Solar Panel Home Electricity

[Feesbay John]

Yup John absolutely.

Could get the payback period sub 10 years even without a sensible power buy-back policy in place.

In the UK the solar rate is around 3.5 times the watts you have per day, Here in Thailand it's around 5.5 times the watts you have. So if you install 10 Solar Panels at 280w per panel you would have 2.8 kw

(2800w) times by 5.5 on average 15.4kw per day. X 30 days = 462kw per month (46,200watts)

Depending on if you install the solar which will keep the cost down the return could be only 8 years ))))

[jbrain]

Yup John absolutely.

Could get the payback period sub 10 years even without a sensible power buy-back policy in place.

In the UK the solar rate is around 3.5 times the watts you have per day, Here in Thailand it's around 5.5 times the watts you have. So if you install 10 Solar Panels at 280w per panel you would have 2.8 kw

(2800w) times by 5.5 on average 15.4kw per day. X 30 days = 462kw per month (46,200watts)

Depending on if you install the solar which will keep the cost down the return could be only 8 years ))))

In this thread there was a question to you to post some information about the registration process to the payback policy. Unfortunately you didn't return to the thread for obvious reasons.

However there was another poster in the knowledge who explained that they didn't allow private users to sell back their energy anymore.

Maybe things have changed in the mean time and you can now provide some more info regarding this subject.

[Feesbay John]

Yup John absolutely.

Could get the payback period sub 10 years even without a sensible power buy-back policy in place.

In the UK the solar rate is around 3.5 times the watts you have per day, Here in Thailand it's around 5.5 times the watts you have. So if you install 10 Solar Panels at 280w per panel you would have 2.8 kw

(2800w) times by 5.5 on average 15.4kw per day. X 30 days = 462kw per month (46,200watts)

Depending on if you install the solar which will keep the cost down the return could be only 8 years ))))

In this thread there was a question to you to post some information about the registration process to the payback policy. Unfortunately you didn't return to the thread for obvious reasons.

However there was another poster in the knowledge who explained that they didn't allow private users to sell back their energy anymore.

Maybe things have changed in the mean time and you can now provide some more info regarding this subject.

( for obvious reasons ) Is why I never give info away and It all depends on your area you live.

[jbrain]

Yup John absolutely.

Could get the payback period sub 10 years even without a sensible power buy-back policy in place.

In the UK the solar rate is around 3.5 times the watts you have per day, Here in Thailand it's around 5.5 times the watts you have. So if you install 10 Solar Panels at 280w per panel you would have 2.8 kw

(2800w) times by 5.5 on average 15.4kw per day. X 30 days = 462kw per month (46,200watts)

Depending on if you install the solar which will keep the cost down the return could be only 8 years ))))

In this thread there was a question to you to post some information about the registration process to the payback policy. Unfortunately you didn't return to the thread for obvious reasons.

However there was another poster in the knowledge who explained that they didn't allow private users to sell back their energy anymore.

Maybe things have changed in the mean time and you can now provide some more info regarding this subject.

( for obvious reasons ) Is why I never give info away and It all depends on your area you live.

So you don't give info that can benefit TV members if it doesn't benefit you ?

I think I saw a post with a similar context earlier in this thread, but it's gonne

[Ranched]

If you already have the mains electric WHY do you want a battery bank, as a back up OK BUT to run items in your home would not be cost effective. Solar with a GRID TIE inverter is all you need. The GRID TIE turns your meter backwards for you to use at night. That is if you have enough panels to power what you use in the day time.

It should be noted that utility-interactive/grid-tie inverters wouldn't be any help in blackouts. They're specifically designed to shut down when there's a blackout in order to prevent power that's being produced from the solar array from being fed back onto the grid. This is done so repairmen don't get electrocuted when working on lines that wouldn't otherwise be live. I'd hope they have the same safety mechanism on solar inverters available in Thailand. Stand-alone (battery-based) or bimodal (works as grid-tied and stand-alone) inverters can still provide power during a blackout and both require battery banks.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Ranched

[Travelman868]

I wish there was a way to convert Kwai droppings into electricity. We'd have free electric for life.

In regards to the Op's question. It seems he just wants to have electricity in case of black outs. Does anybody know anything about using batteries? I presume they would be trickle charged whilst power is on but I don't know what the outputs are, the length of time they last or the overall viability is of them.

several threads exist on back-up power using inverters and batteries. yes, i am using three sets of inverters.

