Still Buy An Old Big-Bike, But Do Be Ultra Careful

[IDL]

It’s a long one guys, but has a huge amount of information to help protect other buyers, in Thailand.

So it started when I saw an advertisement on the internet (2010):

BLA, BLA, BLA…private sale, with GREEN BOOK

I met with (French) owner and had a good look at the machine along with a short
test ride.

Aside from liking the appearance and feel of the bike, the fact that it had a ‘green
registration book’ was the decider in buying it; there were plenty of bigger
and newer bikes available in Thailand, for around the same price, but having
called, none of them had a [real] green book.

NB The book was in a Thai guy’s name as the seller said he never bothered to get
it registered to his name as he wasn’t sure how long he’d be staying…plausible,
in LOS.

Owner accepted my offer and I purchased it on the following Saturday. Also, the
pre-arranged (above standard 3^rd-party) insurance transfer was completed
in time for riding it legally by 1pm on the day.

A few days later, armed with all the correct documentation, I proceeded over to
one of the Department of Land and Transport (DLT) offices in Bangkok. The
extremely helpful & friendly staff surprised me when they said they will
process both the ‘name change’ and ‘province transfer’ at the same time. So
with the application documents completed, stamps bought & attached and with
only the bike’s VIN/serial number to be authenticated, it was almost ready to process.

Having sat in the mechanics bay for around 30 minutes, I was then approached by a ‘senior
official’ of DLT and told that after scrutinizing the bike’s frame and engine
numbers, he concludes that the bike is not actually the bike that originally
belonged to the green book. Horrified, I told him “there must be some mistake,
it all matches perfectly!”

He explained that the prefixed model/type letter/number of LLNN (on my bike)
actually belongs exclusively to another model, and has been changed at some
point. Very concerned, I suggest that perhaps the engine has been changed?
etc…, but the fact of the matter is if that was the case, it should be a new
number, but still prefixed with my model’s letters. Bear in mind I knew [then]
very little about the crafty ways of the grey/black market in this region, not
least to look for manufacturer’s specific codings.

Not knowing what to do, I called the seller and told him the problem; he genuinely appeared
shocked. He contacted the shop he bought it from (two years before), gave me the
number of a woman (daughter of the shop-owning family) and I spoke to her. The [DLT]
‘senior official’ also had a conversation with her; she vowed to get some
answers for him and justify why things had changed from their original state. I
then returned home and used the internet to investigate all what I had been
told – the story over the VIN number was 100% correct.

I managed to find contact details of the previous registered [Thai] owner on the internet
and so my girlfriend called him, armed with a list of questions I had written
down. First and foremost, he said he did previously own a this specific model
and confirmed himself to be the person in the green book that I have. He then
goes on to tell us that he had an accident with the bike, but his insurance company
refused to pay-out for medical expenses because the bike’s VIN/serial numbers
were not real. Another very important thing he informed us of was that he had
bought the bike from the same shop as [my] seller, and then sold it back to them
after the accident.

Later in the evening the seller told me that the shop had further spoken to the DLT ‘senior
official’ and the problem was now fixed. I was instructed to go back [to DLT]
the following morning, collect the authentication document from the ‘senior
official’ and then submit my applications. On arrival, I asked around for the ‘senior
official’ and found him, having his lunch. He kindly took time-out to speak
with me. I said “so everything is OK now? The woman from the shop called you
and explained why the changes were made?”… he replied “I’m sorry, I’ve not
received any calls from anybody regarding this matter. She never called me
back”. So nothing had changed, the
authentication was not granted and my trip was a complete waste of time.

I called the shop and asked what had happened - she didn’t answer why she’d said she’d called, just simply avoided
answering, period! She then said I need to take the bike and green book down to
her and she will get all the
transfers done, down in Pattaya/Chonburi. I had the ‘senior official’ speak to
her again and he said he will inform a [DLT] colleague in Pattaya of the
problem and gave his name as contact.

Tuesday evening my girlfriend also called the shop to confirm that if I bring the bike
all the way down to Pattaya, the whole thing will get sorted, name and province
transfer. She confirmed “YES”.

