Recording Phone Call - Legal/illegal

[Telecom66]

how can you tell if a Thai girl is lying = her mouth is moving

also always leave a paper trail

always

Dear BlackJack,

Completely unfair and inaccurate generalization about Thai women.

I do, however, completely agree with the advice to leave a paper trail in business. It is imperative to cover your butt legally at all times. Business is not about emotion.

Have a Great Day BlackJack!!

Telecom 66

[Telecom66]

Why don't you call a lawyer and ask them?

Surely they will know the law in Thailand a lot better than non Thai lawyers?

Just my thoughts.

Or, just sack the girl and save yourself the hassle, if you're that sure she's lying then no problems,

Or get a friend/ secret squirrel to call with specific questions and then you know what the answers are and what she had said,

Pretty simple in my eyes.

The idea that you might be able to punish a Thai for lying seems fanciful to me.

Dear Indyuk,

Completely untrue.

Thai Labor Laws are very well defined and the Labor Office is very direct, honest, and thorough.

Follow their guidelines and you have no problem in proving a case against a Thai employee and a legal foreign empolyee equally. The key word in the previous sentence is EQUALLY. Thai Labor Laws do not descriminate against nationality - it is purely Employer against Employee in very legally defined criteria.

It is fairer here than it is in our own countries.

Have a Great Day Indyuk!!

Telecom 66

Edited June 1, 2013 by Telecom66

[GottaGo]

Why don't you call a lawyer and ask them?

Surely they will know the law in Thailand a lot better than non Thai lawyers?

Just my thoughts.

Or, just sack the girl and save yourself the hassle, if you're that sure she's lying then no problems,

Or get a friend/ secret squirrel to call with specific questions and then you know what the answers are and what she had said,

Pretty simple in my eyes.

The idea that you might be able to punish a Thai for lying seems fanciful to me.

Dear Indyuk,

Completely untrue.

Thai Labor Laws are very well defined and the Labor Office is very direct, honest, and thorough.

Follow their guidelines and you have no problem in proving a case against a Thai employee and a legal foreign nation equally. The key word in the previous is EQUALLY. Thai Labor Laws do not descriminate against nationality - it is purely Employer against Employee in very legally defined criteria.

It is fairer here than it is in our own countries.

Have a Great Day Indyuk!!

Telecom 66

Agree with this - the Labor Court is very very pro-employee, but within that context is also very very fair, does not take the usual "discretionary power" based on wealth, family influence political issues etc

I only wish they had such good employee protections back home!

In this case my advice is to follow the letter of the law, but rather than publicly causing her to lose face, interview her in private letting her know she's being terminated without going into details, letting her know she's getting her three months' severance pay plus an extra month in lieu of proper advance notice, and most importantly giving her the option of telling everyone she's quitting rather than being fired, you're happy to go along with whatever story she'd like to make up within reason, in exchange for her not badmouthing management or otherwise causing problems with the remaining staff.

Ideally effective immediately - do this at the end of the day, asking her to stay behind after others have left, she clears out her stuff and and goes then and there, lock out her computer logins and take care of other security issues.

Paying an attorney experienced in Labor Court issues to advise, perhaps a severance notice plus separate optional non-disclosure agreement, shouldn't cost more than THB 10,000.

Don't worry about wrongful termination, even if you lost the case the penalties are trivial, as long as the notice+severance were handled properly.

I'm betting she'll take the face-saving quitting story option, best all around, be sincere about not telling anyone she was fired, her family and friends need never know.

[Mudcrab]

Thanks for the advices. I think we're going to need a lawyer. We're an NGO, and would need to manage our money tight. Her 3 months pay would be able to support some of our ground activities.

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

The strange thing is that Thailand labour law still require us to pay separation pays if the termination of contract is due to her lack of performance.

Anyways, thanks.

You need to undertake a course in management. There are many available but all follow the same basic principles.

1 identify underperformance

2 agree on a plan to address this..(within time frame)

Then recognise the performance has:

a) improved or

not improved

if the performance has improved or stabilised.......then work with this.

If not ...dismissal could be only other option

.

But give the person every opportunity to improve.... you don't know the situation facing people outside work and it can be varied and many.

Do not forget you hired this person for whatever qualities were important to you at the time.

Has that changed?

I think you must have missed what the OP said:-

The thing is that her performance has been declining up to a point where she basically declined to work and intentionally delay her work process and influence other team member's work . And then she started to lie on what she discussed with her direct supervisor over the phones and what she described in emails. This happened repeatedly and created a lot of work-related problem.

Now you are saying that the OP who is the Manager, needs to take a course in Management of staff.

It would appear that this is indeed required.

There are managers the boss) and there are managers (who can manage-there is a difference!).

It sounds like this person is a "boss".

A good manager would never have allowed the situation to deteriorate this far, particularly to the level where other employees are being affected.