-two power two pumps which supply water to our home,

-two power my study (lights, computers, routers) and my TV-room (TV, HDD recorders, SAT receivers),

-to power the study of the Mrs (computer, printer/scanner, TV, SAT receiver and HDD recorders).

cost per system approximately 15-18,000 Baht depending on number of batteries. it looks like this:

I'm confused why would you want 3 invertors?? A decent size battery bank and 1 good invertor will do the job after all it's

the batteries that store the power, the invertor just goes from 12v DC to 220v AC.

Ps If you have all this equipment, adding solar panels is the cheap part.

[Travelman868]

> I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement

>> fairy tale!

Actually this is completely true and rather important.

One thing which kills batteries is "stratification" where the electrolyte separates into layers with high SG liquid settling at the bottom and corroding the plates.

This tendency is increased if the battery is placed on a cold surface.

Without going to silly expence

Commercial flooded cells come with an insulating stand. Car batteries are happier sitting on a strip of wood or foam insulation.

The stratification can be broken up by purposefully overcharging (vigorous bubbling) or by physically stirring.

In a vehicle of course they get plenty of agitation.

In submarines each large cell has a pump to circulate the electrolyte and prevent stratification.

I can't help but wonder if automatic SLA battery maintenance won't become part of the equation that makes solar economical.

If you use a desulfator, and circulate the acid through a filter occasionally, I suspect the life of a SLA battery can be extended almost indefinitely. Then if the plates can be exchanged without sending the entire battery in for recycling, that would reduce the cost of ownership even more.

Of course, all has its risks dealing with lead and sulfuric acid, and I can't imagine the company brave enough to offer anything like that to the general public given the litigious climate when people hurt themselves doing stupid things. And the materials of construction to handle the acid are typically pretty expensive.

Is there much progress on lithium ion for solar? My Li-Ion electric bike runs as long as my SLA bike, though the battery weighs about 1/4. But the Li-Ion battery cost about 3x what the SLA battery cost per V-A hour.

What is required for solar systems are deep discharge batteries, these allow far more of the power to be used

without damaging the battery.

Normally used in boats and motorhomes. Car type batteries are not good, as they will be damaged too easily

[Naam]

I'm confused why would you want 3 invertors?? A decent size battery bank and 1 good invertor will do the job after all it's

the batteries that store the power, the invertor just goes from 12v DC to 220v AC.

Ps If you have all this equipment, adding solar panels is the cheap part.

-the three locations are far apart from each other. distance between the three systems 25 and 30 meters. using one system would require extensive wiring.

-inverter capacities are 2000W, 2000W and 3000W (24Volts)

-additional inverter capacity as back-up 3000W, 3000W and 3000W (12Volts)

do you have any idea how much a 7kW respectively a 9kW inverter is? the cost increases exponentially!

the same goes for the installation of an adequate solar panel system which is still bloody expensive and by far not reliable when compared to the cheap grid power which charges my batteries.

[Naam]

Car type batteries are not good, as they will be damaged too easily

if you would read all postings you wouldn't make unqualified remarks. the batteries

of two of my systems are 5½ years old. regular truck batteries, acid % and water

contents checked twice a month.

[Feesbay John]

If you already have the mains electric WHY do you want a battery bank, as a back up OK BUT to run items in your home would not be cost effective. Solar with a GRID TIE inverter is all you need. The GRID TIE turns your meter backwards for you to use at night. That is if you have enough panels to power what you use in the day time.

It should be noted that utility-interactive/grid-tie inverters wouldn't be any help in blackouts. They're specifically designed to shut down when there's a blackout in order to prevent power that's being produced from the solar array from being fed back onto the grid. This is done so repairmen don't get electrocuted when working on lines that wouldn't otherwise be live. I'd hope they have the same safety mechanism on solar inverters available in Thailand. Stand-alone (battery-based) or bimodal (works as grid-tied and stand-alone) inverters can still provide power during a blackout and both require battery banks.

It is law here in Thailand to have the same shut down as in Europe.

[Forkinhades]

That's got to be a joke in this anarchic society

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[David48]

Firstly, I'm a fan of Solar ... when it has a Government subsidy and I can feed

my excess generation back into the grid. I have them and they are brilliant

when I travel overseas for months at a time and they actually generate a

small income ... so I'm a fan.

However, if you are using Solar as a backup for the times when the grid is down

... why not use a generator form a pure cost perspective?

[Naam]

Firstly, I'm a fan of Solar ... when it has a Government subsidy and I can feed

my excess generation back into the grid. I have them and they are brilliant

when I travel overseas for months at a time and they actually generate a

small income ... so I'm a fan.

