How Can Cm Establish A Bicycle Path Network Throughout The City?

JomtienEats · May 20, 2013

And really, what I was wondering when I posted this topic was how CM CAN have a bike path network

Your first step might be to find some people who think its a good idea too, or to convince those who don't.

I assume that's what you're trying to do here. You're oblivious to it, but the audience is sympathetic to the idea. Nearly everyone would like to see it . . but you can't expect someone to pick up your ball and run with it if they don't believe it is realistic. You need to convince them. Insinuating that people who disagree with you are racist and mischaracterizing what they are saying . . . well that's not helpful to your idea either.

OldChinaHam · May 20, 2013

JE, I agree with you. Best to stay on topic.

junglechef · May 20, 2013

"In short you have a great idea but pie in the sky always looks good."

Sometimes, HD, I think it is fortunate that I never aspired to become a politician.

Regarding what you say about identifying good bike paths, I have not yet tried it in a serious way, but it might be instructive to use the Google maps bike path function and see how it is done in Taipei, in order to see how it might be done here. You can actually follow the camera as it travels down the many bike paths in that city. Quite beautiful and a pleasant diversion for the couch potato like me, actually.

If they had bike paths in Chiang Mai, I would use them for walking before I could ride. But I think I might find myself wishing to buy a bike for myself, too.

Exactly my point, they would be used (abused) by everyone for their own selfish purposes

Edited May 20, 2013 by junglechef

junglechef · May 20, 2013

Thank you, Junglechef. If I am not completely mistaken, the photo that you show looks like it is taken by a park which is a reclaimed area which was once filled with old one room houses and has now been turned into quite a lovely area in the middle of town. There are not many of these areas in Taipei and the ones that do exist are small. CM is very fortunate to have a good climate and relatively clean air, at least it is very good compared to what you will find in some other countries in the region.

If you are able to get out to do mountain biking or biking outside the city, this is very good. But it is the convenience of being able to hop on a bike and go within 5 minutes of where one lives that can make this much more accessible and usable to people who live in Chiang Mai.

Having to pack up the car to drive bikes to ride is not what most people would prefer to do.

The pic from from Jotien Eats link. Your points just repeat mine while ignoring what I'm trying to say which is one is able to just go out for a nice bike ride here. I know it is a bit hairy in the city and I only do when I have to drop off my car in the city for repairs and cycle around while I wait for it to be finished but I wouldn't play kickball in most streets either as I did when I was a kid. The convenience of living in a city comes with inconveniences too, one can't always have it all.

I'm all for anything that promotes biking but also like to deal with the realites and stop only thinking about what could be and enjoy what is. I think a bike network would be a wonderful gift for the ppl. of CM but just a not very well thought out one.

Edited May 20, 2013 by junglechef

OldChinaHam · May 20, 2013

"Exactly my point, they would be used (abused) by everyone for their own selfish purposes"

Please do not worry, Junglechef. I WOULD obey the rules. If the rules stated no walking, running on bike paths, then I would not. However, it is perfectly legal, and within the rules, and encouraged to have people walk on the bike paths in some places in Taipei. If this is wrong, then shame on them I say.

Edited May 20, 2013 by OldChinaHam

junglechef · May 20, 2013

Makes no sense as I'd be afraid to run over someone going for a stroll just as I worry about hitting a cyclist with my truck who is riding down the middle of a major road which I occasionally see here. I'm not talking about the old ladies in my neighborhood who cycle for transport to the temple and market who have always done so and all the villagers give them the right of way as it is part of the way things are out in the countryside. But then again when I see ppl. running down a busy sidewalk makes me wonder why they don't find a suitable place to do their thing.

OldChinaHam · May 20, 2013

" I think a bike network would be a wonderful gift for the ppl. of CM but just a not very well thought out one."

Sooner or later, it will get thought out the right way, I am sure.

And and if this is true, then we might as well think it out sooner.

