Youbloodybeauty Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Animals. I find it hard to understand how a cast thing with gold leaf on it can bring good luck or favours. It doesn't mean too much to me but then again I can't think of any material/religous "thing" so important as to take a life. Saying that, my wife points out that I don't "believe" - which I guess is fair? What I do know is that depression is a nasty illness. YBB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxexile Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 find it hard to understand how a cast thing with gold leaf on it can bring good luck or favours maybe the depressed guy had asked this piece of metal for favours in the past (a cure for his depression , some good luck for his family etc) , and his requests were not answered , so he took a hammer to the thing. at the end of the day , a graven image has been destroyed and a human life taken. one can be replaced , one cant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjaak327 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 What are the effects of a broken image? As the image is supposed to embodied the nats of the erawan property, one should be cautious about angry spirts. Actually the shrine was erected to protect the Erawan Hotel, which has been demolished in 1987. Original Erawan Hotel Anyway very sad that the shrine has been vandalised, it's even more sad that the guy paid for it with his life. I sure hope the killers get punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryHacker Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 What are the effects of a broken image? As the image is supposed to embodied the nats of the erawan property, one should be cautious about angry spirts. ....Ok, so how are these angry spirits going to impose their anger to a dead mentally ill muslin man? Give me a break! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikage Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Sacrilige.At least his mental illness has now been permanently cured. You're an idiot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulmercke Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Animals. I find it hard to understand how a cast thing with gold leaf on it can bring good luck or favours. It doesn't mean too much to me but then again I can't think of any material/religous "thing" so important as to take a life. Saying that, my wife points out that I don't "believe" - which I guess is fair? What I do know is that depression is a nasty illness. YBB YBB - got to agree with your posting. And this is a truly shocking case - not just because a "thing" considered of such value and importance to Thais was destroyed, but more importantly because of the senseless slaying of a relatively young man who was seriously ill - by all accounts. There's simply no excuse for that. In the United Kingdom he would have faced a charge of criminal damage; and if he was a first time offender he would almost certainly have avoided a custodial sentence BUT here, I guess, things are different, and "justice" has already been meted out. Incidentally, my wife, who is Thai, agrees with my sentiments about this incident that I expressed in an earlier posting on this thread. This particular case reminds me of another one which was quite similar, when again a mentally ill individual - another young male - was beaten to death in the Chatuchak area a few years ago - in front of the police - by angry by-standers after taking hostage a young student. The difference in this case was that the man had attacked his female hostage before he was jumped upon and beaten to death. (The father of the slain man later explained that several years earlier his son had received a very bad beating which had resulted in a very bad head injury. The son was warned not to drink alcohol as his condition would be exasperated by the alcohol - but he did - and this is believed to have contributed to the fatal situation he eventually found himself in.) Mentally ill individuals, not surprisingly, sometimes can find themselves in precarious, if not life-threatening situations sometimes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Sacrilige. At least his mental illness has now been permanently cured. You're an idiot! Concur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan10400 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 considering the lack of emphasis of due process here in addition to the admiration of the "ceo style" to get things done, the loss of life is not all suprising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 i rather doubt 'ceo style' has anything to do with garbage men being the first on the scene at a religious dessicration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 To those who say it was a bit of metal and stone....To the believers it was not... I went there with my girl after lodging a somewhat shaky Visa application at the VFS....at the time I was feeling quite ill....we both did the offerings at the shrine and our application was approved, My girl claims that it was because we went to the shrine that we got it...As soon as we left the shrine my illness disappeared, my girl said this was because of the visit to the shrine. So she believes it helped us. The point is that many Thais believed it was a highly spiritual place. It is no wonder that the Thais killed this guy considering how the Thais regard the Spirit world. But two wrongs dont make a right and we will never know whether the guy did this because of his illness, his religious views or his illness and religious views combined. Further....the vendors who sell the offerings are right to feel concerned....they may have their livelihood taken away from them by this guys actions...Wouldnt you be concerned if you were in their place ??...It is not just the vendors though is it ??...there are the caretakers of the shrine and the dancers who may also lose their income...amazing how many can suffer from one mans actions. Mental Illness and the treatment of it is a problem in every country in the world, not just in Thailand. Mental illness is not always easy to diagnose and the depth of the illness is not easily recognised. As one poster pointed out...sometimes