However, if you are using Solar as a backup for the times when the grid is down

... why not use a generator form a pure cost perspective?

all depends on the definition of "grid down" David. in my specific case it means

most of the time that one or two of the three phases are either down or shut

down by an installed gadget when the voltage drops >10% to protect starter

relays. these down times can last for a few minutes up to two hours.

when this happens my inverter/batterie back-ups take over on the fly. neither

computers nor TVs flicker and the pressured water supply to the home is

not affected. in this case using a generator would be a real pain in the àss

except when it is a bloody expensive setup with automatic switching. but even

then computers would reboot.

[David48]

Hey Naam ... I understand the thrust of your argument.

Everyone's circumstances are different and in your case,

it makes perfect economic sense (and economic insurance)

to have your set-up.

My situation is the Farm where the brownouts come from the

Farm Father using the welder ... it's amazing how quickly the

fan slows. But he just spot welds Farm machinery so the drops

are temporary lasting just seconds.

I'm thinking more of the domestic situation where it's single phase with

no vital machinery, maybe closer to a Rural situation where black-outs

supply failure is more then an annual occurrence and simply wants something

to run the fridge, the TV (not a plasma monster) and a few lights and

maybe a water pump on demand.

Just thought a simply genny would be better. Run a lead to the fridge

and TV and wait patiently.

BTW ... the Farm doesn't bother with any back-up.

EDIT argument ... not agreement ...

.

Edited May 20, 2013 by David48

[Crossy]

Naam, David.

You are both right, technology needs a UPS function, long blackouts need a genset (or impossibly large batteries).

If you have technology and the potential for long blackouts you need both, which is what we do, UPS keeps the lights on and the technology running until I can be bothered to start the genset

[connda]

I'm thinking more along the lines of what if we go off grid for an extended period of time. What self-contained, electrical generating solutions are available. By "self-contained" I mean systems that do not rely on things like fossil fuels.

Im looking into solar systems as well and trying to source panels etc. I think your right in thinking about circumstances that could lead to extended blackouts and so on.

If you get some info, please post it here or PM me as I am extremely interested in developing this further.

Sorry. For some reason I couldn't post to my own thread. Go figure.

Yep! I'm looking for a system for extended blackouts.

[impulse]

> I have always heard it is not good to place a battery on cement

>> fairy tale!

Actually this is completely true and rather important.

One thing which kills batteries is "stratification" where the electrolyte separates into layers with high SG liquid settling at the bottom and corroding the plates.

This tendency is increased if the battery is placed on a cold surface.

Without going to silly expence

Commercial flooded cells come with an insulating stand. Car batteries are happier sitting on a strip of wood or foam insulation.

The stratification can be broken up by purposefully overcharging (vigorous bubbling) or by physically stirring.

In a vehicle of course they get plenty of agitation.

In submarines each large cell has a pump to circulate the electrolyte and prevent stratification.

I can't help but wonder if automatic SLA battery maintenance won't become part of the equation that makes solar economical.

If you use a desulfator, and circulate the acid through a filter occasionally, I suspect the life of a SLA battery can be extended almost indefinitely. Then if the plates can be exchanged without sending the entire battery in for recycling, that would reduce the cost of ownership even more.

Of course, all has its risks dealing with lead and sulfuric acid, and I can't imagine the company brave enough to offer anything like that to the general public given the litigious climate when people hurt themselves doing stupid things. And the materials of construction to handle the acid are typically pretty expensive.

Is there much progress on lithium ion for solar? My Li-Ion electric bike runs as long as my SLA bike, though the battery weighs about 1/4. But the Li-Ion battery cost about 3x what the SLA battery cost per V-A hour.

What is required for solar systems are deep discharge batteries, these allow far more of the power to be used

without damaging the battery.

Normally used in boats and motorhomes. Car type batteries are not good, as they will be damaged too easily

But even deep cycle batteries could benefit if the acid could be circulated and filtered. I used to have to replace my boat deep cycle batteries every 2-3 seasons, despite keeping them topped up and never letting them get run down. On a boat, they're such a small part of total operating expense that it was no big deal. My electric bicycle goes through a set every 12-18 months- at a cost of about $150 for 4 of them- again- no big deal. But in a power system, the cost of replacement can make or break the economics. Like Naam, I think maintenance is part of the longevity solution.

Another consideration is that boat, forklift and car batteries have to be built to take shocks that a permanently mounted system would never see. Seems like someone could leverage that and come up with a reasonable battery and maintenance system that could desufate the cells, and circulate and filter the acid to extend useful life. Or maybe they're out there already. I'm still interested in solar, but lost touch with the market when we made the decision to not import them.