There is another issue which could change the equation fairly radically, and that would be if/when we experience a transportation related energy crisis. If fuel for cars were to dramatically rise, then electrics and cycling will become much more common.

In addition to cycling, the rapid move to electrics has been really noticeable in Taiwan during the past 3 or 4 years with, I think, 3 makers that are doing great business (selling like hotcakes they are). One major supplier is Giant, of course, with both a pedal/electric and an all electric version. Very good range. I have never used one but the girls all look nice on them. This should be encouraged in Chiang Mai as quickly as possible.

junglechef · May 20, 2013

There was a guy with a shop w/very cool looking electric bicycles for sale in Big C but the shop didn't last long. I'm understand your just throwing around ideas, alway a good start in getting something accomplished, but don't be sensitive to the truth. If it is going to happen one day it needs a more realistic approach.

OldChinaHam · May 20, 2013

"but don't be sensitive to the truth."

You mean do not try to buck the laws of thermodynamics?

hellodolly · May 20, 2013

"In short you have a great idea but pie in the sky always looks good."

Sometimes, HD, I think it is fortunate that I never aspired to become a politician.

Regarding what you say about identifying good bike paths, I have not yet tried it in a serious way, but it might be instructive to use the Google maps bike path function and see how it is done in Taipei, in order to see how it might be done here. You can actually follow the camera as it travels down the many bike paths in that city. Quite beautiful and a pleasant diversion for the couch potato like me, actually.

If they had bike paths in Chiang Mai, I would use them for walking before I could ride. But I think I might find myself wishing to buy a bike for myself, too.

As far as I am concerned a good bike path would not be a part of the road. If being a part of the road is a good bike path I guess they can be found all over Chiang Mai. I don't really know.

I do know there is one on Loi Kroh rd. It is so good that most people don't realize it is there and just ride in the street which is about the same as riding on the bike path there.

I would love to see all those bike riders Sunday morning riding up Loi Kroh just in the bike path. As I said earlier to do a proper job you would have to knock all the buildings down on one side of the road. You could then put in a proper width road with an eye to the future build parking garages establish a bike path and side walk separate from the road way. Maybe with parking in Between the road and the bike path and side walk.

This of course brings up relocating business. For many of the side walk venders this is there livelihood. Many stores relied on sidewalk space. When the original buildings were built they in no way expected Chiang Mai to get this big. They need a bigger building or a wider sidewalk.

You go on and on about China and Taipei. Many of those cities with wonderful bike paths in China are newly built and nearly empty. I have never been to Taipei but I would be willing to guess that the bike paths were incorporated into the new areas of the city as it grew up and if they have them in the old city they are on a par with the one on Loi Kroh.

I don't know who said it one of the earlier posters but one way streets might help. Even if they do they will pnly be a short term answer as Chiang Mai is growing.

I really think until they can come up with a viable idea for a rapid transit involving tons and tons of money and put it into use things will not get any better for the bike riders. The only thing the city can do is make all new projects take them into consideration. Highly doubtful they don't even make them take parking and pedestrians into consideration.

Pie in the sky looks just so yummy but so hard to get.

I am not a bike hater just being realistic about doing a proper job of it. If it ever gets done right I would use it my self but then again I am 71 and only have 30 years left.

hellodolly · May 20, 2013

Yes, Tropico, but my question is how do cars drive onto a properly designed and constructed bike path? There are barriers and gates which should be designed to separate the bikes from the cars and motorcycles and motobai to keep out the ones you don't want.

The same case you mention is true in other countries - people with motorbikes available will ride them to go 50 meters or less. If they needed to use the foot pedal to start them rather than using the electric starter motor, then they might think twice. Man is naturally a slothful animal it sometimes seems, or at least is often unthinking. But again, the project can be made successful if there is the motivation and the exchange of like views.

