Recording Phone Call - Legal/illegal

[belg]

install a security camera above her desk... valid proof during working hours if misconducted

[MILT]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

The labor laws in Thailand are set to protect the employees not the employers. We have 370 employees and I can tell you it doesn't matter whether they respect the boss or not. LOL What NGO are you? and what work does your NGO do? What is her job description? Is she Thai? Burmese? ThaiYai? other? Unless her Lies are adversely effecting your NGO and resulting in lose of income I think you should cut your losses and pay the 3 months. It will be cheaper to do that than hire a lawyer. If you do hire a lawyer make sure that person is recommended by a close friend. Lawyers over here no how to drag issues out for a long time. It almost sounds like a personal issue to me. Good luck mate!

[Braddockrd]

Be careful with taping conversations without permission. Thailand is a civil law system. It has enacted right to privacy and data protection laws to protect, among others, the reputation of the individual. While under civil law (and common law) principles the conversation may be admissible as evidence in court in a matter of civil litigation, its public dissemination may be a violation of the above laws. Like everything else, you gotto do things smartly. Right to privacy laws can be trumped when the public interest is at stake (probably not your case) or when you are protecting the security of the company. That is your ace card. You should document first of all the risks that the employee is creating to the company and the need to record the conversations without her permission due to her dishonest nature. Then you still need to fire her for cause. If she wants to sue you then you can present the evidence sealed as a defense for the judge to inspect ex-chambers. In this case, you will not have violated any laws. As everything in life, it is a matter or procedure.

[tonypace02]

When I read the law, I was under the impression that the employer was required to pay two months' severance. That was three years ago so it may have changed. I have litigated twice against two rich and politically powerful organizations and have come out ahead. In both cases the judges asked me to consider a negotiated settlement rather than insist on a full blown trial which could end up in an appeal cycle. Both settlements were almost exactly the same: 150% of my loss plus lawyers' fees. I had to put up ฿8,000 for court costs but, since there was no trial, it was refunded to me within three weeks of the settlement.

I trust the Thai legal system. Sure, there may be corruption in it, but at our levels of involvement, who is going to risk a ludicrous and affluent career for judgements under a half million baht.

My advice:

1. call a lawyer and ask him, not if you can record an employee's calls, but what options are open to you in dealing with the problem you are having. Others must have had similar labor problems in the past. There may be many simpler and cheaper options you have not considered. Make sure this is an attorney who knows his way around labor laws;

2. have a meeting with the employee and the attorney. She cannot afford an attorney so she will be on the defensive and that may be enough to straighten her out. The presence of the lawyer at the meeting will make her realize the seriousness of her predicament;

3. losing a trained employee is usually costly. You will have to hire and train another person who may be no better than the one she is replacing. Facing the loss of an income and having been scrutinized by a lawyer, your employee may be willing to change her behavior. I realize that may be a long shot, but it is an option worth exploring.

4. few employees know Thai labor law; Under no circumstances advise her of her rights under the law. You are neither an attorney nor a policeman. At the same time, do not suggest any negative consequences that may result from her dismissal;

5. do not, under any circumstances, discuss any details of this employee's behavior with anyone but your lawyer. Thai libel and slander laws are vicious. You can be fined and imprisoned for saying anything negative about a person, EVEN IF IT IS TRUE!;

6. ignore any advice that includes the phrase, "cut your losses." Remember, it is YOUR losses they are advising you to cut, not THEIRS.

Consulting an attorney may cost you as much as ฿8000, but that is significantly less than what you will pay for severance. Also, it will help you develop a relationship with a Thai legal advisor. How an NGO or any legally operating organization can function without legal representation stretches the imagination.

What is stated herein is my opinion. I am neither an attorney nor do I profess to have any training in Thai law or labor policy.

Good luck.

Edited May 31, 2013 by tonypace02

[bangkokstick]

Give her 3 months salary for what, we are not in EU ! Even if she goes to the court (does she have to pay for this ?) and win you will never pay and then end of story. What else can she do ? When employees do not respect me I also do not respect them !

You must be joking, paying three months will be the least she will get. You say 'what can she do?' she can turn up with a court bailiff and seize just about everything you have. I have a friend who recently went through exactly this, the three months money turned into a claim for 14 million and he had to fight it all the way and still pay over three months money plus and additional amount. So beware you Farang she Thai who do you think will win?

Sorry but never even heard about any employee able to fight, so I wonder from where you get your stories...

Is she highly educated with hundred thousand baht salary ? Or i don't believe that she has any chance to do anything but shut up !