Wednesday I arrived at the shop around 12:00pm. I met with the woman and asked what will
happen next (I didn’t challenge her again about why she lied because I wanted
the problem fixed). She then said “oh, getting your name changed is very easy,
don’t worry”. “And the transfer to Bangkok?” I asked. “er, ah…what?” she
replied. “I…ah…”. I then told her to stop playing games with me and get this
fixed, like she had told the seller, me and my girlfriend she would. She
responds “but this is not my job, I’m just doing this to take care of my
customers. In fact, my shop has never owned this bike before, we just let the
previous owner ‘park it’ here so that he could sell it. I don’t know anything
about this bike…I’m not responsible for it”. I then mentioned that the seller
said he bought it from her shop. She said he was wrong, he didn’t
understand. I then mentioned the previous [Thai] owner having bought and sold
with her shop, and the insurance not paying out because of the number
changes…she really didn’t know what to say and so just replied “OK, I’ll get it
done.” Low and behold, a few days later she called to say it was all sorted,
and ready for collection. My mate (work colleague), who lived around the corner
from shop, collected the book and brought to me, Monday morning, at work in
Bangkok.

In the coming days I managed to trace the registered [in the book] owner before the
Thai guy, An English woman and living back in UK now. It was slow communication
with her via FB/internet, but she did say she had owned a naked bike (same
engine size) in Pattaya and that she bought it, & sold back to…the same
shop as the Thai guy and [my] seller!

Further communication with her, and the English woman informed me that she only rode it
about 7 times, and owned it for a very short period, before selling it back to the
[same] shop as she couldn’t get the right ‘feel’ (her name as ‘registered owner’
was on the bike for a long period). Further more, and this is very, very
significant, she confirmed that the
bike she owned was a XXXX, not my model. So she sold an XXXX to the shop
and the shop sold a YYYY, with the same ‘green book’, to the Thai guy. Then
bought it back from him and sold it again to [my] seller!!!

…still with me???

Many people may have then given up at that point. One of my [many] issues, is I don’t let
go, once the teeth are firmly in. I then had a meeting with a …er…I guess you’d
call a ‘fixer’. This person [unofficially] acted as a mediator between
civilians and officials (what a country!). After our meeting, we then scheduled
a meeting with some ‘top’ [bKK] BIBs, to use the information I’d documented to
get my money back from the shop; the French guy had already left Thailand.

The BIBs were extremely interested (of course they were-hmmm) and said this will be easy
because of the documented copies (including transcripts of all conversations) I’d
given them…three days later, the ‘fixer’ called and told me the BIBs didn’t
realize, but it’s out of their duristiction! Keeping lips tight right now,
better all-round.

The conclusion: the DLT official (whom I kept close contact with, throughout the
episode) must’ve taken pity on me, noted the lengths I went to to make
everything squeeky-clean, and figured it’s better to have a ‘legal’ bike on the
road [as opposed to an illegal one], so on calling him he agreed he’ll pass the
inspection approval and see that the process goes smoothly.

Next day, I rode out of the DLT office with a brand new green book (in my name) and new [reg]
plate. Have since changed the colour of the bike (and successfully updated the
change in the green book), and now sold it, with zero issues over the transfer.
FYI, I disclosed all the above to new owner.

Be careful out there,
it’s a jungle!!!

[BSJ]

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
Mark Twain

Edited May 14, 2013 by BSJ

[yankee99]

I went to pattaya dlt for a vin check last week. They had a blacklight, they felt to see if the numbers had been rewelded they checked for twenty minutes three guys no less. They finally said all was original. The paper work is now at chonburi.

can you pm me the name of the shop? curious if its the one i am dealing with on 3rd road?

[Salapoo]

Glad it all worked out.

There's a very important lesson to all who read.

You do not hand over cash until all parties are at the DoLT and it has been given the green light for transfer.

[animatic]

Horror story for sure.

I bought 1 Honda chopper here, drove it for 7 years

and sold it privately with green book in my name, no backwash.

I am still friends with the people who sold it to me almost 8!years ago.

Replaced it with a used Harley, but from H-D of Bangkok, no problems.

But many of these little shops are just badly operated and think,

Properly done is not worth the trouble up front.

[JonnyF]

First rule buying any bike (or car) is don't hand over the cash until the book is in your hand, in your name. Show the seller you have the cash but make this condition clear to them before you go to the transport office. Any legit seller will agree, if they start making excuses then walk.

