Monks And Money

[atlbravosfan]

~~~It's cute that you think you can look up the word 'Buddha' in the dictionary and understand all the complex ways that term can be applied. I mean, obviously the dictionary is the go-to source to understand philosophy.~~~

Finally. You admit you are referring to your own philosophy and not facts.

~~~Also, convenient that you had no response at all about how all caterpillars become butterflies and that causes and effects have no role to play in whether or not the develop~~~

Sorry, I got bored repeating myself refuting my disagreement with your admitted philosophies. I deal in facts.

Yeah, like Newton's laws and how they perfectly applied to all aspects of reality. Oh wait, they were overturned.

Or how Special Relativity helped us overcome the issues Newton couldn't foresee.. oh wait, those were overturned too.

Science is not fact. Science is merely replacing an understanding with something that is less false. You clearly haven't taken too many science classes... not to mention, a lot of science starts out as as philosophy or is purely mathematical until there is devised a way to test for results which can be measured.

The Higgs-boson was just philosophy until last year, how hard did you laugh at those people and their lack of facts?

[Kananga]

~~~Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen.~~~

Wow, so you must believe in God then, huh? If things don't happen for a reason (as in, there is no cause behind the event occurring) you must have no problem with the existence of God the creator of the entire Universe!

Look everyone! It's magic! Things just happen without cause! I got sick for no reason! My dog died for no reason! I broke my arm for no reason!

No, I dont believe in gods or a creator of the universe. I also dont believe your strange philosophies either.

Yeah, that strange philosophy of cause and effect. Totally not true.

I was referring to these strange philosophies

If we look at a flower, we do not see a 'flower' inside of it - instead, we see the rain, the sun, the earth, time, space, nutrients, the seed it came from.

What I personally believe is that our consciousness dies and is reborn from moment to moment as we encounter different sense-impressions. These sense-impressions give rise to mental formations (thoughts, ideas, emotions), which in turn reshape our consciousness. Everything we experience is stored as a seed deep within our consciousness and we received seeds at birth from our parents, passed down through our ancestors. Some of these seeds are physical characteristics, some of them are immaterial characteristics

We all have the ability to become Buddha. That is why, really, it doesn't even matter if there was a historical Buddha or not - because there have been various Buddhas who have lived, who are for sure historical figures with plenty of evidence.

What I call 'up' others call 'down.' What I call 'down' others call 'up.' Am I right and they are wrong? Or are they wrong and I am right? Or are we both right and we just use different words, that actually seem to be opposites? Or are we both wrong and there is no 'up' or 'down'?

Also, the 'Buddha-within' is not 'him.' It is not a being, it is not non-being, it is beyond duality and dualistic thinking. It is not something I have to 'look for' either; it is something that arises as a natural result of a process, cause and effect.

The Buddha is not something you can conceive of nor that you can talk about. It is only something that can be experienced - like everything else in our lives.

You may have not noticed but you also continually contradict yourself with regard to the term 'buddha'. One minute you're quoting him and his historical teachings, the next you are saying I'm hung up on the historical context of the man. Surely you are the one hung up on him if you keep quoting what he is supposed to have said.

And finally

~~~An example of an immaterial world - your thoughts, your emotions, your ideas. Are you going to refute that those terms are immaterial?~~~

Yes. They are a direct result of chemical and biological reactions within the human brain. Cause and effect. One day when science is more evolved in this field we will be able to measure them too.

~~~If I were to break open my head, would thoughts come spilling out?~~~

With you that's a distinct possibility.

[Kananga]

~~~It's cute that you think you can look up the word 'Buddha' in the dictionary and understand all the complex ways that term can be applied. I mean, obviously the dictionary is the go-to source to understand philosophy.~~~