[Braddockrd]

install a security camera above her desk... valid proof during working hours if misconducted

Probably illegal unless not directed to a specific individual and supported by valid business reasons. It violates data protection acts

[Braddockrd]

By the way, Spartans, what is the purpose of the recording, to prove that she is a liar? The fundamental question you should ask first is: "does lying at work constitues valid cause for dismissal"? I would say probably not, unless the lies are having a material impact on her performance. But then you are in the difficult area of employee performance, which is very subjective. My instinct is that if what you are trying to prove is non-performance you do not have a leg to stand on, unless you have multiple instances properly documented during a reasonable period of time. Employees can allege a variety of reasons such as stress to account for the non-performance. I do not think this is an area where you want to spend your resources. My advice is, do not pick this battle.

[Braddockrd]

Give her 3 months salary for what, we are not in EU ! Even if she goes to the court (does she have to pay for this ?) and win you will never pay and then end of story. What else can she do ? When employees do not respect me I also do not respect them !

You must be joking, paying three months will be the least she will get. You say 'what can she do?' she can turn up with a court bailiff and seize just about everything you have. I have a friend who recently went through exactly this, the three months money turned into a claim for 14 million and he had to fight it all the way and still pay over three months money plus and additional amount. So beware you Farang she Thai who do you think will win?

Sorry but never even heard about any employee able to fight, so I wonder from where you get your stories...

Is she highly educated with hundred thousand baht salary ? Or i don't believe that she has any chance to do anything but shut up !

Stick, any office worker today has plenty of friends to tell her that she can sue for unfair dismissal. It happens all the time. It is rather the nature of the person that decides whether she will sue or not. She does not even have to hire a lawyer and it is typically free of cost.

[cheeryble]

Yeah, it is not correct. In Thailand, if she works less than a year, she' entitled to 1 month. And between 1-3 years, it is 3 month salary.

Thankyou for that Spartans.

But presumably you can expect them to work for the salary?

....And what happens after three years? One month per year?

Edited May 31, 2013 by cheeryble

[Telecom66]

Dear Spartans,

Having spent many many years as a Senior Consultant and CEO in Telecommunications and VOIP here in Thailand, I think you need to hear some direct facts, rather than some of the grossly misinformed advice you are receiving in some of the above posts [No disrespect intended - I just tell things in black-and-white].

First I will tell you what you WANT TO HEAR, and then I will tell you what you NEED TO HEAR!!

WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR:

Under certain circumstances, it is perfectly legal to record telephone conversations in Thailand. The most important part of that sentence is the first three words - under certain circumstances.

1. If one of the conversing parties has full knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and has given you written permission to record their conversations, then it is perfectly legal to record any incoming or outgoing conversation that they will have. They DO NOT have to notify the person on the other end of the line that the call is being recorded. Send a memo to all staff notifying them that all direct supervisors will now have all the calls recorded for security and operational purposes. If they are using an android phone, the best program for recording all calls is Auto Call Recorder. It also allows you to exclude certain numbers from being recorded, so you calling the wife or your wife calling you would still be a private call. [Please note: I have absolutely no affiliation or interest in promoting auto call recorder. After testing almost every app in the android market, it has proven to be the easiest and most functional, while working transparently in the background]. If someone can advise the best call recording software apps on IOS, BB, and WIN, I will be happy to add them here.

2. If your company telephone system has a global recorded message stating that all calls may be recorded for security and operational purposes [in both Thai and English], then you can legally record any incoming or outgoing conversations on your company telephones. In Thailand, you DO NOT have to include any option for them to opt-out of this recording requirement. However, as most Thai people make calls from their mobile phones, you would be relying on her calling her direct supervisor on his office phone and him recording the conversation from his office phone. Therefore, it would be easier to use Option 1 above and have the supervisor record the phone call on his mobile phone.

3. Any law enforcement official can obtain the equivalent of a wire tap warrant, providing they believe there is a criminal act occurring. In your case, the action is civil in nature, and the police would not entertain this option.

4. The National Telecommunications Commission [NTC] have the power to record anything, the power to have a telephone blocked and locked, or the power to shut down a complete telecommunications network. They are above the government, but below the King, so they normally only conduct authorized surveillance on things that are of national interest. Your case would not apply in this instance.

Therefore, you legally have two options available to you should you wish to persu them.

From a non-telecommunications perspective, there is always the option of installing video surveillance cameras with audio in the office, and having the supervisors answer the calls on speakerphones which 'accidentally' gets picked up by the surveillance video recordings.

NOW WHAT YOU NEED TO HEAR:

It is obvious by some of the above comments, that they have had absolutely nothing to do with managing Thai staff in a Thai company.