These horror stories are easily avoided with some common sense IMO.

[taninthai]

yep if buying an older bike you go to dlt with the seller and exchange money when books in your name ,if seller makes excuses that he cant come with you ,walk away or run if you like

[tingtongfarang]

Some days ago while at the local recycling place i seen a ducati monster 900 covered in dust in the corner, i asked if it was for sale and does it have a book,

They said 120,000bht but all paper work there...i asked again...does it have a book...they said no book but have all papers...no problem

[IDL]

First rule buying any bike (or car) is don't hand over the cash until the book is in your hand, in your name. Show the seller you have the cash but make this condition clear to them before you go to the transport office. Any legit seller will agree, if they start making excuses then walk.

These horror stories are easily avoided with some common sense IMO.

Thanks for the input, and I can't argue with that (RE: common sense). However, when a book looks real, all numbers match, and a plausible (in LOS) reason for not registering in [sellers] name is what one sees. I think the rest just has to be learnt by experience.

Of course the upshot is that all the incoming advice became standard practice for me, after that experience.

[IDL]

Another note to add: having bought 2 used bikes in the past, and one used car, I never had that issue. Other issues, YEP! But not that one.

[JonnyF]

First rule buying any bike (or car) is don't hand over the cash until the book is in your hand, in your name. Show the seller you have the cash but make this condition clear to them before you go to the transport office. Any legit seller will agree, if they start making excuses then walk.

These horror stories are easily avoided with some common sense IMO.

Thanks for the input, and I can't argue with that (RE: common sense). However, when a book looks real, all numbers match, and a plausible (in LOS) reason for not registering in [sellers] name is what one sees. I think the rest just has to be learnt by experience.

Of course the upshot is that all the incoming advice became standard practice for me, after that experience.

I agree, and sometimes when people see a bike they really want they convince themselves it's all fine just because they want it to be. I wasn't trying to be a smartarse BTW, just offering good advise for people buying second hand bikes, especially imports because there seems to be some myth on ThaiVisa that going anywhere near an imported bike is a recipe for disaster, which simply isn't the case if you do it the right way.

[IDL]

First rule buying any bike (or car) is don't hand over the cash until the book is in your hand, in your name. Show the seller you have the cash but make this condition clear to them before you go to the transport office. Any legit seller will agree, if they start making excuses then walk.

These horror stories are easily avoided with some common sense IMO.

Thanks for the input, and I can't argue with that (RE: common sense). However, when a book looks real, all numbers match, and a plausible (in LOS) reason for not registering in [sellers] name is what one sees. I think the rest just has to be learnt by experience.

Of course the upshot is that all the incoming advice became standard practice for me, after that experience.

I agree, and sometimes when people see a bike they really want they convince themselves it's all fine just because they want it to be. I wasn't trying to be a smartarse BTW, just offering good advise for people buying second hand bikes, especially imports because there seems to be some myth on ThaiVisa that going anywhere near an imported bike is a recipe for disaster, which simply isn't the case if you do it the right way.

All good advice for the newcomer. Spread the word, protect fellow foreigners.

Just highlighting a point within the article: the Thai guy (previous owner) had his insurance company refuse honouring the policy (after his accident), that he thought was valid. Seeing so many [older] big-bikes out there, knowing what I know about the 'issues' of authenticity, I wonder how many buyers/owners actually believe their policy would be honoured, in their hour of need. Worst case scenario: hit a pedestrian and hospitalize them with serious/long-term injuries (regardless of whose fault)...? #2 Collide with a very expensive car...?

My bike had an extra policy with AXA (3rd-party+). Shortly after discovering what I did, I insisted upon a meeting with the branch/president at HQ, and left his office with a letter (from/signed by him) stating AXA will honour the policy, regardless of the new-found information (issues over VIN), as all numbers on bike do match numbers in book, & policy schedule. Big peace of mind for me.

[IDL]

Though I'm new to posting on TV, I have had a few years of viewing.

Hardly a day passes when questions/controversy over green books, registering, etc... are the topic. It might help to have a look at this post. Also I have two other posts ('Be Careful Of The Men Of Their Word' & 'Fee For Selling A Vehicle') that include some direct and/or related information; between the three a lot of questions can be answered.

Stay safe,

[piston broke]

very very wise words IDL - thanks for the heads up....