I am with you on this and I would be more than happy to have proper facilities but I feel it is almost an utopia in CM. Many of the roads are too small to have space for a bike lane. But they could definitely do it where there is enough space. Or they could develop a series of parks around CM and connect them via park connectors like in Singapore. (I understand this is not Singapore but can learn from it)

CM and its population is growing, traffic congestion is going to be worse and to be honest if more people would use bicycles it would be good, and if they would stay on their paths, car and motorbike drivers won't feel so annoyed and vice versa!

I ride my bike as transportation vehicle and for sport. I love cycling and I would love to see many more people on bicycles and less cars. Roads were not made only for cars and motorbikes but many people think so! Everybody driving or riding on roads should just exercise a bit more responsibility, follow the rules, and be more kind, something that I do not see here and many other places.

I see you ride your bike as a transportation vehicle and for sport.

I really don't get around the city that much and when I am out there I am walking and not really paying attention to the roads other than when I cross them.

Can you tell me is there a lot of bike lanes in Chiang Mai and are they safer to ride in than the same street with out them would be? Also are they connected in any way to another one?

OldChinaHam · May 20, 2013

"If it ever gets done right I would use it my self but then again I am 71 and only have 30 years left."

You know? I really do not believe I would have guessed it looking at your Avatar.

DeeMaiDee · May 20, 2013

Elevated Bicycle Lanes... There's a solution the politicians would embrace heartily... Let's ride..

MESmith · May 20, 2013

Elevated Bicycle Lanes... There's a solution the politicians would embrace heartily... Let's ride..

Hopefully, constructed to a better standard than the suspension bridge near Ayutthaya

2 ideas for cycle routes here. One around the moat, with cycle bridges over the u-turns with maybe cycle lane in some places built out over the moat. Another route along either side of the river. Next time they dredge they could build up embankments where properties extend down to the river. This could be extended north & south of the city as far as possible.

These are only ideas thrown into the mix. Not investigated how they could work out. Spent less than a minute on them so far

dundas · May 20, 2013

I have seen quite a few Thai cyclists on the road up to Doi Suthep.I've even had some overtake me on the ride back down the hill, when I've been riding my motorsai ... I imagine there is a small group of cycle riders who would be enthusiastic supporters of any proposal for cycling paths.

I had a bicycle for a while here but found that eg, lane merging around the moat was a somewhat harrowing process even though most drivers were reasonably accommodating. I never noticed any bicycle lanes to speak of. In the end I switched to riding motorcycles because it's easier to keep up with the traffic, and also not as hot.

My home town is Melbourne which has around 700 km of bicycle trails, most of them through parks, and separated from the road system etc. There are issues (eg, aggressive cyclists mixing it with pedestrians) as most of the bicycle paths are shared but besides offering safe commuter paths, the bicycle path system creates another Melbourne where you can explore aspects of the city you would never see from the road.

Many city office buidings now offer bicycle parking and showers as an inducement to tenants and bicycle paths are also being built alongside (not sharing) new freeways. You can also put your bike on the train, and access the bicycle paths from quite a few railway stations. I guess you could say cycling has become an integral part of the infrastructure of the city.

It all started from a low base, and just keeps growing. Maybe like Taipei.

And accolades to you, OCH, for introducing the topic and being so persistent.

CobraSnakeNecktie · May 20, 2013

These Kleptocrats don't do things because it's right or smart.. They do things because they can get rich or powerful.

In theory anyway a fee based elevated cycling/pedestrian could rake in some serious revenues. Especially as planners destroy safety at the ground level then demand will increase to avoid it.

It could be their cash cow. Elevated would be the only way to prevent unauthorized users and charge riders. They could even charge something like 5K baht a year. Smaller fees for short term visitors.

BKK and or some international development funds might be available to sweeten the skimming potential.

Lots of elevated easements are available. Moat, Canals, over sidewalks and even some roads. We aren't talking about a lot of width. 3 to 5 meters would be decent and wider in some confluence/park/gathering areas.

Of course if something can be screwed then CM bureaucrats can wreck beyond any value.