1. You have already told us that her fellow staff have joined with her. It is a complete waste of time to demote her. A festering sore will continue to be a festering sore until it is removed from the host body. Get your corporate lawyer to advise you on the safest and fastest way to terminate her employment. In Thai labor laws, there is a clause which states "If business conditions necessitate cutbacks, firms have freedom in determining retrenchment policies; there is no “first in, last out” requirement in Thailand". Therefore, sending an office memo advising that "due to changing business conditions there will be a necessity for office cutbacks". Have a group office meeting to make sure everybody knows this, and then notify her privately three days later that her position is one of the positions that has been cut, and thanking her for her valuable contribution". Write her a glowing reference, and let her become someone else's problem as quick as possible. Please see the severance pay paragraph below for the true severance rates which are mandatory.Your goal is to get her out and fully paid up immediately. I have personally seen best results achieved by having her outstanding monthly salary + severance pay + THB1000 thankyou bonus already calculated + glowing reference letter [typed and signed in both English and Thai] in hand. Explain to her your sorry but the decision was not yours but you wish her well. Ask here to clear out her desk and makes sure to get any keys she may have. Have your IT team change her company email password and any other passwords she may have had access to.

2. Recording conversations is not advised, simply because the supervisor could accidentally use statements that could be claimed as "entrapment" and used against you. When you are recording conversations with the intent of a specific outcome, it is very easy to accidentally use words and phrases that entrap the other person into divulging information they may or may not have divulged otherwise. There is no point giving them any evidence to take to the labor office or law enforcement.

3. The Labor Department in Thailand is very fair and just. Do not listen to posters above who claim that it is biased towards employees. As long as you have the facts, have not abused your rights as an employer, and present your case effectively, the labor office will find in your favor. If you are wrong, then the labor office will find in favor of the employee. Do it by the letter of the law and there is no avenue of recourse by the employee. I have never seen an occurrence where the labor office has come in and confiscated property when everything has been done right. I have heard of several horror stories of farang companies doing it wrong and getting penalized heavily - and rightly so. The labor law is a law, and if you adhere to it's requirements, then all will play out as expected.

4. Regardless of anything else, terminating the employment of any legal employee will incur mandatory severance pay as stipulated by law in the labor laws of Thailand. You and previous posters are both wrong about current severance pay rates.

As per the current laws found at www.boi.go.th/tir/issue/200506_16_6/14.htm
4 months - 1 year employment = 30 days severance pay
1 - 3 years employment = 90 days severance pay
3 - 6 years employment = 180 days severance pay
6 - 10 years employment = 240 days severance pay
More than 10 years employment = 300 days severance pay
A rule of thumb for employees working less than 4 months is 1 week severance pay per 1 month of employment, but this is completely optional and at the discretion of the employer. The labor office cannot force an employer to pay severance pay for an employee of less than 4 months duration, but it almost guarantees a decision in the employer's favor if the disgruntled employee ever tries to take the employer to the Labor Department for whatever reason.

IN CONCLUSION:

My advice to you from the senior management perspective is to get this employee off your payroll immediately. Be aware that maybe one or two of the other staff may resign immediately with her, but see that as a bonus and not worry too much. After all, it is better to have all the cancer removed in one go than to risk leaving part of it behind which can teach bad habits to others. It will also serve as a "wake-up call" and a "shot across the bow" warning to all the other office staff who started to gang up with her, that this type of action will not be tolerated. I would urge you to consult with your lawyer about her termination, and not worry about recording the calls.

That being said, you should learn from this lesson, and put in place a system of recording all communications with senior management and supervisors. As listed above, it is very easy to record telephone conversations and mobilephone conversations nowadays. Make it part of your corporate governance - it should be mandatory for NGOs in any case.

Resist the advice above relating to sending emails to get her to confirm what she said. Unless you are exceptionally careful with your wording, you will very quickly find yourself caught up in entrapment.

I trust that this will steer you in the right direction, and apologize if any of the previous posters feel that I may have trodden on their toes.

Telecom66

Edited May 31, 2013 by Telecom66

[Spartans]

Dear Spartans,

Having spent many years as a senior consultant and CEO in telecommunications and VOIP here in Thailand, I think you need to hear some direct facts, rather than some of the grossly misinformed advice you are receiving in some of the above posts [No disrespect intended - I just tell things in black-and-white].

First I will tell you what you WANT TO HEAR, and then I will tell you what you NEED TO HEAR!!

WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR:

Under certain circumstances, it is perfectly legal to record telephone conversations in Thailand. The most important part of that sentence is the first three words - under certain circumstances.

1. If one of the conversing parties has full knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and has given you written permission to record their conversations, then it is perfectly legal to record any incoming or outgoing conversation that they will have. They DO NOT have to notify the person on the other end of the line that the call is being recorded. Send a memo to all staff notifying them that all direct supervisors will now have all the calls recorded for security and operational purposes. If they are using an android phone, the best program for recording all calls is Auto Call Recorder. It also allows you to exclude certain numbers from being recorded, so you calling the wife or your wife calling you would still be a private call. [Please note: I have absolutely no affiliation or interest in promoting auto call recorder. After testing almost every app in the android market, it has proven to be the easiest and most functional, while working transparently in the background]

2. If your company telephone system has a global recorded message stating that all calls may be recorded for security and operational purposes [in both Thai and English], then you can legally record any incoming or outgoing conversations on your company telephones. In Thailand, you DO NOT have to include any option for them to opt-out of this recording requirement. However, as most Thai people make calls from their mobile phones, you would be relying on her calling her direct supervisor on his office phone and him recording the conversation from his office phone. Therefore, it would be easier to use Option 1 above and have the supervisor record the phone call on his mobile phone.