Finally. You admit you are referring to your own philosophy and not facts.

~~~Also, convenient that you had no response at all about how all caterpillars become butterflies and that causes and effects have no role to play in whether or not the develop~~~

Sorry, I got bored repeating myself refuting my disagreement with your admitted philosophies. I deal in facts.

Yeah, like Newton's laws and how they perfectly applied to all aspects of reality. Oh wait, they were overturned.

Or how Special Relativity helped us overcome the issues Newton couldn't foresee.. oh wait, those were overturned too.

Science is not fact. Science is merely replacing an understanding with something that is less false. You clearly haven't taken too many science classes... not to mention, a lot of science starts out as as philosophy or is purely mathematical until there is devised a way to test for results which can be measured.

The Higgs-boson was just philosophy until last year, how hard did you laugh at those people and their lack of facts?

So you are admitting your philosophies and beliefs may also be completely wrong and the buddha was potentially talking out of his backside to his admiring followers to stroke his own ego and plug holes in the scientifically unproven questions of the time?

[Kananga]

I challenge anyone to head down town now and find a policeman, punch him square in the jaw.

Then tell me Karma does not exist.

It's a way of good living and good thought, and as a result you will not bring any unwarranted negativity on yourself.

Poor example. What if I punched him in the jaw and I was arrested and put in jail, like the effect you are assuming would happen as being good karma, yet unknown to you that Policeman abused his authority (like so many do here) and me punching him and putting him in hospital stopped him from extorting people. Yet I still go to jail for effectively saving poor people from being extorted so they can continue to feed their children. Uh-oh! Its karma conundrum time!

It really doesnt exist. Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen. Sometimes the guilty get caught and are punished, sometimes they get away with it. If they never got away with it then you may have some evidence for your belief. But as I can prove that many people do bad things and do get away with it till they die I'll continue to believe that karma is a load of rubbish. Until you can prove otherwise of course.

A good way of living and good thought is to do good deeds without having to worry or believe that some sort of spiritual justice system is going to take care of things. Just be good. Its really not that difficult.

It's a self-defeating proposition...no point in being good for good's sake...

animal's don't do it, bacteria don't....why should we?

...being good makes sense only from a religious point of view..

Especially when the grouped based on religious beliefs, atheists statistically cause the least amount of crime.

[Jasun]

Kicking back with a ciggy and a meat pie with sauce is not how I pictured a monk spending his days.

[muythai2013]

I follow Buddhism because for me it seems the way, unfortunately about life, the world, the Universe and everything in it I know sweet F all.

To me It seems right but I could be wrong.

What makes me laugh is most people posting religious or not think they have everything absolutely figured out without a doubt and are certain they are right on every aspect of everything.

At least I admit I know nothing and am trying to learn, and strangely enough though my Buddhist journey that is important to me and been a very long one (most of my life) bothers so many people.

I have never told anyone to convert, I have never said your way is wrong and my way is right and your a fool for not embracing my way.

However I have heard many people say my way is wrong.

[Kananga]

I follow Buddhism because for me it seems the way, unfortunately about life, the world, the Universe and everything in it I know sweet F all.

To me It seems right but I could be wrong.

What makes me laugh is most people posting religious or not think they have everything absolutely figured out without a doubt and are certain they are right on every aspect of everything.

At least I admit I know nothing and am trying to learn, and strangely enough though my Buddhist journey that is important to me and been a very long one (most of my life) bothers so many people.

I have never told anyone to convert, I have never said your way is wrong and my way is right and your a fool for not embracing my way.

However I have heard many people say my way is wrong.

Sounds like a Sinatra song.

[kannot]

I challenge anyone to head down town now and find a policeman, punch him square in the jaw.

Then tell me Karma does not exist.

It's a way of good living and good thought, and as a result you will not bring any unwarranted negativity on yourself.

What like ending up dead in random crossfire from other peoples bullets as we saw recently in a TV announcement.?

[jackinbkk]

~~~It's cute that you think you can look up the word 'Buddha' in the dictionary and understand all the complex ways that term can be applied. I mean, obviously the dictionary is the go-to source to understand philosophy.~~~

Finally. You admit you are referring to your own philosophy and not facts.

~~~Also, convenient that you had no response at all about how all caterpillars become butterflies and that causes and effects have no role to play in whether or not the develop~~~

Sorry, I got bored repeating myself refuting my disagreement with your admitted philosophies. I deal in facts.

Yeah, like Newton's laws and how they perfectly applied to all aspects of reality. Oh wait, they were overturned.

Or how Special Relativity helped us overcome the issues Newton couldn't foresee.. oh wait, those were overturned too.

Science is not fact. Science is merely replacing an understanding with something that is less false. You clearly haven't taken too many science classes... not to mention, a lot of science starts out as as philosophy or is purely mathematical until there is devised a way to test for results which can be measured.

The Higgs-boson was just philosophy until last year, how hard did you laugh at those people and their lack of facts?

Oh this cracks me up. Stupidity and misunderstanding can't be proof of a God.

Why do the God squad always think it's up to others to disprove a God's existence? i.e. The opposite of common sense.

[jackinbkk]

There is often a lot of guilt about being wealthy and I suppose Thai's feel that giving money to Temples will balance their Karma and possibly buy more good luck.

The monks don't argue with those thoughts.

[Kananga]

There is often a lot of guilt about being wealthy and I suppose Thai's feel that giving money to Temples will balance their Karma and possibly buy more good luck.

The monks don't argue with those thoughts.

I would hazard a guess that Thais are not among those that feel guilty about being wealthy. In fact it would appear at face value that there is a need to project a perception of wealth far beyond their means. Where else in the world would it be acceptable and a common practice to live in a shoebox condo so one could afford to be seen driving a Mercedes that costs more than the actual apartment?

Thais give money to temples because they think it will bring them good luck which will in turn make them even wealthier. Ironically this action only makes them poorer and the monks who have supposed to have given up a life of material possessions are the only ones who gain any wealth from this pointless exercise.

[Kananga]

~~~The Higgs-boson was just philosophy until last year, how hard did you laugh at those people and their lack of facts?~~~

Actually, it was a theory not philosophy (I suggest you learn the difference), up until the point it was proven by science. Why would I laugh hard at people using science to prove the fundamental facts surrounding that theory? What an odd thing to suggest.