Fun topic to contemplate. I just capitulate any interest in riding in town and love my rides up in the mountains.

vagabond48 · May 20, 2013

Perhaps I missed one of the comments but there are/were bicycle lanes around and near the old city. I was part of the Sunday Bicycle Club that helped posted the signs around town. The lanes around the moat was abandoned over a year ago. The other lanes are barely visible. Until last year, I exclusively traveled around CM by bicycle. It was rare to see a Thai bicycle rider using the lanes probably because the everyone ignored the marked lanes. I especially loved the few lanes that went against traffic. They were lots of fun especially during rush hour. I used to play chicken with oncoming traffic. Luckily the drivers always avoided me. Being a bicyclist and a former bicycle messenger from NYC, riding around cities in Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and China was a piece of cake but the average rider might have a tough time.

Edited May 20, 2013 by vagabond48

uptheos · May 20, 2013

I like cycling, but after one trip into the city, never again. The traffic exhaust fumes were awful.

When I go out on my bike, I truck it to the edge of the valley & enjoy quiet, traffic free cycling in rural environment. Don't even ride where I live in the ricefields - flat, hot & boring.

Do you find it hard balancing your bike along those narrow paths in the rice fields?

tropico · May 21, 2013

Yes, Tropico, but my question is how do cars drive onto a properly designed and constructed bike path? There are barriers and gates which should be designed to separate the bikes from the cars and motorcycles and motobai to keep out the ones you don't want.

The same case you mention is true in other countries - people with motorbikes available will ride them to go 50 meters or less. If they needed to use the foot pedal to start them rather than using the electric starter motor, then they might think twice. Man is naturally a slothful animal it sometimes seems, or at least is often unthinking. But again, the project can be made successful if there is the motivation and the exchange of like views.

I am with you on this and I would be more than happy to have proper facilities but I feel it is almost an utopia in CM. Many of the roads are too small to have space for a bike lane. But they could definitely do it where there is enough space. Or they could develop a series of parks around CM and connect them via park connectors like in Singapore. (I understand this is not Singapore but can learn from it)

CM and its population is growing, traffic congestion is going to be worse and to be honest if more people would use bicycles it would be good, and if they would stay on their paths, car and motorbike drivers won't feel so annoyed and vice versa!

I ride my bike as transportation vehicle and for sport. I love cycling and I would love to see many more people on bicycles and less cars. Roads were not made only for cars and motorbikes but many people think so! Everybody driving or riding on roads should just exercise a bit more responsibility, follow the rules, and be more kind, something that I do not see here and many other places.

I see you ride your bike as a transportation vehicle and for sport.

I really don't get around the city that much and when I am out there I am walking and not really paying attention to the roads other than when I cross them.

Can you tell me is there a lot of bike lanes in Chiang Mai and are they safer to ride in than the same street with out them would be? Also are they connected in any way to another one?

Hi Hellodolly

To be honest the only bike lane that I saw is the one around the moat, on the inside of it, but as I said cars park on it.

I usually go to doi suthep and outside the city, maybe on the outer ring road or canal road where there is a bit more space and less traffic.

CM is not a cyclist friendly place but eventually it would have to change, I hope.

Yesterday I was cycling with my daughter (both on one bike) and keeping very left but a truck almost hit me with the side mirror......it must have been pretty close!!!!.

Drivers are very irresponsible and bike lanes would be just a nice addition to the city and a glimpse of development. CM cannot remain the same while the number of people and cars augment every year. Some modern solutions are needed to avoid the worst traffic, pollution, accidents etc.

PaPiPuPePo · May 21, 2013

OCH, I also appreciate your polite persistance, especially in the face of the usual "it ain't gonna happen" near-apathy of most people. Highonthai is a good example of it. I lived in Taipei way back in the day and it was not a place you'd want to ride a bike. I heard that at the time there were 1/2 million registered motorbikes in the city, and that probably accounted for half of them only.