3. Any law enforcement official can obtain the equivalent of a wire tap warrant, providing they believe there is a criminal act occurring. In your case, the action is civil in nature, and the police would not entertain this option.

4. The National Telecommunications Commission [NTC] have the power to record anything, the power to have a telephone blocked and locked, or the power to shut down a complete telecommunications network. They are above the government, but below the King, so they normally only conduct authorized surveillance on things that are of national interest. Your case would not apply in this instance.

Therefore, you legally have two options available to you should you wish to persu them.

From a non-telecommunications perspective, there is always the option of installing video surveillance cameras with audio in the office, and having the supervisors answer the calls on speakerphones which 'accidentally' gets picked up by the surveillance video recordings.

NOW WHAT YOU NEED TO HEAR:

It is obvious by some of the above comments, that they have had absolutely nothing to do with managing Thai staff in a Thai company.

1. You have already told us that her fellow staff have joined with her. It is a complete waste of time to demote her. A festering sore will continue to be a festering sore until it is removed from the host body. Get your corporate lawyer to advise you on the safest and fastest way to terminate her employment. In Thai labor laws, there is a clause which states "If business conditions necessitate cutbacks, firms have freedom in determining retrenchment policies; there is no “first in, last out” requirement in Thailand". Therefore, sending an office memo advising that "due to changing business conditions there will be a necessity for office cutbacks". Have a group office meeting to make sure everybody knows this, and then notify her privately three days later that her position is one of the positions that has been cut, and thanking her for her valuable contribution". Write her a glowing reference, and let her become someone else's problem as quick as possible. Please see the severance pay paragraph below for the true severance rates which are mandatory.

2. Recording conversations is not advised, simply because the supervisor could accidentally use statements that could be claimed as "entrapment" and used against you. When you are recording conversations with the intent of a specific outcome, it is very easy to accidentally use words and phrases that entrap the other person into divulging information they may or may not have divulged otherwise. There is no point giving them any evidence to take to the labor office or law enforcement.

3. The Labor Department in Thailand is very fair and just. Do not listen to posters above who claim that it is biased towards employees. As long as you have the facts, have not abused your rights as an employer, and present your case effectively, the labor office will find in your favor. If you are wrong, then the labor office will find in favor of the employee. Do it by the letter of the law and there is no avenue of recourse by the employee. I have never seen an occurrence where the labor office has come in and confiscated property when everything has been done right. I have heard of several horror stories of farang companies doing it wrong and getting penalized heavily - and rightly so. The labor law is a law, and if you adhere to it's requirements, then all will play out as expected.

4. Regardless of anything else, terminating the employment of any legal employee will incur mandatory severance pay as stipulated by law in the labor laws of Thailand. You and previous posters are both wrong about current severance pay rates.

As per the current laws found at www.boi.go.th/tir/issue/200506_16_6/14.htm
4 months - 1 year employment = 30 days severance pay
1 - 3 years employment = 90 days severance pay
3 - 6 years employment = 180 days severance pay
6 - 10 years employment = 240 days severance pay
More than 10 years employment = 300 days severance pay
A rule of thumb for employees working less than 4 months is 1 week severance pay per 1 month of employment, but this is completely optional and at the discretion of the employer. The labor office cannot force an employer to pay severance pay for an employee of less than 4 months duration, but it almost guarantees a decision in the employer's favor if the disgruntled employee ever tries to take the employer to the Labor Department for whatever reason.

IN CONCLUSION:

My advice to you from the senior management perspective is to get this employee off your payroll immediately. Be aware that maybe one or two of the other staff may resign immediately with her, but see that as a bonus and not worry too much. After all, it is better to have all the cancer removed in one go than to risk leaving part of it behind which can teach bad habits to others. It will also serve as a "wake-up call" and a "shot across the bow" warning to all the other office staff who started to gang up with her, that this type of action will not be tolerated. I would urge you to consult with your lawyer about her termination, and not worry about recording the calls.

That being said, you should learn from this lesson, and put in place a system of recording all communications with senior management and supervisors. As listed above, it is very easy to record telephone conversations and mobilephone conversations nowadays. Make it part of your corporate governance - it should be mandatory for NGOs in any case.

Resist the advice above relating to sending emails to get her to confirm what she said. Unless you are exceptionally careful with your wording, you will very quickly find yourself caught up in entrapment.