BTW, what's the current rule of thumb cost for a basic (nothing fancy like reselling to the grid) household grade system on a per installed kW basis, including panels, inverters, and batteries?

Edited May 21, 2013 by impulse

[Naam]

Solar Photovoltaic System Companies in Thailand

http://www.posharp.com/solar-photovoltaic-system-companies-in-thailand_renewable.aspx?ptype=solar_solar-electric_pv-system&gtype=country_TH

[slapout]

I was watching a History or Discovery program the other night. They were interviewing a "plan for the worst" family who mentioned their solar power set up for their farm/house cost 90,000 US. Besides suppling all of their needs they sold back on the grid up to 6000 dollars per year. It does seem that they may eventually get a system on the market that would pay off in a reasonable time frame.

[IMA_FARANG]

Yes it would be possible. but it would be expensive.

Back in 1985 (yes the ancient days) I was one of the techs maintaining a remote UHF radio repeater system in the desert of Saudi Arabia.

We ran 4 UHF repeaters for the Saudi Air Force, Nearest mains electricity was at least 30 Km away.

We used two solar panels, a 12 volt 24 battery rack mount, an inverter/regulator, and an auto-start backup generator to top up the system batteries if for some reason the system voltage dropped low.

The system gave communication access to a remote area bombing practice range for the Saudi Air Force.

At that time such a system cost $500K plus, but the Saudis had oil money, so they didn't really care about what it cost.

Because of the distance then, our system in Saudi was completely of the mains power grid.

Something similar would be possible in a remote area of Thailand. but it would be VERY expensive even today.

And it requires a lot of maintenance, including cleaning the solar panels ( in Saudi cleaning off that damned fine wind-blown sand that covered them regularly).

[David48]

I was watching a History or Discovery program the other night. They were interviewing a "plan for the worst" family who mentioned their solar power set up for their farm/house cost 90,000 US. Besides suppling all of their needs they sold back on the grid up to 6000 dollars per year. It does seem that they may eventually get a system on the market that would pay off in a reasonable time frame.

Now, these are on my place in a Western country ...

Bought 1.5 kw system, paid $2,500 with help from a government subsidy.

We buy the electrics @ 25cents/kwh and sell back into the system @50cents/kwh.

Had I know that ALL the electricity was credited at @50cents/kwh (not just the excess amount) I would have bought a bigger system! I'm in Thailand a good part of the year, so a lot of the time it just sits there as a generator ...

That 50cents/kwh has now been slashed but I'm still covered ...

Payback period at these rates is under 5 years.

... and I'm a happy camper.

[bbradsby]

The OP is asking for Solar systems, not battery back-up systems. One of my clients had to spend a few hundred thou to run electricity to his property. So at some point in the calculus, solar begins to make economic sense between distance to Grid, PV system cost and break-even point in years.

[Naam]

The OP is asking for Solar systems, not battery back-up systems. One of my clients had to spend a few hundred thou to run electricity to his property. So at some point in the calculus, solar begins to make economic sense between distance to Grid, PV system cost and break-even point in years.

the OP did not rule out listening to alternatives. he also did not mention any reasons, e.g. spending a few hundred thousand to get a grid connection.

[bbradsby]

The OP is asking for Solar systems, not battery back-up systems. One of my clients had to spend a few hundred thou to run electricity to his property. So at some point in the calculus, solar begins to make economic sense between distance to Grid, PV system cost and break-even point in years.

the OP did not rule out listening to alternatives. he also did not mention any reasons, e.g. spending a few hundred thousand to get a grid connection.

ya sure, ubetcha... but the subject of the thread is pretty clear. FWIW, I'd recommend a different thread on UPS/battery back-up/Inverter set-ups, so people who are actually seeking that setup can find it easier.

[impulse]

June 5 thru June 8 at BITEC:

Renewable Energy Asia 2013

South East Asia’s Renewable Energy Technology Exhibition and Conference

Could be worth a visit...

www.renewableenergy-asia.com

[impulse]

Interesting stuff...

http://www.treehugger.com/slideshows/energy-efficiency/all-solar-efficiency-breakthroughs-single-chart/

Expanded chart...

http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/images/efficiency_chart.jpg

[PoodMaiDai]

With the cheapness of thai electricity why would solar be better?

So it stays on.

[impulse]

Reminder: Several solar outfits exhibiting at BITEC Renewables Exhibition, which goes on through today.

[jbrain]

Reminder: Several solar outfits exhibiting at BITEC Renewables Exhibition, which goes on through today.

Wonderful Thai style website for the event, where there are no opening an closing hours listed.