[GottaGo]

Change her hours, try to avoid letting her work with any friends, make her job miserable and driver her out.

She may just stop showing up for work after she gets her pay. Happened all the time when I was working with Thai's, the owner would make their lives miserable and it was her way of getting them to leave. She made it so bad for some staff they didn't even wait for the next pay.

This is indeed "the Thai way" to avoid having to pay the required severance.

Only worth doing if employee morale is not important to your operations.

Doesn't seem to apply here, since that's the problem he's trying to fix.

Edited June 1, 2013 by GottaGo

[F4UCorsair]

Change her hours, try to avoid letting her work with any friends, make her job miserable and driver her out.

She may just stop showing up for work after she gets her pay. Happened all the time when I was working with Thai's, the owner would make their lives miserable and it was her way of getting them to leave. She made it so bad for some staff they didn't even wait for the next pay.

I don't know if that will work or not, but I'll relate an interesting story, in a similar vein, about Australian politics.

The bureaucrat husband of female premier of one of the states was re-signed on a huge contract a few months before the election in which the premier's party was about to cop a pasting. It was huge, almost half a million $$ a year, significantly more than his previous contract, and she thought that the incoming premier/party would fire him and pay out the 5 year contract.

The election was held, and the inevitable occurred, the government was changed, and the previous government copped such a hiding it was relegated to 'minor party' status, not winning enough seats to qualify for 'major party' status.

The new premier was asked about the former premier's husband soon after taking office, and said that he was a valuable member of the bureaucratic team, doing a good job, so would stay, but a few months later he had quit. He was reassigned to a menial job, way below his skill and intellect, licking envelopes in a tiny office (or similar) and it drove him mad. He resigned, and no payout was required.

There are ways.

[BlackJack]

how can you tell if a Thai girl is lying = her mouth is moving

also always leave a paper trail

always

Dear BlackJack,

Completely unfair and inaccurate generalization about Thai women.

I do, however, completely agree with the advice to leave a paper trail in business. It is imperative to cover your butt legally at all times. Business is not about emotion.

Have a Great Day BlackJack!!

Telecom 66

I have lived here for 14 years

my GF does legal work and I assist with the English translations

I have seen it all and I am surprised with each case how inventive the Thais are

I have helped farangs get on planes, as they have been relieved of all possessions by their loving partners, and cant afford the fare home

I have helplessly watched as farangs get fleeced

I have never met one Thai that hasnt lied to their loving partner

I have seen car/bike accidents where the Thai's are clearly in the wrong and offer up all kinds of lies to save their skin

Even when caught out red handed I have seen Thais smile and smirk nervously and offer up all sorts of excuses whilst the Judge passes sentence

so based on my experience I stand by my statements

having said that I dont hate the Thai's I love them, thats why I stay here

[cheeryble]

Hey Blackjack

I think you got Telecom in the wrong quote box, it's you right?

Anyway I agree with Telecom that it's a completely unfair characterisation of Thai women (while agreeing it does happen of course, about as often as Thai women get dumped by farang men).

I think Telecom's thrust is that the Thai legal system is not warped in favour of the Thai, that it is even handed.

I agree with him wholeheartedly and have not only seen this happen in the courts, but have been paid four times when Thais have caused accidents involving injury to my car or myself on bicycle, twice with the police aiding payment-by-appointment withholding the lousy driver's license until paid and no expectation for a backhander of any sort.

Edited June 2, 2013 by cheeryble

[GottaGo]

I think Telecom's thrust is that the Thai legal system is not warped in favour of the Thai, that it is even handed.

I completely agree with this about the Labor Court, not sure about all the other courts in general.

And for SURE not true about police in tourist-infested areas, most of the time they do side against the "rich farang".

[ajarnpot]

I expect the time taken and overall costs and hassle will result in it being cheaper just to do the 3 month pay thing.

Let her go, or have a talk, say she ain't suited for this job but help her find another one.

Provide refs to new company she can become a problem for someone else

job done

[jackr]

Sound info from Telecom66 there, though I would be inclined to just dump here and pay the severance; I don't have the patience.

With that, unless one has a massively thick skin or is lucky/studious enough to located those special 1 in a 1,000 people, I could never fathom doing business here that involved bodies plucked from the general public... my nursery days on long passed.

I hope the op gets this sorted with minimal fuss.

[cup-O-coffee]

Speaking from personal experience, it may behoove you to make a visit to the Ministry of Labor, because that is going to be the first place she will go when you sack her for any reason; and this department will be the first (and only more than likely) to contact you and have the power to make your life F.U.B.A.R.).

You don't need to provide any contact information but you should be able to get enough information to know how to proceed with motivating her or taking the necessary steps to rid yourself of of her.

You should also be able to get the required information to be able to do so and forfeit the requirements to pay her any compensation.