[PoodMaiDai]

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

[Kananga]

vinniekintana, on 29 May 2013 - 21:39, said:

Kananga, on 29 May 2013 - 12:41, said:

vinniekintana, on 29 May 2013 - 12:38, said:

Kananga, on 29 May 2013 - 11:21, said:

I challenge anyone to head down town now and find a policeman, punch him square in the jaw.

Then tell me Karma does not exist.

It's a way of good living and good thought, and as a result you will not bring any unwarranted negativity on yourself.

Poor example. What if I punched him in the jaw and I was arrested and put in jail, like the effect you are assuming would happen as being good karma, yet unknown to you that Policeman abused his authority (like so many do here) and me punching him and putting him in hospital stopped him from extorting people. Yet I still go to jail for effectively saving poor people from being extorted so they can continue to feed their children. Uh-oh! Its karma conundrum time!

It really doesnt exist. Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen. Sometimes the guilty get caught and are punished, sometimes they get away with it. If they never got away with it then you may have some evidence for your belief. But as I can prove that many people do bad things and do get away with it till they die I'll continue to believe that karma is a load of rubbish. Until you can prove otherwise of course.

A good way of living and good thought is to do good deeds without having to worry or believe that some sort of spiritual justice system is going to take care of things. Just be good. Its really not that difficult.

It's a self-defeating proposition...no point in being good for good's sake...

animal's don't do it, bacteria don't....why should we?

...being good makes sense only from a religious point of view..

Especially when the grouped based on religious beliefs, atheists statistically cause the least amount of crime.

Pure seculation..

I speculate on the opposite.

An atheist has no moral scruples whatsoever...

Where is he gonna get them from?...Voltaire?....Nietzsche?...

Well..ok..he may have some but are totally arbitrary, haphazard and bound to change at a moment's notice.

Most mainstream religions have eternal values...holy books don't change.

Where is he going to get them from? His conscience, compassion, understanding the fundamentals of right and wrong. If you need to believe in a great invisible man in the sky to have those values and to stop you from committing crimes then you're seriously screwed up.

We're all born atheists. Then at some point the majority of us are fed a load of fairytale bullshit about gods and hell etc. Some people fall for this bullshit and become religious, sadly many as young children when their minds are most impressionable and easy to manipulate. Others see it for what it is and remain atheists. Thankfully some people who believed the bullshit realise its a load of horse-shit and have returned to their natural Atheist state.

As for mainstream religions having eternal values. Really? Are you aware of some of the 'values in the Christian bible? Start off by educating yourself with these eternal values

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

2 Samuel 12:11-14

Exodus 21:7-11

Deuteronomy 17:12

Leviticus 20:10

Exodus 31:12-15

Anyway, if atheists have no moral scruples whatsoever how come 65% of the American prison population are Christian yet less than 10% are atheists? To put that in an ever better perspective over 90% of the US prision population gets their 'moral scruples' as you call them based on their religious beliefs. There obviously must be something said about reading Nietzsche.

How come the countries with the highest standard of living (Norway, Canada, Sweden and Australia) have among the highest percentage of Atheists in their communities and the 50 worst countries are by and large the most religious? Being duped into thinking that because people are religious they have some sort of moral high-ground is absurd. Religion is about control through fear. Be good or your merciful god wont let you into heaven and you wont be allowed to sing hymns with your dead relatives for the rest of eternity. You'll have to go to hell with all the catholic priests (did someone mention moral scruples?) who rape little boys.

Anyway, just a few questions for you to ponder.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Kananga

[Buckaroo]

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

There should be a law that forbids organised religion

[muythai2013]

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

There should be a law that forbids organised religion

I lived in a wat in Thailand and in Australia so I must respectfully disagree, Buddhism was no different in both wats.

[Kananga]

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

There should be a law that forbids organised religion

I lived in a wat in Thailand and in Australia so I must respectfully disagree, Buddhism was no different in both wats.

What wat in Australia?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Kananga

[muythai2013]

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

There should be a law that forbids organised religion

I lived in a wat in Thailand and in Australia so I must respectfully disagree, Buddhism was no different in both wats.

What wat in Australia?

Sunnataram Forest Monastery

[muythai2013]

Although in the Australian Wat we could not eat meat.

