Solar Panel Home Electricity

[jackflash]

> 650 Watt must be a very small house, or do I understand this wrong.

It's not the size of the house, but how efficient it is.

650 Watts averaged over the day gives me more power than I need.

It runs lighting, small fridge, TV, a computer or two, as well as my electronic workshop.

The big batteries are a help. They allow the storage to be averaged over months rather than days.

Every bit of power collected is saved.

> By the way, is this Thailand ?

no, is in Australia.

[jbrain]

> 650 Watt must be a very small house, or do I understand this wrong.

It's not the size of the house, but how efficient it is.

650 Watts averaged over the day gives me more power than I need.

It runs lighting, small fridge, TV, a computer or two, as well as my electronic workshop.

The big batteries are a help. They allow the storage to be averaged over months rather than days.

Every bit of power collected is saved.

> By the way, is this Thailand ?

no, is in Australia.

Jack, 650 Watt panels may allow you to generate about 500Wh at best on a sunny day, right ? With the appliances you mention in your post above you will need that 500Wh already during day time, I doubt even it would be sufficient, so for sure there is no excess to store in the batteries.

So my guess is that you use grid power as well at the same time.

[David48]

Just got back from the BITEC machinery show.

Drooled all over some nifty tools, but not much solar stuff at all.

But if you want to weld, cut, machine, or beat on metal or plastic (or find someone to do it for you), it's a great show. Runs through tomorrow (May 19)

Forget the machinery ... what were the promotion girls like?

Just like the car shows, except these ladies will talk to you...

Well, I was thinking that maybe you took a few 'machinery' shots and that the odd promotional Lassie got in the way and had to be included in the shot ...

.

[jackflash]

> So my guess is that you use grid power as well at the same time.

No grid power, no generator.

Have been running this setup for many years.

I even use an electric blanket in the winter.

There's no real secret other than using efficiencent appliances and being sensible.

Switch things off when not in use.

> so for sure there is no excess to store in the batteries.

The solar regulator is frequently on "float", eg the batteries are full.

In the early days I would carefully monitor the battery voltage and specific gravity.

These days I basically ignore the sysem and let it take care of itself.

Edited May 18, 2013 by jackflash

[jbrain]

> So my guess is that you use grid power as well at the same time.

No grid power, no generator.

Have been running this setup for many years.

I even use an electric blanket in the winter.

The secret is efficiency and being sensible. Swich of things when not in use.

Jackflash, a 650 Watt panel will have an efficiency of about 500 Watt if lucky. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That mean if you have a sunny day you will be abale to generate 4.5 Kwh a day or 150 Kwh a month. Since you covert through an inverter that will give you an effective 130 Kwh to use?

I don't say it's impossible to live on that amount of electricity but you better don't forget you have eggs boiling on the hot plate.

[jackflash]

> Mains electricity is cheap and you don't have to change batteries every few years.

If you need to change batteries every few years there is something desperately wrong.

- Don't use car batteries, or even the so called "deep cycle" marine batteries. They will die if flattened even a few times, this is what kills batteries.

- use only the proper flooded cell storage batteries.

- make sure the batteries (and charging system) are seriously oversized so the batteries are never fully discharged.

[jbrain]

> Mains electricity is cheap and you don't have to change batteries every few years.

If you need to change batteries every few years there is something desperately wrong.

- Don't use car batteries, or even the so called "deep cycle" marine batteries. They will die if flattened even a few times, this is what kills batteries.

- use only the proper flooded cell storage batteries.

- make sure the batteries (and charging system) are seriously oversized so the batteries are never fully discharged.

I agree with you on that, but how much you estimate would be only the battery set up you have if bought new?

By the way how many Ah your total bank is ?

[jackflash]

> Since you covert through an inverter that will give you an effective 130 Kwh to use?

Much of my gear runs on DC. The 'fridge for instance draws 4 Amps at 12V when it's running.

(and its well insulated, so it runs infrequently).

> but you better don't forget you have eggs boiling on the hot plate.

Of course not. I use LPG for cooking and wood for heating.

[jackflash]

> how much you estimate would be only the battery set up you have if bought new?

It would be a frightful amount. I hate to think. 10's of thousands of dollars.

But a neighbour has recently bought new batteries. They cost him $8K.

They're much smaller than mine, but seem to be working well.

> By the way how many Ah your total bank is ?

From memory 2500 AH at 24 Volt (I'm not at home at present).

I had a choice of buying much larger batteries (eg twice the size), but was worried about the leakage current.

It turns out to be insignificant, so I now wish I had bought the larger ones.

Edited May 18, 2013 by jackflash

[jbrain]

> how much you estimate would be only the battery set up you have if bought new?

It would be a frightful amount. I hate to think. 10's of thousands of dollars.

But a neighbour has recently bought new batteries. They cost him $8K.

They're much smaller than mine, but seem to be working well.

> By the way how many Ah your total bank is ?