If that is going to be uncommonly difficult, then sack her and wait for the Ministry of Labor to contact you with an official case file number. Do not pay her anything until you have an intermediary from the Ministry of Labor and a case number stating everything and leaving out nothing. That way, she will not be able to continue her harassment.

On another thought, you may also get a call from the Ministry of Social Security over her exemptions that were withheld for her to collect unemployment.

Once empowered with this information, go through the steps to set her up for that glorious day.

On a final note, you might consider having an attorney draw up a legal and binding contract that she must sign, which basically states that she agrees that she will not make any false or incriminating statements publicly on the Internet or any other form or else she understands that she will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

That is the best advice I can give you.

Edited June 4, 2013 by cup-O-coffee

[joeaverage]

it is roughly 1 month per yeear.

it is pretty simple really, if she is a liar she is likely doing something else wrong.

catch her, giver the required number of written warnings and sack her.

late, absence without medical certificate etc, 3 and sh is done i believe

[FritsSikkink]

Give her 3 months salary for what, we are not in EU ! Even if she goes to the court (does she have to pay for this ?) and win you will never pay and then end of story. What else can she do ? When employees do not respect me I also do not respect them !

She can go to the labor office for free and they will make you pay.

[FritsSikkink]

If we sack the girl without cause that will stand in court, then we have to pay for 3 months salaries. Don't wanna give her that. So need an evidence. Figure probably I'll try this forum first in case others had similar experience, before calling a lawyer. Thanks, man.

And it is a month severance per month of employment

No it is not.

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/images/jpg/01.pdf

Edited June 4, 2013 by FritsSikkink

[muythai2013]

create a new role for in the company cleaning the bathrooms, make it a full time position so she is in there all day everyday.

don't provide the correct equipment to do the job and crap everywhere when you use the toilet, she will get tired of it soon enough.

Make a t shirt that says chief bathroom cleaner, that's her new uniform, send her on very regular trips down to the busiest regions to buy coffee and things in her nice new uniform.

Edited June 4, 2013 by muythai2013

[sunlong]

The whole reason he wants to get rid of her is the fact that she is a high-status person fomenting poor morale in the office.

Much better to get her out as quickly as possible, but in such a way that she DOESN'T lose face, which would only cause her to create more problems, maybe even after leaving.

Just pay her off, no more than what's required but no stupid Thai-style shenanigans.

In this case my advice is to follow the letter of the law, but rather than publicly causing her to lose face, interview her in private letting her know she's being terminated without going into details, letting her know she's getting her three months' severance pay plus an extra month in lieu of proper advance notice, and most importantly giving her the option of telling everyone she's quitting rather than being fired, you're happy to go along with whatever story she'd like to make up within reason, in exchange for her not badmouthing management or otherwise causing problems with the remaining staff.

Ideally effective immediately - do this at the end of the day, asking her to stay behind after others have left, she clears out her stuff and and goes then and there, lock out her computer logins and take care of other security issues.

Paying an attorney experienced in Labor Court issues to advise, perhaps a severance notice plus separate optional non-disclosure agreement, shouldn't cost more than THB 10,000.

Don't worry about wrongful termination, even if you lost the case the penalties are trivial, as long as the notice+severance were handled properly.

I'm betting she'll take the face-saving quitting story option, best all around, be sincere about not telling anyone she was fired, her family and friends need never know.

^

^ What he said

Edited June 4, 2013 by sunlong

[ABCer]

Sorry to be a pain, but this is one more strike against Thailand. If the workers are a protected species who wants to employ them?

There must be a balance in Gov't caring for Business and for workers. Now I understand why so many employers to date prefer Cambodia/Lao/Burma as labour source.

And it seems Thai workers do not mind much sitting on their hands...

I didn't say all Thais!!!

[OZEMADE]

I hope this wasn't the guy everyone was giving the advice to. His driver killed him after he sacked the drivers girlfriend.

The chauffeur of missing businessman Ekkayuth Anchanbutr admitted to his murder last night, former police spokesman Pol Lt General Prawut Thavornsiri, said on his Twitter account.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Driver-confesses-having-killed-Akeyuth-INN-30208093.html

Edited June 12, 2013 by OZEMADE

[Cluey]

Sorry to be a pain, but this is one more strike against Thailand. If the workers are a protected species who wants to employ them? There must be a balance in Gov't caring for Business and for workers. Now I understand why so many employers to date prefer Cambodia/Lao/Burma as labour source.

-

Actually it's just a matter of knowing the laws where you're doing business and factoring them into your practices and cost models.

In this case I think the laws' very fair, when you terminate someone a little severance pay is due. If you've employed them for a long time they are due more severance. If someone isn't working out well, determine that early on and put in a good effort to bring them up to snuff or let them go early on before the severance grows too big.