I trust that this will steer you in the right direction, and apologize if any of the previous posters feel that I may have trodden on their toes.

Telecom66

You, my friend, were the reason I wrote in this forum

What you wrote confirmed what the lawyer said to us this afternoon (I am glad to have second source confirming what he said). Additionally, you presented some practical ideas that we have not explored yet with the lawyer.

I really appreciate the time and energy you spent writing this. Thank you!

[bangkokstick]

Still feel shocked to know that even in this country we could be victims of our staff.

I actually always managed to get rid of the cancer without paying anything in my home country and can't imagine that I would have to pay anything here.

She is a bxtch so be a bxtch yourself and make her life as hell, she will leave like anybody else would do anywhere in the world, and even easier here because she knows that she will find a job the next day.

Of course this is not the right way to do, but it's mine and it always works.

[Telecom66]

Dear Spartans,

Having spent many years as a senior consultant and CEO in telecommunications and VOIP here in Thailand, I think you need to hear some direct facts, rather than some of the grossly misinformed advice you are receiving in some of the above posts [No disrespect intended - I just tell things in black-and-white].

First I will tell you what you WANT TO HEAR, and then I will tell you what you NEED TO HEAR!!

WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR:

Under certain circumstances, it is perfectly legal to record telephone conversations in Thailand. The most important part of that sentence is the first three words - under certain circumstances.

1. If one of the conversing parties has full knowledge that the conversation is being recorded, and has given you written permission to record their conversations, then it is perfectly legal to record any incoming or outgoing conversation that they will have. They DO NOT have to notify the person on the other end of the line that the call is being recorded. Send a memo to all staff notifying them that all direct supervisors will now have all the calls recorded for security and operational purposes. If they are using an android phone, the best program for recording all calls is Auto Call Recorder. It also allows you to exclude certain numbers from being recorded, so you calling the wife or your wife calling you would still be a private call. [Please note: I have absolutely no affiliation or interest in promoting auto call recorder. After testing almost every app in the android market, it has proven to be the easiest and most functional, while working transparently in the background]

2. If your company telephone system has a global recorded message stating that all calls may be recorded for security and operational purposes [in both Thai and English], then you can legally record any incoming or outgoing conversations on your company telephones. In Thailand, you DO NOT have to include any option for them to opt-out of this recording requirement. However, as most Thai people make calls from their mobile phones, you would be relying on her calling her direct supervisor on his office phone and him recording the conversation from his office phone. Therefore, it would be easier to use Option 1 above and have the supervisor record the phone call on his mobile phone.

3. Any law enforcement official can obtain the equivalent of a wire tap warrant, providing they believe there is a criminal act occurring. In your case, the action is civil in nature, and the police would not entertain this option.

4. The National Telecommunications Commission [NTC] have the power to record anything, the power to have a telephone blocked and locked, or the power to shut down a complete telecommunications network. They are above the government, but below the King, so they normally only conduct authorized surveillance on things that are of national interest. Your case would not apply in this instance.

Therefore, you legally have two options available to you should you wish to persu them.

From a non-telecommunications perspective, there is always the option of installing video surveillance cameras with audio in the office, and having the supervisors answer the calls on speakerphones which 'accidentally' gets picked up by the surveillance video recordings.

NOW WHAT YOU NEED TO HEAR:

It is obvious by some of the above comments, that they have had absolutely nothing to do with managing Thai staff in a Thai company.

1. You have already told us that her fellow staff have joined with her. It is a complete waste of time to demote her. A festering sore will continue to be a festering sore until it is removed from the host body. Get your corporate lawyer to advise you on the safest and fastest way to terminate her employment. In Thai labor laws, there is a clause which states "If business conditions necessitate cutbacks, firms have freedom in determining retrenchment policies; there is no “first in, last out” requirement in Thailand". Therefore, sending an office memo advising that "due to changing business conditions there will be a necessity for office cutbacks". Have a group office meeting to make sure everybody knows this, and then notify her privately three days later that her position is one of the positions that has been cut, and thanking her for her valuable contribution". Write her a glowing reference, and let her become someone else's problem as quick as possible. Please see the severance pay paragraph below for the true severance rates which are mandatory.

2. Recording conversations is not advised, simply because the supervisor could accidentally use statements that could be claimed as "entrapment" and used against you. When you are recording conversations with the intent of a specific outcome, it is very easy to accidentally use words and phrases that entrap the other person into divulging information they may or may not have divulged otherwise. There is no point giving them any evidence to take to the labor office or law enforcement.