[Kananga]

There should be a law that forbids organised religion

Buddhism here for the most part is anything but Buddhism. There should be a law that forbids them to call themselves Buddhists.

I lived in a wat in Thailand and in Australia so I must respectfully disagree, Buddhism was no different in both wats.

What wat in Australia?

Sunnataram Forest Monastery

If it was a Thai monastery then there most likely wouldn't be much difference between the wats you visited in Australia and Thailand. The claim that buddhism in Thailand for the most part is anything but buddhism still has merit (excuse the pun) if the Australian wat takes is discipline based on Thai interpretation.

[muythai2013]

I agree absolutely many temples need a kick in the pants, to many.

But fortunately some are on track.

[sustento]

Given the choice between spending time with the Buddhists in this thread or their opponents I'd much rather spend time with the Buddhists. They don't seem to be carrying a big rucksack of anger around with them.

[Kananga]

Given the choice between spending time with the Buddhists in this thread or their opponents I'd much rather spend time with the Buddhists. They don't seem to be carrying a big rucksack of anger around with them.

Real buddhists wouldn't have opponents.

[sustento]

Given the choice between spending time with the Buddhists in this thread or their opponents I'd much rather spend time with the Buddhists. They don't seem to be carrying a big rucksack of anger around with them.

Real buddhists wouldn't have opponents.

How would you describe yourself then? You appear to have set yourself up as an opponent to people who are simply trying to describe the way they look at the world. You're the one with the insults and anger.

[asupeartea]

A friend in northern Thailand came here to become a Buddhist monk. He did it for a year and a half and quit because the monks only talked about money. How to get it, how to secretly stash it, who was the big earner, etc.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Kananga]

Given the choice between spending time with the Buddhists in this thread or their opponents I'd much rather spend time with the Buddhists. They don't seem to be carrying a big rucksack of anger around with them.

Real buddhists wouldn't have opponents.

How would you describe yourself then? You appear to have set yourself up as an opponent to people who are simply trying to describe the way they look at the world. You're the one with the insults and anger.

How would I describe myself? In what context?

And for the record I dont have insults and anger. I have ridicule (for ridiculous beliefs) and humour.

[GottaGo]

Sorry if this is a repeat, didn't wade through all the pages.

When will people stop giving to other people that say they have invisible friends? By the way, my invisible friend could do with a beer, if you give it to me, I will pass it on to him.

True Buddhism doesn't involve any god or gods, nor worship at all in fact. It's just a scientific approach to determine what works and what doesn't in day to day life.

Some temples' abbots have been implicated in drug running, arms dealing, abortions - I remember one story in the news a few years ago about a pitched battle between the monks at two temples using machetes and pitchforks to fight over territories for their criminal activities.

This stuff doesn't reflect on the true philosophy or "religion" any more than such activities do on a nation, you've got good and bad people all mixed up everywhere, there is no one place or category containing only good people.

And not for us to judge others anyway, we usually have no idea of the circumstances, choose to give or not to give up to you, or if you leave the decision-making to your partner then really do leave it there, look to your own thoughts and deeds, let the stress and strife go and be at peace.

[GottaGo]

~~~Things don't happen for a reason. Things just happen.~~~

Wow, so you must believe in God then, huh? If things don't happen for a reason (as in, there is no cause behind the event occurring) you must have no problem with the existence of God the creator of the entire Universe!

Look everyone! It's magic! Things just happen without cause! I got sick for no reason! My dog died for no reason! I broke my arm for no reason!

The creation of everything is unexplainable as we do not have the scientific knowledge available to us yet, possibly because we have been following ancient texts.

Or possibly because we lacked the technology to investigate certain aspects of existence? Perhaps it's because science can't actually deliver answers to all the questions because some of the questions are unanswerable?

A useful discussion of these points from a "strictly scientific" point of view.

http://edge.org/conversation/think-about-nature

Gets pretty darn mystical when you get to that level if you ask me. . .

[pistachios]

Saw on TV this afternoon that the Abott of Wat Pak Nam was implicated in the luxury car scandal. He owns a... Lamborghini.

Seems like his temple is very well run!

It's not clear yet if his car was legally imported. Then it would be OK, I guess

[camerata]

I've deleted a couple of posts, one for discussing moderation and the other for being nothing but an attempt to depict Thai monks in a bad light.

I don't recall if this topic started in the Buddhist Forum or another, but I'd like to remind everyone that we have our own forum-specific rules, one of which is:

"Buddhism, along with the Thai monarchy, is one of the most respected social institutions in Thailand. Posts whose primary purpose is to slag off Buddhism in general or Thai Buddhism in particular are not welcome. Such posts will be edited or deleted immediately, and the member will be warned and/or suspended."

If you think Thai monks should be saints, you might want to look at an earlier topic: Thai Buddhism Is What It Is.