the mentally dont take the medication or abuse substances that are detrimental to their illness. Sometimes it is other things that make a person flip out. It may not be the fault of the Government or the Mental Health system that this guy did what he did... This act could have been totally out of character for him even with his problems...But of course this would not have happened if he had been locked away in an asylum to protect himself and the community, would it ?? Before anyone blames the Thai System....look at the system in your own country... All in all a very sad situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulmercke Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 To those who say it was a bit of metal and stone....To the believers it was not...I went there with my girl after lodging a somewhat shaky Visa application at the VFS....at the time I was feeling quite ill....we both did the offerings at the shrine and our application was approved, My girl claims that it was because we went to the shrine that we got it...As soon as we left the shrine my illness disappeared, my girl said this was because of the visit to the shrine. So she believes it helped us. The point is that many Thais believed it was a highly spiritual place. It is no wonder that the Thais killed this guy considering how the Thais regard the Spirit world. But two wrongs dont make a right and we will never know whether the guy did this because of his illness, his religious views or his illness and religious views combined. Further....the vendors who sell the offerings are right to feel concerned....they may have their livelihood taken away from them by this guys actions...Wouldnt you be concerned if you were in their place ??...It is not just the vendors though is it ??...there are the caretakers of the shrine and the dancers who may also lose their income...amazing how many can suffer from one mans actions. Mental Illness and the treatment of it is a problem in every country in the world, not just in Thailand. Mental illness is not always easy to diagnose and the depth of the illness is not easily recognised. As one poster pointed out...sometimes the mentally dont take the medication or abuse substances that are detrimental to their illness. Sometimes it is other things that make a person flip out. It may not be the fault of the Government or the Mental Health system that this guy did what he did... This act could have been totally out of character for him even with his problems...But of course this would not have happened if he had been locked away in an asylum to protect himself and the community, would it ?? Before anyone blames the Thai System....look at the system in your own country... All in all a very sad situation Yes, here in Thailand the treatment of mentally ill patients (and facilities for the diagnosis and follow-up psychiatric care) are pitifully inadequate - if non-existant in some places - particularly outside of Bangkok and the main cities. Here in BKK our next door neighbour, a middle aged-elderly Thai woman who has never married and who lives alone, is very obviously ill. She has good days and bad days. Many times the neighbours have called the police, and this New Year even her daughter called the police because she feared her mother would be attacked by irate neighbours. She cooks from morning until late at night almost everyday - incessantly - at the front of her house. She stopped cooking inside, in the kitchen, at the back of the house because of the number of times she forgot what she was doing and subsequently nearly burnt the house down! You would think she was cooking for two hundred people a day judging by the amount of noise and commotion she manages to create! But, alas, she is only cooking for herself. Sad. Most of the food she cooks - she throws away! Again in the United Kingdom she would be under the supervision of a psychiatrist and care workers - if not in a home run by the local authority. They would ensure she took her medication everyday. The problem is that in a lot of cases - the patients fool themselves into thinking they are O.K. when in fact, they're not and stop taking the medication - then sooner or later problems occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gburns57au Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I think you missed my point..... The Mental Health systems in most countries are woefully inadequate...UK, Oz and USA included... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
englishoak Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 It's strange but the only person stating this guy was "menally i'll" so far on record was ...his dad... Ever notice the frequency of the excuse of mental illness in LOS. Depression is not a mental illness that makes you totally crazy.... he obviously decided to do this before leaving his home... if it's accepted as illness then so must th ecrowds be accepted as temporary insanity. I hardly think the reports are likely to read...... Drunk Muslim attacks buddhist shrine. Anyway it *just hapenned* and the killers are no more guilty than the guy who did the destroying of a sacred image. All very very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan10400 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 i rather doubt 'ceo style' has anything to do with garbage men being the first on the scene at a religious dessicration i don't think it does either. the point was, the attitude that it is ok to dispense with 'formalities' and cut through annoyances such as due process and justice, in order to solve a actual/perceived problem. so, yes, nothing to do with garbage men. it could have just as well as been the noodle vendors. they are just as likely to follow by example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sriracha john Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Depression is not a mental illness that makes you totally crazy.... I would strongly encourage you to research the subject more thoroughly then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerryd Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 A few months ago (?) in Pattaya, a drunk farang was caught peeing on a Buddha image in a spirit house. Local moto-taxi drivers beat him quite