3. The Labor Department in Thailand is very fair and just. Do not listen to posters above who claim that it is biased towards employees. As long as you have the facts, have not abused your rights as an employer, and present your case effectively, the labor office will find in your favor. If you are wrong, then the labor office will find in favor of the employee. Do it by the letter of the law and there is no avenue of recourse by the employee. I have never seen an occurrence where the labor office has come in and confiscated property when everything has been done right. I have heard of several horror stories of farang companies doing it wrong and getting penalized heavily - and rightly so. The labor law is a law, and if you adhere to it's requirements, then all will play out as expected.

4. Regardless of anything else, terminating the employment of any legal employee will incur mandatory severance pay as stipulated by law in the labor laws of Thailand. You and previous posters are both wrong about current severance pay rates.

As per the current laws found at www.boi.go.th/tir/issue/200506_16_6/14.htm

4 months - 1 year employment = 30 days severance pay

1 - 3 years employment = 90 days severance pay

3 - 6 years employment = 180 days severance pay

6 - 10 years employment = 240 days severance pay

More than 10 years employment = 300 days severance pay

A rule of thumb for employees working less than 4 months is 1 week severance pay per 1 month of employment, but this is completely optional and at the discretion of the employer. The labor office cannot force an employer to pay severance pay for an employee of less than 4 months duration, but it almost guarantees a decision in the employer's favor if the disgruntled employee ever tries to take the employer to the Labor Department for whatever reason.

IN CONCLUSION:

My advice to you from the senior management perspective is to get this employee off your payroll immediately. Be aware that maybe one or two of the other staff may resign immediately with her, but see that as a bonus and not worry too much. After all, it is better to have all the cancer removed in one go than to risk leaving part of it behind which can teach bad habits to others. It will also serve as a "wake-up call" and a "shot across the bow" warning to all the other office staff who started to gang up with her, that this type of action will not be tolerated. I would urge you to consult with your lawyer about her termination, and not worry about recording the calls.

That being said, you should learn from this lesson, and put in place a system of recording all communications with senior management and supervisors. As listed above, it is very easy to record telephone conversations and mobilephone conversations nowadays. Make it part of your corporate governance - it should be mandatory for NGOs in any case.

Resist the advice above relating to sending emails to get her to confirm what she said. Unless you are exceptionally careful with your wording, you will very quickly find yourself caught up in entrapment.

I trust that this will steer you in the right direction, and apologize if any of the previous posters feel that I may have trodden on their toes.

Telecom66

You, my friend, were the reason I wrote in this forum

What you wrote confirmed what the lawyer said to us this afternoon (I am glad to have second source confirming what he said). Additionally, you presented some practical ideas that we have not explored yet with the lawyer.

I really appreciate the time and energy you spent writing this. Thank you!

Dear Spartans,

You are welcome my friend. Having done a lot of consulting work with NGOs I can appreciate your pain and frustration.

I'm here to tell you that we create the environment to make things happen - things don't just happen by themselves. When it looks right, sounds right, and feels right, it means that it is right.

I am glad that your lawyer confirmed what I said, and not that I confirmed what your lawyer said

Feel free to send me a PM if you require any assistance, or send an e-mail to my username at Gmail.

18 years of working with Thailand and its administration hierarchy, and yet I am one of the few who still has nothing but positives to say about working in Thailand, and the benefits and pleasures that come from doing things the right way the first time.

To your continued success my friend,

Telecom 66

Edited May 31, 2013 by Telecom66

[Telecom66]

Still feel shocked to know that even in this country we could be victims of our staff.

I actually always managed to get rid of the cancer without paying anything in my home country and can't imagine that I would have to pay anything here.

She is a bxtch so be a bxtch yourself and make her life as hell, she will leave like anybody else would do anywhere in the world, and even easier here because she knows that she will find a job the next day.

Of course this is not the right way to do, but it's mine and it always works.

Hello Bangkokstick,

The only reason that your reasoning would fail for the original poster, is because he clearly stated that the staff member belongs to a very influential family. As the original poster is tasked with running an NGO, this could spell disaster very quickly.

While I agree that you think your approach would work effectively, I would add that cultural differences means that a slightly more delicate touch is required. Remember that we are just guests in their country, and there is really no reason for us to be a [female dog] to them, because they could so quickly turn on you.

Remember that in Thailand, social justice is the best justice of all, because it never requires police involvement.

A calm and calculated approach will always win, as long as both parties feel that the outcome is fair.

Have a great evening.

Telecom 66

Edited May 31, 2013 by Telecom66

[Globeman]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

the first consultation with pretty much any lawyer is free....

[Globeman]

I'm afraid I agree with the other posters on here. Cut your losses and pay the money.

No Court in any land would accept evidence gained by you intruding on a phone call. The authorities in some countries like the UK, can bug a phone and listen to its a phone call, but even they cannot use it in a Court of Law.

Do you really a think that a Non-Thai immigrant recording an Thai born employees phone conversation would be admissible in a Thai Court. I can save you lawyers fees straightaway. NO CHANCE !!!

