for their losses. One was for a Scottish bank (happened in Scotland) and the bank realized their mistake a year later and refunded money PLUS 500 pounds. the other was a rip off of a farang bank's ATM which took place at an ATM in Thailand.

Could you imagine a Thai bank showing responsibility in either of those sorts of scenarios? I couldn't fathom that either. Thai banks won't even notify an account holder if something fishy is going on with an account. Thai banks are like Thai bureaucrats - they do as little as humanly possible, because all they care about is maintaining their jobs and getting security payments when they retire. They won't do anything outside the box, or anything that they don't absolutely have to do.