severely, probably would have killed him if others hadn't intervened. Never heard what happened to any of them afterwards (the Thais or the farang). I remember the farang was upset because afterwards he claimed that he had been wearing a 5 baht gold necklace, which (he claims) disappeared while he was getting the crap kicked out of him. Even the godless communists found out, you can take a person's possessions, you can take their freedom and just about everything else, but you can't take their religion. Attacks against the symbols of almost any religion are likely to provoke immediate wrath, as we have seen in Iraq, India, America and sadly, here in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 People are imposing secular laws on religious matters. Most of the time there are no or little conflicts, but in case of serious sacrilege people won't pay attention to civil laws. The King and the religion is beyond their reach. You are foretting that that image had far more value for his devotees than any ordinary human life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patex Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 What are the effects of a broken image? As the image is supposed to embodied the nats of the erawan property, one should be cautious about angry spirts. ....Ok, so how are these angry spirits going to impose their anger to a dead mentally ill muslin man? Give me a break! That's obvious. The spirit from Pra Prom took posession of the people who killed this poor lad. But than, a stronger spirit or the spirit from Pra Prom was also acting through the crazy guy! I think it was a divine suicide. Patex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Phra Prom is not a spirit, it's the image of Brahma, creator of the Universe. He doesn't need to posess anyone - he knows what's on everybody's minds, he made them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
englishoak Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest endure Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Depression is not a mental illness that makes you totally crazy.... I would strongly encourage you to research the subject more thoroughly then... I think you may be confusing depression with mania. Someone who's clinically depressed very often can't even raise the energy to get out of bed let alone indulge in any physical activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patex Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Phra Prom is not a spirit, it's the image of Brahma, creator of the Universe. He doesn't need to posess anyone - he knows what's on everybody's minds, he made them.Than, it must be Shiva! His dance just started . We are all fukced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 (edited) We are all fukced! We are, indeed. Remember how Democrats broke their Goddess? First they broke the original, and then the replacement as well. No wonder they can't get anywhere near the Government House. Edited March 21, 2006 by Plus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandstone Art Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Agreed that 'One can be replaced' One can't. Of course the statue of Phra Prom can be reproduced.... bigger even. But certainly we do not want to replace one crack nut with another that run about smashing things in the heart of Bangkok city during the night ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plus Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Phra Prom's image was not a statue, it was an image of a Deity and had all the powers of Deity (at least that's what people believe). I don't know what made it so special among thousands of other images, but it was one of a kind and cannot be easily replaced. I suspect is has everything to do with following proper procedures and "installation manuals". Hindu brahmins are the real specialists, but they also have to be qualified themsleves to properly "install" the image. I wonder if the current generation is really upto task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siamesekitty Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Thais are devastated because not only was the Erawan shrine considered extrememly sacred, but it also brought hope. Many came to worship and pray that an issue they were worried about would turn out well. My mother came to pray for a safe delivery and a healthy child; the next day I was born perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 I am sure the Brahmin priests in the King's household are qualified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camerata Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Thais are devastated because not only was the Erawan shrine considered extrememly sacred, but it also brought hope. Many came to worship and pray that an issue they were worried about would turn out well. Perhaps not only hope. Apparently, students go there to ask for help with their exams. It's possible the confidence they get from a visit to the shrine actually helps them to perform better because they're inspired to work harder. My Thai friends tell me that a new image won't be as powerful as the old one simply because it is new. I think this is why the government said they will have the new image made from the pieces of the old one as far as is possible. Already people are saying that Thaksin is like the crazy guy, destroying something sacred and making people feel bad. But like the crazy guy, he can't escape his karma... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 From my understanding of Hinduism ... using the old image at all is not theologically sound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Depression is not a mental illness that makes you totally crazy.... I would strongly encourage you to research the subject more thoroughly then... I think you may be confusing depression with mania. Someone who's clinically depressed very often can't even raise the energy to get out of bed let alone indulge in any physical activity. Yes indeed,Whether manic or psychotic, it was of little consideration when the locals dispatched him, tragic incident all the way around, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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