In fact, they would probably arrest you for privacy related intrusion crime and you would spend a long time in a small space.

Drop it Son, pay the money and be careful who you hire next time.

Sorry, but that is nonsense... This supposition that a farang never beats a Thai in court is simply not true - especially when the Thai is not well connected.

It is okay to tap company phones and read emails sent and received on the company account. And don't worry about it being admissible in a court of law - you use it to confront the employee if it does indeed catch her lying. Don't fire her, because she'll simply disappear the next day. Would you imagine that the average Thai person working in an office knows anything about the law?

Unlike the poster above, I speak from experience, not a persecution complex. I have been through similar situations as an employer more than once. (I mean, come on - send you to jail for privacy intrusion? Dream on...)

Read up on the labour laws at the website of Tilleke & Gibbens, a Farang-Thai law firm that has been working here for decades - not cheap, but very good, and their website info is free. And if need be, you can go in for an initial free consultation, during which they will probably tell you what you need to know.

[Globeman]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Wow... clever you.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Globeman

[Globeman]

Also to take into consideration, is the OP`s business completely legal and above board?

I mean, not included as a prohibited profession for farangs? Is the OP an official registered director or owner of the company? Work permits? Pays taxes? The employees are registered employees of the company and so on?

If the OP`s company is not absolutely squeaky clean, than any disputes with employees could prove disastrous.

I have noticed that the OP has taken a powder and gone quite. I usually do have a knack of ending threads with my direct questions. Be interesting to see if the OP response to any of my questions. They normally don`t when these issues arise.

Hi, yeah. It is legal and above board. Not a prohibited profession for farang either. Work permits, taxes and everything is okay. We took extra measure in these and learned hard in the past. It is a growing NGO, so some governance structure is problematic but no legal issues in the organization.

But I agree with you. If we have to go to court, there always a chance where minor issues that were overlooked can be disastrous.

>He just posted 25 minutes ago - how is that "taking a powder" (whatever that means), exactly? I think that if the OP thinks he is going to get out of this without paying, he is foolish. Either separation pay, or lawyer fees - one way or another - he is going to pay.

Correct. Not "taking a powder"...never heard that reference before actually. I think it is not only about avoiding paying separation pay, but also to set up example to other employees that they cannot just declined to do their work and get separation pays. But yes, it seems like in this situation, it is going to be a lawyer fee.

I gather what you mean by separation pay, is actually Severance pay. Same thing I suppose.

There is employee termination without cause and employee termination with cause and now you have explained, I fully understand why you are seeking some evidence against this employee.

If you feel that you have just cause to sack the said employment, that can also include having an attitude problem and poor working performance, you may have no need to pay severance pay.

Your problem is that you are placing yourself into a very precarious situation if each time you have unsuitable staff members, you are afraid to sack them, and there will be more of her sort in the future, I speak from experience, trust me on this one.

My advice is, sack this employee and do not offer any separation pay, on the grounds that the said employee has an attitude problem, poor working performance and is disruptive to the smooth running of the company for reasons you have already mentioned.

If you permit these sorts of staff behaviour to continue, show fear and pay monies in order to rid the company of unsuitable staff members, then your company will fail to be progressive and other staff members will also try it on.

Whatever you decide has to be up to your own discretion, but that’s my advice for what it`s worth.

Amazing... no matter how much you get slapped down, you just keep coming back with bad advice.

[Giorgio Ciotti]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

There's a great Android program that I use on my galaxy s2 ---it's called Total Recall --- you can get a hold of it on the play store thing from google -- it's great for recording -- once people hear their voices, it doesn't really matter whether it's legal or not, they know their days are over.

[F4UCorsair]

Surely you can implement the sequence of warnings about work standards? It's three strikes and you're out under most industrial systems. I'm not familiar with Thailands industrial laws, but that's a normal process in many countries.

You may find that once she's on notice she'll leave of her own accord, and that often happens.

[Telecom66]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

There's a great Android program that I use on my galaxy s2 ---it's called Total Recall --- you can get a hold of it on the play store thing from google -- it's great for recording -- once people hear their voices, it doesn't really matter whether it's legal or not, they know their days are over.

Hello Giorgio,

I completely agree with you that as soon as people hear that you have a recording of their voice, that they start to panic about what is to follow.

That being said, the recording MUST BE OBTAINED LEGALLY and within the strict confines of the law.

Get it right and it is a very strong tool, but get it wrong and you will find yourself in a very bad position very very quickly.

As the original poster heads an NGO, the only option is to do it by the book.

Have a Great Day Giorgio!!

Telecom 66

Edited June 1, 2013 by Telecom66

[cheeryble]

Thanks Globeman for the Tilleke and Gibbens link indeed they have a very useful PDF of Thai Law basics.