From memory 2500 AH at 24 Volt (I'm not at home at present).

I had a choice of buying much larger ones (eg twice the size), but was worried about the leakage current.

It turns out to be insignificant, so I now wish I had bought the larger ones.

So here we get to the point, your neigbour paid ~ 300.000 Baht for his batteries.

At the amount of electricity you can use with your setup ( 150 Kwh/month ) that would account for 50 years of grid electricity. Keep in mind I don't take solar panel, inverter, set up or maintenance in account yet. And you installation my last you 20 years at best, before you will need a complete new installation.

So, if you have no other choice because there is no grid of course, but otherwise solar is a big loser.

[yoslim]

How could solar be cheaper than gov electric produced by burning gas or coal ?

I don't see many solar panels around the big industrial complexes on the seaboard, I guess they would be the first to install solar panels if it were a cheaper source of energy

Edited May 18, 2013 by yoslim

[rotary]

I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement as the coolness can cause the plates to short out. not sure if thats true or not but many people always have a piece of wood under batteries

I wish there was a way to convert Kwai droppings into electricity. We'd have free electric for life.

In regards to the Op's question. It seems he just wants to have electricity in case of black outs. Does anybody know anything about using batteries? I presume they would be trickle charged whilst power is on but I don't know what the outputs are, the length of time they last or the overall viability is of them.

several threads exist on back-up power using inverters and batteries. yes, i am using three sets of inverters.

-two power two pumps which supply water to our home,

-two power my study (lights, computers, routers) and my TV-room (TV, HDD recorders, SAT receivers),

-to power the study of the Mrs (computer, printer/scanner, TV, SAT receiver and HDD recorders).

cost per system approximately 15-18,000 Baht depending on number of batteries. it looks like this:

[Naam]

^ ah yes it is all coming back to me now

the batteries look new though

did you source them in Pattaya? and how much?

batteries are normal truck batteries each 160ah bought in a shop on Pattaya Sukhumvit, 3,400 Baht each.

[Naam]

I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement

as the coolness can cause the plates to short out.

fairy tale!

[jackflash]

> So, if you have no other choice because there is no grid of course, but otherwise solar is a big loser.

But we do have choice. There is grid power at the road, but it would cost about 30K to be connected

We chose to be independent and free of constantly increasing electricity bills and black outs.

My choice not yours.

[Naam]

> Mains electricity is cheap and you don't have to change batteries every few years.

If you need to change batteries every few years there is something desperately wrong.

- Don't use car batteries, or even the so called "deep cycle" marine batteries. They will die if flattened even a few times, this is what kills batteries.

- use only the proper flooded cell storage batteries.

- make sure the batteries (and charging system) are seriously oversized so the batteries are never fully discharged.

two sets of normal truck batteries are now 5½ years old, one set i had to change after 4 years.

[Naam]

> So, if you have no other choice because there is no grid of course, but otherwise solar is a big loser.

But we do have choice. There is grid power at the road, but it would cost about 30K to be connected

We chose to be independent and free of constantly increasing electricity bills and black outs.

My choice not yours.

to each his own. you produce and use 150kWh a month, last month i used an average of 124kWh a day

[jackflash]

> I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement

>> fairy tale!

Actually this is completely true and rather important.

One thing which kills batteries is "stratification" where the electrolyte separates into layers with high SG liquid settling at the bottom and corroding the plates.

This tendency is increased if the battery is placed on a cold surface.

Commercial flooded cells come with an insulating stand. Car batteries are happier sitting on a strip of wood or foam insulation.

The stratification can be broken up by purposefully overcharging (vigorous bubbling) or by physically stirring.

In a vehicle of course they get plenty of agitation.

In submarines each large cell has a pump to circulate the electrolyte and prevent stratification.

[jackflash]

> to each his own. you produce and use 150kWh a month, last month i used an average of 124kWh a day

This is of course is the whole point.

You CAN live on Solar, but you definitely have to change your life style.

Efficiency has it's own rewards

[impulse]

As I see it, household solar today has 3 cost effective markets:

1) People who build a house where connecting to the grid will be extremely expensive because of location.

2) Tree huggers (no slur there, I am one), who want to do what they can to save the planet.

3) People who can't (or don't want to) count on the grid being up all the time, preppers and wealthy 3rd world residents for example.

Other applications are either tax subsidized, or the cost of the installation will take a loooonnng time to pay out (if ever) compared to grid power.

As the price per installed watt goes down, battery technology improves and the cost of traditional energy increases, the equation will change

I consider solar to be like cell phones were back in the '80s when it cost $4000 for the car mounted phone and $1.50 per minute. In fact, it's already like cells in the early '90s when phones were down to the size of bricks and only cost $1,000 (but there were still no unlimited plans) Early adapters pay out the nose, but it will come around. The question is, when, and should I wait?

[impulse]

> I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement

>> fairy tale!

Actually this is completely true and rather important.