I'm no expert on Thailand, but what I've noticed is that there's little respect for public spaces here, either from individuals or the government, and that means little respect for anyone outside one's friends and family. I've read about the 3 circles in Thai society (family/close friends, then casual friends/acquaintences, then everyone else) and how those in the 3rd circle are fair game for any behavior that will profit you.

Look at how many business, just taking CM as an example, expand their store etc onto the sidewalk--how every sq. cm. of space is occupied. Or how business are allowed to put up advertising signs right in the middle of the sidewalk. Watch your head! Or how, when you activate the crossing signal, the bike/car drivers sit there revving their engines nearly snarling at you because you're slowing them down.

The so-called f-u attitude seems to be the status quo here, behind the polite smiles. And having been here (Asia) for longer than I care to admit, it's not getting any better, in fact I'd say worse, as younger people are more wrapped-up in themselves and their online/offline lives than ever before, as civility around the world has worsened, and as ever more people have access to motorized power. Power corrupts, and people who are used to flicking their wrist and being able to zip down the street are not going to give that up.

So it's no surprise your plan has been ridiculed by some or labeled pie-in-the-sky. Keep Albert Schweitzer's dictum in mind, great ideas will always be met with ridicule; but again there are mountains to move--with gov't and police--to make such a plan possible at all, and first of all you'd need something less than 90% of the expats against the idea.

These expats who thing cycling's for the birds are in a way the biggest obstacle to any plan to make Chiangmai more livable (like it was not all-too-long ago): Thais obviously have a like/dislike relationship with us, but on the like side they know, or at least think, we in Western countries are more progressive and are still leading the way in social improvements. But most expats assimilate more than they even know, and here that means living like it's the 70s--bear, cigarettes, forget about peak oil and global warming, etc. So there's a chance, but I'd say it's tiny.

If you're so impassioned about it, I'd recommend reaching out to more than a bunch of motorsai-owning, bootleg-video-watching, computer-forum-posting sedentary-expats :-P! The falang owner of Nice Kitchen on MM soi 6 is an avid rider, he might be someone to talk to. Good luck!

I'm on Koh Tao right now, btw, it's hot but a beautiful island to bicycle on; however it's basically all tourists tooling around on motorcycles, most too fast and not safely. Whaddya gonna do.....

OK time for a swim, it's amazing what good exercise does the mind and body!

hellodolly · May 21, 2013

Yes, Tropico, but my question is how do cars drive onto a properly designed and constructed bike path? There are barriers and gates which should be designed to separate the bikes from the cars and motorcycles and motobai to keep out the ones you don't want.

The same case you mention is true in other countries - people with motorbikes available will ride them to go 50 meters or less. If they needed to use the foot pedal to start them rather than using the electric starter motor, then they might think twice. Man is naturally a slothful animal it sometimes seems, or at least is often unthinking. But again, the project can be made successful if there is the motivation and the exchange of like views.

I am with you on this and I would be more than happy to have proper facilities but I feel it is almost an utopia in CM. Many of the roads are too small to have space for a bike lane. But they could definitely do it where there is enough space. Or they could develop a series of parks around CM and connect them via park connectors like in Singapore. (I understand this is not Singapore but can learn from it)

CM and its population is growing, traffic congestion is going to be worse and to be honest if more people would use bicycles it would be good, and if they would stay on their paths, car and motorbike drivers won't feel so annoyed and vice versa!

I ride my bike as transportation vehicle and for sport. I love cycling and I would love to see many more people on bicycles and less cars. Roads were not made only for cars and motorbikes but many people think so! Everybody driving or riding on roads should just exercise a bit more responsibility, follow the rules, and be more kind, something that I do not see here and many other places.

I see you ride your bike as a transportation vehicle and for sport.

I really don't get around the city that much and when I am out there I am walking and not really paying attention to the roads other than when I cross them.

Can you tell me is there a lot of bike lanes in Chiang Mai and are they safer to ride in than the same street with out them would be? Also are they connected in any way to another one?