In it I read

"When there is termination without cause, it is compulsory that the employer give a written notice and make severance payment to the employee "

It says "give notice AND make severance pay".

Does this mean you pay the "severance pay" like normal pay during the notice period, but have to pay the severance pay regardless if you want them to leave immediately? Surely one doesn't double-pay?

[Telecom66]

Thanks Globeman for the Tilleke and Gibbens link indeed they have a very useful PDF of Thai Law basics.

In it I read

"When there is termination without cause, it is compulsory that the employer give a written notice and make severance payment to the employee "

It says "give notice AND make severance pay".

Does this mean you pay the "severance pay" like normal pay during the notice period, but have to pay the severance pay regardless if you want them to leave immediately? Surely one doesn't double-pay?

Hello Cheeryble,

Severance pay is paid only once the staff member leaves the premises, or transferred to their account later if there is any deductions or adjustments that may be required. It is not paid twice.

The Labor Department has very clear guidelines in place that help both parties understand their responsibilities and entitlements in terminations.

Best business practice: Get Everything In Writing AND Provide Everything In Writing!!

Have a Great Day Cheeryble!!

Telecom 66

[Telecom66]

Surely you can implement the sequence of warnings about work standards? It's three strikes and you're out under most industrial systems. I'm not familiar with Thailands industrial laws, but that's a normal process in many countries.

You may find that once she's on notice she'll leave of her own accord, and that often happens.

Hello F4UCorsair,

Thailand has a similar system:

1. 1 x Verbal warning (best done in private but in front of a senior manager as a witness)

2. 1 x Written warning (make 2 copies which has a place for both employer and employee to sign : you keep 1 and they get 1)

3. 1 x Termination and severance pay.

However, there are cultural differences that come into play here that makes a delicate touch the best course of action.

The original poster has identified that her performance is not his biggest issue, but that the big issue he has is the influence she has over the workflow and other staff who respond to the importance of her influential family. She will not leave of her own accord as she perceives that she is the most important employee in his organization, so it will require termination to remove her from the organization.

Have a Great Day F4UCorsair!!

Telecom 66

Edited June 1, 2013 by Telecom66

[indyuk]

Why don't you call a lawyer and ask them?

Surely they will know the law in Thailand a lot better than non Thai lawyers?

Just my thoughts.

Or, just sack the girl and save yourself the hassle, if you're that sure she's lying then no problems,

Or get a friend/ secret squirrel to call with specific questions and then you know what the answers are and what she had said,

Pretty simple in my eyes.

The idea that you might be able to punish a Thai for lying seems fanciful to me.

Edited June 1, 2013 by indyuk

[Buckeye21]

Change her hours, try to avoid letting her work with any friends, make her job miserable and driver her out.

She may just stop showing up for work after she gets her pay. Happened all the time when I was working with Thai's, the owner would make their lives miserable and it was her way of getting them to leave. She made it so bad for some staff they didn't even wait for the next pay.

[BlackJack]

how can you tell if a Thai girl is lying = her mouth is moving

also always leave a paper trail

always

[DeeMaiDee]

I believe three official warning letters to the miscreant and they can be terminated without severance pay but check conditions of this with a lawyer.

[Telecom66]

I believe three official warning letters to the miscreant and they can be terminated without severance pay but check conditions of this with a lawyer.

Hello DeeMaiDee,

There is NO written 3 letter requirement. Current Labor Department guidelines are:

1. 1 x Verbal warning (best done in private but in front of a senior manager as a witness)

2. 1 x Written warning (make 2 copies which has a place for both employer and employee to sign : you keep 1 and they get 1)

3. 1 x Termination and severance pay.

What is written in the brackets are my person recommendation as a consultant to ensure body of proof.

Have a Great Day DeeMaiDee!!

Telecom 66

[Telecom66]

Change her hours, try to avoid letting her work with any friends, make her job miserable and driver her out.

She may just stop showing up for work after she gets her pay. Happened all the time when I was working with Thai's, the owner would make their lives miserable and it was her way of getting them to leave. She made it so bad for some staff they didn't even wait for the next pay.

Hello Buckeye21,

There are cultural differences that come into play here that makes a delicate touch the best course of action.

The original poster has identified that her performance is not his

biggest issue, but that the big issue he has is the influence she has

over the workflow and other staff who respond to the importance of her

influential family. She will not leave of her own accord as she perceives that she is the most important employee in his organization, so it will require termination to remove her from the organization.

Remove emotion from the equation. Deal with it humanely and without prejudice regardless of her actions. If you take the high ground then other staff will respect you. Take the low road and you will either empty the office, or they will aall turn against you. There are always options you can impliment that result in a win-win even if your initial desire is to seek revenge. Resist the temptation.

Have a Great Day Buckeye21!!

Telecom 66

Edited June 1, 2013 by Telecom66