Is Wp Needed For Online Work?

[fasteddie]

is selling things on online auctions such as ebay etc considered as working?

Yes.

[enjoybeing]

Interestingly officials have stated that online trading (stocks shares etc) does not need a work permit..

Hard to see the rationale but still..

I also tried to get (via the Phuket gazettes issues and answers) anyone to have a stab at defining why gambling (spread betting) is any different that futures trading.. Not surprisingly no one wanted to tackle that issue.

Interestingly, I have heard this on many occasion and even my lawyer had stated trading stock online is accepted. I have also seen posts where people say it is not allowed. I would love to see an actual citation or article on this, if by chance you have one, thanks!

[Mario2008]

section 5 gives the definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

There is no exception for online work, stock trading etc.

[chrisartist]

section 5 gives the definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

There is no exception for online work, stock trading etc.

Yes, it gives the definition of work, so it is at least clear what definition is used in Thai law. However, as I noted above, nothing can be deduced from it other than that in Thailand, all activities constitute work, which is either not very informative or gives anyone in authority to interpret it in such a way that you fall foul of the law.

About the only thing you can say about what constitutes work in everyday practice (because the law is useless in this regard) is that sometimes work permits are granted and sometimes they are not. if you are granted a work permit for an activity, you are working, and if you ask whether or not a work permit would be granted for an activity if you were to apply and the answer is in the affirmative, you would be working if you performed that activity. if you are not or would not be granted a work permit, then you are/would be either not working or working illegally with no definitive way of determining which.

[jpduggan]

If already was'nt it probably is now.

[Arkady]

section 5 gives the definition of work:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=162114

There is no exception for online work, stock trading etc.

Yes, it gives the definition of work, so it is at least clear what definition is used in Thai law. However, as I noted above, nothing can be deduced from it other than that in Thailand, all activities constitute work, which is either not very informative or gives anyone in authority to interpret it in such a way that you fall foul of the law.

About the only thing you can say about what constitutes work in everyday practice (because the law is useless in this regard) is that sometimes work permits are granted and sometimes they are not. if you are granted a work permit for an activity, you are working, and if you ask whether or not a work permit would be granted for an activity if you were to apply and the answer is in the affirmative, you would be working if you performed that activity. if you are not or would not be granted a work permit, then you are/would be either not working or working illegally with no definitive way of determining which.

The definition of work in the Act is gibberish because it defines work as work using physical strength or knowledge whether for wages or other benefits or not. It is obviously meaningless to define work as itself, however qualified it may be. It is not a problem of translation because the Thai version really does define work as work. Since there is essentially no definition of work in the Act and like many other Thai laws it is left to interpretation with the intention of allowing flexibility for officials to interpret it how they like and demand bribes and for the ministry to change things significantly without having to change the law.

Digging your garden could be defined as work as could cooking your own dinner, playing golf, reading a book, chatting with a friend online, having sex with or without payment or other benefit, masturbation or playing the guitar. The courts have been know to throw out a case where someone was accused of jaming in a bar and refused to plead guilty but the same court in Chiang Mai has fined people for the same offence when they pleaded guilty. Definitely mowing your lawn and cooking your dinner are depriving Thais of income but reading a book or playing the guitar at home are not. However, masturbating could be defined as depriving one or more Thais of income or work but that is not a criterion in the law. Work that requires a work permit is simply work that uses physical strength or knowledge.

Generally the courts will consider work as working in any kind of a business or doing your own business, teaching, doing volunteer work for a charity, playing music in a public place. Doing something for yourself like digging your garden, cooking dinner, singing at a private party or a karaoke joint are never likely to be considered work by court, unless on a commercial scale like cooking dinner for 100 of your friends in a hotel kitchen. Into this category clearly falls depositing your money into a bank and moving it around online or doing the same with an online trading account or investing in an unlisted company without being a director or being involved in the management or operations. Equally online trading on your own account doesn't require any type of license from the SEC, unlike investing on behalf of others. I am very sure a Thai court would never convict a foreign online trader who isn't investing other people's money for working without a work permit.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Arkady

[ubonjoe]

How about driving?

What if they decided that driving is work so you could no longer drive your own car.

[Arkady]

How about driving?

What if they decided that driving is work so you could no longer drive your own car.

apart from stealing a job from a Thai, driving yourself is clearly work that requires the expenditure of both physical strength and knowledge. It is thus work that meets the definition of work. Foreigners driving tour vans in Phuket are currently trying to argue that this kind of work is not in fact work but without much success. However, whenever I have been stopped by traffic police they have only objected to things like speeding, shooting red lights, turning right where not allowed or driving while discombobulated. They probably feel that this is work that neither utilises physical strength nor knowledge, particularly in the latter state, and is therefore work that is not work in accordance with the Working of Aliens Act.

Traffic police are fairly high level sniff test because they are not as slouches when it comes to cross selling of different laws in addition to traffic laws to boost their income. In addition to lurking in the bushes next to no right turn signs, they are known to be on the alert for speed pills hidden under motor bike seats, as well as overloaded vehicles full of illegal aliens.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Arkady

[ubonjoe]

I was being a little facetious in my post.

There are many things we do everyday that breaks the law as written.

As far as working online without a work permit. Just apply the out of sight out of mind rule.

Edited May 27, 2013 by ubonjoe

[NeverSure]

One might pay a modest fee to a proxy server service that has encryption service. They could decrypt the data before it left their server in another country, perhaps one's home country. The last I checked those services were about 300 bht per month. IMHO that would be the first thing I'd suggest for a non-techie.

My issue is different but the solution would work. I travel with a laptop with almost nothing on it beyond the operating system and some basic software such as an email client (program) and some other utilities. Anything private on it is in an encrypted partition and and has plausible deniability.

If you have a good friend in another country who is really into IT and has access to a Microsoft Server with active directory, the rest is easy. I use a secure tunnel to reach the server which decrypts the data, and connects me to my work station. I then use my workstation remotely. I go back out onto the internet with that IP address and I'd be almost impossible to trace to Thailand. It's also impossible for someone to know where I am, other than guess I'm somewhere in a general area of the other country. I always appear to be in the same place.

But you would need a techie to set that up, and access to his server.

[Arkady]

Thai law is often so contradictory, out of date and open to different interpretations by the same or different judical or government agencies that Thais and foreigners have no choice but to break it to work, do business or just operate their daily lives. This is left over from the sakdina system where the feudal lords reserved the right to make up, interpret and impose laws as they pleased. Modern politicians, bureaucrats, police and judges have taken over the system and mentality unreformed. The result is effectively no rule of law.