Hi Hellodolly

To be honest the only bike lane that I saw is the one around the moat, on the inside of it, but as I said cars park on it.

I usually go to doi suthep and outside the city, maybe on the outer ring road or canal road where there is a bit more space and less traffic.

CM is not a cyclist friendly place but eventually it would have to change, I hope.

Yesterday I was cycling with my daughter (both on one bike) and keeping very left but a truck almost hit me with the side mirror......it must have been pretty close!!!!.

Drivers are very irresponsible and bike lanes would be just a nice addition to the city and a glimpse of development. CM cannot remain the same while the number of people and cars augment every year. Some modern solutions are needed to avoid the worst traffic, pollution, accidents etc.

Thank you for your response. Yesterday my brother in law was in town and I got a chance to go some place I hadn't been in years. Can't remember the name of the Wat but it was high up on the hill overlooking Chiang Mai. Close to the Night Safari. As we were driving out there I was just marveling at the wide open road with a decent sidewalk. this was the kind of area where a bicycle lane would do well. Unfortunately it is not in a very populated area and getting there on bike would require the usual dangers of riding around town or the road to Hangdong. When I travel through such areas is the only time I regret not having a vehicle.

junglechef · May 21, 2013

I like cycling, but after one trip into the city, never again. The traffic exhaust fumes were awful.

When I go out on my bike, I truck it to the edge of the valley & enjoy quiet, traffic free cycling in rural environment. Don't even ride where I live in the ricefields - flat, hot & boring.

Do you find it hard balancing your bike along those narrow paths in the rice fields?

I know your trying to be funny (keep trying I'm sure you'll get a chortle out of me eventually ) but I ride thru the rice files as many have dirt and now occasionally paved paths for the farmers to get around. And after a rain it's fun mud filled adventure. Combined with the cool air from the moisture in the paddies and the fresh perfume of the aromatic rice and the birds chirping etc. I love my rides out by back door esp. when I don't feel like attacking the hills. I also enjoy the way MESmiths rides out.

MESmith · May 21, 2013

Thank you for your response. Yesterday my brother in law was in town and I got a chance to go some place I hadn't been in years. Can't remember the name of the Wat but it was high up on the hill overlooking Chiang Mai. Close to the Night Safari. As we were driving out there I was just marveling at the wide open road with a decent sidewalk. this was the kind of area where a bicycle lane would do well. Unfortunately it is not in a very populated area and getting there on bike would require the usual dangers of riding around town or the road to Hangdong. When I travel through such areas is the only time I regret not having a vehicle.

That sounds like Doi Kham. Nice to cycle around that area, and accessible by riding south from CMU area avoiding the busy Canal road.

MESmith · May 21, 2013

I like cycling, but after one trip into the city, never again. The traffic exhaust fumes were awful.

When I go out on my bike, I truck it to the edge of the valley & enjoy quiet, traffic free cycling in rural environment. Don't even ride where I live in the ricefields - flat, hot & boring.

Do you find it hard balancing your bike along those narrow paths in the rice fields?

My tyres are much narrower than the paths

eyecatcher · May 21, 2013

What happened to OldChina ? after 30 posts to keep this yawning topic going, it seems he no longer has any lead in his pencil.

MESmith · May 21, 2013

What happened to OldChina ? after 30 posts to keep this yawning topic going, it seems he no longer has any lead in his pencil.

Puncture?

junglechef · May 21, 2013

Poor guy probably feels like he got run over by every cyclist in CM

MESmith · May 21, 2013

Get the campaign for cycle paths started on cm108.com

TV is irrelevant

Edited May 21, 2013 by MESmith

CobraSnakeNecktie · May 21, 2013

It's definitely an uphill battle.

There use to be a good path along the canal on dirt that crossed in front of 700 year stadium.

A few months ago they fenced it off and it now forces joggers, cyclists and dog walkers out onto the traffic lanes on canal road.. No sidewalk no safety at all.

I think they only see cyclists as lower class and unable to afford a car or motorcycle.