One thing which kills batteries is "stratification" where the electrolyte separates into layers with high SG liquid settling at the bottom and corroding the plates.

This tendency is increased if the battery is placed on a cold surface.

Commercial flooded cells come with an insulating stand. Car batteries are happier sitting on a strip of wood or foam insulation.

The stratification can be broken up by purposefully overcharging (vigorous bubbling) or by physically stirring.

In a vehicle of course they get plenty of agitation.

In submarines each large cell has a pump to circulate the electrolyte and prevent stratification.

I can't help but wonder if automatic SLA battery maintenance won't become part of the equation that makes solar economical.

If you use a desulfator, and circulate the acid through a filter occasionally, I suspect the life of a SLA battery can be extended almost indefinitely. Then if the plates can be exchanged without sending the entire battery in for recycling, that would reduce the cost of ownership even more.

Of course, all has its risks dealing with lead and sulfuric acid, and I can't imagine the company brave enough to offer anything like that to the general public given the litigious climate when people hurt themselves doing stupid things. And the materials of construction to handle the acid are typically pretty expensive.

Is there much progress on lithium ion for solar? My Li-Ion electric bike runs as long as my SLA bike, though the battery weighs about 1/4. But the Li-Ion battery cost about 3x what the SLA battery cost per V-A hour.

Edited May 19, 2013 by impulse

[Naam]

> to each his own. you produce and use 150kWh a month, last month i used an average of 124kWh a day

This is of course is the whole point.

You CAN live on Solar, but you definitely have to change your life style.

Efficiency has it's own rewards

the last shirt/suit has no pockets for rewards when they carry you to the graveyard.

[Naam]

As I see it, household solar today has 3 cost effective markets:

1) People who build a house where connecting to the grid will be extremely expensive because of location.

2) Tree huggers (no slur there, I am one), who want to do what they can to save the planet.

3) People who can't (or don't want to) count on the grid being up all the time, preppers and wealthy 3rd world residents for example.

Other applications are either tax subsidized, or the cost of the installation will take a loooonnng time to pay out (if ever) compared to grid power.

As the price per installed watt goes down, battery technology improves and the cost of traditional energy increases, the equation will change

I consider solar to be like cell phones were back in the '80s when it cost $4000 for the car mounted phone and $1.50 per minute. In fact, it's already like cells in the early '90s when phones were down to the size of bricks and only cost $1,000 (but there were still no unlimited plans) Early adapters pay out the nose, but it will come around. The question is, when, and should I wait?

prices for photovoltaic systems have been falling and will still be falling. in some European countries it pays already to install a solar system aided by government subsidies and tempting cash for each kWh fed to the public grid. but... This Is Thailand!

[impulse]

I almost started importing solar panels and inverters from China, but my guy on the USA side was counting on government subsidies to make it work financially.

Basically, there are dozens (or hundreds, it's hard to tell) of installers who lease the systems to homeowners based on the electricity they produce. As the owner of the system, the installer then gets the benefit of the government subsidy.

The installer (my would-be customer) pockets the government rebate which would defray a large portion of his up front costs, then he somehow sells the cash stream from the lease on to the financial markets.

I think the subsidies are still there, but he and I agreed that it wasn't wise to invest millions of his money and my time counting on the government not changing their minds. Without the subsidies, the proposal was a no-go.

To be honest, I also think my guy liked the fact that he had liens on the properties and could probably benefit from foreclosing on the properties if the lease payments stopped. He was a peach of a guy - another reason I stayed away.

[Stefanix]

Efficiency has it's own rewards

Right, and I would say potential savings is just one apsect. I like the idea of being independent and environmentally friendly.

Thanks for the info!

P.S.: With 6 A/C, thin walls and single glas windows, I can forget to come this far in Thailand. A complete re-design of the house would be needed.

Actually I think there should be a law that every place cooled with an A/C should have proper insulation. There is so much energy wasted here.

But laws are meaningless here. Just had to laugh when I read one one Crossy's linked threads saying that appliances with European plugs are not allowed to sell anymore, Thai plugs must be used.

[Tywais]

Posts containing oversize images removed as it makes it difficult to view the topic. Also, they are promoting a business. If you wish to promote than you can contact sales to become a sponsor.

[Crossy]

Just had to laugh when I read one one Crossy's linked threads saying that appliances with European plugs are not allowed to sell anymore, Thai plugs must be used.

Yup, the government backed down on that requirement, but they didn't state a new date for compliance

That said, most of the new stuff I've bought recently has has the TIS compliant plug.

[Crossy]

A post discussing moderation has been removed.

[Feesbay John]

If you already have the mains electric WHY do you want a battery bank, as a back up OK BUT to run items in your home would not be cost effective. Solar with a GRID TIE inverter is all you need. The GRID TIE turns your meter backwards for you to use at night. That is if you have enough panels to power what you use in the day time.

[Crossy]

Yup John absolutely.

Could get the payback period sub 10 years even without a sensible power buy-back policy in place.